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#1467731 - 07/03/10 06:36 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Ben Crosland]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11843
Loc: Canada
Quote:

The thing is, as anyone who has taught more than a handful of students will know, this kind of statement should really come with a "for some of the people" disclaimer.


My post is full of the word 'some', Ben. I was addressing a young man who is in the school system as a teacher for the first time, trying to get a handle on what he is seeing. The school system, rather than private lessons, were being addressed in this instant.

Btw, I have taught more than a handful of students. wink


Edited by keystring (07/03/10 06:37 PM)

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#1467737 - 07/03/10 06:49 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: keystring]
Ben Crosland Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/10
Posts: 421
Loc: Worcester, UK
Originally Posted By: keystring
[quote]


Btw, I have taught more than a handful of students. wink


Yeah, sorry - I wasn't really aiming that at you wink
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#1467772 - 07/03/10 08:48 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
hippymusicman, I entirely agree that your post is not about 'ego', but from my 42-year-old perspective I think your post is a lot about being 22 [Gen Y, whatever]!!! It's also a little bit to do with not having a wide-enough view of what it means when people tell you that you are a genius - they are trying to pay you a big compliment! They are not trying to say you should join MENSA, they simply want to let you know they are totally impressed with what you can do. It's not something to have an existential crisis about.


I don't mean to come across as someone who is trying to 'save' you. But I do wish to share my beliefs because most responses to my beliefs helps to change or solidify them.

Your responses in particular I have found to be very stimulating.

I believe the ego is speaking when there is any intent to separate one being from another. This is not an attack, but I believe your post did this. It is not an existential crisis. It happens all the time with just about everyone.

I believe the reason your ego spoke is because our beliefs clash.. The interesting thing is watching the ego tactics on how it will try to dismiss the opposing belief. It doesn't want to even accept the possibility that my belief may be agreeable and because of that we have lost normal discussion on it. Your post was not in the mood to discuss. It was stamping your belief with back up from your ego. In this case the ego's tactic was 'age'.

What if I now told you right now that I was lying about my age and I was actually 60.. Or what if I never told you my age in the first place... would we be discussing it properly then? my point is age shouldn't change anything. It's an instinctive ego defense tactic. Once again, this happens all the time with just about everyone.

If there's no more separation, then we can continue to discuss my proposed idea and learn something from it. Even if the thing we learn is that my idea is absolute rubbish. The only way to learn that is to discuss it, not stamp it out.

I do understand that when someone says I'm a genius they are trying to pay me a big compliment, which is an attempt to make me feel good. This compliment does not make me feel any better than I already feel. Because A) I feel fine.. B) I consider the label meaningless and would simply ask for a definition.. and C) The reason they are giving a compliment is to be 'nice'. It is external and in a sense 'shallow'.

Imagine telling a blind person they look beautiful. The response might be "what makes a person say such things?" That is how I feel when someone calls me names like 'genius'.. Or 'attractive' for that matter. "that's not needed here because I don't feel down about it in the first place... but I'm curious as to why you want to say it"

hippymusicman, I raise the issue of age because it actually does make a difference to the way one approaches a topic. If you were 60 and writing this I would not bother to discuss the topic with you at all!! I would think "how funny that this man has lived so very long and still bothers to engage with the flattering things people say".

I appreciate the frustration of hearing someone say "I'm older than you and that makes my perspective different", but it seems to me from your response that what you heard was not what I said. What I said was that from my perspective (which includes as a matter of fact 42 years of life experience besides everything else that does in fact distinguish my experience from yours and make my perspective a little different - but equally human - to anyone else's) you were not speaking out of ego.

Now, if you wish to disagree with me and say that I was wrong to reach the conclusion I did (that you were not speaking out of ego) that is entirely your prerogative.

