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John_B #1455090 06/12/10 12:00 PM
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I thought it was George Bernard Shaw......

Gooddog #1455128 06/12/10 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by gooddog
I mentioned elsewhere that I recently had an opportunity to play Bach on an organ. My efforts to avoid the pedal, finger pedal and stick to the nuances in the score really paid off. Unlike on the piano, the sustained notes continued to play and sounded fantastic to my ears. Had I depended more on the pedal, I don't know if I would have been able to pull this off.


In a good hall, the piano can do the same thing. It's just not apparent to the performer.

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Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by AngelinaPogorelich
Didn't Bach prefer the Clavichord to the harpsichord anyway?

(god do I hate harpsichord haha)


He may have personally liked playing the clavichord the most, but that doesn't mean he was writing with it in mind when composing any specific work, does it? After all, most clavichords are so quiet that they just don't work in public performance. Bach didn't write any clavichord concertos, after all.


Yes but music back then wasn't really "performed" (especially not like today), it was more just played for common friends. In which case the clavichord would really work.

How would you explain why he wrote "to be played with a cantabile sound" on his inventions? (was it the inventions.. or WTCs? Forgot) We all know the harpsichord does not do anything like that.



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Bach wrote "most of all to achieve a cantabile manner of playing" in his 1723 edition of the Inventions and Sinfonias as part of his intentions in publishing the works. It is difficult to believe, knowing that Bach composed for harpsichord and clavichord, that he only meant this in reference to performance on a clavichord without making that specific.
It is perfectly possible to achieve cantabile with a harpsichord. I have done it for decades and if you listen to any half decent harpsichordist you will hear this.
Pianos and harpsichords make different sounds, as do oboes and clarinets etc.

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How is it possible to achieve cantabile on a harpsichord? It's not.. You can't do dynamics on harpsichord, unless of course there's different keyboards of it.



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wr #1455173 06/12/10 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by AngelinaPogorelich
Didn't Bach prefer the Clavichord to the harpsichord anyway?

(god do I hate harpsichord haha)


He may have personally liked playing the clavichord the most, but that doesn't mean he was writing with it in mind when composing any specific work, does it? After all, most clavichords are so quiet that they just don't work in public performance. Bach didn't write any clavichord concertos, after all.


You're right, he wrote KEYBOARD concertos, thus meaning they're not relegated to the harpsichord.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

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Originally Posted by AngelinaPogorelich
How is it possible to achieve cantabile on a harpsichord? It's not.. You can't do dynamics on harpsichord, unless of course there's different keyboards of it.


Well, it's certainly not the "cantabile" that we think of in regard to the piano, but it is possible in the way you shape a phrase and the way you articulate and the way you attend to the rise and fall of the line. It's a great deal more work to play the harpsichord (and early pianofortes) well than most think.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

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stores #1455199 06/12/10 03:18 PM
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How do you shape on a harpsichord?



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Originally Posted by AngelinaPogorelich

Yes but music back then wasn't really "performed" (especially not like today), it was more just played for common friends. In which case the clavichord would really work.


Whilst I am sure there was a lot of domestic music making (for which the clavichord would be ideal) I don't think it right to say there were no 'performances' for larger audiences. After all, in Leipzig, there were concerts at Zimmerman's Coffee House and other venues.

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John_B #1455226 06/12/10 04:27 PM
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For Bach, pedaling depends on the piece. For some faster pieces, I don't pedal at all. For some others with chords, I pedal generously, with half pedal or flutter pedal when necessary. The D Major Fugue from WTC-II, for example, would call for lots of pedaling.


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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
The D Major Fugue from WTC-II, for example, would call for lots of pedaling.


It would? I actually just finished playing that fugue and see no need for lots of pedal, nor is there a need for LOTS of pedal in any of the WTC.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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stores #1455254 06/12/10 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by stores
I actually just finished playing that fugue and see no need for lots of pedal, nor is there a need for LOTS of pedal in any of the WTC.


What about the E minor Prelude in WTC-I? B-flat minor Prelude in WTC-I? And, of course, the most overpedaled piece ever: The C Major Prelude in WTC-I.


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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by stores
I actually just finished playing that fugue and see no need for lots of pedal, nor is there a need for LOTS of pedal in any of the WTC.


What about the E minor Prelude in WTC-I? B-flat minor Prelude in WTC-I? And, of course, the most overpedaled piece ever: The C Major Prelude in WTC-I.


