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#1464667 - 06/28/10 10:26 PM Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Excuse the seemingly arrogant title..

I can't really claim that I am a 'Musical Genius' (whatever that means) confused .. All I can say is others have labeled me like that. This is my article that tries to explain the path to 'people labeling you a musical genius.'

I'll start by attempting to define my label of "musical genius" and why it's there.

I guess it's because I'm able to learn musical instruments much much faster than other people. Eg. Normally, I can pickup and learn a new instrument in a couple of weeks and play it to a similar standard of someone who has been learning for years. This has given me the power to take up every instrument I can get my hands on. I can also create songs that express emotions that people relate with and therefor fall in love with .. I'm able to imitate most melodies and chord patterns usually instantaneously, but otherwise after a few seconds of listening. I was never taught anything, I think is another big contributing factor.

I'll try to explain how I got to this point and why people call me different.


Early on in my life, I posed a few questions..

QUESTION 1
'what is the difference between speaking and playing an instrument?'
Answer: "NOT MUCH!!"
On a basic level, they are both just expression of feeling..
- Speaking is expression via the mouth
- Music is expression via an instrument...

QUESTION 2
'Why is learning how to speak so much easier than learning an instrument? Why does and instrument take so much longer for some and come naturally to others?'
Answer: I narrowed it down to 2 reasons, it's TAUGHT COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY and It's LEARNED WITH DIFFERENT MIND SETS

Let's see ..

Speaking is learned instinctively because of a need to express emotion.. It's almost entirely learned by imitation. The child's learning environment is one that is surrounded by people speaking. Usually the parents will be encouraging and supportive of first words.. There is also joy in communicating with the child forevermore. Speaking is a big part of life.
The child quickly figures out that speaking is a very useful tool for communicating with others.
The drive to learn is HUGE because the child understands the value of being able to speak is HUGE!
The result: all children become competent speakers.

The way I learned music was unmistakeably similar to the this! I could even substitute all the words 'SPEAK' with 'PLAY' and have a very accurate description of my music learning environment.

The Mindset to begin with was 'People enjoy what I'm doing, give people enjoyment'.

There are certain areas of learning that become subconscious to everyone. We learn more about our language by simply hearing it spoken. We hear phrases, we hear which words go with other words, we hear how others construct effective sentences. We then use the tools to create our own words and sentences. There isn't any kind of conscious focus on the learning, It happens underneath the brains thoughts.

This is very very similar to the way I learn music. I hear melodies, I hear rhythms, I hear how words and melodies are connected, I notice how other musicians construct effective songs and why they are effective. This happens underneath thought. I can however, bring myself to think about any of these points and get a truly focused idea on certain areas and develop conscious tools to use, but it's not essential. I then either 'feel it' or I can use the conscious tools to craft my own songs.

I soon discovered that I didn't need to be at the instrument to learn how to play it... and the most improvement was made when I was AWAY from the instrument! (others are often shocked by this).
The theory (briefly): focusing on the instrument creates too much unnecessary thinking. The focus should be on the music in your head and you should eventually not need to think about the instrument at all. Creating a fast flow from your brain through your hands and out through the instrument is the key, or in other words, connecting your brain to the instrument with a time gap of zero.

So learning any instrument for me happens in my head.. not at the instrument. When there is silence in my head, I can imagine a song, have it play in my head, imagine the instrument, learn how to play it visually, then sit down and play it through, first time.

Conclusion:
Music is like speaking. We're all naturally gifted, genius speakers.. because of the way we learned it the environment we learned it in, and the mindsets we had towards learning it.

The primary goal with learning any instrument (in my opinion) should be to first understand that the instrument is not a chore.. but rather some kind of magical external voice box that is FUUUUN and USEFUL and BEAUTIFUL!creates HAPPINESS in the player and the listener.

When music is put into the 'school' box, it is treated like a chore.. and although you can get good, you may not love learning it or enjoy playing it as much.


==========================================

My theory on how to get labeled a 'musical genius:

Step 1 - Put down the instrument. Understand what music is. Learn to LOVE music first! Listen to birds and other animals communicating with each other. Know that this is music.. Know that instruments they are gateways to the feelings and emotions of other living, breathing people like yourself. Know that they also act as a gateway for your own feelings and emotions, letting them escape out of your mind and into ears of others. Know the power of music. Know the gateway is instruments.

Step 2 - Let music run wild in your mind. Be conscious of your own emotions, and start to transform them into sounds, melodies, rhythms and so on.. hear them in your mind.. keep practicing this until every emotion you feel, is instantaneously transformed into a noise that is then let loose to fly around in your mind. (Singing, humming and tapping is a great place to start.)

Step 3 - Once you understand what music really is.. and have it brewing madly in your mind.. then you can work at treating your instrument of choice like an external human organ (like the heart or voice box.) Focus deeply on the sounds that the instrument can make.. Relate the sound in your brain to the sound of your instrument/external organ. Try to make the connection between the brain and the instrument as strong as possible.. (singing what you play, as you play it then try to reduce the mind to instrument time gap to zero.)

Mindset
You and the instrument are going to become one completed machine that expels your emotions. You understand that the instrument is more aesthetically pleasing than speaking or crying.. You understand that this completed machine means no longer having to leave emotions to be UN-felt.. It becomes an easy form of expression (something rare for most men) You will understand the joy of this when you have experienced it. You will learn to love and relate to your noise... others will then also learn to love and relate to your noise.. When you get there, you will understand that the following sentence is now extremely shallow and mean little in comparison to what you have already achieved .. but people will say it anyway:
"wow ... you're a musical genius..."

whatever that means... smile

- Ruben
_________________________
... such a vital organ

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#1464722 - 06/28/10 11:47 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
IramChZ Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 47
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman

Step 1 - Put down the instrument. Understand what music is. Learn to LOVE music first!


Wait, is this a quote from The Music Man?

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#1464723 - 06/28/10 11:48 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Hey there hippyman, this is more like an essay of your world view than a discussion starter.

But I'll participate!

I reckon being called a genius simply comes down to being able to do something easily that others cannot do. If everyone could play instruments the way you do no one would call you a genius. The term is as much about what other people cannot do as it is about what you can. Change your context and you might find even more people call you a genius, or none at all.

And there are many ways to impress people! I think it's fabulous that you've taken the time to outline your preferred route, but some people get called 'musical genius' because they can read music at sight, or because they can play something they've heard only once by ear, and so forth.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1464751 - 06/29/10 12:43 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: IramChZ]
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: IramChZ
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman

Step 1 - Put down the instrument. Understand what music is. Learn to LOVE music first!


Wait, is this a quote from The Music Man?


It's nothing but a bunch of words that fell out of my brain.
_________________________
... such a vital organ

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#1464771 - 06/29/10 01:25 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Elissa Milne]
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Yea sorry about the title, I'm not really interested in the term 'musical genius' at all... it's just a man made label that means very little.

I'm interested in hearing opinions about the final 3 steps and mind sets towards learning an instrument.
_________________________
... such a vital organ

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#1464774 - 06/29/10 01:36 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11803
Loc: Canada
It would be helpful to hear examples of your playing, and see examples of the music you have written.

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#1464778 - 06/29/10 01:52 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: keystring]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
hey hippymusicman, you play any jazz or improvisation? Let's hear some of your music man!

Genius isn't a term I'd use. More like master. Herbie Hancock, Keith Jarrett, Bill Evans, Chick Corea, Oscar, Miles, Wayne. Those guys had it.


You might just be very good at learning new instruments. Doesn't make you a genius, just a fast learner.

Another thought, virtuosos aren't necessarily masters. They might have the technique, but the emotion and expression is another thing.

