Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Good Morning, Hello and my first post

Hello folks,

I live and work In perth Western Australia, I am a professional Woodwind and Brass repairer who on many occasions has been asked to tune pianos and has resisted the urge for a long time, however the demand is to the point that even the local papers run advertisements about the lack of professional tuners here in this state

So I am adventuring into the art of piano tuning at my own peril

Ive ordered a book Piano Servicing, Tuning, And Rebuilding: For The Professional, The Student, The Hobbyist by Arthur Reblitz, Ive also ordered a set of tuning tools from piano world. Ive still to order a tool set (recommendations)

I intend to purchase a few cheap pianos to start with and work on them, In my shop I have at my disposal cnc lathes, cnc routers, cnc mills, as well as dedicated tool grinders and a miriad of other equipment, what I lack is the knwoledge and experience on pianos. Can anyone also recommend some online sources for information and training

Hello!

One major goal of the Piano Technicians Guild is to help train technicians. Here's a place to get started:
http://ptg.org/becomingATech.php

Although it's a US organization, we have international members. There's also an international association.

--Cy--

Hi,

Check out Randy Potters school of piano technology.

Anson Everitt
ptg associate

Welcome Simso - glad to see another multi-faceted tech... I started out with pianos, then woodwinds which got me a job at a performing arts school. I've had to learn brass, strings and basic electronics here!

Since you are already skilled with tools and your hands, the mechanical part should come pretty quickly. Study some action models to see how everything interacts. The tuning may be the hurdle - the aural listening skills you already have will be great for expanding the central octave out to the ends. The temperament? Unless you are committed to learning the aural approach, I'd recommend a good Electronic tuning device. The stuff we use for bands just doesn't make the grade for piano work. As you "dig in" just come back to ask questions - there are a lot of good people here.

Ron Koval
chicagoland

Hope to be amongst "good people here".

Simso hello, if I were you I'd look for a mentor. Say you are lucky, you can enjoy working on pianos all day long.

a.c.

Sorry for the delay,

Information is greatly appreciative. Yes I compleltey agree that the mechanics side for me will be easier, however the art lies in the tuning of which I have no skill for. Hence let the learning begin.
I saw about a month ago a young fella that was being mastered in the art of piano tuning from a very taleneted tuner use his ipod for the frequency comparison, apparently theres an application that you can get that works like an oscillascope, as he tapped away on the key, a line moved across his ipod screen and as soon as the line lined up with the peak of the preselected note he stopped and moved onto the next one, when I asked about it he was understanably very guarded about information.
If anyone know what he was using it would be appreciated,

Still waiting for my first lot of tools and then a pinao to start on. Then let the questions begin

Simso,

Welcome aboard this forum and piano servicing. I like the way you're being sucked into this business, but it's sort of like quicksand--good luck getting out!

Interesting that there are no tuners in Western OZ. Isn't it desert? That can be really hard on pianos.

In the San Francisco metro area there are tons of tuners to service the 5 million or so residents; most of us manage to stay reasonably busy, but traffic can really suck.

Everyone seems to arrive at piano tuning by a different road. We have people for whom it has been a family business for generations, engineers doing it as a second career, former wannabe musicians (this is where I fit in). Tuning is challenging to learn, but it isn't rocket science. There's more to it than meet's the eye-(pod) , however... the ear has to be involved as well.

At the risk of repeating myself on this forum, if you want to learn tuning, you really should learn to tune by ear. Machines are great, but you really need to be able to judge whether your ETD (electronic tuning device) has done a good tuning.

Good luck in your piano career!

Your tuning path depends on .... you!

If mentors are available, that's the easiest way to go.

The Iphone app was probably Tunelab (www.tunelab-world.com), software for windows, pocket pc and smartphones.

Other software based programs:

Verituner (www.veritune.com) pocket pc
Reyburn Cybertuner (www.reyburn.com) windows, mac and pocket pc
Tunic OnlyPure (http://www.piano-stopper.de/html/tunic_onlypure.html)pocket pc

Stand alone machines : Sanderson Accutuner (http://www.accu-tuner.com/)
Verituner (www.veritune.com)

What's distinctive about all of these electronic tuning devices (ETDs) is that they take information from the individual piano to make adjustments to the tuning calculation.

If you don't have a mentor, it is possible to use a machine as a mentor - if you want to learn an aural method of tuning. Personally (I may be the lone proponent...) I think you are better off using a machine - even for only an octave and then expanding that out by ear. What is the most difficult to learn (that first octave) for us is so easy to replicate via machine. Where most of the machines struggle is when it comes to spreading out the octave to the rest of the piano. Guess what? That's the part that comes easiest for humans!

No matter where your path takes us, probably one of us has stumbled along that same trek... ask away!