What about them? There's no need for pedal in any of them, as I said before.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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stores #1455281 06/12/10 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by stores
I actually just finished playing that fugue and see no need for lots of pedal, nor is there a need for LOTS of pedal in any of the WTC.


What about the E minor Prelude in WTC-I? B-flat minor Prelude in WTC-I? And, of course, the most overpedaled piece ever: The C Major Prelude in WTC-I.


What about them? There's no need for pedal in any of them, as I said before.
Agree!!


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Originally Posted by sandalholme
This may appear to be "too expert", but wait until the end of the post. I spent many decades playing Bach on the piano, I then spent two decades playing Bach on the harpsichord. I have performed in public on both instruments. The last decade or so have seen me return exclusively to the piano (couldn't afford 2 high quality instruments) so I now play Bach on the piano having extensively learned how to play him on the hapsichord.
So, I have a deep experience of both. The result is (with one exception), whatever works for your conception of Bach, that particular piece and your instrument. The exception? Part playing. You cannot "bring out" the subject of a fugue - in terms of dynamics - on a harpsichord, only by articulation and intention. So I don't attempt to on the piano. "Intention"? Well, I believe that if we focus on an area of the music - say the appearance of a theme in the bass - it will sound differently to when we just play all the music without that differentiation. Doesn't necessarily have to be "brought out" dynamically. Fugue subjects don't have to shout out their appearance.
Basically, know the tools - your instrument, your technique, your perception of the work, your ears - and produce what you want to in whatever way you can. We realise Bach on the piano, particularly the modern grand, he did not write for it. (Unlike Beethoven, who probably did have a vision of instruments far more powerful than the ones he wrote for.) So employ your resources and enjoy the results.


Amen!

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Originally Posted by sandalholme
This may appear to be "too expert", but wait until the end of the post. I spent many decades playing Bach on the piano, I then spent two decades playing Bach on the harpsichord. I have performed in public on both instruments. The last decade or so have seen me return exclusively to the piano (couldn't afford 2 high quality instruments) so I now play Bach on the piano having extensively learned how to play him on the hapsichord.
So, I have a deep experience of both. The result is (with one exception), whatever works for your conception of Bach, that particular piece and your instrument. The exception? Part playing. You cannot "bring out" the subject of a fugue - in terms of dynamics - on a harpsichord, only by articulation and intention. So I don't attempt to on the piano. "Intention"? Well, I believe that if we focus on an area of the music - say the appearance of a theme in the bass - it will sound differently to when we just play all the music without that differentiation. Doesn't necessarily have to be "brought out" dynamically. Fugue subjects don't have to shout out their appearance.
Basically, know the tools - your instrument, your technique, your perception of the work, your ears - and produce what you want to in whatever way you can. We realise Bach on the piano, particularly the modern grand, he did not write for it. (Unlike Beethoven, who probably did have a vision of instruments far more powerful than the ones he wrote for.) So employ your resources and enjoy the results.


No, it doesn't appear "expert" at all...not to worry. I have a great deal of experience on both instruments as well and you make some good points until you begin to speak about voicing...after that I stopped paying attention.



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whilst I am no pro harpsichordist, it is a MUCH more complex form of playing than traditional pianos. There are ways to dynamically change it, to make it "sing" cantabile, that people cant understand unless they try it themselves.

Its not just note on- note off forte. Its quite flexible.


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stores #1455578 06/13/10 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by AngelinaPogorelich
Didn't Bach prefer the Clavichord to the harpsichord anyway?

(god do I hate harpsichord haha)


He may have personally liked playing the clavichord the most, but that doesn't mean he was writing with it in mind when composing any specific work, does it? After all, most clavichords are so quiet that they just don't work in public performance. Bach didn't write any clavichord concertos, after all.


You're right, he wrote KEYBOARD concertos, thus meaning they're not relegated to the harpsichord.


I don't know what the source material for them actually indicates, if anything, nor whether it is the same for each one, but they do seem to be called "harpsichord concertos" quite often. Even the entry on Bach's concertos in Grove refers to them in that way, rather than using the generic "keyboard".

Regardless of nomenclature, is there any doubt that when they were played in public by Bach and his kids, they were in fact performed on harpsichord(s)?

wr #1455598 06/13/10 08:30 AM
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Yes but does that mean he liked the harpsichord more?



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I have no objection to anyone playing Bach with pedal. A little or a lot of it, to each his own.

However, in my view anyone who has not thoroughly studied Bach without using the pedal at all is necessarily lacking important elements in his technique and in his understanding of this music.

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