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#1464779 - 06/29/10 01:54 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Hal Galper, a jazz teacher says the piano isn't the instrument, YOU are. It's just wood and wool and felt.

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#1464839 - 06/29/10 05:15 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Ejay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/24/09
Posts: 216
Loc: U.K.
Perhaps I'm getting too cynical,
but when are you going to post the link to the product you are trying to sell us ?
If not selling a product, then why repeatedly making duplicate posts ?

I thought I was in the adult beginners forum when I read this, I really don't think teachers will be unaware of how to develop musicality and musical appreciation.
_________________________
Music was my refuge. I could crawl into the space between the notes and curl my back to loneliness.
Maya Angelou


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#1464883 - 06/29/10 07:15 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Ejay]
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
I recently got a job teaching year 11&12 Music performance.. and since then have had my eyes opened to what goes on behind the scenes at the teaching system.. the reality is the teachers are there for one reason, to make money, they fulfill tasks designed by the superior. They lose the ability to care about each child's education and focus more on the children getting good grades. And don't get me started on GRADES... In my opinion they usually teach the kids exactly how to pass exams. and no more.

I'm not suggesting the teachers here don't know what's going on... if anything I have found REAL teachers here! hoping to discuss some brilliant new innovative theories for teaching.

I know you're out there.
_________________________
... such a vital organ

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#1464894 - 06/29/10 07:58 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Ejay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/24/09
Posts: 216
Loc: U.K.
Okies, it is just that cross posting is usually considered bad etiquette online, and is a tool used by spammers.Sorry if I was cynical, but without tone of voice, internet communication can be difficult. Your posts came across as rather full of self importance to me, when you were perhaps just being enthusiastic.

Re school teaching. Sadly most teachers begin with the same enthusiasm, ideals and ideas as yourself. I know , here in the UK, the pressure to meet government curriculum standards, OFSTED inspections and regulations, league tables and the pressure to meet exam standards, leaves teachers with very little time to extract the real talent and individual creative abilities of their students. It is understandable when they become exhausted and weary of the curriculum and bureaucratic red tape.
_________________________
Music was my refuge. I could crawl into the space between the notes and curl my back to loneliness.
Maya Angelou


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#1464895 - 06/29/10 07:59 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
You chaps should hear me play the violin ...
OK ... so you really want to hear ...
But ... where have all the people gone? (works every time!!)

Playing the violin is good for unnerving crass neighbours ... the cruel sound of scraped cat-gut has them no-good critters heading for the hills ... BTW I’m also good at making bacon and eggs ... just thought you chaps ought to know.

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#1464900 - 06/29/10 08:16 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
I recently got a job teaching year 11&12 Music performance.. and since then have had my eyes opened to what goes on behind the scenes at the teaching system.. the reality is the teachers are there for one reason, to make money, they fulfill tasks designed by the superior. They lose the ability to care about each child's education and focus more on the children getting good grades. And don't get me started on GRADES... In my opinion they usually teach the kids exactly how to pass exams. and no more.

I'm not suggesting the teachers here don't know what's going on... if anything I have found REAL teachers here! hoping to discuss some brilliant new innovative theories for teaching.

I know you're out there.
Hippymusicman, you are getting a behind the scenes look at your school (and a few others I would expect) in the Victorian education system (which has significant differences in curriculum to the music program in NSW and in QLD, for instance). Further, school music is a different situation to instrumental tuition (private) for a range of reasons. [If you are working at a private school the teachers will be under all kinds of pressure to get specific results with the students, irrespective of their talents or interests, and while I can understand this being momentarily shocking, you need to appreciate that most parents who send their children to these schools choose them because they want particular outcomes (as offered by the school).]

And finally, I've never met a serious piano teacher who couldn't have made a better living another way - to say that they do it for the money is about the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1464915 - 06/29/10 09:06 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Elissa Milne]
Ben Crosland Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/10
Posts: 421
Loc: Worcester, UK
Whilst there may well be some worthwhile sentiment to your 3 'steps', they are pretty meaningless by themselves, and only really of potential value to certain subsets of musician.

The two most important steps to 'musical genius', both completely missing from your program, are:

Step 1) Be born with the prerequisite abilities to make mastering a musical instrument of any kind easy enough for to you bother with step 2.

Step 2) Spend an inordinate amount of time practising.



Edited by Ben Crosland (06/29/10 09:07 AM)
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Sound Designer

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Easy Christmas Jazz

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#1464921 - 06/29/10 09:18 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Ben Crosland Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/10
Posts: 421
Loc: Worcester, UK
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman

Step 1 - Put down the instrument.



This is the bit that really cracks me up - you post this in a teacher's forum?? I can only begin to imagine how many music teachers would read that and think "yeah, right - be nice if they'd actually picked up their instrument once in a while!" grin


Edited by Ben Crosland (06/29/10 09:19 AM)
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Sound Designer

Cool Beans!

Easy Christmas Jazz

YouTube channel




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#1464925 - 06/29/10 09:24 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Ben Crosland]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Ben Crosland
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman

Step 1 - Put down the instrument.



This is the bit that really cracks me up - you post this in a teacher's forum?? I can only begin to imagine how many music teachers would read that and think "yeah, right - be nice if they'd actually picked up their instrument once in a while!" grin
Actually I agree with him here. Trouble is I don't think he understands why.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1464927 - 06/29/10 09:27 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
I recently got a job teaching year 11&12 Music performance.. and since then have had my eyes opened to what goes on behind the scenes at the teaching system..
No. You have to really be there to see the 'reality'. Get yourself a PGCE (assuming you have a degree), teach for a few years, then tell us about the realities. You're not behind the scenes, you just happen to have a ring side seat.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1464929 - 06/29/10 09:45 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: keyboardklutz]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5551
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Ben Crosland
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman

Step 1 - Put down the instrument.



This is the bit that really cracks me up - you post this in a teacher's forum?? I can only begin to imagine how many music teachers would read that and think "yeah, right - be nice if they'd actually picked up their instrument once in a while!" grin
Actually I agree with him here. Trouble is I don't think he understands why.


+1
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#1464932 - 06/29/10 09:49 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12139
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
I recently got a job teaching year 11&12 Music performance.. and since then have had my eyes opened to what goes on behind the scenes at the teaching system.. the reality is the teachers are there for one reason, to make money, they fulfill tasks designed by the superior. They lose the ability to care about each child's education and focus more on the children getting good grades. And don't get me started on GRADES... In my opinion they usually teach the kids exactly how to pass exams. and no more.

I'm not suggesting the teachers here don't know what's going on... if anything I have found REAL teachers here! hoping to discuss some brilliant new innovative theories for teaching.

I know you're out there.


I agree with your assessment for the most part, within the university setting. I have witnessed first-hand the squabbling and political mumbo-jumbo that goes on, and that's why I'm a self-employed teacher. Not all teachers are like this, even in universities, so I'd be careful about how much generalizing you do.

Also about your list of 3 things, this is actually what is done in Kindermusik and the like. Kodaly, Orff, Dalcroze and Suzuki all had this thought and many programs are modeled after their ideas, many combining them into one program. The younger the child is exposed to music in this exploratory way (process oriented vs. product oriented), the more natural it seems to them as they get older and go into serious study of music.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#1464952 - 06/29/10 10:28 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5551
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
the reality is the teachers are there for one reason, to make money, they fulfill tasks designed by the superior. They lose the ability to care about each child's education and focus more on the children getting good grades. And don't get me started on GRADES... In my opinion they usually teach the kids exactly how to pass exams. and no more.


