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#1468619 - 07/05/10 12:54 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Elissa Milne]
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
But some beliefs are more sound than others - this can argued and accepted by using agreed upon criteria. For instance, is it useful to believe that bridges are best built with balloons? Well, not overly useful if you are actually building a bridge, and possibly dangerous to the community at large should you ever try to actually build one.

This forum is about how to teach the piano.

The notion of 'musical genius' is one that teachers do not apply to their students, and those people who do apply it to those they meet are not in the business of teaching people how to play the piano. So your beliefs about this particular label are shared by absolutely everyone in this forum - no one thinks it applies to you!! And no one here would claim it for themselves or apply it to their students. So this is not about anyone thinking they are better than anyone else in the slightest.

On the other hand, words do have meanings, and calling yourself an elephant to prove how silly calling things elephants really is simply won't change the fact that there are elephants, and when you really do meet one it's useful to know it's not a giraffe, zebra or stingray.


I question all beliefs, especially 'sound' ones.. because the only possible outcome is more learning. Of course my questioning is backed up by reason and logic.. I'm not going to consider building a bridge out of balloons... I could definitely question the material bridges are made of. Maybe there is another material that is cheaper? more environmentally friendly? more stable? maybe recent advances in technology can contribute to creating such material. Maybe tying coloured balloons to a bridge will make it more beautiful to look at, therefor giving people more joy passing over it... increasing general happiness by 2%.. lol... you get my point.

There is no gain in thinking "concrete bridges are great. that's what everybody believes.. there is no need to question it.. it is sound."

Bridges are not my forte. But I'm very very fascinated by music and psychology.

I love trying to understand what makes people WANT to learn. What makes people love music, what makes people want to play music.. what are effective learning techniques.. and also things like why people have an underlying sense of dissatisfaction.. why people often hate their daddy.. why brothers fight with eachother... why everybody decides to block their ears out with music.. why are people greedy? .. why are people afraid? .. blah blah blah blah blah.

Welcome to my life of why. Every day is like a 15 hour brain workout. biggest work out comes from piano world... so thank you.

I'm sick of talking about the label thing. I think I've learned all I can.

Sooo back to music teaching...

I question the teaching system!!! Too many kids say they don't want to play an instrument anymore or they stopped playing an instrument.. This blows my mind.. and aches my heart. I think to myself 'poor child who has missed the essence and the beauty of music for whatever reason'

I have been trying things that appear to be very effective. That is, effective in the sense that my students love the lessons, love learning and always leave smiling. As a result of this, the students get good in the time between lessons.

My teachings are based on two units.

unit 1:
1.1 - How to enjoy a musical instrument.
1.2 - How to make learning fun.
1.3 - Breaking musical boundaries.
1.4 - Why people love music & musicians.
1.5 - Dealing with competitive musicians.

unit 2:
2.1 - How to teach yourself a musical instrument
2.2 - Teacher = motivator/external ear.
2.3 - How to create drives and motivators.
2.4 - How to analyze your own playing.
2.5 - Know what you want.

of course if they blitz unit 1.. there is usually little need for unit 2.
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#1468623 - 07/05/10 01:04 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: al-mahed]
hippymusicman Offline
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Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: al-mahed
hippymusicman
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 90
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- Musical Genius


LOL


Either you are laughing with me, or at me. I want to believe with me.... but either way I'm laughing a lot at what it's bringing out in people. It's very very funny to me! And every time somebody mentions it, it becomes that much more hilarious! It's a twisted sense of humor that comes from understanding that 'musical genius' means exactly what each person thinks it means...
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#1468633 - 07/05/10 01:30 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Wizard of Oz]
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
hippyman, for all your posts, you haven't actually talked much of what you want to achieve musically.

Which artists do you like and listen to?

How are you practicing and what are your goals?

Are you composing, improvising?

Are you looking to perform, teach?



Wizard, you've asked almost this exact question before! . . .

I'm not looking to achieve. I don't feel the need to satisfy anything.. I'm simply creating as much beautiful music as I can to give to the world.

I don't listen to much music. But when I hear a new artist with interesting ideas I usually play it over and over until I understand how it was created. Then leave it. At the moment, I'm interested in the singing style, melody patterns and harmonies of 'the shins' album 'chute too narrow'.

I'm composing a musical, Teaching yr 11&12 music performance, in a corporate cover band, I recently starting write jingles for an advertising agency, I have already had a lot of experience performing in original bands but will consider creating more music to share in that way as well.