But I am who I am, with an age, a set of experiences, a set of insights and disappointments, places visited, persons met, that make me a different speaker to you, and me speaking from my own embodied experience does not equate to me speaking from ego. I understood from your previous posts that you were interested in what makes different humans behave in different ways. Discounting my contribution because I have felt it pertinent to mention your age and my age will not lead you to learning from my contribution. But it's of no consequence to me either way; for the meantime, I choose to engage in this conversation with you.

Back to the issue of the compliment: it's not about you!! I don't think you appreciate that it is absolutely nothing to do with you!! It's about the person trying to communicate their feelings when they hear you play. It's about them!!! It reflects their feelings, their past experience, their beliefs about the world. Your actions have sparked these feelings, but you are not responsible for them. And your ego should not be bothered by these comments one way or the other - they mean nothing to you in your quest.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1467774 - 07/03/10 08:53 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
Teachers are already over the idea of genius well and truly and put no faith in such labels. As you will have already noted, many people in this forum and in the Pianist's Corner forum made mention of the fact that someone calling you a genius says more about their ignorance than about your expertise.

This [Piano Teachers Forum] is a demographic who don't need saving from this linguistic misconception.


Sorry that was so long, but here's one more topic I think you can help me with.

Most people on piano world, I've noticed have many labels in their 'signature'. Songs they can play job title etc.

I'd like to understand more clearly why people feel the need to use these labels, while steering clear of other labels like 'genius'.
I added a signature to my posts about a week after I first began participating in this forum, on the suggestion of someone else in the forum. It was a good idea.

The reason people steer clear of the label genius, and others like it, is that such labels do not convey information, they are a judgment. And like many judgments, not everyone will agree. No one can disagree with the contents of my signature - these are simply facts. Why would anyone want to call themselves a genius????? It might be a 90s style postmodern irony, I suppose....
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1467850 - 07/03/10 11:46 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman


Most people on piano world, I've noticed have many labels in their 'signature'. Songs they can play job title etc.

I'd like to understand more clearly why people feel the need to use these labels, while steering clear of other labels like 'genius'.


Why don't many use labels like genius as you do? Because most people don't want to appear to be an idiot.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

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#1467867 - 07/04/10 12:16 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
LimeFriday Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 303
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman


What if I now told you right now that I was lying about my age and I was actually 60..


If you said that right now - I would be thinking "Wow... this 60 year old guy sounds like he's straight out of school encountering the world for the first time"

I love your enthusiasm... I love that you are excited by your ideas - that you want to share your perspective in the hope that it will inspire the same enthusiasm you feel right now.

I remember feeling like that - I remember being exposed to ideas and perspectives that I'd never encountered before... and being simultaneously inspired and appalled by those ideas and perspectives. I remember having the desire to change the world.

What I didn't realise then and I do know now - is that most of the ideas and perspectives came people who'd lived and worked for many years - and whose ideas had been shaped and changed by experience and their own mistakes.

It's great to share your ideas - but at the same time - it's not great to believe that your ideas are the only 'way'... or that your ideas are what other should strive to achieve or understand. Most of those people you are trying to convince have been there before you.

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#1467915 - 07/04/10 03:01 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: keystring]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1663
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: keystring
There is so much here. Going from one thing to the next:

Quote:
I want people to attempt to attain the label 'genius' so they can understand that the word really means nothing, labels mean nothing, ranking systems mean nothing.


Food for thought:
In a forum (PW) where people gather because they are serious about music, it is likely that some of those people have a calling to music and also a certain natural talent. In the teacher forum, certainly there will be people calling themselves teachers who maybe should wait to be doing so or ought to pursue something else. But there will definitely be people who had a great deal of natural talent and that this calling brought them to where they are today. What I am saying is that at least some of those here have at one time or another been called geniuses or similar, and the average person has been in awe of them. That is the (*mixed*) audience that you are addressing.