There are so many things wrong with your post, I don't know where to begin. You do not grasp the complexity of the issues in education. Your statement on "GRADES" is baseless and completely misguided. While I cannot promise that ALL teachers care about their students ALL the time, I can never defend someone who claims that teachers only care about making money--that statement alone is wrong on so many levels!!
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#1464958 - 06/29/10 10:34 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: AZNpiano]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10405
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Sort of like the doctor only cares about making money, the engineer only cares about making money, the .....

As though the human ego can be reduced to that. No one cares about the quality of their work, or about how others perceive it (and us)?
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1464974 - 06/29/10 10:55 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: AZNpiano]
Arghhh Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 1165
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
the reality is the teachers are there for one reason, to make money, they fulfill tasks designed by the superior. They lose the ability to care about each child's education and focus more on the children getting good grades. And don't get me started on GRADES... In my opinion they usually teach the kids exactly how to pass exams. and no more.


There are so many things wrong with your post, I don't know where to begin. You do not grasp the complexity of the issues in education. Your statement on "GRADES" is baseless and completely misguided. While I cannot promise that ALL teachers care about their students ALL the time, I can never defend someone who claims that teachers only care about making money--that statement alone is wrong on so many levels!!


AZN, I'm not saying what you said is wrong, but I believe hippymusicman was talking about the teachers he has encountered in the school system he is teaching in now. And that may be different from what you have experienced. He even said that the teachers here didn't seem to fit that bill.

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#1464979 - 06/29/10 11:00 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Piano*Dad]
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
i found your post interesting.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#1465254 - 06/29/10 08:04 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Ben Crosland]
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: Ben Crosland
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman

Step 1 - Put down the instrument.



This is the bit that really cracks me up - you post this in a teacher's forum?? I can only begin to imagine how many music teachers would read that and think "yeah, right - be nice if they'd actually picked up their instrument once in a while!" grin


It's a twisted situation I know! but the question teachers should ask themselves is "why .. do the students not WANT to pick up the instrument?" Has it become a chore?

The idea for me is .. introduce it as FUN.. then show the student THE VALUE OF LEARNING AN INSTRUMENT.. Then you wont need to tell them to pick up the instrument. They'll just grab it. well my students seem to anyway.
_________________________
... such a vital organ

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#1465275 - 06/29/10 08:24 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
No one has mentioned the elephant in this particular room: a bit hard to put down a piano!!!
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1465384 - 06/29/10 11:41 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Elissa Milne]
Little_Blue_Engine Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 1234
Loc: Ohio, US
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
No one has mentioned the elephant in this particular room: a bit hard to put down a piano!!!
Piece of cake compared to picking it up...
_________________________
I'll figure it out eventually.
Until then you may want to keep a safe distance.


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#1465417 - 06/30/10 12:35 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Little_Blue_Engine]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: Little_Blue_Engine
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
No one has mentioned the elephant in this particular room: a bit hard to put down a piano!!!
Piece of cake compared to picking it up...
HAHAHA!!!!!
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1465425 - 06/30/10 01:04 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Little_Blue_Engine]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Little_Blue_Engine
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
No one has mentioned the elephant in this particular room: a bit hard to put down a piano!!!
Piece of cake compared to picking it up...
In fact! Putting it down is an eccentric muscle contraction - they handle far heavier loads.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1465497 - 06/30/10 06:11 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Ejay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/24/09
Posts: 216
Loc: U.K.
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
introduce it as FUN..



Wow!!!
They are right ... you really are a genius after all !!!!
grin
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#1465505 - 06/30/10 06:47 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Ejay]
Ben Crosland Offline
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Registered: 03/11/10
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Loc: Worcester, UK
Originally Posted By: Ejay
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
introduce it as FUN..



Wow!!!
They are right ... you really are a genius after all !!!!
grin


I know! If only someone had suggested this to me in capital letters 23 years ago, it might have saved my poor students from all that torture I forced them to endure! Maybe more people would be labelling me a genius by now!!11!
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#1465716 - 06/30/10 01:27 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Ben Crosland]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Yeh, learning is fun! Thanks for passing that little nugget on.
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#1465767 - 06/30/10 02:47 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Ben Crosland]
wavelength Offline
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Posts: 340
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What you have described sounds more like "reasonable fluency" than "genius".

To those not accustomed to being around competent musicians, that kind of fluency seems like magic, and they'll use words like "genius". I know it seemed like magic to me once.

Fluent emotional expression through music is wonderful! And I have to agree that this aspect of music is under-nurtured in schools.

I don't mean to be discouraging, but from this and your other posts I have the feeling that you don't realize how good the really good musicians actually are. I'm not talking about the Mozarts and the Coltranes, but more like the run-of-the-mill working jazz musician in New York City. It's great that you can pick up a new instrument and find joy in it - that's my hobby too. But don't compare your abilities to the people who have been working on it for a couple years; measure them by the standards of the professionals in New York City, and you will be elevated.

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#1466071 - 06/30/10 11:56 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: wavelength]
hippymusicman Offline
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Registered: 09/10/09
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Originally Posted By: wavelength
To those not accustomed to being around competent musicians, that kind of fluency seems like magic, and they'll use words like "genius". I know it seemed like magic to me once.

I don't mean to be discouraging, but from this and your other posts I have the feeling that you don't realize how good the really good musicians actually are. I'm not talking about the Mozarts and the Coltranes, but more like the run-of-the-mill working jazz musician in New York City. It's great that you can pick up a new instrument and find joy in it - that's my hobby too. But don't compare your abilities to the people who have been working on it for a couple years; measure them by the standards of the professionals in New York City, and you will be elevated.


Thanks for you post. I agree wholeheartedly!
And I am not easily discouraged, but thanks for your concern.

It's not that I don't understand there are people out there who are (as you said) "better" than me...

I just find the use of terms like "better musician" "great musician" "genius musician" are all terms we use to satisfy ourselves. If you believe you are "better" than someone else at music then that can satisfy something.. but that satisfaction is usually very shallow. I find that this kind of satisfaction gets further away as you get closer. I believe everyone is on a never ending quest to satisfy themselves.

I don't like to have a rating system. Because a rating system holds no purpose. In my mind, nobody is better than anybody. Everybody is as they are.

By the same token, I don't strive to be "better" or "great" I just love what I'm doing and that causes me to get "better" (whatever that means) .
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#1466094 - 07/01/10 12:57 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
eweiss Offline
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HM ... the more you write, the more I like you!
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#1466098 - 07/01/10 01:08 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: eweiss]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
hippymusicman, this whole thread is dedicated to you explaining what makes you a better musician than other people!!! Unless I'm horribly mistaken your opening thread sought to explain what it is about you that makes other people call you a genius, and you were seeking to elucidate others as to how they also could attain the label of 'genius'. Am I horribly mistaken?!
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#1466106 - 07/01/10 01:31 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: eweiss]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: eweiss
HM ... the more you write, the more I like you!
Don't mistake ego incontinence for genius - you've done it before.
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#1466131 - 07/01/10 02:47 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: keyboardklutz]
Candywoman Offline
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I think it is more important to know how to lose your inhibitions at the piano, at least the ones that impact performance negatively. I'm exploring this concept by performing for different people.

I also wonder, should I perform TO my audience or should I get wrapped up in my inner world and make them do the work of appreciating that?

One of my problems when performing is I'll think, "Gee, I really got that note perfectly" and then right after that my mind will go blank.

To the OP, what about music that isn't all that emotional by nature, for instance a Bach Sinfonia?

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#1466135 - 07/01/10 02:52 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Candywoman]
AZNpiano Offline
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Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Candywoman
what about music that isn't all that emotional by nature, for instance a Bach Sinfonia?


???? Bach Sinfonia, not emotional ????

But I must admit, there are quite a few clunkers in that set.
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#1466149 - 07/01/10 03:30 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: AZNpiano]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Yeah, I must say, I find Bach Sinfonias to be the essence of emotion..... Hmmmm......

