Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Introductory understanding of EBVT ?

Thanks, BDB:

I found the frequency of the Big Ben bell itself (its sort of a B) but not its mates. I was curious if they were closer to just intonation than people might think.

What I hear in the Big Ben video, is not a sort of a B, but closer to G2, perhaps a bit sharp... The tune starts an (slightly wide?) octave higher than Big Ben.

But I don't want to derail the thread.

Sorry, I believe I may have developed a phobia for this thread that I started.

The ET graph looks fine with your explanation. It's the EBVT graph that I'm having problems. And it doesn't help my cause that I'm color blind as well

Now is there anyway EBVT can be illustrated without using the graph as 'the' reference?

Guys, at the risk of sounding impertinent, could we just ignore the 'morals' of EBVT ? The OP doesn't even know what EBVT is all about after some 62 posts !

Lets start with octave. What is the difference between ET octaves and EBVT octaves ?

Then with fifths. What is the difference between ET 5ths and EBVT 5ths ?

Then with fourths.

Then with Major 3rds.

The Rollingball Graphical Representation is just another Color-Wheel Chart designed to defeat a born color-blind man.

Cashley:

This is your thread, because you started it. Do not hesitate to post your expectations of where you want this thread to go. I am glad you started it because it has helped clear the air about what people believe EBVT might be.

Now is there anyway EBVT can be illustrated without using the graph as 'the' reference?

I understand the graph fairly well and do not know what it really means either. Perhaps if someone could make a table showing the percent dissonance of each key (0% being Just Intonation, 50% being ET, 100% being ???) along with an explanation of how a key's dissonance – not just a chord's dissonance - is determined. Both major and minor keys would be appropriate.

[Edit:] Sorry about the cross post. It may help as it is anyway.

Cashley, Jeff:

To me the rollingball graphs are very clear, because any unevenness in the temperament will of course affect every interval, and to a musician - most prominently - the thirds. Which are clearly shown in the graphs.

BUT, that said, there might be other ways to describe a temperament graphically. Let's use our heads a bit, everybody, and see what we could come up with!

Cashley: When you ask for the difference between ET and EBVT in the different intervals, do you like numbers or some kind of graphs?

Cashley,
Below is the link to tuning EBVT in all its flavors. The interval sequences are listed very clearly. Unlike ET, increasing beat rates as it pertains 10ths, 6ths, 3ds, are not increasing sequentially due to the fact it is not an equal temperament, only key interval are equal beating. Hope this helps.

As for octaves, I use the mindless octave technique also listed on Bill's site. Octaves, whether tuned in EBVTiii or ET are adjusted to fit the piano's own characteristics, but I use the mindless octave technique to simplify my approach. Usually, I implement with the intention of choosing equalizing the beats between an octave and a fifth and two octaves for the stretch. It works quite well for most pianos. Generally, pianos in large rooms get more stretch, as do consoles - that is my preference at this early stage of the tuning game. Some folks like tuning as closely as possible pure 12ths. It is really a matter of taste as this is all so very subjective anyway.


Glen

EBVT sequences
http://www.billbremmer.com/ebvt/summary_ebvt_sequences.pdf

ET via Marpurg
http://www.billbremmer.com/articles/et_via_marpurg.pdf

Octave Tuning
http://www.billbremmer.com/articles/aural_octave_tuning.pdf

I think for a start, a few kind souls have misinterpreted my question. I'm not asking : 'How to tune EBVT or EBVTiii ?' I'm also not asking: 'Is EBVT better than ET ?'

So the moral value of EBVT is not directly relevant to my question. Likewise, the tuning sequence is not helpful to me at this point of time.

How did I understand ET ? By comparing the tempered version with just intonation. So understanding is attained via comparison. And the basis of comparison - just intonation - is easy to understand. As for other HTs, at least I know certain intervals are pure leaving certain intervals not so pure, and sometimes, with a wolf interval as well.

But EBVT ? Maybe I should compare EBVT with just intonation to get a hang of what it's all about. At least other historical temperaments the characteristics are explained in terms of how the intervals differ.

