BDB and Emmery, since you both seem to be overly concerned about key signatures and what does or does not show EBVT III in it's best light, this will be addressed in a few weeks.

Please stay tuned to this thread for a demonstration of how EBVT III and ET will sound in many different keys.

In fact, please enlighten me as to what keys you would like to hear, and we would be happy to oblige!

I would like to say something about this. I have also been challenged to prove myself by sending in a recording. To some of us who work hard every day doing tuning for a living this is actually laughable, since we work every day in areas where it really matters. There is a lot of sarcasm from your living room warrior crowd towards the professionals on here. What frustrates some of us here is the comparisons of your tunings to what a real professional who proves himself/herself out in the cold hard light of the day every day does. It is one thing to take all day or week in the comfort of your own home to create what you consider the perfect tuning. It is quite another to tune three, four, or five really good, solid and quick pitch raise plus fine tunings throughout different parts of the town or city in a day. This is what we do after we learn to tune. It is a completely different ball game, separate from just nit picking intervals, that do it yourselfer's and beginners just don't understand sometimes. To try to compare yourself or your tuning work to someone like Emmery or BDB is just not a fair comparison. That is what is causing some of this friction between the ET crowd and yours. You guys are picking at these extremely minute differences that really don't last in the real world and you really don't know what the rest is all about. Having said that, I will now say, I'm outta here.

Byronje3, where is the sarcasm from me? I have never posted a negative regarding you hard working professionals. I understand what you do and respect it.

Fyi, it takes me about 4-5 hours to tune my piano...I don't spend all day or all week perfecting my tunings. Secondly, please tell me why, when I tune my piano, it's any less important than what you do on a daily basis, and why is it "laughable"? I work in the music business for a living. I guess, according to you, "where it really matters" is not in my living room, trying to perfect my tuning skills, so I can do my professional work, and enjoy my music. Please, give me a break.

I have had several pro tuners compliment my tuning here on PW, telling me it was better than a lot of pro tuners they know.

What does it take to bring a long a digital recorder, put it atop the piano and make a recording? I don't see the difficulty. Now if one does not have a recorder, that's another matter.

I am not trying to compare my tuning to BDB or Emmerys. Obviously, their tunings would be better, they are the pros, right? They, or you, should not feel threatened in the least by my faulty tunings. The fact that you, the pro tuner, are bringing this up is, at the very least, questionable.

My question to Emmery and BDB was to give us an example of their work, since they are the ones who are criticizing EBVT III, and my tuning, which according to them, throws ET in a bad light, and perhaps even EBVT III. It has nothing to do with comparing their tunings with mine.

"Extremely minute differences" that "really don't last in the real world", I don't think so. Go take a look at the amount of views and replies in this thread, and you tell me if these are extremely minute differences that don't matter in the real world? What world are you in?

I have never criticized any temperament. All I have said is that I did not like some things that I have heard in particular samples.

Fair enough BDB.

I say again, please post some of your work.

I did. Do a search.

Great...just looking up your name now in the search, there are a LOT'S of posts by you. Can you tell me which post has your recordings? Thanks.

Sometime towards the end of January, probably around the 28th. I just reset the link so you can download it again.

files.me.com/bdboakland/17qdqz.mp3

Bach Chromatic Fugue. I have spent too much time on this tonight to figure out how to make that clickable.

Thanks...I was able to dload it.

It's very nice, except for that scratchy sound, I guess due to it being 20 years old? I can still hear through that noise. Just a few of the unisons sounded a bit off to me, otherwise it sounded fine.

Thanks for allowing us to hear your work.

Anyone can hear my work. You just need to buy a ticket.

LOL...Ok...I will be in the SF Bay Area in Aug/Sept..where can I buy a ticket and what to?

I was trying to find an 'ET' tuning I did where the 5th-6th octaves are not too bad and where the unisons are pretty clean. Here are a few that fit that bill.

Carmen Cavallaro playing "La Vie en Rose" on the LX system. This was made in Sept, 2009 using my RCT , OCT 5 stretch.

http://www.box.net/shared/lpb096nef1

Carmen Cavallaro playing "Dancing in the Dark" on the LX http://www.box.net/shared/eb4bmh0uoa

First of all I am not embarrassed, nor will I be, since I'm not listening to something I have no certainty of knowing what it is. Maybe it is on the level, but nobody is sure except the person posting the recordings(if they don't mistakenly mix them up). Secondly, my quoted comment was not a dig at your "pianist" and I was not calling them or your piano's player mechanism a dolt. It was an example of how a similar comparison in a forum can be made into whatever you want it to be, after everyone has commented and you tallied the results.

You ought to re-read what I posted in regards to lack of concern for accuracy. My statement:

"I'm surprised this posting did not raise any eyebrows or ire from anyone participating. It seems to show a lack of concern for accuracy from the same participants."