Further, please keep some of your inhibitions intact - clothes on, blaspheming to a minimum, that kind of thing.
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#1467422 - 07/03/10 05:36 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Elissa Milne]
hippymusicman Offline
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Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
hippymusicman, this whole thread is dedicated to you explaining what makes you a better musician than other people!!! Unless I'm horribly mistaken your opening thread sought to explain what it is about you that makes other people call you a genius, and you were seeking to elucidate others as to how they also could attain the label of 'genius'. Am I horribly mistaken?!


I want people to attempt to attain the label 'genius' so they can understand that the word really means nothing, labels mean nothing, ranking systems mean nothing. There is no need for any use of the phrases 'better' 'musical genius' 'great musicians' besides trying to fulfill something inside of you.

Labels do not fill the inner holes..
they fill the external holes for a moment, in the same way buying a new car fills external holes. The next week, the feeling is gone and suddenly your mind is on the next thing..
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#1467423 - 07/03/10 05:43 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Candywoman]
hippymusicman Offline
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Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: Candywoman
I think it is more important to know how to lose your inhibitions at the piano, at least the ones that impact performance negatively. I'm exploring this concept by performing for different people.

I also wonder, should I perform TO my audience or should I get wrapped up in my inner world and make them do the work of appreciating that?

One of my problems when performing is I'll think, "Gee, I really got that note perfectly" and then right after that my mind will go blank.

To the OP, what about music that isn't all that emotional by nature, for instance a Bach Sinfonia?


When I read this, my brain yelled in excitement. "YEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!"

GET WRAPPED UP IN YOUR PERFORMANCE!!! They enjoyment people get is from witnessing somebody expressing in the most pure and REAL way possible!

I think the ability to really get wrapped up in your playing.. is what so many people strive to copy.
LOSE YOURSELF IN THE MUSIC PLEEEEASE! GO BLANK!

When I see people doing this, I get the same feeling as watching a baby giggle or cry. REAL, BEAUTIFUL, EMOTION.

It's fantastic. I'm excited just thinking about you performing!
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#1467430 - 07/03/10 06:06 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: keyboardklutz]
hippymusicman Offline
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Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: eweiss
HM ... the more you write, the more I like you!
Don't mistake ego incontinence for genius - you've done it before.


I believe the reason some people believe how I act is 'full of ego' is because something that I've said clashes with their beliefs, and their own ego wishes to 'prove wrong' my belief because it feels threatened. I assure you I do not feel different above or below anybody. I understand I have beliefs, you have beliefs. There is no 'right'.

The fact that you think I have an ego, suggests that you think I am acting 'above' you. Which suggests you are ranking my beliefs on a big value scale. My beliefs aren't above you or below you at all. Because my beliefs have nothing to do with you. They are just my belief. However, I believe the thing ranking me above or below you is your threatened ego.

But none the less, I don't mind if someone wants to think that about me, I just don't believe it to be true.
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#1467438 - 07/03/10 06:29 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
hippymusicman, this whole thread is dedicated to you explaining what makes you a better musician than other people!!! Unless I'm horribly mistaken your opening thread sought to explain what it is about you that makes other people call you a genius, and you were seeking to elucidate others as to how they also could attain the label of 'genius'. Am I horribly mistaken?!


I want people to attempt to attain the label 'genius' so they can understand that the word really means nothing, labels mean nothing, ranking systems mean nothing. There is no need for any use of the phrases 'better' 'musical genius' 'great musicians' besides trying to fulfill something inside of you.

Labels do not fill the inner holes..
they fill the external holes for a moment, in the same way buying a new car fills external holes. The next week, the feeling is gone and suddenly your mind is on the next thing..
Mmm, that's a big ask. Do you genuinely request that 'people attempt to attain the label 'genius' so they can understand that the word really means nothing'??? There really are easier ways for people to come by this knowledge, and I suspect that exhorting the readers of *this* forum to attempt to become musical geniuses for the purpose of revealing to themselves the futility of the label is a wildly misguided effort: not many people here think too much of such labels IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! Teachers see students with crazy-inflated ideas of their genius year-in, year-out! Or more accurately, teachers see parents with crazy-inflated ideas of their children's genius year-in, year-out!!!

Teachers are already over the idea of genius well and truly and put no faith in such labels. As you will have already noted, many people in this forum and in the Pianist's Corner forum made mention of the fact that someone calling you a genius says more about their ignorance than about your expertise.

This [Piano Teachers Forum] is a demographic who don't need saving from this linguistic misconception.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
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#1467454 - 07/03/10 07:14 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: eweiss
HM ... the more you write, the more I like you!
Don't mistake ego incontinence for genius - you've done it before.


I believe the reason some people believe how I act is 'full of ego' is because something that I've said clashes with their beliefs, and their own ego wishes to 'prove wrong' my belief because it feels threatened. I assure you I do not feel different above or below anybody. I understand I have beliefs, you have beliefs. There is no 'right'.

The fact that you think I have an ego, suggests that you think I am acting 'above' you. Which suggests you are ranking my beliefs on a big value scale. My beliefs aren't above you or below you at all. Because my beliefs have nothing to do with you. They are just my belief. However, I believe the thing ranking me above or below you is your threatened ego.

But none the less, I don't mind if someone wants to think that about me, I just don't believe it to be true.
hippymusicman, I entirely agree that your post is not about 'ego', but from my 42-year-old perspective I think your post is a lot about being 22 [Gen Y, whatever]!!! It's also a little bit to do with not having a wide-enough view of what it means when people tell you that you are a genius - they are trying to pay you a big compliment! They are not trying to say you should join MENSA, they simply want to let you know they are totally impressed with what you can do. It's not something to have an existential crisis about.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1467530 - 07/03/10 11:20 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Elissa Milne]
hippymusicman Offline
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Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
hippymusicman, I entirely agree that your post is not about 'ego', but from my 42-year-old perspective I think your post is a lot about being 22 [Gen Y, whatever]!!! It's also a little bit to do with not having a wide-enough view of what it means when people tell you that you are a genius - they are trying to pay you a big compliment! They are not trying to say you should join MENSA, they simply want to let you know they are totally impressed with what you can do. It's not something to have an existential crisis about.


I don't mean to come across as someone who is trying to 'save' you. But I do wish to share my beliefs because most responses to my beliefs helps to change or solidify them.

Your responses in particular I have found to be very stimulating.

I believe the ego is speaking when there is any intent to separate one being from another. This is not an attack, but I believe your post did this. It is not an existential crisis. It happens all the time with just about everyone.

I believe the reason your ego spoke is because our beliefs clash.. The interesting thing is watching the ego tactics on how it will try to dismiss the opposing belief. It doesn't want to even accept the possibility that my belief may be agreeable and because of that we have lost normal discussion on it. Your post was not in the mood to discuss. It was stamping your belief with back up from your ego. In this case the ego's tactic was 'age'.

What if I now told you right now that I was lying about my age and I was actually 60.. Or what if I never told you my age in the first place... would we be discussing it properly then? my point is age shouldn't change anything. It's an instinctive ego defense tactic. Once again, this happens all the time with just about everyone.

If there's no more separation, then we can continue to discuss my proposed idea and learn something from it. Even if the thing we learn is that my idea is absolute rubbish. The only way to learn that is to discuss it, not stamp it out.

I do understand that when someone says I'm a genius they are trying to pay me a big compliment, which is an attempt to make me feel good. This compliment does not make me feel any better than I already feel. Because A) I feel fine.. B) I consider the label meaningless and would simply ask for a definition.. and C) The reason they are giving a compliment is to be 'nice'. It is external and in a sense 'shallow'.