I asked the questions many (many) times. How do the important intervals differ ? There must be a pattern, eg. in the case of ET, all 5ths narrowed; all 4ths widened etc.

So I ask again. How do the intervals in EBVT differ from pure or ET ? The difference must exhibit a 'pattern' or a 'formula'. At this point, bombarding me with decimal points is not going to help me at all.

I'm asking for a pattern, just as ET has a fixed pattern.

And it's Equal Beating. So exactly which intervals are equal beating ?

I know if BB is around, he will say : 'Try it out first.' But that is not my question. I want to understand the logic of the sequence, just as ET has a crystal clear logic.

The EBVT pattern (beat rates) is listed in the links I provided. The instructions clearly state which intervals are equal beating and how to acheive them. Your answers are in the instructions whether you want to learn to tune it or not.

I am learning to tune in both temperaments, so I have no torch to carry here.

Drop Bill an email from his website and he can more responsibly answer your detailed questions, since I appear to be failing miserably.

Glen

I like logic expressed in words.

With due respect, you have misunderstood my question.

The keyword is 'pattern'. Details are not helpful at this point of time. Details presuppose that I already have knowledge of the pattern.

Imagine if you meet your regular piano teacher customer who has been using ET all her life. Now you're going to suggest to her to try out your new toy EBVT. The teacher asks: 'What's is that ?' And you start bombarding her with the beat rates and cents etc.?

Cashley,
What I told my own piano teacher when I tuned her piano in EBVTiii was, "Let's try a slightly different approach and implement a temperament that resembles a historical one, if you don't like it, I will retune it the old way". That is what I told a few of my other customers and a few don't know the difference - they like the fact the piano is in tune, mostly because the unisons are where I spend most of my time anyway and what most people hear as piano going out of tune, not the temperament itself.

With all do respect, EBVTiii is no toy, just as all the other historical temperaments and ET aren't toys, either.

A few clients don't like anything but the old way and that is a-okay with me. I am providing them with what they want. I like having the ability to be able to tune in different styles, well, two anyway. Now that I just acquired TuneLab, I might be able to explore some of those other historical temperaments to further expand my horizons - clearly...I can't hear .2 of cent anyway.

Sometimes I spend more time cleaning out the junk and dust/grime from the strings, soundboard, and things that have fallen behind the fallboard and between the strings than I do setting the temperament. Kind of amazing, really. Foreign objects don't go near my piano, while some people put potted plants, picture frames and all sorts of stuff on their pianos.

Take Care
Glen

Me: It is a tuning style that respects the way Western piano music has been composed up until atonal music.

Them: Huh?

Me: Are you familiar with the circle of fifths?

Them: Yeahhhhh...

Me: There seems to have been a reason in the past to write pieces in certain keys for the piano, and a direction for modulation. I don't think it was just random choice.

Them:OK

Me: This type of tuning makes music written near the top of the circle of fifths more consonant, harmonious, sweet sounding.

Them: What about the bottom of the circle?

Me: As you travel to the sides, it sounds similar to how most people tune these days, just a little agitated, busy, vibrant. Then moving on to the bottom just increases this effect making the music sound more agitated, busy or vibrant.

Them: Can I play anything?

Me: Sure! In fact, chances are you won't notice anything except the piano sounds like an in-tune piano. There is a very small segment of people that really are effected in a positive or negative way.

Them: So why do something different?

Me: Cause I think it respects the composers of the music that you are playing. It might even help in your interpretation or understanding of the music.

Ron Koval
chicagoland

No, I'd just say something like this - although EBVT is no toy, but let's skip that discussion...:

"The problem we deal with in piano tuning is that if you tune pure fifths all the way trough the cycle of fifths, the C you arrive at after going through all twelve keys will be far too sharp.

Thus, somewhere along the cycle you have to tune narrow 5ths in order to reach a last C that will be in tune with the C you started from. There are different opinions on where to tune narrow.