I feel like I've achieved what I want out of music. Because when I stop focusing on what to do next and just listen to where I'm at... I think, as a child, this is far more than I dreamed of.. I feel satisfied with music. arguably with life as well.. but it's hard to tell.
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#1468668 - 07/05/10 02:50 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
hippo, it's cause you never answered them, at least not properly.

Funny how you haven't bothered even asking one question since coming to the forums. You have a certain way of thinking, but you seem to not to want to be curious and learn, just that you know how music is and that's it.

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#1468807 - 07/05/10 06:22 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
HMM may I ask, how can you compose a musical when you claim to be a 'complete' ear musician? Can you notate your music? How can you compose for other musicians when you cant write your own music down? Where did you study music? And why don't you listen to much music, that is the golden rule of any musician, that is, to listen to music.
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#1468871 - 07/05/10 08:24 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
hippymusicman, this sentence: "welcome to my world of why" (and I note in passing the probably inadvertent implication that curiosity is uniquely yours) interested me greatly in your posts above, and I'd like to share some thoughts about living in a world of why.

In my experience (of which I hope to have much more), students who spend a lot of time asking "why?" consciously believe themselves to be expediting their learning through the interjection of this question throughout their lessons and their lives. They are mistaken. "Why?" is often deeply contextual, and asking "why is the sky blue" will result in a different answer depending on the pre-existing understanding held by the individual. "Why?" can take a lifetime to answer, there can always be deeper layers of cause, motivation and consequence.

There is a different curious question that would help genuinely curious students learn much faster - and that question is "how?"

"How?" is like why, but practical.

"How do I make that [staccato] sound?"
"How does the pedal work?"
"How do I modulate from this key to that?"
"How does this piece relate to that piece?"
"How do I play this tune on the flute?"
"How do I notate this music for banjo?"
"How does this cadence make me feel?"
"How can I play five notes in the time of three?"
"How do I read this chord chart?"

Students who live in a world of how? find the answers to 'why?' embedded in each and every one of their experiences.
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Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
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#1468873 - 07/05/10 08:27 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: Rebekah.L
HMM may I ask, how can you compose a musical when you claim to be a 'complete' ear musician? Can you notate your music? How can you compose for other musicians when you cant write your own music down? Where did you study music? And why don't you listen to much music, that is the golden rule of any musician, that is, to listen to music.
Irving Berlin was illiterate too (musically). Didn't seem to get in the way. But then he worked with people who had gained the magic skill of writing music notation and could communicate his ideas with others on his behalf.

NB: the magic skill of writing music notation is not bestowed upon mortals by Sibelius.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1468897 - 07/05/10 09:19 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Elissa Milne]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
That is true, in fact I've noticed composition students at the con use Sibelius a lot. But yes, notation software in my experience notates things 'too accurately' ... The scores look like something ridiculous and unplayable!
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#1468940 - 07/05/10 11:31 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Wizard of Oz]
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
hippo, it's cause you never answered them, at least not properly.

Funny how you haven't bothered even asking one question since coming to the forums. You have a certain way of thinking, but you seem to not to want to be curious and learn, just that you know how music is and that's it.


I pose my belief.. then receive other posed beliefs. And this is how I learn. All I 'know' is how music is for me.. what I can learn from is hearing how music is for others.

Please believe me when I say, "I am here to learn not have battles."
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#1468948 - 07/05/10 11:59 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
ELISSA MILNE! How I love what you just wrote...

Your 'how' theory is infinitely stimulating! I loved reading it because It was pure belief on belief. Had nothing to do with me as a person. So Thank you.

I believe people get caught up in the 'how' because they see no answer for 'why'... therefore covering up the unanswerable 'why' with the more easily answerable 'how'.. somewhere along the line people can answer the 'why' for themselves.

I would love to hear your thoughts on how focusing on 'how' brings students to answering 'why' through their journey and experiences!!! I ABSOLUTELY LOVE THIS IDEA!grin !!

I feel it's almost worth turning it into one of those famous wise quotes written by "anon" (because labels are not important , hehe)

So long as it's a 'memorable quote'.. what about something amazingly simple and in many ways corny:

Only by living in the 'how' are we drawn closer to the 'why' ~ Anon

Or do you like this one better:

Only by living in the 'how' are we drawn closer to the 'why' ~ Elissa Milne
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#1468972 - 07/06/10 01:12 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: Rebekah.L
HMM may I ask, how can you compose a musical when you claim to be a 'complete' ear musician? Can you notate your music? How can you compose for other musicians when you cant write your own music down? Where did you study music? And why don't you listen to much music, that is the golden rule of any musician, that is, to listen to music.


