This is my latest shopping thread! Once again, thanks my mum for driving me around to visit the stores.

So, I visited three stores today. 2 stores sell used Japanese pianos and the last one carries Wendl & Lung. (Feel free to skip the the reports on first two stores. W&L sounds more important.)

So, the first store is having their year end sales and brought in a LOT of grand pianos. There are about 15 of them at least.
I tried Kawai RX1, KG3, KG5, KG6, CA40, CA60 and a few Yamaha G2, G3, C7 etc.
Out of all grand pianos I have tried out, the CA seems to be great, especially the CA60 (which I have tried last time.) A very obedient(?) action in which the layers of Pathetique 2nd Movement are clearly brought out, better than the CA40 and the others just lost out on the action, not to mention their tone isn't very nice.
CA60 has a very warm bass and tone and the CA40 sounds less refined and the bass is not as clear as CA60.
the CA40 seems to be in superb condition, the strings are not rusted and the bridges, soundboards and other parts are very clean. It's 16 years old but are more pricey than the CA60 (21yo).
The dealer claims that it was due to the increase in exchange rate between Japanese Yen and Ringgit.
One thing funny is that I propose that i might want to bring a tech to check out the pianos and the dealer doesn't seem to like the idea. I'll make another thread to discuss about this topic.

So, on my 2nd stores, they brought in grand pianos (3) that has bears only 6 or less digits serial number(at least 35 years old). None of them sound good but they have a new C3 on the floor. New, but bears serial number less than 6 million (meaning 6-7 years old). It performs really nicely but it's nothing important. The attention of this whole thread is about the Wendl & Lung.

Wendl & Lung[/b]
So, I visited the W&L dealer. It was a really warm service. The store is at a location where parking is difficult and the owner gave up his parking slot for our Ford. Too bad they have only 218 and 161 in their showroom.
So, I tried out the 161 first and just a few seconds, I can tell this piano is very great. When compared to a Yamaha GC1 (no offense to any GC1 owner, it's my preference only), anytime over the day I'll choose a W&L 161 over it.
While on a 218, I thought I was playing a concert grand. The bass is very very good (161 is not bad either, for its size). The tone, however, is less refined than the 161 but I guess that' due to voicing or perhaps the 218 is quite new. (161 has a serial number at about 16k but 29k for the 218. It seems the 161 is the display model and has been on the floor for a long time.)
The 218 has an very wide tail and features Abel hammers and Strunz soundboard.
One thing to note is that the showroom is very small and hence all pianos played are loud, but pp can still be achieved.

Comments of several aspects regarding W&L.

Tone: Bit different from Wagner (Hailun). W&L sounds not as thick as Wagner but not as mellow as a Kawai. The tone doesn't sing like a Petrof either. But, (with experience on Bosendorfer recording only), it sounds like a less refined Bosendorfer. The bass is very strong for the size for both 161 and 218. However, the bass of 218 is a bit too strong where the treble is a bit imbalance.

Touch: On both pianos, it seems like the keys can be depressed easily but the touch is not light. After the keys travel some distance, they become a bit heavy. This is not so observable on the 218 (perhaps due to the choice of hammers?).

Appearance: The plate is of Bosendorfer-red and the brand name is shown at the side, even for the 161. The finish is very nice as well.

Price: When compared to a Hailun, it's about 1.5 more expensive for the smaller models but about 20% more expensive than the Hailun for the 218.

Both Hailun and W&L are only available upon order except for the W&L 218 (and perhaps the 161). Wagner is available for most models though but I somehow don't like having Wagner on the fallboard.

Any comments?

This serial number should be last quarter 2007 as a snr 15966 was September 2007.

schwammerl.

If the 218 is very new, that means W&L serial number has moved about 10,000 since last year, and they have only reached about 30,000.

Wow, they sold a lot of pianos last year!

schwammerl,
Any opinions on my comments on the touch and tone? How does your W&L feel and sound?
(oops, you just got an Estonia, isn't it?)

quotes from jinjack
That's a huge difference on the 161. Are you sure you're comparing actual selling prices?


Wide tails are highly prized among certain piano sub-cultures.

Indeed, one can get a Wagner 161 for around 23k I guess but about 30+k for a W&L. Hailun is about 5% more expensive than Wagner.
I quote my price in Ringgit.

tanjinjack,

The fact I do no longer own that W&L 161 does not mean I wouldn't remain having a great respect for this brand and would refrain myself from following future development or giving comments on it on this forum in the future.

