So what is the cat's meow these days for a CONTROLLER for pro gigs using sample triggering (Ivory etc).

Has to be 88 keys and a realistic action.
Also NO FATAR...They suck..

Currently I use an RD-700 and an RD-150 for gigs.
I trigger Ivory for my gigs.

A friend is asking for a strictly controller KB.
Just basic stuff, no built in sounds.

TIA!

Did you see what the Sythogy guys were using at NAMM?

Cheers,
James
x

James,

Yes, it looked like the MP-8II. But if only Kawai released a controller-only version of that key action!! I might seriously consider buying that.

Curt

Yes, me too!

No buttons, display, or knobs, just the latest Kawai wooden-key action with a USB connector, and packaged inside a slimline cabinet with a flat top.

Cheers,
James
x

I'd like the AvantGrand action, as a controller . . . I REALLY think that there would be a market for such a machine.

+1

Beware, this should not be a "me too" product ;-)

Please not USB ;-) Or, better said, not USB as the only option.
Some people would possibly choose to connect this to a keyboard or sound module.

Yes, to keep the price down, and warranty costs low, all other stuff like knobs and so on that could fail could be ommited. But it should have full featured (continous) pedal connectors.

And a nice stand like that of the ES6 should be available..

And to keep the price up (Kawai deserves some benefits also ;-) and to make it very new and sensational and differing from the competition a PC software could be supplied, that allows to edit the velocity response for each single key in 16 bit resolution.
I am also quite sure that the opensource community would create editing tools for all OS's soon, and so the software supplied could be very basic and would not cause support and warranty costs.

Maybe the format of the files should be documented and license-free, so that librarie vendors and -users can create and exchange velocity profiles.

And it should have a third damper sensor, and that should be programmable, because probably not all libraries or sound modules would be compatible.
Optional keyoff velocity would also be nice....

Street retail price between 1500-2000 Euros. This would sell and I believe Kawai already has all hardware and software components and only would need to fit them together to a nice unique and revolutionary package...

;-)

Peter

You know why we don't see these? It's price. A quality MIDI controller, one that uses Yamaha GH keys would cost almost as much to make as the CP33. But it would sell in much lower quantities and therefore the price would be high. How many $999 GH based controllers could Yamaha sell vs. the number of $999 CP33? Adding the sound generation ability does not cost Yamaha much, maybe $100 over the price of a controller.

And yes you would need controls and an LCD display. How else to program the midi channel and if the keyboard is split and so on.

Back to the OP. What MIDI controller? None. I think people are using DPs.

Hey ChrisA!
I think you are on to something with the price.

It definitely needs to have knobs, mod wheel etc
After my friend came up empty with his search, I was curious if such a beast still existed.
Looks like the answer is no

The VAX has 77 keys and folds, not hammer action, but looks very well made. And they do the 77 key thing correctly IMO by chopping off the top octave.

No, I dont think.
It not be a general purpose keyboard, it should be for piano enthusiasts only and for stage usage and also for studio and home usage. Look should be similar to Numa Nero, but without display but with 3 pedals.

Most people in this target group will want a puristic piano and those that want additional Midi controllers, split features and so on could add a netbook with touchscreen or some Korg Nanocontrols or else or a second keyboard.

The interface could be totally in software for this purpose.
Best would be if it where written in HTML and could be displayed with any browser. Then it where always usable with any OS that has a browser.

I believe that Pro's, when they want to play classic or piano solo, use an acoustic on stage always. In Studio possibly they use an acoustic with pianobar and MIDI output.

But the /real/ serious professional classical and jazz pianists will use an acoustic always.

I think, the market for pianolibraries is constantly growing and I have learned that the newer Netbooks have dual core Atom processors and can run Galaxy... I think this process goes on and is irreversible wether the big (digital) piano vendors might like it or not.

Peter

I want 88 keys of actual grand piano action with three pedal inputs, midi out & a power button built into a minimalist slab of black. That's it, no sliders, displays, knobs or buttons. Why is that so hard?

If it was available, I'd buy it today & pay good money for it.

+ 1

+1 from me as well.

Well, MP8ii offers USB or MIDI; there are four pedals... you don't have to use the internal sounds or panel controls (much; some assign different functions to the pedal controllers and wheels)).

The action is smooth and responsive, and pretty configurable. Personally, I could wish it were a little meatier, but it's quite playable; no real complaints. It is a Kawai keyboard, not Fatar. If you want something more slab-like in a very similar instrument, there's the MP5. You have to give up the XLR outs, but it's lighter. The MP8ii's action makes up a good bit of its additional weight.

Piano stores have them on-site (and online sellers offer them); music stores like Guitar Center, not so much. One of the biggest complaints is that that people have trouble finding them to try them out. So call your Kawai dealer.

Could you explain your objection to buttons and sliders? You have to control things somehow...

No model-specific stand for the 8ii; you have to go third-party. I got a sturdy stand with four adjustable legs and pay very little attention to it. As long as it's not an X-stand, I'm happy. (The expression pedal and footswitch are also third-party, available anywhere. The Roland models from GC worked well for me.)

My understanding, though, is that the MP8 Mark II is not an actual piano action, as found in the AvantGrand. I believe at least some of us are saying that is is the real piano action that we want!

I can control everything from inside Pianoteq. Even then, I don't mess with it that much since I have a setting I use pretty much all of the time. I've never used or assigned any of the buttons, wheels, etc on my controller.


This. I bought the Studiologic because for the money it has pretty good action. I'm very much a beginner, but am starting to feel the differences between it and my teacher's Kawai grand.