You have encountered a certain world in the high school where you are teaching. There are sad attitudes that kill music. They actually cut students off from music; they create a disconnection and barrier. The kids are taught stiff things. They are also induced to study through prizes (grades) and competition with one another - all of which rightly appalls you - and that again shuts them off. If you are studying for grades you are no longer interested in the subject. You, having a natural connection to music, can see that there is more and want to change things. That would explain what you have posted, in part.

This world that you have encountered is not the whole world. Not everyone thinks that way. Those who are teachers here probably have a wider vision - You must make room in your mind that there are a great many ways that people relate to music and think about music. Some of the men and women in this forum have spent 30 or 40 years pursuing it, and we also don't know what those who teach are doing with their students. At least some of those people may have been where you are now, and gone further. Others may be merely mechanics who memorized some physical principles and intellectual facts that will produce some kind of results.

For the kids in high school that you are teaching, it is good that they are being brought past that bland non-vision one sees. If they can form that connection to music and what is in them, at least some of them will go on to learn who knows what, who knows where - at least there has been a start. The worst thing that I saw were some neighbourhood kids, age 7, from the school's "music" program, playing a memorized sequence of finger numbers or recorder so that their parents could recognize a "song" --- if that music-killer can be avoided, all the better!

Do not stop your own growth and your own seeking. You are only at the beginning. You have already seen the edge of something else: people who hear the music they read (or write) with written notation. Keep your eye & ear open for people with knowledge & experience who also seem musically connected, from whom you can learn things, and be open minded toward what they might reveal, and how they reveal them. It can be from angles you do not expect.

I am an adult student. I've experienced things similar to that label, and like you, music, different instruments, etc. come easily to me. I wasted decades doing only what I could find and do myself. Life happens, and sometimes you don't know there is a road in order to embark on it. What is out there, and what some people know and are connected to, is humbling. That is why you don't see the strong musicians brag much; they have seen just how big it is, and how little they know, even though what they know is incredibly much.

As you learn more from here and there, you will probably find that formal things you learn are connected to what you already have inside you as an instinctive knowledge. It fleshes it out, adds to it - gives 'aha's'. You will probably also find that dry meaningless things in "theory" actually refer to something richer that you can dig out. That knowledge is not only in classical music; by ear players also have a ton of theory behind what they do.

What I have found in my own journey of these few years is that there are sides to music I had not been aware of. You are deaf until you become aware of a thing and start listening for it, and then you hear it everywhere! The trouble is that there are also 'experts' using big words --- they do know a lot (of facts) --- who just offer empty or confusing things. But there is a lot to discover, and everything you discover will go back to what you can put into your playing and your composing, and what you teach.


This post, IMO, has more 'genius' and wisdom in it than any of the posts I've read from the OP. Whether or not the OP feels that what he has discovered is some sort of 'truth' about things, all I am perceiving is smug self satisfaction which to me is indicative of an inexperienced and yes, ego driven mind.
You want proof? Look how many responses on this thread reek of ego. Ego's 'activate' other egos.
To me a true genius is someone who is FAR too concerned and occupied with the path they are on to stop and ask "Gee, am I a genius?"


Edited by AJF (07/04/10 03:58 AM)
Edit Reason: sp
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#1467921 - 07/04/10 03:27 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Wizard of Oz]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1663
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
Originally Posted By: danshure

Keith Jarrett is not egotistical, he is misunderstood and taken out of context.

Chick and Herbie are great but not anywhere near the level of Keith.



Jarrett is an egomaniac of the highest sort. Have you ever been to his concert where he admonishes the audience for coughing, or stops playing mid-song to wait for people to be quiet.

Chick and Herbie are both as good as Keith, yet their styles are totally different from his.

Perhaps it's your preference to a certain jazz that leans your bias towards KJ.

Jarrett is the master of ballads and solo improv ala Koln. But try getting him to play Herbie's Maiden Voyage or Dolphin Dance, or Chick's Spain.





I disagree with this post wholeheartedly.
I do not think Keith Jarrett is an egomaniac of the 'highest sort'.