I can repeat my personal opinion which I have stated here more than once: within the mid-price segment - up to at least 1.5 times the price of a W&L, size for size - I haven't played yet a grand that can beat the W&L.

The mid price segment competition will have to watch W&L in the e.g. coming 2 years as they might have seen nothing yet.

Would e.g. a dealer have suggested me simply swopping my W&L 161 for a similar sized Yamaha C of Kawai Rx I would have responded: no thank you.

As to commnenting on your findings of tone and touch I cannot compare the W&L with e.g. a Wagner/Hailun as Hailun is not available in Europe. For the W&l:

Tone: the 161 is certainly not short in the low register, the 178 bass being slightly more defined, crispier. If well voiced I find the mid and the highs - up to say keys 77 - 78 very open and singing. Unless you mean by a singing tone for the Petrofs the new Petrof models like Passat, Storm I would not give the older models PIV, P V that same qualification. Overall the W&Ls have perhaps a tone that is more bold than a Kawai.

Touch: with minor regulation work the action can be made as light and responsive as you want it to be. Quite a few tech I have been in contact with in the past were always very impressed with the build quality and the parts used in the action. The action will benefit a lot from simple lubrication: the key pin with e.g. MacLube, the knuckles wit Teflon powder; did it myself a couple of times. As to the feeling of the action becoming heavier when you arrive near the end of the stroke, this could merely be what you almost always feel with any action: the weight of the dampers coming in to play at about 1/2 the key stroke.

schwammerl.

Tanjinjack,

You have posed many questions here, often repeated in new threads, and I have questions for you.

Just what are your pianistic skills? What is your repertoire? At what level are you playing any given piano?

Price is not the only decision. What you hear and feel are.

You have been told this time and time again! You have heard this in so many replies to your postings. I'm beginning to feel that your search for a piano is nothing more than an intellectual puzzle. It seems to be a game and nothing more.

and this from a few days ago

Marty,

Can't you cut the kid a little slack? There are no credentials required here. It's true Jinjack asks lots of questions, but I don't sense that he asks the same ones over and over.

If my kids did as much research as Jinjack before they decided how to spend my money, I'd be thrilled.

Something to bear in mind. Jinjack can't get to many showrooms because there aren't that many where he lives and he depends on his mom for transportation. When he gives a report of a shopping trip, he shares it with us in great detail and then welcomes members' comments and suggestions. I can't imagine I'm the only one who enjoys his reports. If you don't, you can just tune out.

When Jinjack first came on here, he didn't know near what he does now. This forum has been good for him filling in a lot of blanks. That's a good thing, don't you think?

My dad used to say to me all too often: "You've been told over and over again....." But that was when I screwed up. Jinjack hasn't screwed up and you're the only one who's telling him this.

Marty, [/b]tanjin is sharing his enthusiasm for pianos by initiating conversations. Those conversations may help others.

Opinions are the lifeblood of this forum. If you're not interested, please just don't participate in that person's thread(s). Uninteresting threads will die a natural death.

I like to read tanjinjack's piano hunting/shopping experience and I don't think he repeats the questions. He tries to gather more information in choosing the piano he wants with limited budget (his parents money). If you read his previous threads, he passed the ABRSM grade 8 examination.

Tanjinjack, please feel free to post questions although I don't have much experience/knowledge to help you. But if you like the sound/touch of the Wagner, I would suggest to choose it since it is made by Hailun also. Don't worry about the name on the fallboard ! My 2 cents

Regards.

Jinjack,

By my calcuations on a ringgit / USD conversion. the Wagner would be $6400. The Hailun at 5% more would be $7020. The W&L at 30k Ringgit comes to $8300. 30+k Ringgit of course would be higher.

I agree with what FogVilleLad told you earlier that Hailun must have a minimum standard of manufacture to protect its emerging status as a maker. Some things (like the Bosie plate color) are just for product differentiation and not for performance. I also agree with you in that I wouldn't want a house stencil name if I could avoid it.