Ron Koval
chicagoland

Thanks everyone, unfortunatley no local mentors to rely on, I went and picked up an old metal based upright piano today and dove in

To start with I removed the basic mechnanisms to expose all the springs, I then found some of the keys are sticking and through simple fault finiding found the Balance rail key pin had actually created a small indentation left/right in the key, this was causing the key to stick, I removed the indentations ever so gently with a small file and they float freely now, I pulled some of the hammers out bass / mid and treble to see how they work, and readjusted the mechanisms as I put it back together, still dont know what exactly Im doing but the mechanics side of it appears pretty sweet.

My first goal however is all the key tops are at various heights, I found the balance rail punching worn at different amounts, So I intend to order a full set of felts (any supplier recommendations) on top of this the central balance rail is slightly warped, So clearly I will need to use some shims to also compensate for this which I will place under the new felts(joys of woodwind repair) I have thousands of plastic shims in 0.004" increments

One thing I did find on this piano was first a signature something from what I can read James Barrington 1945 15 dunfas st or somnething like that.

The second interesting find was that some springs had been previously broken, no big surprise, but instead of putting a new spring from the adjustment pin down to the low pin and back up to the other adjustment pin, they had simply gone from the adjustment pin down to the bottom pin and tied it off and left the other side missing. Is this normal practice or signs of dodgy workmanship.

Very addicitive and thoroughly enjoyable. Bring on the tuning tools and the book that I ordered

Thankyou for the links ron, I downloaded the one for pocket pc, the wife had a pocket pc she doesnt use becuase the battery went flat and it was dearer for a battery a year ago than for replacement of the whole unit, checked on line today and replacement batterys are only 18 dollars now, so the pocket pc has become a dedicated tuner.

Whilst Im sure the book when it arrives will tell me how, Ive noticed when playing the upright softly some keys make no sound at all, if you hit it firmly it sounds out, the damper felt moves exactly like the other keys but the hammer is not really striking, movement of the action to the wippen is identical to the other working keys, Im assuming it has something to do with the let off screw but unsure, I certainly cannot see anything else that can be adjusted to fix it.

You weren't kidding about diving right in!

The shims we use UNDER the felts are card and paper. (like flutes)

Think of the action "from the ground up". For each key to have the same potential for energy transfer to the string:

1. key backs same range of motion - all those felts and shims...
2. slight lost motion between the lower part of the action and the hammer mechanism. (once you get the book we can use the real terms.) That allows the action to reset after each time.
3. When pressing really slowly through the motion, each hammer will get the same distance to the string before lettting off.

that's the short version. Your problem usually is either:
1 keystick not moving far enough
2 hammers have too far to travel
3 let off too far from the string.

All three of these aspects are adjustable - since you've noticed the random key movement, that's probably a good place to start.

Ron Koval
chicagoland

I have a schematic here, what is the point of the let off, I can see when the action is in use the let off engages the back of the butt section of the hammer and moves the hammer to a point, then at the point the backcheck strikes the catcher. What is the relationship if I may for this mechanism

Interesting observation I just made thanks to your advice, Watching the let off movement during the action, some keys the letoff compleltey clears during the key travel and motion, others it just barely slides clear of the hammer butt bucksin and the ones that are not sounding with soft touching are not releasing the hammer butt at all, on top of this the Backcheck felt is engaging the catcher so Im pretty sure this is whats stopping the soft touch sounds, So clealry this is the issue.

Is there a recommended clearance and motion for the let off, that is, should it release the bucksin compleltey or just let it slide free, what difference does this actually create, also the backcheck Im guessing just bend it back a fraction so it doesnt engage

I should really wait for the book, but the inginuity of this setup has intreged me

Excellent!

Functional upright action steps:

1. Wippen rests on back of key (capstan adjustment on back of key)
2. wippen pushes up on hammer butt (some lost motion needed here to allow jack to slide back under butt when key is up)
3. As key goes through motion, jack heel engages letoff button and releases key before hammer strikes string - a few mm, not too close, but even for all keys.
4. after letoff, key continues down for a few more mm before hitting end range. (aftertouch) Hammer rebounds to engage backcheck.

In your case, there isn't enough:
1. keystick range
or
there's too much
2. hammer travel
for there to be any letoff or aftertouch on those problem keys.

Level the keys by correcting the balance rail paper/card punchings. Set key dip (around 10mm) with the front rail punchings.

Move up from there!

Ron Koval
chicagoland

Simso:

In your situation, yes, jump right in! After all, who taught the first chicken to peck?

The strings (not springs) that were broken and tied off may have been either a wise repair or a sloppy one. If the piano would not be serviced again for many months or years, tying off is an option, especially if the two outside strings are the ones left. But if the piano is in the tuners normal territory, and occasional retuning of the replacement string is practical, then string replacement is the better choice.

But others will have other opinions. Keeping this in mind let me suggest you find an internet mentor, maybe one in Australia. I am worried that too many cooks will spoil the broth in your training. Perhaps this link to the Australian Piano Tuners & Technicians Association can help, especially in finding a part supplier: http://www.aptta.org.au/