I was talking about the people who have participated in commenting on the recordings, not you, nor Patrick. If this is an affront to you or Patrick's intelligence because you think I'm talking about you, use that intelligence to get it right, instead of falsely accusing me for something I did not post.

You won't get a posting here of my E.T. tuning by me or a customer of mine because I don't think that is what this forum is for, and judging by the fact that you are the first client of someone in here doing it...people should be asking the question why? Are you paying back a favour? In fact, I don't know of a single tuner ever who was asked by a client if they can record or post their tuning in this forum for any reason. It makes me wonder who it was that wanted this done?

The question about dissonance in some chords was already raised and the answer was from Bill that yes, some chords are more dissonant than others. This by itself makes this temperament useless to me if I don't want this effect or the restrictions it brings with it. It was argued that this can be used by a composer or artist to create tension and then to release it by switching to the less dissonant chords, for effect. For composition, this is already a restriction that E.T. does not have so I have to start looking at this temperament like a wah wah pedal that is stuck in the on position for a guitar...great for a wah wah song but a hindrance to everything else.

A big advantage of E.T is its ability to let you play a piece in any key and NOT have the temperament mess with your ear and mind, giving you dissonance where you don't expect dissonance. Then there is the issue of figuring out a way to resolve it, if the chord progressions of the piece don't naturally lead to the chords that would. Never mind the complications of playing alongside other instruments that are not creating dissonance in those keys, because they are in E.T.

Oh, Byron! Come back, please! I was not done surfing with you!!! Seriously! We need you here! I think you heard something in EBVT III that you, as a pro, can describe. Please don't get ticked off! This is an important discussion that needs objective listeners like you!

--Andy

If "the same participants" was not referring to myself and Patrick, who are participants, along with everyone else who participated, then you should have made that clear in your post. It was not clear at all.

Again, you question my honesty regarding my recordings. They are on the level Emmery, I don't know what else to say.

Who are you to say that I am a client of Bill Bremmer? I am not paying Bill to do any of this. If I were paying him a fee, then I would be his client. So please don't make assumptions about something you know nothing about. "Payback for a favor"...no, this is not a payback for anything. This was my enthusiasm for hearing a new temperament that blew me away and my wanting to share it here on PW. If I did not like EBVT III, I would not have started this thread.

You can go back and look at my postings from the time I joined PW in 2005. I have posted my recordings in the main Piano Forum long before I posted here in the Tech forum.

This was my idea to post my experience with EBVT III in the tech forum, as opposed to another forum, since it's dealing with a 'new' temperament and tuning... and I tune pianos. I have never had one person in this EBVT III thread of over 57,400 views, pro tuner, management, or other, question why I posted this EBVT III thread in the Tech forum...... except you. I have to question your motives here. What is it that raises your dander about my starting this EBVT III thread here?

That's fine, you feel EBVT III is a like "stuck wah wah" guitar pedal, and you don't like the dissonance etc etc etc. LOL...that's actually very funny. You have your opinion, I have mine.

It will be interesting to see if EBVT III can do what you suggest here..... "mess with your ear and mind, giving you dissonance where you don't expect dissonance. Then there is the issue of figuring out a way to resolve it, if the chord progressions of the piece don't naturally lead to the chords that would....... ........Let's see if it completely bewilders the 2 pro pianists that will be at my home to record EBVT III live in a few weeks. If EBVT III can do all those things you suggest, my gosh, they won't be able to play anything worth recording....oh dear.....You know, I should probably tell them to bring some aspirin, in case EBVT III gives them headaches and such. I just hope they can play without too much distraction due to the temperament.

Btw, is there any key you would like to hear EBVT III played in? ET as well? Please let me know. Perhaps after hearing the same piece, played by the same pianist in different keys, it might just temper your disenchantment with EBVT III. Keep an open mind and stay tuned, you might eventually enjoy what you hear.

The problem is this:

There is no way for anyone to verify the validity of ANY recordings posted here unless they have been created and produced using the very same music on the very same machine by an INDEPENDENT THIRD PARTY who has no apparent vested interest in the final outcome.

While I found the recordings mildly interesting, I would not participate in choosing between any of them because of the conflicted parties involved in the process of setting this up. While there may not be an actual conflict, there is the appearance of conflict and this is enough to disqualify the test or comparisons as illegitimate.

We are all familiar with the guessing contests administered by radio programs, sports leagues, charities and such. All of these contests are verified by Price Waterhouse Coopers or Obee & Obee, or some other accounting firm, or similar.

This is not to offend anyone or insult anyone here; this is just how these types of comparison tests are administered. The test answers are made up, sealed and held by another party, or another department of the same firm. Before the test commences I might add....

Of course members can entertain themselves with whatever they would like to. But in the end this can only be viewed as a fun thing; not a really serious comparison.