If you really like that W&L 161, I'd advise you to make an offer of 25k Ringgit for it. It's a floor model. Selling it to you will allow you dealer to get a newer floor model. If he doesn't like your offer, tell him you will order the Hailun for 24300. (You don't have to do it....just tell him that you will. )

One thing I would advise you not to do is to buy any of the old grands from '?Japan?'. When I read the horror stories about piano maintenance on the Adult Beginner thread, I shudder. I think in my own case I would make do with a digital. Japan's climate and home heating is so much different from Malaysia's that I think the good condition of the pianos just imported could deteriorate quickly. Another thing to remember is that grey-market trafficking is not limited to Japan now. A lot of the grey-market pianos being shipped here and there are now coming from China. I wouldn't buy a used grand in Malaysia unless it had spent its whole life in Malaysia. That would be the test of the piano's quality and endurance.

relax .... read it like reading a blogspot
try some mischief, add some contradictry info, mess up and confuse his decision hehe

rejoice with each other, celebrate with a Carlsberg after he finally made a final choice

He could be our next Asia Pianist gran prix winner, don't under estimate his talent.

schwammerl,
Thanks for your opinions on your W&L. I appreciate it a lot.

Marty,
I passed my ABRSM Grade 8 last year and do intend to take piano lessons again, in addition to get a good instrument to practise on. I don't have many classical repertoire, only a few but I have plenty of pop songs or piano transcription/improvisations to try out those pianos, especially for the bass and high trebles.
Hope my answer finds you satisfied.

turandot and others,
Although the 161 performs very well, but I find it a bit small. Somehow, I prefer a 178 or even a 198 more. It seems their showroom is occupied by the 161 and 218 and they will not have rooms for a 178. I don't think they would accept a refundable deposit upon ordering a 178. They just don't have room to keep a 178 if I don't like it.

Also, I find it very hard to look for a tone that I like very much. There's no piano that speaks to me "buy me, buy me. Bring me home."
Do I expect too much in buying a cheaper grand? Should I opt for something that I can live happily and am satisfied with instead of a piano that I am in love with?
If so, I guess the W&L tech (also the owner) maybe able to fulfill my requirement. He is offering very good after sales service to his customers. He said he even flew to East Malaysia to do the tuning/regulation on his products sold to there. It sounds a bit like the MPA of Shigeru.

BTW, how much does a Jansen adjustable leather bench cost? He is offering it to me free if I purchase from him, along with his MPA-like visit and delivery etc.

tanjinjack,

The Jansen adjustable leather bench will be around USD400-500 as in the following link:

http://www.vandaking.com/adjustable-artist-piano-benches.html

Sounds like the W&L is a good deal if your budget allows.

Good luck.

tanjinjack, the WL 178 was recently tested in a blind test by 2 professional pianists for the French piano journal Diapason d´or. The criteria were (in French):
Qualité musicale (musical quality)
Son (sound)
Toucher (touch)
Nuances (shading/tinge)
Pedales (pedals)
Finition (finishing)

The 178 got in every categorie the maximum of 6 points. That result achieved only one another grand, namely the Schimmel K 169 T. They tested 5 grands that cost less than 30.000.- Euro: the WL 178 (10.700 Euro), the mentioned Schimmel (28.500 Euro), the August Förster 170 (29.990 Euro), the Petrof P III (17.500 Euro) and the Kawai Shigerun SK2 (27.990 Euro). One pianist, Francois Dumont, was convinced to play on a Steinway

The conclusion of the tester was this:
Strenghts: refinement of sound, homogeneity of all registers, dynamic possibilities.
Weakness: the player must have a high level to benefit from its richness

Gregor

Wow Gregow,
Thanks for the detail for the blind test. In fact, I am aware of the result but now only I know W&L is competing with those high-end makers.

Thanks very much for the info.

tanjin, [/b]wow, indeed.

Any chance that a trip to the factory is within budget?

If that's not possible, were you able to play the 218? If you did, was its character consistent with what you expected after playing the 161?

I did play the 161 and then the 218. Comparing both of them, I'll say the 161 is more refined in term of tone, but 218 clearly has a better bass. Touch wise, both are very similar with 161 has a lighter initial touch.
I believe the 218 is still breaking into the environment in which I find it to be not perfectly in tune as well, (there's a very tiny out of tune where I can hear in the small showroom. Sounds tend to amplify more there.)
Overall, the 161 performs better than 218 and loses out only at its bass. The tone for both, indeed, is very consistent and doesn't vary much. The high treble and bass sound similar to each other.
Hmm, I guess I need extra assessments on W&L now.

Once again, your description of the 161 sounds very positive. Is the reason you won't consider it simply the lack of a big bass?