Keith Jarrett, IMO, is someone who is so in touch with what is needed in order for the music to 'happen' that he is not willing to make sacrifices of any sort which may impede the musical process. It's not about him, it's about the music that he cherishes so much.
How could an egomaniac create music of such pure beauty and universality?
As a musician I think Keith Jarrett is about as ego-less as they come. He may very well be a complete and utter ego maniac off stage but who cares? Beethoven was apparently a huge asshole (pardon the vulgar language) but does that make his music any less wonderful?
When Keith sits down at the piano it is so about the MUSIC that it's as if he (the INDIVIDUAL) isn't even there. He believes so deeply in being able to capably channel the musical forces 'out there' to the listener that when something (like external noise or an out of tune piano) comes in the way of that process he won't stand for it. Not because of his own self importance but because he believes so deeply in what can happen for the listener when the music happens. To me that is quite selfless.
And the 'proof is in the pudding'. Why is Keith such a widely appreciated musician worldwide? Because he captures something when he plays that speaks to people on a very basic level. His playing doesn't SHOW the audience something, it GIVES the audience something.

I agree that Keith is no greater than Herbie or Chick (and many lesser known players for that matter, who haven't had the good fortune of such wide exposure but are equally great in their own right). Ranking artists of this caliber is pointless and ignorant IMO. They are all essentially doing the same thing, but 'funneling' it through a different set of life circumstances.

However, I think it is equally ignorant to think that Keith couldn't play the SH*T out of Maiden Voyage or Spain. Have you heard him playing with his Standards Trio? (Gary Peacock and Jack DeJohnette)His ability to play over changes and groove is second to none.


Edited by AJF (07/04/10 03:31 AM)
Edit Reason: grammar
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Disclaimer: Shigeru Kawai Artist

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#1467926 - 07/04/10 03:46 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: stores]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman


Most people on piano world, I've noticed have many labels in their 'signature'. Songs they can play job title etc.

I'd like to understand more clearly why people feel the need to use these labels, while steering clear of other labels like 'genius'.


Why don't many use labels like genius as you do? Because most people don't want to appear to be an idiot.
well, that's a good reason too.... :-)
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1467928 - 07/04/10 03:51 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: AJF]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
The age issue: If a 60 year old was lying on the internet mentioning he was 22, I would probably think he was after much younger girls! laugh Alternatively I wouldn't even attempt to ponder on his posts, it's just silly! If he was able to convince me of his reasonings, perhaps, but I seriously doubt that.

The signature/label issue: Some things can be considered facts. Elissa is a teacher, a composer and a writter (and a wonderful person, judging from her posts... :)). Other teachers also label what they do for a living. Others are very proud (and rightfully so), to finish Alfreds Book 1 so they put that on. Others are studying a Scriabin etude and want everyone to know.

For a short while I had in my signature my degrees. Then I thought that I'm appearing like a complete idiot, full of himself and took them down, leaving my website on. Kreisler helped with that idea. He said that if people want to know more, they can visit my website. And this is true.

Everything else: Communcation goes both ways. It's only what you say, but what you hear and understand as well! While obvious, it does seem that in the case of the 'genious' label and the whole idea of sharing HOW TO BE LABELED THAT seems things get a little more complicated.

At some point, Ruben, you will need to understand that it was extremely bold of you to make this topic in two forums (both reaching a high number of posts). Further everyone else should agree that Ruben is acting very mature in his postings and not flaming, swearing, complaining (a lot), etc, which really is making me enjoy these threads a tad more!
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#1467937 - 07/04/10 04:39 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: AJF]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: AJF







I disagree with this post wholeheartedly.
I do not think Keith Jarrett is an egomaniac of the 'highest sort'.



AJF, there is no disputing KJ's musical prowess. He is one of the finest pianists bar none. His devotion to the music is unquestioned.