At one time though, this was an actual technician’s forum, not a forum for posting endless recordings of music for guessing games.......

Hmmm, as someone who has posted the quality of his tunings in an open forum, I'd say Grandpianoman is just as qualified as an "actual technician" as anyone else here. Also, seeing as tuning is the "bread and butter" work for most techs, I'd say this is very topical. What's missing is the representation of any other alternate temperaments - there are probably 4 or 5 that could be sustituted for the EBVT3 without much difference.

Ron Koval
chicagoland

I do not have schedules that far in advance. I could let you know where you could stay and try it yourself.

Grandpianoman, I regarded you and Patrick separate from the "participants" because your the only ones holding the cards asking everyone else to guess whats what. That makes you the controllers/administrators of the test or comparison or whatever you want to call it.

I am still in the dark about your relationship with Bill in this whole thing. You are saying your not his client, so that leaves me wondering why someone would fly 1500 or so miles on his own dime to do a free tuning for you, and what kind of light that puts on your heaps of admiration and praise in your OP/testimonial. If I got a free tune up or repair on my car from a mechanic, I'd be praising him too. I would however refrain from publically commenting on the quality of the service in this situation(regardless of how good it is) because I feel testimonials should not be tainted in such a way. Now if I openly come out and state, "Listen everyone, a mechanic flew half across the country and gave me a FREE tune up and my car has never sounded or ran better" it at least lets people put this in some kind of true perspective.

Maybe you should clarify this for everyone since you come on to this forum and make a testimonial about someones work (or favour)they done for you. And yes, it is one, or the other.
Bear in mind, I don't pay much attention to testimonials from lottery winners, recipients of charity or free products ect...most people I talk to don't either.

BTW, I am not disenchanted with EBVT. I just see it as another specialty temperament along with historical temperaments. I think it has its place somewhere in the scheme of things, Bill thinks that place is where E.T. is...I don't.

Dan, this is not a scientifically controlled study for heavens sake. The Piano world will not live and die based on what people say in the this simple A/B comparison. You make it sound like it should have been some highly sophisticated tightly controlled test..... "INDEPENDENT THIRD PARTY", "no vested interest in the final outcome", "appearance of conflict", "conflicted parties involved", "illegitimate", "the test answers are made up, sealed and held by another party, or another department of the same firm." etc etc. Price Waterhouse Cooper and Obee & Obee???...ROFLOL, You have got to be kidding, but, I don't think you are. You are making this more than it really is, relax a bit, it's not rocket science.

From what I know about piano technicians...among other things, they tune pianos, is that correct? If that is in fact true, then there is no reason why a technician can not present his work in the Technicians forum in the form of sound recordings. In my case, I did this to show the differences between EBVT III and ET. Under the title of "Tecnicians Forum" on the main page of PW is this: "For Piano Tuner-Technicians and for posting technical questions" I would consider myself a piano tuner, having successfully tuned pianos now for some 5 years.

RonTuner, thanks!

BDB...not a problem, will contact you when the time comes.....what do you mean by " where you could stay and try it yourself"?

That is absolutely true, BDB. You make me think through it, and smile, again.

(For your information, everybody, this is not sarcastic or ironic - I think BDB is kinda cool! )

Ron,

if my memory doesn't fail me, besides from ET you tune quite a few UT's yourself? Would you have a chance to post some recordings of that work, in this thread or in a dedicated one?

I think that would bring a nice balance to it all.

I made a friend of mine who just likes to listen to classical music on his stereo to the latest Il Postino, after explaining this EBVT/ET tuning difference. He immediately said A sounds better, B sounds harsher. He listened just on my tiny laptop speakers to the first 10 seconds of each piece.

It seems also to me the difference is obvious, and A is EBVT.

I don't understand all this quibbling here, I thought the goal was just to see if EBVT and ET are actually different enough to be audible. I can clearly hear the difference and got almost all A/B tests right thus far. My only failure was in the Bach B-minor piece. I think the reason was that I liked ET better there because I like B-minor to be harsh sounding.

Emmery, apart from your suspicions can you not hear a clear difference?

One uncertain point remains: GP could it be that the EBVT you tune is just a much better tuning than your ET? In other words do I like EBVT better because your ET tuning is not of the same quality? I don't believe so because I know I personally prefer unequal tunings over ET. That's just my taste. Yet it's possible if the tunings were of equal quality I could no longer tell them apart.

To settle this we should tune your machine tune your piano in EVBT (using my program) and in ET using the same ETD using identical octave settings and compare the results. Or Bill could aurally tune both ET and EBVT but of course everyone will accuse him of deliberately mistuning ET.