Yes, 161 sounds very positive. In fact, the bass, on my 1st playing on it, is very good and it just doesn't sound like it's a 5'3" only.
However, the showroom is very small. Three sides of the pianos are just few inches to the walls, one bricks, one glass/plastic (window) and the other side (where the sounds project to) wood.
It is just plain loud when I guess I am just playing at mp~mf.
I don't know if it would sound as strong as it's in the showroom when it comes to my house.

Other than that, I also feel that aesthetically a 5'3" is not so pretty. But, that's not a major reason.

Also, I guess the owner (also the technician) loves big bass as well. While explaining his product to me, he did mention more on the bass, telling me that he tweaks the bass till the fullest and how the customers be pleased of the bass of W&L.

Jinjack,

A lot of pianos make their mark based on a gigantic bass. August Forster and Mason and Hamiln come to mind. Nothing to be ashamed of if it sells.

Most salesmen I have observed demonstrating a piano will gravitate toward the bass for the same reason. So if it's important to you, go for it! You're not alone in your taste.

jin jack, [/b]understood.

The reason I asked is that our standard advice re not buying a piano which you haven't played and loved can't work for you, if the selection of pianos is limited. Based on your post I'm thinking that the W&L's have a consistent character. That's what would be expected. If you continue to like them, it may be that you'll have to make your best guess re which size you'd prefer. You've been auditioning a number of pianos, so I think that you can be confident about your decision.

It's true that there can be variations among instruments, even those which are produced by manufacturers which use CNC machines. I expect, tho, that the differences will not be so large as to make a given size piano's tone or touch dramatically different from what you expected.

You seem to be at least considering a 198. That would also be my preference. Somewhere around the six foot length, grands seem to acquire a richer bass. To my eyes, somewhere around the 6'3" length, their appearance becomes more graceful. I recently auditioned an old Knabe which was c.6'5". To my eyes it seemed more graceful that a 190, even tho the difference in length was small. If you should decide that you'd prefer a 198, I think that you can have confidence in your decision.

Then just have your own tech do a full prep. All manufacturers issue setup instructions, which include the specs for actions. If your dealer doesn't have a copy, he can get one for you from the factory or the distributor.

I think that you're right re that showroom exaggerating the 161's volume, tho your piano room is lively, so a 161 could easily fill it.

The good part about all this is that you're gaining experience - and there's no final exam, so no need to rush;-)

Patience and persistence.

You are so lucky jack

when i was 15yrs(1985), my mum and me took bus to golden mile complex, to one of the small piano agent to buy a SGD$2300 indonesian new piano. Last time hor... where got aircon bus ???

JinJack,
forget about piano shopping. The house next to mine is for sale, tell your mom to move to California and buy the house. Super cheap right now and you can come over and play on my piano

Wah, 20 years ago you already own a piano, also lucky la.
Yours Indonesian, my one Philippines!
Maybe soon Chinese..

We just can't afford German product.. Sigh..

tanjinjack,

You said the dealer's showroom is rather small with a lot of windows .... how would the room at your home look like: size, type of flooring, ruggs, book cabinets, windows, curtains ...?

I doubt you've had a fair impression of the 218 if it was not in tune, probably not even a bit regulated after arrival at the dealer's showroom and not setteled in.

Also in a French magazine - Pianiste - I read a test of a 178 and a 218. Not that I attach all that much importance to verdicts of those magazines that are testing pianos - the number of stars or medals they get - it stroke me that for the 218 they also made the comment that first you have to get used to the action feeling and make no sucg critical comment for the 178. E.g. for ppp response the 178 gets a 'excellent' quotation whereas the 218 only get 'good'. So this is a bit in line with your comments.

It is a pitty you are not able to try the 178 as I expect it to be big enough for a home environment. Afterall for me it is all about bass clarity and definition and not so much about sheer bass power. Paying a reasonable supplement for the Arledge bass strings on both the 161 and 178 would still even be a fraction better in this department.

You mentioned you would prefer a 198. Have you actually seen or played a W&L 198. W&L showed the 198 at exhibitions but as far as I know it is not available yet from W&L as a series production instrument. Never seen any European dealer stocking one. Yes Hailun USA has made it 'available' on their website on which for the product specifications they advice "to contact your dealer for further information".
I doubt W&L will 'release/launch' it before they are sure it is how they want it to be.

schwammerl.