I can't notate my music without using music notating software.

The confusion of how it's possible to create without the eye part raises an interesting idea.. I think notated music has been seen as the 'only way' for a while .. but as technology improves, I can now record audio files, layer them, edit them, create midi patters (very similar to how one would edit the music on paper) But instead of having to read the music back each time, it's just a matter of pressing 'play'. Then focused listening is possible... and fine tuning the sound I imagine is a lot easier. Instead of calling for a string quartet to rehearse parts and play with what sounds good, it's all done on the computer. Download the sounds for strings, then mix and match and edit.

At this point they obviously don't sound as good as real strings but it works fine for the composing process. That being said... It's easy to see the direction things are going in.. it's only a matter of time before a fake instrument can not be differentiated from a real one in terms of audio recordings.

There are some 'virtual pianos' out there that are becoming amazingly, scarily similar to real grand pianos, Because they are created by recording each note and each length of note and each volume of note on REAL grand pianos. e.g. This one is amongst the leaders of the pack I believe... http://www.artvista.net/Virtual_Grand_Piano.html

There are "virtual instruments" for just about every instrument. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep-suUtxIrA&feature=related.

So essentially pressing each key on the keyboard triggers a recording of a real recording of the real instrument.

basically, I can create all the songs with all the parts with music software first, then the very last thing to do is have it transcribed to paper for the one purpose of having it recreated by other musicians in a live setting.. with technology, while it doesn't sound completely 'real' now, the creation process doesn't seem to be held back by the fact.
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#1469000 - 07/06/10 02:49 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
Yeah thats true, sure software makes things possible but software is not always and completely the answer, I find some things inhibiting one is that the music is recorded as 'too' precise that it is unplayable by other musicians. I'm curious to where you studied, because I would think that you would HAVE to read and use notation when you studied...
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#1469083 - 07/06/10 06:47 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
LimeFriday Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 303
Loc: Australia
Just a question - what classes are you teaching Year 11 and 12?

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#1469091 - 07/06/10 07:27 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: LimeFriday]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
(just a little tangent .. I'm starting to notice quite a few Aussie members! This is wonderful! .. Hopefully none of my teachers read this... LOL )


Edited by Rebekah.L (07/06/10 08:49 AM)
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#1469112 - 07/06/10 08:29 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Rebekah.L
(just a little tangent .. I'm starting to notice quite a few Aussie members! This is wonderful! .. Hopefully done of my teachers read this... LOL )
Rebekah!!
You should be practising your scales!
wink
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Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1469184 - 07/06/10 10:55 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: LimeFriday]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: LimeFriday
Just a question - what classes are you teaching Year 11 and 12?
I can guess.

Hey, I love this! (posted in PC)
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#1469573 - 07/06/10 11:21 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
@ Caroline LOL
and KBK that is classic!
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#1472160 - 07/11/10 05:55 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: Rebekah.L
Yeah thats true, sure software makes things possible but software is not always and completely the answer, I find some things inhibiting one is that the music is recorded as 'too' precise that it is unplayable by other musicians. I'm curious to where you studied, because I would think that you would HAVE to read and use notation when you studied...


I didn't study at any institution. I just played a lot and learned as I went. I'd hear songs and imitate them, hear what sounds good and always be trying new things.
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#1472162 - 07/11/10 06:03 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: LimeFriday]
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: LimeFriday
Just a question - what classes are you teaching Year 11 and 12?


- Instrumental music: which is basically helping the kids with guitar, piano, drums and bass when they want it.

- Music performance: which is everything from song structures, set structures, stage presence... how to use dynamics and intensity in each song and in the whole set. How to set up equipment effectively.. tips for improving the live show e.g. Audience participation, not leaving gaps between songs, style variations, big endings, how to get the sound balanced with volume and EQ and amp positioning etc.

Basically... they have a band with an act... and I help make it translate to an audience and for their examiners.
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#1472172 - 07/11/10 06:44 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
hippymusicman Offline
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Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: Rebekah.L
Hippymusician, I dont mean to use the age label, but as a young person I do have to say you sound like a collegue of mine who is YOUNG and EXCITED about changing and making music education better. I have read through your posts and I'm going to be honest, although you make no claims of saying you are better, your post seems to be authoritative, and I personally find it ironic that you label it "Musical genius, how to be one" ... that sounds like you have the answers. Although you even say to excuse the title, the fact that you still hold it there and acknowledge how arrogant it is, it accentuates this notion of 'ego' that the teachers have put out.