The Mp8ii action is nice for what it is, but it's nothing like the Kawai grand's action. Nothing is like a grand.

Petrof have a minimalistic grand piano MIDI "controller":
http://www.petrof.com/midi-grand-piano.html

I emailed them about availability here in Australia but never received a response.

Greg.

I can't agree. The action in the AvantGrand IS a grand action.

I'm actually hopeful that Kawai, who like Yamaha also make acoustic grand actions, might release something to compete with AvantGrand. Competition is often a good thing.

What do you think the market size would be? How many do you think could be sold per month? What would be a reasonable retail price.

1. At least three

2. At least three

3. $1500 to $2000 USD

"1500 to $2000 USD"

You've paid for a set of hammers there...

So maybe I'll have to save a little longer.

Try to contact australia dealer:

http://www.petrof.com/australia-petrof_australia.html?lang=2

I've checked their site again and they've added 3 new cabinets so it looks like that this project is still alive.

It doesnt seem to me that they did the rigth thing.
If they sense the keys and not the hammers, then the "touch" and "feel" might be authentic, but not the dynamic response.
It would then be not more "realistic" than a Fatar or Casio action in its response.

And there are no felts required and there are no hammers required that are selected for their resonance. Thats nonsense for a pure MIDI controller. This all makes this unnecessary expensive.

It it would be required to sense the key position in order to emulate the damper and the repetition mechanism. I bet they did not do this, because they dont write anything about it.

I must say, I am really happy with the Kawai AWA Grand pro action (that I readjusted). Dont have the experience that I could say, this feels like a real Kawai Rx, but I can say for sure, when I play Galaxy piano then I really have the impression there are real hammers that hit real strings.

The only thing missing for perfection would be a third sensor for the damper and true continuous pedal. (Ok I already have a plan how to do the latter)

Peter

As a solo pianist, I also would not require any knobs or sliders. Just power up the Ivory (or Garritan) library and start playing. Everything can be tweaked in the software.

But back to the original post: I don't know that pros use a board strictly as a controller. They always use at least SOME of the internal sounds. Jordan Rudess (who is a pioneer of WOW regarding keyboard technology) used to use a single Kurzweil K2600 as a "controller" that fed into several rack devices and he would jump around between devices in real-time using a footswitch as a program controller.

Other than that, I've seen the Kawai MP8(II) used a lot as a controller running software libraries.

It just seems a little wasteful to me. I understand that we "all we want is a key action with a USB connection" people are a special niche audience, but we also know exactly what we want and all of that fluff is just going to waste on us. I currently use an RD700GX this way. The volume slider is on 0. I use NOTHING internal. I bought it because it felt the best to me when playing piano. Would I have paid $2000(ish) for this same action in a sleek, plain, black cabinet with no surface controls to speak of?

ABSOLUTELY.

Curt

I think that's largely the case too. It's the route I went - partly because they just seem to be better keyboards.

Mychal

Wow, and built-in to a flight case no less! Looks nice for the real keys/hammers crowd.

Avantgrand, Yamaha Silent use optical sensors on both the keys and the hammers. I wonder what approach Petrof is using?

There is a recording studio not too far from me that has a Yamaha Silent piano for the MIDI keyboardists to use for their sampled sounds, keyboard sounds etc. Apparently many artists prefer the actual piano action over a DP action.

There is a guy at synthogy (look there) he made a rachmaninov concerto and there is a interview at synthogy. He said he used his old and "beloved" Yamaha masterkeyboard for this, I dont know the type, maybe kx8.

Hugh sung who made a lot of demos for pianotek seems to prefer the Roland RD700SX.

Others that I have read about or seen use old Kurzweil controllers that probably have a Fatar action inside.

I think if somebody already is a pro-level pianist and has the ability to play on very different acoustics, he will not be too picky about the keyboard as long as it is reliable and compatible, as long as it has reasonable velocity characteristic and response and does the job.

For non classical playing they also use nonweigthed or halfweighted keyboards. Of course on stage the stars will always use a real black polished grand piano, because anything else doesnt have this show effect ;-)

If they are nonclassical stars (jazz or pop) then they are also under advertisement contract and preferrably use what they get from their sponsor in public performances... ;-)

I think they use everything that fits to the job.
Now if classical style is the goal then for example the old AWA grand pro from Kawai and a lot of older Yamahas and other brands would be the wrong choice. Say you have to play a repetition or an ornament fast but very soft.
It is simply impossible to do this, when the key must be almost totally
released. That has nothing to do with skills. It is impossible for physical and mechanical reasons, because it is impossible to move over a long keytravel distance fast and at the same time maintaining a slow attack velocity... Most older keyboards have this problem.

And if a real grand action is combined with a poorly constructed piano bar this would be impossible also....

"...Of course on stage the stars will always use a real black polished grand piano, because anything else doesnt have this show effect ;-)..."

Liberace. Elton.

The link to Liberace's museum of pianos is astonishing jaw-dropping.

Where did you get your stand for your MP8II?

I am in the market for one.

There are companies that sell stage-prop piano shells. These are hollow, fake piano cases that have a place where you can put a digital keyboard inside. The idea is that you get the look of a "real piano" but you get to play the DP. I don't know the number of performers who use these but it's enough to keep a small cottage industry in business. So you are right about the show effect. There is no other possible purpose to something like that.

The other thing, when you ask what do "most" performers use. Well, "most" pros are poor and they use what they can afford. It's only the very few stars and us amateurs (with day jobs) who can have what we want.

"Where did you get your stand for your MP8II?"

The Kawai dealer who sold me the DP. I've seen similar four-legged models at GC, Sweetwater. Around 80 bucks.