The dealer showroom, well, is a bit similar to the shape of a grand piano.
The 'tail' end is opened to their office, via a window. The side where the lid hinge resides is concrete I believe while the other side is made of wood (plywood?). At the keyboard side, it's the glass, merely for display purpose so that people outside can look into the showroom.
My room will be lively as well. Concrete walls, ceilings and tiles floor. But, I have curtains on the windows (half of one side of a wall) and a glass door (which takes up one side of the room.)
I guess I'll get a rug and slowly improve my room acoustic.

FYI, there's 198, according to the dealer. They have sold one to a local university in which they say they are proud to bring me there to play it (5 minutes away from the store).
However, I am a bit afraid that 198 might be too powerful for my house and I am looking at 178, partly due to budget reason. I don't wish to spend too much, it's my parents' money, not mine.
I believe the bass of 178 can satisfy me, as the amplified (due to the showroom) 161 has a bass that I actually feel impressed with.

Is it okay for me to request for them to get a 178 for display?
The problem here is the majority of piano buyers in Malaysia choose unit out of the box. The customers test the display unit, and then order a out-of-the-box unit. They have made a lot of businesses in that way. You try a 161, so the 178 will be better than it, so you can get the 178 if you like. If you want better, then we have the 198. This is their way of selling the pianos. As far as I am concerned, the 218 will be displayed is due to the dealer making a wrong order for his customer.

Another problem is the Hailun (also available ONLY from order) is at about 70% of the price of the W&L. The Hailun dealer only has Wagner for display and claims them to be identical. For me, there's difference in term of tone for Hailun and W&L, with Hailun being thicker but less prominent in bass. I still haven't found the difference between these two brands that make a difference for 30% but I have to say, my experience with Wagner is not good. The piano is not well prepped. The after sales service for the W&L dealer is also better and I feel warm and delighted throughout my time at there. Biased?

Hi Jack, have you consider the W & L uprights?
Whats your review about them?

I don't mean to kay-poh, but since you're not working yet, isn't it more realistic to get something that's already much better sounding and touch than your exsisting piano?
Then later when you work and have the spending power, you can trade in and get your dream piano?
Unless your mom doen't mind at all.

just a thought, no offence meant
Just that your quest of buying a piano puzzles me come to think of it. Most forumer are, i presume working adults. (flamesuit put on with aircon inlet activated)

tanjinjack,

Below are merely my very PERSONAL opinions.

If the W&L dealer cannot be convinced ordering a 178 for you to try out - and eventually refuse it if you would not like it, I personally would not consider it as a big risk having him ordered a 178 if you already like the 161; you can only be positively surprised.

I understand that you have less confidence in the Wagner/Hailun dealer competencies for after sales service. If at the same time you have not an easy access to good independant techs - as is also the case where I live - I would first selct the dealer and thereafter the piano. That has always been my position.

As to the differences between W&L and Hailun/Wagner, why not simply ask the W&L dealer why his colleague is selling Hailuns for 30% less and what he thinks is the difference?
If you say the Hailuns are sounding thicker in the bass you may ask what hammers they use on the Hailuns. W&L uses the best Wurzenfelt AA quality - still hot pressed for the moment - for their grand hammers.

schwammerl.

snoopycar,

Regarding the W&L upright, I must say it is a very good upright. However, the tone doesn't project out, perhaps it's contained in a box. The action is alright, but it's always different from a grand. The bass is good, for its length.
Thanks for the opinion but I guess I am pretty much too obsessed with the idea of owning a grand already. For almost every upright that I play in my search, I don't find myself to like the tone/touch or whatsoever, with a YUS5 as exception.
I guess I am spoiled by grand piano.

schwammerl,
From Wagner website, they use "reinforced German/Japanese felt". Hailun says that they use "reinforced German felt".
Wagner specs
I have emailed Wagner to learn the hammers, guess I can only get a reply tomorrow.

Also, you stress that they are still hot-pressed but it seems that on W&L website, they are cold-pressed. Any ideas?

On my next visit, I will surely ask for the difference between W&L and Wagner/Hailun.
So far, I know the prep is different. W&L is voiced to be more European in tone. Other than that, W&L has aluminium keyframe while Hailun (not sure about Wagner) is using traditional wood. This is so far my findings. Ah, their fallboard name is different, too. W&L decal looks nicer.