Imagine telling a blind person they look beautiful. The response might be "what makes a person say such things?" That is how I feel when someone calls me names like 'genius'.. Or 'attractive' for that matter. "that's not needed here because I don't feel down about it in the first place... but I'm curious as to why you want to say it"
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#1467534 - 07/03/10 11:28 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
hippy, forget all this ego talk. What do you want to do musically? Ask yourself that, find musicians who you want to emulate and learn from, and start practicing.

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#1467536 - 07/03/10 11:33 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Elissa Milne]
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
Teachers are already over the idea of genius well and truly and put no faith in such labels. As you will have already noted, many people in this forum and in the Pianist's Corner forum made mention of the fact that someone calling you a genius says more about their ignorance than about your expertise.

This [Piano Teachers Forum] is a demographic who don't need saving from this linguistic misconception.


Sorry that was so long, but here's one more topic I think you can help me with.

Most people on piano world, I've noticed have many labels in their 'signature'. Songs they can play job title etc.

I'd like to understand more clearly why people feel the need to use these labels, while steering clear of other labels like 'genius'.
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#1467537 - 07/03/10 11:36 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Wizard of Oz]
hippymusicman Offline
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Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
hippy, forget all this ego talk. What do you want to do musically? Ask yourself that, find musicians who you want to emulate and learn from, and start practicing.


I don't want anything more than what I have.
I'm done!
The need to get things from music has vanished.
I now want to give things to music.
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#1467538 - 07/03/10 11:43 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
hippy, to call yourself a genius in music or anything would show just how egotistical you are.

Keith Jarrett, who is one I would actually put the label "genius" or "master" is a pompous, arrogant self-deluded person. Witness this, his insults to his own paying audience:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB9mMABRM0c&translated=1

Chick Corea or Herbie Hancock, 2 other true "geniuses" show no such attitude. They are much more humble.

Shows that being a "genius" isn't the only thing that matters.


Why are you so concerned about "ego" and such. Just play the music.

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#1467542 - 07/03/10 11:47 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
hippy...aka the "musical genius"...you are hilarious!! you're a pretty funny kid, given me lots of laughs. I don't think I've learned a shred of musical knowledge from your posts, but keep it up man.

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#1467553 - 07/03/10 12:02 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Wizard of Oz]
hippymusicman Offline
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Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
hippy...aka the "musical genius"...you are hilarious!! you're a pretty funny kid, given me lots of laughs. I don't think I've learned a shred of musical knowledge from your posts, but keep it up man.


Thanks! So long as there's laughter, I'll be smiling. grin

I'm sorry you haven't learned anything from my posts.

I can share my beliefs on your situation if you want to tell me your situation. That doesn't guarantee any learning, but since you seem keen to learn, I will try for you.
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#1467555 - 07/03/10 12:07 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Wizard of Oz]
hippymusicman Offline
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Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
hippy, to call yourself a genius in music or anything would show just how egotistical you are.


I 'll explain again. "Musical genius" is a label that means nothing. e.g. A baby can call me a musical genius. It therefor has no merit. Musical genius = not important/nothing.
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#1467559 - 07/03/10 12:16 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
If it's not important then why did you put that label on your signature. Kind of contradicts what you are talking about. Unless of course you want people to perceive you as a "musical genius".

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#1467560 - 07/03/10 12:17 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman


I can share my beliefs on your situation if you want to tell me your situation. That doesn't guarantee any learning, but since you seem keen to learn, I will try for you.


Share your beliefs on my situation? What in God's name are you talking about? Man, you are a weird one.

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#1467569 - 07/03/10 12:24 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
rocket88 Offline
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Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3171
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman

I 'll explain again. "Musical genius" is a label that means nothing.


Thanks for this info...Silly me, I always thought that words actually do describe and indicate things.
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#1467590 - 07/03/10 01:05 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
keystring Online   content
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There is so much here. Going from one thing to the next:

Quote:
I want people to attempt to attain the label 'genius' so they can understand that the word really means nothing, labels mean nothing, ranking systems mean nothing.


Food for thought:
In a forum (PW) where people gather because they are serious about music, it is likely that some of those people have a calling to music and also a certain natural talent. In the teacher forum, certainly there will be people calling themselves teachers who maybe should wait to be doing so or ought to pursue something else. But there will definitely be people who had a great deal of natural talent and that this calling brought them to where they are today. What I am saying is that at least some of those here have at one time or another been called geniuses or similar, and the average person has been in awe of them. That is the (*mixed*) audience that you are addressing.

You have encountered a certain world in the high school where you are teaching. There are sad attitudes that kill music. They actually cut students off from music; they create a disconnection and barrier. The kids are taught stiff things. They are also induced to study through prizes (grades) and competition with one another - all of which rightly appalls you - and that again shuts them off. If you are studying for grades you are no longer interested in the subject. You, having a natural connection to music, can see that there is more and want to change things. That would explain what you have posted, in part.

This world that you have encountered is not the whole world. Not everyone thinks that way. Those who are teachers here probably have a wider vision - You must make room in your mind that there are a great many ways that people relate to music and think about music. Some of the men and women in this forum have spent 30 or 40 years pursuing it, and we also don't know what those who teach are doing with their students. At least some of those people may have been where you are now, and gone further. Others may be merely mechanics who memorized some physical principles and intellectual facts that will produce some kind of results.

For the kids in high school that you are teaching, it is good that they are being brought past that bland non-vision one sees. If they can form that connection to music and what is in them, at least some of them will go on to learn who knows what, who knows where - at least there has been a start. The worst thing that I saw were some neighbourhood kids, age 7, from the school's "music" program, playing a memorized sequence of finger numbers or recorder so that their parents could recognize a "song" --- if that music-killer can be avoided, all the better!

Do not stop your own growth and your own seeking. You are only at the beginning. You have already seen the edge of something else: people who hear the music they read (or write) with written notation. Keep your eye & ear open for people with knowledge & experience who also seem musically connected, from whom you can learn things, and be open minded toward what they might reveal, and how they reveal them. It can be from angles you do not expect.

I am an adult student. I've experienced things similar to that label, and like you, music, different instruments, etc. come easily to me. I wasted decades doing only what I could find and do myself. Life happens, and sometimes you don't know there is a road in order to embark on it. What is out there, and what some people know and are connected to, is humbling. That is why you don't see the strong musicians brag much; they have seen just how big it is, and how little they know, even though what they know is incredibly much.

As you learn more from here and there, you will probably find that formal things you learn are connected to what you already have inside you as an instinctive knowledge. It fleshes it out, adds to it - gives 'aha's'. You will probably also find that dry meaningless things in "theory" actually refer to something richer that you can dig out. That knowledge is not only in classical music; by ear players also have a ton of theory behind what they do.

What I have found in my own journey of these few years is that there are sides to music I had not been aware of. You are deaf until you become aware of a thing and start listening for it, and then you hear it everywhere! The trouble is that there are also 'experts' using big words --- they do know a lot (of facts) --- who just offer empty or confusing things. But there is a lot to discover, and everything you discover will go back to what you can put into your playing and your composing, and what you teach.

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#1467599 - 07/03/10 01:17 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: keystring]
Ejay Offline
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Registered: 03/24/09
Posts: 216
Loc: U.K.
Ruben your posts get more and more entertaining.
Are you studying psychology ?

The label thing in my signature.
Well in some ways it can be embarrassing. While completing Alfred's Adult book 1 is an achievement for me, it must seem rather silly to the pianists and teachers here, but it is a marker for me.
The same with the pieces I am working on; they are there to mark where I am, and an incentive to keep practising or people will notice if the signature never changes.