But, like many prodigies perhaps he has not had to develop his social skills, as many people are willing to overlook his idiosyncrasies for his music. From what I have heard of his interviews and behaviour, he is highly arrogant and condescending.

Did you see the episode at the Umbria Jazz festival where he starts swearing at the audience to stop taking pictures and tells them it is "THEIR" privilege to listen to him. And that they won't play if it continues. These are the people who pay to make him rich.

The director of the festival banned him from ever playing there again. That says alot.

I've never seen this from Chick or Herbie. This isn't about ranking who's better, it's about showing respect.

You could say the same for his theatrics and grunting when he plays. Personally I don't mind them, but some people get highly annoyed. I don't see any other musician do it to the level that he does, so you can definitely control it. He just chooses not to.

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#1467952 - 07/04/10 05:28 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: AJF]
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: AJF
This post, IMO, has more 'genius' and wisdom in it than any of the posts I've read from the OP. Whether or not the OP feels that what he has discovered is some sort of 'truth' about things, all I am perceiving is smug self satisfaction which to me is indicative of an inexperienced and yes, ego driven mind.
You want proof? Look how many responses on this thread reek of ego. Ego's 'activate' other egos.
To me a true genius is someone who is FAR too concerned and occupied with the path they are on to stop and ask "Gee, am I a genius?"


I will repeat the 'genius' thing for those that missed it. Genius is a label that means nothing, it is not important. The reason I have 'Musical Genius' as my signature, is to make a statement and try to prove a point.. That point is: "All labels mean nothing but self satisfaction." And everybody is looking for satisfaction. So everybody puts labels on themselves.
Once again, "musical genius" means nothing. I do not have an inflated ego.

In this post, I state my beliefs about music and life. You can then state yours and we have the chance to learn together. If you feel there is an ego here, it is because your ego is threatened by somebody simply sharing their beliefs. Why not just share your beliefs?

E.g. If I said the sky is Red.. If you were comfortable with beliefs of the sky, you'd just explain that you believe it is blue, and tell me why, So I can learn.

This simple discussion is not happening because your ego thinks my ego is inflated and is therefor having an ego battle. But I'm not looking for an ego battle. I'm here to discuss beliefs about music, life, spirituality and whatever else. To learn.

Ego is separating yourself from somebody else, and that is not what I'm doing. I'm stating my beliefs with the understanding that we are all the same regardless of what we believe.

If our beliefs clash, please just say what you believe. If you again choose to have an ego battle, you will not get an egoistic response. Because I don't believe I am above or below you. We are equal. There is also no ego here, just me sharing my own beliefs and wanting discussion, which leads to learning.

My brain wants to thank everybody who is contributing to the discussion. "thank you for the stimulation"
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... such a vital organ

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#1467955 - 07/04/10 05:40 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: stores]
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
I'd like to understand more clearly why people feel the need to use these labels, while steering clear of other labels like 'genius'.


Why don't many use labels like genius as you do? Because most people don't want to appear to be an idiot.


Idiot is just another label that I will need to ask for a definition.

If you mean to say I have a subnormal intelligence, that suggests you feel I am below you in some way. I don't believe anybody is above or below anybody. If you do, I'd like to hear what makes somebody above or below somebody else. Share your beliefs without negativity.
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#1467956 - 07/04/10 05:46 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
hippymusicman, why you choose to 'prove' the inanity of labels in this way is mysterious to me! I'm sure that many here will not see the label as inane, but rather inanely applied. Maybe what you mean to say is that through misapplication its usefulness is devalued?

Your OP took the view that there is an approach through which people also can have those around them label them as musical geniuses, and I think that the discussion of *this approach* is what you had really intended to be the meat of the thread, rather than this rather superficial issue of whether anyone in particular is or is not a genius.

Or am I way off track?
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1467958 - 07/04/10 05:55 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: LimeFriday]
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: LimeFriday
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman


What if I now told you right now that I was lying about my age and I was actually 60..