Kees

"Controllers and Administrators"??...as I said to Dan, this is not some uber-controlled super scientific study/test. It's a very simple listening exercise, comparing 2 temperaments, nothing more. If I were publishing this in some scientific journal of piano technicians, then perhaps your concerns would be warranted.

You, and others seem to think there is some furtive component to these recordings. There is nothing like that going on here. I think the readers of this thread can make up their own mind as to what is happening here.

I have 'clarified' my relationship with Bill. Why do you feel uncomfortable about my praising Bill Bremmer's work? If you flew 1500 miles and tuned my piano, and did a lousy job, you would not be praised here on PW or anywhere else by me. Bill did a fantastic job, and my recordings prove it, hence my posting his work, and I might add, my work as well, since it was I who used his figures to re-tune my piano in EBVT III.

Your analogy of using "Now if I openly come out and state, "Listen everyone, a mechanic flew half across the country and gave me a FREE tune up and my car has never sounded or ran better" it at least lets people put this in some kind of true perspective."

is not relevant to this thread. It's impossible to have everyone sit in your "tuned" car and see how great it runs etc. However, it is possible for everyone to click on the urls for my recordings.

I am glad you are not "disenchanted" with EBVT III. I and a lot of other people are also not disenchanted with it, in fact, I am very enchanted with it.

Btw, is there any particular key signature you would like to hear EBVT III in?

I'd really like to do that. I'm hoping this summer brings me the time and gear to make this happen. A few of my clients have player systems - I think I can record those, since I don't play at a very high level.

Ron Koval
chicagoland

Ron, that would be great!

Kees, that is exactly what my intention for the the A/B comparison was about.

I think it' time to let everyone know what will be happening July 1-4.

Bill Bremmer will be coming to my home following the PTG Las Vegas convention, along with Patrick Wingren (pppat), who will be at the PTG convention in Las Vegas as well. Joining Bill and Patrick, will be Gregg Punswick, an excellent pianist and friend of Bill's.

Bill is going to further refine the EBVT III tuning on my piano. The plan is to make some recordings. Not only will we have the use of the LX and Ampico playback systems, we will also have Patrick and Gregg as live pianists...as opposed to dead ones.

My digital piano is a Yamaha Disklavier DGT2IIXG. It has a real grand piano action. It has a pretty much 100% accuracy recording feature, plus a transposing feature. What this means is that Gregg and Patrick can be recorded on the Yamaha, then that file can be encoded for the LX and played back on my M&H BB/LX, in any key desired. We can also use the Yamaha for an "ET" recording.

So BDB, Emmery or Dan...if you have a particular key you would like to hear, please let me know...it's possible with a push of a button. In fact, if anyone here has a request for a particular key they would like to hear EBVT III in or ET, please let me know.

I think F# or C# major would be a good test case. ET should have better thirds. Will it also sound better?

Kees

Grandpianoman, I have not yet met a customer who's satisfaction with my work could not have been further influenced or changed by the price I charged. Most people know, free is the best price price you get, and you don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

[quote by Grandpianoman,inside quote by me]

"Your analogy of using "Now if I openly come out and state, "Listen everyone, a mechanic flew half across the country and gave me a FREE tune up and my car has never sounded or ran better" it at least lets people put this in some kind of true perspective."

is not relevant to this thread. It's impossible to have everyone sit in your "tuned" car and see how great it runs etc. However, it is possible for everyone to click on the urls for my recordings."

You are right about them not sitting in my car to see and hear how great it runs but thats not what your doing with your piano either. I could easily video tape my car running well, hook up a diagnostic and film that also as "proof". But is it really the car that was fixed and is that diagnostic hooked up to it, or something else, and is that beautiful purring engine sound recorded off a movie track? Margins widen farther when you introduce a comparison car. Have you never seen the weight loss adverts with the before and after photos. You notice they smile, have better lighting and posture up for the after photo, switch that around and the differences are less noticable. There's a ton of subtle things that can be done in this type of venue. Besides, if someone is trying to solicit public feedback to a fair sample test, you never should prep them with your own praises, and kudos for just the one sample. It taints their impressions before they even hear them.

There is plenty of stuff I've bought into in my life that was based on testimonials and carefully prepared comparisons, much to my dissapointment when I went to use it myself, so pardon my skepticism. I'll just leave it at that. If I ever get my paws on a piano that was tuned in EBVT, I'll give it my own taste test thank you. If my customers start leaving because I can't tune EBVT, I'll take the time to learn and tune it...but I just don't see that happening. Oh well, continue on with your thread and have fun.

Kees, it's possible....although when making the choice between the 2 temperaments, it's better to listen to them through headphones. My computer speakers on my laptop are terrible.

That's one of the reasons Bill is making a return trip, to make any improvements needed to his original EBVT III tuning to my piano, and to be present between recordings to touch up the piano so there won't be any out of tune unisons and those 5th-6th pesky octaves will be tamed.