So it is making me accountable for my practice.
_________________________
Music was my refuge. I could crawl into the space between the notes and curl my back to loneliness.
Maya Angelou


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#1467617 - 07/03/10 01:42 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Wizard of Oz]
danshure Offline
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Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 347
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
hippy, to call yourself a genius in music or anything would show just how egotistical you are.

Keith Jarrett, who is one I would actually put the label "genius" or "master" is a pompous, arrogant self-deluded person.

Chick Corea or Herbie Hancock, 2 other true "geniuses" show no such attitude. They are much more humble.

Keith Jarrett is not egotistical, he is misunderstood and taken out of context.

Chick and Herbie are great but not anywhere near the level of Keith.


Edited by danshure (07/03/10 01:43 PM)
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#1467634 - 07/03/10 02:27 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: danshure]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: danshure

Keith Jarrett is not egotistical, he is misunderstood and taken out of context.

Chick and Herbie are great but not anywhere near the level of Keith.



Jarrett is an egomaniac of the highest sort. Have you ever been to his concert where he admonishes the audience for coughing, or stops playing mid-song to wait for people to be quiet.

Chick and Herbie are both as good as Keith, yet their styles are totally different from his.

Perhaps it's your preference to a certain jazz that leans your bias towards KJ.

Jarrett is the master of ballads and solo improv ala Koln. But try getting him to play Herbie's Maiden Voyage or Dolphin Dance, or Chick's Spain.

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#1467672 - 07/03/10 03:40 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: keystring]
Ben Crosland Offline
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Registered: 03/11/10
Posts: 421
Loc: Worcester, UK
Originally Posted By: keystring
They are also induced to study through prizes (grades) and competition with one another - all of which rightly appalls you - and that again shuts them off. If you are studying for grades you are no longer interested in the subject. You, having a natural connection to music, can see that there is more and want to change things.


The thing is, as anyone who has taught more than a handful of students will know, this kind of statement should really come with a "for some of the people" disclaimer. Some students thrive outside of the grading system, whereas others are really motivated by it. All students are individuals, and one of the most important skills a teacher can learn is how to develop the necessary flexibility to be able to inspire as wide a range of personalities and abilities as possible.
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#1467731 - 07/03/10 06:36 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Ben Crosland]
keystring Online   content
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Quote:

The thing is, as anyone who has taught more than a handful of students will know, this kind of statement should really come with a "for some of the people" disclaimer.


My post is full of the word 'some', Ben. I was addressing a young man who is in the school system as a teacher for the first time, trying to get a handle on what he is seeing. The school system, rather than private lessons, were being addressed in this instant.

Btw, I have taught more than a handful of students. wink


Edited by keystring (07/03/10 06:37 PM)

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#1467737 - 07/03/10 06:49 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: keystring]
Ben Crosland Offline
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Registered: 03/11/10
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Loc: Worcester, UK
Originally Posted By: keystring
[quote]


Btw, I have taught more than a handful of students. wink


Yeah, sorry - I wasn't really aiming that at you wink
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#1467772 - 07/03/10 08:48 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
hippymusicman, I entirely agree that your post is not about 'ego', but from my 42-year-old perspective I think your post is a lot about being 22 [Gen Y, whatever]!!! It's also a little bit to do with not having a wide-enough view of what it means when people tell you that you are a genius - they are trying to pay you a big compliment! They are not trying to say you should join MENSA, they simply want to let you know they are totally impressed with what you can do. It's not something to have an existential crisis about.


I don't mean to come across as someone who is trying to 'save' you. But I do wish to share my beliefs because most responses to my beliefs helps to change or solidify them.

Your responses in particular I have found to be very stimulating.

I believe the ego is speaking when there is any intent to separate one being from another. This is not an attack, but I believe your post did this. It is not an existential crisis. It happens all the time with just about everyone.

I believe the reason your ego spoke is because our beliefs clash.. The interesting thing is watching the ego tactics on how it will try to dismiss the opposing belief. It doesn't want to even accept the possibility that my belief may be agreeable and because of that we have lost normal discussion on it. Your post was not in the mood to discuss. It was stamping your belief with back up from your ego. In this case the ego's tactic was 'age'.

What if I now told you right now that I was lying about my age and I was actually 60.. Or what if I never told you my age in the first place... would we be discussing it properly then? my point is age shouldn't change anything. It's an instinctive ego defense tactic. Once again, this happens all the time with just about everyone.

If there's no more separation, then we can continue to discuss my proposed idea and learn something from it. Even if the thing we learn is that my idea is absolute rubbish. The only way to learn that is to discuss it, not stamp it out.

I do understand that when someone says I'm a genius they are trying to pay me a big compliment, which is an attempt to make me feel good. This compliment does not make me feel any better than I already feel. Because A) I feel fine.. B) I consider the label meaningless and would simply ask for a definition.. and C) The reason they are giving a compliment is to be 'nice'. It is external and in a sense 'shallow'.

Imagine telling a blind person they look beautiful. The response might be "what makes a person say such things?" That is how I feel when someone calls me names like 'genius'.. Or 'attractive' for that matter. "that's not needed here because I don't feel down about it in the first place... but I'm curious as to why you want to say it"

hippymusicman, I raise the issue of age because it actually does make a difference to the way one approaches a topic. If you were 60 and writing this I would not bother to discuss the topic with you at all!! I would think "how funny that this man has lived so very long and still bothers to engage with the flattering things people say".

I appreciate the frustration of hearing someone say "I'm older than you and that makes my perspective different", but it seems to me from your response that what you heard was not what I said. What I said was that from my perspective (which includes as a matter of fact 42 years of life experience besides everything else that does in fact distinguish my experience from yours and make my perspective a little different - but equally human - to anyone else's) you were not speaking out of ego.

Now, if you wish to disagree with me and say that I was wrong to reach the conclusion I did (that you were not speaking out of ego) that is entirely your prerogative.

But I am who I am, with an age, a set of experiences, a set of insights and disappointments, places visited, persons met, that make me a different speaker to you, and me speaking from my own embodied experience does not equate to me speaking from ego. I understood from your previous posts that you were interested in what makes different humans behave in different ways. Discounting my contribution because I have felt it pertinent to mention your age and my age will not lead you to learning from my contribution. But it's of no consequence to me either way; for the meantime, I choose to engage in this conversation with you.

Back to the issue of the compliment: it's not about you!! I don't think you appreciate that it is absolutely nothing to do with you!! It's about the person trying to communicate their feelings when they hear you play. It's about them!!! It reflects their feelings, their past experience, their beliefs about the world. Your actions have sparked these feelings, but you are not responsible for them. And your ego should not be bothered by these comments one way or the other - they mean nothing to you in your quest.
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#1467774 - 07/03/10 08:53 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
Teachers are already over the idea of genius well and truly and put no faith in such labels. As you will have already noted, many people in this forum and in the Pianist's Corner forum made mention of the fact that someone calling you a genius says more about their ignorance than about your expertise.

This [Piano Teachers Forum] is a demographic who don't need saving from this linguistic misconception.


Sorry that was so long, but here's one more topic I think you can help me with.

Most people on piano world, I've noticed have many labels in their 'signature'. Songs they can play job title etc.

I'd like to understand more clearly why people feel the need to use these labels, while steering clear of other labels like 'genius'.
I added a signature to my posts about a week after I first began participating in this forum, on the suggestion of someone else in the forum. It was a good idea.

The reason people steer clear of the label genius, and others like it, is that such labels do not convey information, they are a judgment. And like many judgments, not everyone will agree. No one can disagree with the contents of my signature - these are simply facts. Why would anyone want to call themselves a genius????? It might be a 90s style postmodern irony, I suppose....
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#1467850 - 07/03/10 11:46 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
stores Offline
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Originally Posted By: hippymusicman


Most people on piano world, I've noticed have many labels in their 'signature'. Songs they can play job title etc.