If you said that right now - I would be thinking "Wow... this 60 year old guy sounds like he's straight out of school encountering the world for the first time"

I love your enthusiasm... I love that you are excited by your ideas - that you want to share your perspective in the hope that it will inspire the same enthusiasm you feel right now.

I remember feeling like that - I remember being exposed to ideas and perspectives that I'd never encountered before... and being simultaneously inspired and appalled by those ideas and perspectives. I remember having the desire to change the world.

What I didn't realise then and I do know now - is that most of the ideas and perspectives came people who'd lived and worked for many years - and whose ideas had been shaped and changed by experience and their own mistakes.

It's great to share your ideas - but at the same time - it's not great to believe that your ideas are the only 'way'... or that your ideas are what other should strive to achieve or understand. Most of those people you are trying to convince have been there before you.


Firstly, I never suggested my beliefs were the 'ONLY' way. I understand that beliefs are different.

I find it odd that there has been no mention of the belief that seems to be clashing with your belief..

Would you share which belief has clashed with yours and why? So that I can better understand and hopefully learn something!

The reason I said "what if I was actually 60" was to share my belief: age does not necessarily make anyone more or less knowledgeable. And using someones 'age' was simply a way to get off the topic because discussing the belief wasn't wanted.
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#1467963 - 07/04/10 06:53 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman


I will repeat the 'genius' thing for those that missed it. Genius is a label that means nothing, it is not important. The reason I have 'Musical Genius' as my signature, is to make a statement and try to prove a point.. That point is: "All labels mean nothing but self satisfaction." And everybody is looking for satisfaction. So everybody puts labels on themselves.
Once again, "musical genius" means nothing. I do not have an inflated ego.




So, if the label means nothing then there's no need for it, yet the fact that it remains as your "signature" defies your claim of "I do not live through the ego.", which, of course, you do.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1467966 - 07/04/10 07:05 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Elissa Milne]
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
hippymusicman, why you choose to 'prove' the inanity of labels in this way is mysterious to me! I'm sure that many here will not see the label as inane, but rather inanely applied. Maybe what you mean to say is that through misapplication its usefulness is devalued?

Your OP took the view that there is an approach through which people also can have those around them label them as musical geniuses, and I think that the discussion of *this approach* is what you had really intended to be the meat of the thread, rather than this rather superficial issue of whether anyone in particular is or is not a genius.Or am I way off track?


I want to share my beliefs on labels because a lot of people judge others on their labels without considering what's beneath the label. A good example is the way women are judged on their appearance without people seeing what's beneath the appearance. I wholeheartedly believe such things are external, and irrelevant.

I believe people put up labels because they wish other people to value them more... like women apply make-up. The question is, why do you feel the need to appear more valuable? The only conclusion I have is: people have an underlying feeling of being invaluable.. I believe a lot of people have this.

Focusing on external, to me is just one big burden! If you stop focusing on externals: appearance, labels, clothes, cars, facebooks, websites, race, religion, beliefs etc etc.. then there is no more competing, no more pain, no more self consciousness .. no more racism. no more conflict between people.

I feel like this.. Please don't mistake this as egoistic. I do understand everybody is equal. I am not above or below you, we are all the same. No body is invaluable!! Nobody needs to increase their value to me.

All I want to do is share my beliefs.

If you ask me why... It's because I would like to be able to discuss theories, ideas, beliefs with people without it turning into a battle of who has the better belief or the most knowledge.

Thanks.
_________________________
... such a vital organ

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#1467976 - 07/04/10 07:54 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
But some beliefs are more sound than others - this can argued and accepted by using agreed upon criteria. For instance, is it useful to believe that bridges are best built with balloons? Well, not overly useful if you are actually building a bridge, and possibly dangerous to the community at large should you ever try to actually build one.

This forum is about how to teach the piano.