The old tunings (meantone tunings) favored a number of keys and left the others rather compromised. Equal temperament doesn't favor any key at all, instead it distributes the difference between the last and first C evenly amongst all the fifths - all fifths are narrowed by the same amount, thus no key is favored.

EBVT uses another approach, which goes back to the Victorian era. It compromises the close keys (those with none or few sharps/flats) less than the remote keys (those with more sharps/flats). It distributes the difference between the first and last C unevenly, slightly favoring the close keys to the remote keys. In doing so, the keys all sound slightly different. C will be the calmest, F#/Gb the most spicy, wildest."

Does this help?

Cashley:

Here is a “stab in the dark” that may get things rolling in the right direction, even if I am way off the mark.

The equal beating intervals in EBVT are mostly major thirds. If you understand ET, you should understand that the major thirds in ET beat progressively faster, doubling in speed each octave, or increasing by the 12ths root of two each semitone.

In a well temperament, the goal is to have the keys closer to the key of C to have major thirds that beat slower than in ET (are less wide of just intonation in cents) and the keys closer to F# to beat faster (are more wide of just intonation in cents). But how can these be aurally tuned when normally the beat speeds are progressive?

One way is to use selected equal beating major thirds. In the case of EBVT these are F-A, G-B and C-E in the F-F temperament octave. In ET C-E would be much faster than the other two. By having them beat the same and at a speed slower than even the normally slowest F-A, these three calmest keys now have major thirds that are at an acceptable width for a well temperament.

And by also selecting certain fourths and fifths to be pure, and other 4ths and fifths to beat the same as each other, the width of the other major thirds are tuned to a well temperament (the width in cents varies from less wide for C and more wide for F#).

All:

Correct me where I may be wrong, please. This is how I understand the purpose of the tuning sequence.

I think this may be the sort of thing Cashley is looking for. I do not think English is his first language, even though his spelling and grammar are excellent. There seems to be a problem with us understanding just what he is asking.

Many thanks for the contributions, including Inlanding.

Patrick built on Ron's user-friendly introduction but missed out on the equal beating bit which, thankfully, Jeff supplemented.

The problem [with understanding] arises from the different backgrounds and the different angles we approach a subject. When we 'teach', too often we would use the method we had previously learnt. With that, we would often presume that the other person was as knowledgeable as us when we were still a novice. Finding the right 'user-interface' software to bridge the two different operating systems requires wisdom. This is what that makes teaching a noble profession.

Coming back to Jeff's explanation:

One way is to use selected equal beating major thirds. In the case of EBVT these are F-A, G-B and C-E in the F-F temperament octave. In ET C-E would be much faster than the other two. By having them beat the same and at a speed slower than even the normally slowest F-A, these three calmest keys now have major thirds that are at an acceptable width for a well temperament.

Exactly which 3 keys are you referring to ? I couldn't find any reference to the 3 keys in the preceding paragraphs.

Is there any reason why, in the case of EBVT, the 3 selected M3 intervals are F-A, G-B and C-E ?

Finally, I know EBVT is available with the new TuneLab. What about Digital Pianos ? Is there anyway we can program EBVT in DPs using TuneLab or other stuff ?

Yes, definitely

BTW, is there a clear demarcation between what is closed keys and open keys ? How many sharps in a key would constitute a closed or open key ?

It is close/remote keys and not closed/open keys.

It refers to the distance counted on sharps or flats present in the key signature to the C Major key.

For example G major is close to C Major because there is only one sharp in its key signature.

D major is also a close tonality but less than G Major because it has 2 sharps.

Close=near
Remote=far


There is no absolute frontiere. C is the origine with no alterations.

F#/Gb is the farest key with 6 sharps/flats.

A and Eb are just in the middle with 3 alterations.

It is clear when you look at the circle of fifths. As in a clock.

Put C on 12 o'clock, G at 1, D at 2, A at 3, E at 4, B at 5, F# at 6.

And in the other direction put F at 11, Bb at 10, Eb at 9, Ab at 8, Db at 7, and Gb at 6.