Just another thing, women do not wear make up for other people, they wear it because they feel good about it themselves, not my words either, a married man said that was the biggest thing he has ever learned since being married, and I'd have to agree with him, it's self confidence, not wanting to appease people.


1- I would like to meet this young excited colleague of yours!

2- The title was created to be ironic.. It also shows me all the people who are able to see passed labels. whether or not people were going to respond without attacking is interesting in itself! Some spoke.. some refused to speak and defended. That is interesting.

3- women and makeup.. hmmm...

Why do you feel the need to wear makeup for self confidence? I have to assume, that you believe there is a 'right' and 'wrong' way to look. You believe that without makeup you look 'wrong'. This is self consciousness.

Who is to say what looks 'right' and 'wrong'? I believe it is other people, but you are agreeing with them.

Why are so many people self conscious? I believe it's because people focus on external elements and therefor miss what is important. The internal. In this case, it seems you can not see through your own exterior either.

Do you believe that if everybody in the world suddenly believed 'makeup is ugly', you would still wear it because it's about YOU.. and not appeasing other people?

My beliefs clash with "women do not wear makeup for other people". And so I am interested
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#1472306 - 07/11/10 12:49 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
yumo Offline
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Registered: 07/02/10
Posts: 70
I think it's interesting that you're conducting experiments on people, and classifying them based on the reactions you get, or don't get.

Carry on, I've got stuff to do. While it is sometimes fun to listen to somebody who sounds like they just got done with a 2 day acid trip that concluded with some sort of psychological/transcendental/existential enlightenment, it gets old, fast.


Edited by yumo (07/11/10 12:53 PM)
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#1472310 - 07/11/10 01:07 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: yumo]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
+1!
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#1472327 - 07/11/10 01:42 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: keyboardklutz]
Ben Crosland Online   content
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Registered: 03/11/10
Posts: 420
Loc: Worcester, UK
+1 from me, too - and thread win IMO laugh
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#1472702 - 07/12/10 03:40 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: yumo]
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: yumo
I think it's interesting that you're conducting experiments on people, and classifying them based on the reactions you get, or don't get.

Carry on, I've got stuff to do. While it is sometimes fun to listen to somebody who sounds like they just got done with a 2 day acid trip that concluded with some sort of psychological/transcendental/existential enlightenment, it gets old, fast.


I 'conduct experiments' on people to better understand people. From understanding other people, I can better understand myself. I do also 'conduct experiments' on myself and question why I do things etc.

Understandably, It may look like I am classifying and judging people. I'm not. I'm not doing this to make myself feel above anybody. I believe we are all the same underneath the incessant thinking patterns and mindsets.

I am interested in hearing why the ideas were at first 'fun' but now annoying. What part of the sharing of ideas made them annoying? Or at what point in reading the ideas did you feel annoyed? Which of my beliefs are you annoyed at?
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#1472710 - 07/12/10 04:18 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
yumo Offline
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Registered: 07/02/10
Posts: 70
Probably your deep thoughts on makeup. Even though you and I might agree that if we were women, we probably wouldn't choose to wear any or much makeup, or to apply it to our hands instead of our faces.

I enjoyed considering your ideas about music, listening, conformance, etc.

I used to enjoy a song called the Screams of Passion, written by Prince, I think, but the version I enjoyed most was performed by The Family. One of the lines, as I recall, goes something like "A robin sings a masterpiece and lives and dies unheard." I always enjoyed that line, and your initial thoughts about putting down an instrument and listening made me think about that, and all of the works of art that exist, unappreciated.

But there is a line between sharing ideas and pontificating, and whether or not you intended to do so, and without regard to whether you actually did so, it seems to me that you crossed that line. Many people cross that line--some more than others--but it's no unusual or great sin. I expect, rather than think about whether or not you've crossed that line, and whether the annoyance you detect is justified, you'll think about why I and others feel the way we do, and claim it's for your own edification. Then you'll ask why I have this expectation. And so on.

Very tiresome.

It might be more productive to apply your beliefs to your own life, accomplish greatness in whatever form you desire, be that acclaim or irrelevance, and then let those results speak for your ideas, even at the risk of going unheard.

To everybody else, there is an acronym that expresses an idea: DNFTT. I have violated this, and I apologize.