The notion of 'musical genius' is one that teachers do not apply to their students, and those people who do apply it to those they meet are not in the business of teaching people how to play the piano. So your beliefs about this particular label are shared by absolutely everyone in this forum - no one thinks it applies to you!! And no one here would claim it for themselves or apply it to their students. So this is not about anyone thinking they are better than anyone else in the slightest.

On the other hand, words do have meanings, and calling yourself an elephant to prove how silly calling things elephants really is simply won't change the fact that there are elephants, and when you really do meet one it's useful to know it's not a giraffe, zebra or stingray.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1467981 - 07/04/10 08:04 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Elissa Milne]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
I should add, to make it explicit: someone saying "you're not a genius" is not a statement that necessarily emanates from *their* ego, particularly if they say it in response to your asking for a response.....

You saying that you are a genius emanates from something, and I suppose you could view a lot of these posts as reflecting people feeling that it is odd for you to make this claim.

You go on to say that labels are meaningless, but clearly this is not so - something truly meaningless would not get your attention... Labels are powerful, even when mistakenly applied. This is why there are racial vilification laws in many western democracies, why there are laws governing libel and slander, why unfair trading practice laws can prosecute businesses that choose to employ labels that mislead the public (even if this misleading was unintentional). Naming something is a powerful act - this is why in Aboriginal cultures it is not permitted to name a deceased person. There is much that is important in interpersonal communication that you are choosing to ignore in your line of reasoning.

I find this conversation interesting because it's all about finding ways to make sense of the world, and I like that this is what you are striving to do (as all of us, every day, find ourselves doing in the quest not only to lead good lives, but in order to teach well).
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1467984 - 07/04/10 08:15 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Elissa Milne]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5587
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
On the other hand, words do have meanings, and calling yourself an elephant to prove how silly calling things elephants really is simply won't change the fact that there are elephants, and when you really do meet one it's useful to know it's not a giraffe, zebra or stingray.

That's an awesome post!!
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Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#1467988 - 07/04/10 08:17 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: AJF]
danshure Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 347
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: AJF
everything AJF said

AJF

Thanks for saving me the time of a response and saying the above better than I could! NICELY put.

The only thing I'd like to add, Wizard of Oz, is that if you think that Keith is about playing ballads and Kolhn style solo piano you've severely missed the bulk of his material, which is not like that at all.

For solo piano try "Dark Intervals" or even his recent Carnegie Hall concert. Improvised counterpoint? Complex LH vamps while the right hand does whatever it wants? (and I'm not talking about the stuff on Kolhn... maybe like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPqK1JJOFxw

Keith is much more a pianist in the true sense than Chick or Herbie in terms of really knowing the instrument very deeply. He has a wider dynamic range for sure. How about this intro to All the things???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLCGWh-VZhI

or this? doesn't sound like a ballad to me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyR7zvxjDGo&feature=related

If you really want something different, try "Spirits".

And yes, I have been to several of his concerts, trio and solo. Did you know his solo piano concerts are performed acoustically (no amplification of the piano at all)? In venues the size of Carengie Hall, could you see how coughing or extraneous noise might affect things?

I was in Boston, in the closest seat to him from the entire audience, a few years ago for a trio concert. It had been clearly announced and signs posted all throughout Symphony Hall "No Photography". Yet what do a bunch of people start doing during bow? Take photos! Out of the 6-7 concerts I'd been to, this was the only one he said something to the audience, and I wonder why? I imagine anytime I'd performed in basically a dark room on stage. Something flashing in your eyes, unexpectedly, out of the darkness is not the most pleasant thing.

And here's what I mean by taken out of context. In Boston, Keith was polite about this a first. The first few bows people were taking photos and Keith Jack and Gary tried to inconspicuously ask these people to stop - something you could only see them doing from the front of the house. It was only after SEVERAL times of this Keith finally said something on the mic. Then, all you see on YouTube is Keith saying something to the audience, not everything leading up to it.
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#1468005 - 07/04/10 08:48 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman

(...)
I believe people put up labels because they wish other people to value them more... like women apply make-up. The question is, why do you feel the need to appear more valuable? The only conclusion I have is: people have an underlying feeling of being invaluable.. I believe a lot of people have this.
(...)