I'd like to understand more clearly why people feel the need to use these labels, while steering clear of other labels like 'genius'.


Why don't many use labels like genius as you do? Because most people don't want to appear to be an idiot.
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#1467867 - 07/04/10 12:16 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
LimeFriday Offline
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Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 303
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman


What if I now told you right now that I was lying about my age and I was actually 60..


If you said that right now - I would be thinking "Wow... this 60 year old guy sounds like he's straight out of school encountering the world for the first time"

I love your enthusiasm... I love that you are excited by your ideas - that you want to share your perspective in the hope that it will inspire the same enthusiasm you feel right now.

I remember feeling like that - I remember being exposed to ideas and perspectives that I'd never encountered before... and being simultaneously inspired and appalled by those ideas and perspectives. I remember having the desire to change the world.

What I didn't realise then and I do know now - is that most of the ideas and perspectives came people who'd lived and worked for many years - and whose ideas had been shaped and changed by experience and their own mistakes.

It's great to share your ideas - but at the same time - it's not great to believe that your ideas are the only 'way'... or that your ideas are what other should strive to achieve or understand. Most of those people you are trying to convince have been there before you.

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#1467915 - 07/04/10 03:01 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: keystring]
AJF Offline
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Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1651
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: keystring
There is so much here. Going from one thing to the next:

Quote:
I want people to attempt to attain the label 'genius' so they can understand that the word really means nothing, labels mean nothing, ranking systems mean nothing.


Food for thought:
In a forum (PW) where people gather because they are serious about music, it is likely that some of those people have a calling to music and also a certain natural talent. In the teacher forum, certainly there will be people calling themselves teachers who maybe should wait to be doing so or ought to pursue something else. But there will definitely be people who had a great deal of natural talent and that this calling brought them to where they are today. What I am saying is that at least some of those here have at one time or another been called geniuses or similar, and the average person has been in awe of them. That is the (*mixed*) audience that you are addressing.

You have encountered a certain world in the high school where you are teaching. There are sad attitudes that kill music. They actually cut students off from music; they create a disconnection and barrier. The kids are taught stiff things. They are also induced to study through prizes (grades) and competition with one another - all of which rightly appalls you - and that again shuts them off. If you are studying for grades you are no longer interested in the subject. You, having a natural connection to music, can see that there is more and want to change things. That would explain what you have posted, in part.

This world that you have encountered is not the whole world. Not everyone thinks that way. Those who are teachers here probably have a wider vision - You must make room in your mind that there are a great many ways that people relate to music and think about music. Some of the men and women in this forum have spent 30 or 40 years pursuing it, and we also don't know what those who teach are doing with their students. At least some of those people may have been where you are now, and gone further. Others may be merely mechanics who memorized some physical principles and intellectual facts that will produce some kind of results.

For the kids in high school that you are teaching, it is good that they are being brought past that bland non-vision one sees. If they can form that connection to music and what is in them, at least some of them will go on to learn who knows what, who knows where - at least there has been a start. The worst thing that I saw were some neighbourhood kids, age 7, from the school's "music" program, playing a memorized sequence of finger numbers or recorder so that their parents could recognize a "song" --- if that music-killer can be avoided, all the better!

Do not stop your own growth and your own seeking. You are only at the beginning. You have already seen the edge of something else: people who hear the music they read (or write) with written notation. Keep your eye & ear open for people with knowledge & experience who also seem musically connected, from whom you can learn things, and be open minded toward what they might reveal, and how they reveal them. It can be from angles you do not expect.

I am an adult student. I've experienced things similar to that label, and like you, music, different instruments, etc. come easily to me. I wasted decades doing only what I could find and do myself. Life happens, and sometimes you don't know there is a road in order to embark on it. What is out there, and what some people know and are connected to, is humbling. That is why you don't see the strong musicians brag much; they have seen just how big it is, and how little they know, even though what they know is incredibly much.

As you learn more from here and there, you will probably find that formal things you learn are connected to what you already have inside you as an instinctive knowledge. It fleshes it out, adds to it - gives 'aha's'. You will probably also find that dry meaningless things in "theory" actually refer to something richer that you can dig out. That knowledge is not only in classical music; by ear players also have a ton of theory behind what they do.

What I have found in my own journey of these few years is that there are sides to music I had not been aware of. You are deaf until you become aware of a thing and start listening for it, and then you hear it everywhere! The trouble is that there are also 'experts' using big words --- they do know a lot (of facts) --- who just offer empty or confusing things. But there is a lot to discover, and everything you discover will go back to what you can put into your playing and your composing, and what you teach.


This post, IMO, has more 'genius' and wisdom in it than any of the posts I've read from the OP. Whether or not the OP feels that what he has discovered is some sort of 'truth' about things, all I am perceiving is smug self satisfaction which to me is indicative of an inexperienced and yes, ego driven mind.
You want proof? Look how many responses on this thread reek of ego. Ego's 'activate' other egos.
To me a true genius is someone who is FAR too concerned and occupied with the path they are on to stop and ask "Gee, am I a genius?"


Edited by AJF (07/04/10 03:58 AM)
Edit Reason: sp
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#1467921 - 07/04/10 03:27 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Wizard of Oz]
AJF Offline
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Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1651
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
Originally Posted By: danshure

Keith Jarrett is not egotistical, he is misunderstood and taken out of context.

Chick and Herbie are great but not anywhere near the level of Keith.



Jarrett is an egomaniac of the highest sort. Have you ever been to his concert where he admonishes the audience for coughing, or stops playing mid-song to wait for people to be quiet.

Chick and Herbie are both as good as Keith, yet their styles are totally different from his.

Perhaps it's your preference to a certain jazz that leans your bias towards KJ.

Jarrett is the master of ballads and solo improv ala Koln. But try getting him to play Herbie's Maiden Voyage or Dolphin Dance, or Chick's Spain.





I disagree with this post wholeheartedly.
I do not think Keith Jarrett is an egomaniac of the 'highest sort'.

Keith Jarrett, IMO, is someone who is so in touch with what is needed in order for the music to 'happen' that he is not willing to make sacrifices of any sort which may impede the musical process. It's not about him, it's about the music that he cherishes so much.
How could an egomaniac create music of such pure beauty and universality?
As a musician I think Keith Jarrett is about as ego-less as they come. He may very well be a complete and utter ego maniac off stage but who cares? Beethoven was apparently a huge asshole (pardon the vulgar language) but does that make his music any less wonderful?
When Keith sits down at the piano it is so about the MUSIC that it's as if he (the INDIVIDUAL) isn't even there. He believes so deeply in being able to capably channel the musical forces 'out there' to the listener that when something (like external noise or an out of tune piano) comes in the way of that process he won't stand for it. Not because of his own self importance but because he believes so deeply in what can happen for the listener when the music happens. To me that is quite selfless.
And the 'proof is in the pudding'. Why is Keith such a widely appreciated musician worldwide? Because he captures something when he plays that speaks to people on a very basic level. His playing doesn't SHOW the audience something, it GIVES the audience something.

I agree that Keith is no greater than Herbie or Chick (and many lesser known players for that matter, who haven't had the good fortune of such wide exposure but are equally great in their own right). Ranking artists of this caliber is pointless and ignorant IMO. They are all essentially doing the same thing, but 'funneling' it through a different set of life circumstances.

However, I think it is equally ignorant to think that Keith couldn't play the SH*T out of Maiden Voyage or Spain. Have you heard him playing with his Standards Trio? (Gary Peacock and Jack DeJohnette)His ability to play over changes and groove is second to none.