Edited by yumo (07/12/10 04:19 AM)
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#1472712 - 07/12/10 04:22 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: yumo]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Yumo, I PM'd you.
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#1472719 - 07/12/10 04:52 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: yumo]
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: yumo
Probably your deep thoughts on makeup. Even though you and I might agree that if we were women, we probably wouldn't choose to wear any or much makeup, or to apply it to our hands instead of our faces.

I enjoyed considering your ideas about music, listening, conformance, etc.

I used to enjoy a song called the Screams of Passion, written by Prince, I think, but the version I enjoyed most was performed by The Family. One of the lines, as I recall, goes something like "A robin sings a masterpiece and lives and dies unheard." I always enjoyed that line, and your initial thoughts about putting down an instrument and listening made me think about that, and all of the works of art that exist, unappreciated.

But there is a line between sharing ideas and pontificating, and whether or not you intended to do so, and without regard to whether you actually did so, it seems to me that you crossed that line. Many people cross that line--some more than others--but it's no unusual or great sin. I expect, rather than think about whether or not you've crossed that line, and whether the annoyance you detect is justified, you'll think about why I and others feel the way we do, and claim it's for your own edification. Then you'll ask why I have this expectation. And so on.

Very tiresome.

It might be more productive to apply your beliefs to your own life, accomplish greatness in whatever form you desire, be that acclaim or irrelevance, and then let those results speak for your ideas, even at the risk of going unheard.

To everybody else, there is an acronym that expresses an idea: DNFTT. I have violated this, and I apologize.


You say I have crossed the line sharing my deep thoughts on makeup. I don't understand this at all. Until I understand why some topics are considered fine to share beliefs on, while other topics are not, Until I understand where the line is, I don't think I can stop accidentally crossing it!

Please help me understand where that line is so I don't cross it in the future and create any further annoyance.

At the moment, I don't feel I am crossing any line, but rather, the topic I am expressing beliefs about is crossing a line.

I also believe that some people can be sensitive to certain topics. Therefore, they react differently to discussion about certain topics. Forgive me for putting you in this basket. I just don't quite understand this yet.

The idea that some topics are fine and some are over a line is confusing. It's confusing because other people are happy to discuss all sorts of topics like makeup etc they find it stimulating and interesting, not threatening, pontificating or tiresome.

help.
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#1472986 - 07/12/10 03:09 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
JimF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: south florida
Quote:
DNFTT


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#1472996 - 07/12/10 03:52 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
eweiss Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
You say I have crossed the line sharing my deep thoughts on makeup. I don't understand this at all. Until I understand why some topics are considered fine to share beliefs on, while other topics are not, Until I understand where the line is, I don't think I can stop accidentally crossing it!

You didn't cross 'the' line HM, you crossed his line. I don't have a problem with what you wrote because I understand you wanted to open up discussion. You just didn't do it in the way some might approve of. Good for you. Keep posting and don't let other's opinions or deragatory comments sway you.
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#1473060 - 07/12/10 05:18 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Wizard of Oz]
bitWrangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1789
Loc: Central TX
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
I don't like to have a rating system. Because a rating system holds no purpose. In my mind, nobody is better than anybody. Everybody is as they are.


Well you may want to think that, but there are certainly certain "ratings" that are quantitative measures (e.g. faster) where there are people that are "better" than other people. As well, even with piano there are more quantitative measures, e.g. "person A is better at playing the music as written than person B", and I'm not talking about minor variances, the _fact_ is that my daughter can play Clair de Lune "better" than I can (considering I can't play it at all). And again, careful not to be exclusive in your inclusiveness. Though you claim ratings hold no purpose, that obviously is not true since by making that statement you are assigning value to a particular belief over another, you've "rated" them and choose the one that was "better" for you. Human beings label, rate, make assumptions, etc because that's the way our grey matter works (yours too).

Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
I believe the ego is speaking when there is any intent to separate one being from another. This is not an attack, but I believe your post did this. It is not an existential crisis. It happens all the time with just about everyone.


The "ego" is not just a defense mechanism nor is it's only purpose to "separate one being from another". The more extremes of the word may imply this (e.g. "egotistical", "ego maniacal") but the word ego by itself does not necessarily.

Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
Imagine telling a blind person they look beautiful. The response might be "what makes a person say such things?" That is how I feel when someone calls me names like 'genius'.. Or 'attractive' for that matter. "that's not needed here because I don't feel down about it in the first place... but I'm curious as to why you want to say it"


As someone else has mentioned, someone calling you "a genius" or "attractive" is relative to the person assigning you those labels only. If someone is inclined to use such terminology because it describes the context in which they've assigned particular attributes they perceive in you why is that somehow related to your particular reaction. Are you also implying that you don't find anyone or anything more attractive/beautiful/aesthetically pleasing than anything/one else? Do you never have the emotion of "admiration"? Do you honestly get the same emotion from every single piece of music you listen to?

Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
I 'll explain again. "Musical genius" is a label that means nothing. e.g. A baby can call me a musical genius. It therefor has no merit. Musical genius = not important/nothing.


Just because a baby can assign the label to you, it doesn't make the label itself meaningless. In the context of the baby, you _are_ a musical genius. It sounds like the concept that you are discounting is that the majority of labels are relative and contextual. If a pauper considers me rich and a billionaire considers me poor, does it make either label meaningless, no, in each context they are correct. If you use measurable labels (e.g. poor = those making below 50% of average median income) then you can ascribe a less relativistic label.

Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
The reason I have 'Musical Genius' as my signature, is to make a statement and try to prove a point.. That point is: "All labels mean nothing but self satisfaction." And everybody is looking for satisfaction. So everybody puts labels on themselves.


Again I would disagree, to make an all encompassing statement "All labels" actually defeats your argument vs "proving" it. Not all, and let's be specific here, self ascribed labels are for "self satisfaction", to say so shows a lack of understanding of human nature and human interaction (and forum rules wink ).

Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
E.g. If I said the sky is Red.. If you were comfortable with beliefs of the sky, you'd just explain that you believe it is blue, and tell me why, So I can learn.


But you're not saying "the sky is red", you're saying "the sky has no color and any attempt to label it a particular color is wrong". We can talk about more concrete measurements (e.g. light wavelength) and then we can come to an agreement about what labels we decide to assign those wavelengths and then we can agree on a particular label to use.

Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
I want to share my beliefs on labels because a lot of people judge others on their labels without considering what's beneath the label. A good example is the way women are judged on their appearance without people seeing what's beneath the appearance. I wholeheartedly believe such things are external, and irrelevant.

I believe people put up labels because they wish other people to value them more... like women apply make-up. The question is, why do you feel the need to appear more valuable? The only conclusion I have is: people have an underlying feeling of being invaluable.. I believe a lot of people have this.

Focusing on external, to me is just one big burden! If you stop focusing on externals: appearance, labels, clothes, cars, facebooks, websites, race, religion, beliefs etc etc.. then there is no more competing, no more pain, no more self consciousness .. no more racism. no more conflict between people.


But you yourself are doing exactly what you are ascribing to others. You are making assumptions based purely on "labels" on how people view themselves. You say if one uses labels that one must be a certain way, you've now "labeled" them based on external criteria (posts on this forum). People use from 0 to (n) number of criteria when it comes to "judging" things, external factors play a part in this as well as "internal" factors. Different people have different weights on each of those factors. Why is being attracted to someone for their "sense of humor" any better or worse than liking someone for the shape of their body? Either way some criterion is used to make an assessment that will eventually end up excluding some and including others?

And lastly, what about human nature leads you to believe that any type of focus on "non-external" attributes will lead to "no more competing, no more pain, no more self consciousness"? So if I focus on someones belief system or skills of logical analysis that will make me not want to classify, categorize, label, like, dislike them? I think that will not be the eventual outcome.

Anyway, back to music. I think it's great to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. The "classic" method of music training is certainly not for everybody and I applaud and encourage those who can figure out ways to make a living teaching those who don't fit that mold. As for actually contributing to this thread, I think that one area that is often overlooked is context and background. When it comes to getting my family members more interested in things that they might not find otherwise interesting is to provide some context and background. For example, I listen to a lot of opera, not exactly most peoples favorite form of music. I would play it in the car when I drove the kids to school in the mornings. Generally they would just read or zone out. One morning when one of my more favorite pieces was playing ("Un bel di vedremo") I described what the song was actually about to the kids and explained what the various parts were (from what I could remember). This instantly made my daughter more interested (alas my son was not impressed smile ). I did this with several other of my favorites and she now has much more interest in opera. I've done this as well with my wife and sports/motorsports and it actually works quite well. I think it creates a more emotionally involvement thereby drawing the person in more. I know that often teachers are happy if students can remember the name and composer of the piece and any type of background/context for the piece itself is never mentioned. Perhaps as the students get older and have to "get into the piece" more, but not at an earlier age.

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