You are right! I definitely have an underlying feeling of being invaluable.

_________________________________________________________________
Gifted artiste
- and Pianiste
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1468220 - 07/04/10 03:30 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Ben Crosland]
findingnemo2010 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 1520
learning music is like learning another language, thats exactly what it is...thats been known..how long does it take people to read and write english, however long that takes, thats how long it takes to learn music and longer, longer i dont know why? unless u start young and keep at it, then your good
_________________________
music to me is kind of like putting together pieces of a puzzle
i call it the paino because its where i put all my pain

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#1468229 - 07/04/10 03:48 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: findingnemo2010]
al-mahed Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/09
Posts: 769
Loc: Rio de Janeiro
hippymusicman
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 90
_________________________
- Musical Genius


LOL
_________________________
Yamaha P155 Digital Piano
Learning since ~ JUN/JUL-2009

Working on: music

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#1468347 - 07/04/10 09:41 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Canonie]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Canonie
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman

(...)The question is, why do you feel the need to appear more valuable? The only conclusion I have is: people have an underlying feeling of being invaluable.. (...)
You are right! I definitely have an underlying feeling of being invaluable.
And so you are! Welcome back, Canonie. grin
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1468348 - 07/04/10 09:47 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
That point is: "All labels mean nothing but self satisfaction."
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
over time, I've come to put these labels on musicians.EYE or EAR.

hmmm...
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1468354 - 07/04/10 10:01 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: currawong]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
hehe
OT Hello Currawong and all you lovely teachers. Lovely to be back and hear all your words. I'm back to choosing repertoire again - seems to be when I gravitate to PW to procrastinate instead of learning many pages of notes - mentally draining. I've dropped in for a brief read occasionally but didn't post. Too addictive wink

And no, I didn't really change my sig line. Just pretending.
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1468356 - 07/04/10 10:03 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: currawong]
al-mahed Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/09
Posts: 769
Loc: Rio de Janeiro
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
That point is: "All labels mean nothing but self satisfaction."
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
over time, I've come to put these labels on musicians.EYE or EAR.

hmmm...



hippymusicman
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 90
_________________________
- Musical Genius



grin
_________________________
Yamaha P155 Digital Piano
Learning since ~ JUN/JUL-2009

Working on: music

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#1468410 - 07/05/10 12:09 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: al-mahed]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
Hippymusician, I dont mean to use the age label, but as a young person I do have to say you sound like a collegue of mine who is YOUNG and EXCITED about changing and making music education better. I have read through your posts and I'm going to be honest, although you make no claims of saying you are better, your post seems to be authoritative, and I personally find it ironic that you label it "Musical genius, how to be one" ... that sounds like you have the answers. Although you even say to excuse the title, the fact that you still hold it there and acknowledge how arrogant it is, it accentuates this notion of 'ego' that the teachers have put out.

That said, your post is insightful to your viewpoint. Just another thing, women do not wear make up for other people, they wear it because they feel good about it themselves, not my words either, a married man said that was the biggest thing he has ever learned since being married, and I'd have to agree with him, it's self confidence, not wanting to appease people.


I would also have to disagree about your EYE and EAR argument, i think sight reading and ear training are two skills that go hand in hand, if I may ask, where did you do your undergrad studies? Where I study BOTH skills are taught together, reading by sight and also hearing by sight, further to this imitating by hearing happens when one has an understanding of harmony.
_________________________
http://colouredsilence.wordpress.com/


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#1468579 - 07/05/10 11:29 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
hippyman, for all your posts, you haven't actually talked much of what you want to achieve musically.

Which artists do you like and listen to?

How are you practicing and what are your goals?

Are you composing, improvising?

Are you looking to perform, teach?

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