Edited by AJF (07/04/10 03:31 AM)
Edit Reason: grammar
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#1467926 - 07/04/10 03:46 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: stores]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman


Most people on piano world, I've noticed have many labels in their 'signature'. Songs they can play job title etc.

I'd like to understand more clearly why people feel the need to use these labels, while steering clear of other labels like 'genius'.


Why don't many use labels like genius as you do? Because most people don't want to appear to be an idiot.
well, that's a good reason too.... :-)
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#1467928 - 07/04/10 03:51 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: AJF]
Nikolas Online   content
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Registered: 11/26/07
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The age issue: If a 60 year old was lying on the internet mentioning he was 22, I would probably think he was after much younger girls! laugh Alternatively I wouldn't even attempt to ponder on his posts, it's just silly! If he was able to convince me of his reasonings, perhaps, but I seriously doubt that.

The signature/label issue: Some things can be considered facts. Elissa is a teacher, a composer and a writter (and a wonderful person, judging from her posts... :)). Other teachers also label what they do for a living. Others are very proud (and rightfully so), to finish Alfreds Book 1 so they put that on. Others are studying a Scriabin etude and want everyone to know.

For a short while I had in my signature my degrees. Then I thought that I'm appearing like a complete idiot, full of himself and took them down, leaving my website on. Kreisler helped with that idea. He said that if people want to know more, they can visit my website. And this is true.

Everything else: Communcation goes both ways. It's only what you say, but what you hear and understand as well! While obvious, it does seem that in the case of the 'genious' label and the whole idea of sharing HOW TO BE LABELED THAT seems things get a little more complicated.

At some point, Ruben, you will need to understand that it was extremely bold of you to make this topic in two forums (both reaching a high number of posts). Further everyone else should agree that Ruben is acting very mature in his postings and not flaming, swearing, complaining (a lot), etc, which really is making me enjoy these threads a tad more!
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#1467937 - 07/04/10 04:39 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: AJF]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: AJF







I disagree with this post wholeheartedly.
I do not think Keith Jarrett is an egomaniac of the 'highest sort'.



AJF, there is no disputing KJ's musical prowess. He is one of the finest pianists bar none. His devotion to the music is unquestioned.

But, like many prodigies perhaps he has not had to develop his social skills, as many people are willing to overlook his idiosyncrasies for his music. From what I have heard of his interviews and behaviour, he is highly arrogant and condescending.

Did you see the episode at the Umbria Jazz festival where he starts swearing at the audience to stop taking pictures and tells them it is "THEIR" privilege to listen to him. And that they won't play if it continues. These are the people who pay to make him rich.

The director of the festival banned him from ever playing there again. That says alot.

I've never seen this from Chick or Herbie. This isn't about ranking who's better, it's about showing respect.

You could say the same for his theatrics and grunting when he plays. Personally I don't mind them, but some people get highly annoyed. I don't see any other musician do it to the level that he does, so you can definitely control it. He just chooses not to.

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#1467952 - 07/04/10 05:28 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: AJF]
hippymusicman Offline
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Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: AJF
This post, IMO, has more 'genius' and wisdom in it than any of the posts I've read from the OP. Whether or not the OP feels that what he has discovered is some sort of 'truth' about things, all I am perceiving is smug self satisfaction which to me is indicative of an inexperienced and yes, ego driven mind.
You want proof? Look how many responses on this thread reek of ego. Ego's 'activate' other egos.
To me a true genius is someone who is FAR too concerned and occupied with the path they are on to stop and ask "Gee, am I a genius?"


I will repeat the 'genius' thing for those that missed it. Genius is a label that means nothing, it is not important. The reason I have 'Musical Genius' as my signature, is to make a statement and try to prove a point.. That point is: "All labels mean nothing but self satisfaction." And everybody is looking for satisfaction. So everybody puts labels on themselves.
Once again, "musical genius" means nothing. I do not have an inflated ego.

In this post, I state my beliefs about music and life. You can then state yours and we have the chance to learn together. If you feel there is an ego here, it is because your ego is threatened by somebody simply sharing their beliefs. Why not just share your beliefs?

E.g. If I said the sky is Red.. If you were comfortable with beliefs of the sky, you'd just explain that you believe it is blue, and tell me why, So I can learn.

This simple discussion is not happening because your ego thinks my ego is inflated and is therefor having an ego battle. But I'm not looking for an ego battle. I'm here to discuss beliefs about music, life, spirituality and whatever else. To learn.

Ego is separating yourself from somebody else, and that is not what I'm doing. I'm stating my beliefs with the understanding that we are all the same regardless of what we believe.

If our beliefs clash, please just say what you believe. If you again choose to have an ego battle, you will not get an egoistic response. Because I don't believe I am above or below you. We are equal. There is also no ego here, just me sharing my own beliefs and wanting discussion, which leads to learning.

My brain wants to thank everybody who is contributing to the discussion. "thank you for the stimulation"
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#1467955 - 07/04/10 05:40 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: stores]
hippymusicman Offline
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Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
I'd like to understand more clearly why people feel the need to use these labels, while steering clear of other labels like 'genius'.


Why don't many use labels like genius as you do? Because most people don't want to appear to be an idiot.


Idiot is just another label that I will need to ask for a definition.

If you mean to say I have a subnormal intelligence, that suggests you feel I am below you in some way. I don't believe anybody is above or below anybody. If you do, I'd like to hear what makes somebody above or below somebody else. Share your beliefs without negativity.
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#1467956 - 07/04/10 05:46 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
hippymusicman, why you choose to 'prove' the inanity of labels in this way is mysterious to me! I'm sure that many here will not see the label as inane, but rather inanely applied. Maybe what you mean to say is that through misapplication its usefulness is devalued?

Your OP took the view that there is an approach through which people also can have those around them label them as musical geniuses, and I think that the discussion of *this approach* is what you had really intended to be the meat of the thread, rather than this rather superficial issue of whether anyone in particular is or is not a genius.

Or am I way off track?
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#1467958 - 07/04/10 05:55 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: LimeFriday]
hippymusicman Offline
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Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: LimeFriday
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman


What if I now told you right now that I was lying about my age and I was actually 60..


If you said that right now - I would be thinking "Wow... this 60 year old guy sounds like he's straight out of school encountering the world for the first time"

I love your enthusiasm... I love that you are excited by your ideas - that you want to share your perspective in the hope that it will inspire the same enthusiasm you feel right now.

I remember feeling like that - I remember being exposed to ideas and perspectives that I'd never encountered before... and being simultaneously inspired and appalled by those ideas and perspectives. I remember having the desire to change the world.

What I didn't realise then and I do know now - is that most of the ideas and perspectives came people who'd lived and worked for many years - and whose ideas had been shaped and changed by experience and their own mistakes.

It's great to share your ideas - but at the same time - it's not great to believe that your ideas are the only 'way'... or that your ideas are what other should strive to achieve or understand. Most of those people you are trying to convince have been there before you.


Firstly, I never suggested my beliefs were the 'ONLY' way. I understand that beliefs are different.

I find it odd that there has been no mention of the belief that seems to be clashing with your belief..

Would you share which belief has clashed with yours and why? So that I can better understand and hopefully learn something!

The reason I said "what if I was actually 60" was to share my belief: age does not necessarily make anyone more or less knowledgeable. And using someones 'age' was simply a way to get off the topic because discussing the belief wasn't wanted.
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#1467963 - 07/04/10 06:53 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
stores Offline
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Originally Posted By: hippymusicman


I will repeat the 'genius' thing for those that missed it. Genius is a label that means nothing, it is not important. The reason I have 'Musical Genius' as my signature, is to make a statement and try to prove a point.. That point is: "All labels mean nothing but self satisfaction." And everybody is looking for satisfaction. So everybody puts labels on themselves.
Once again, "musical genius" means nothing. I do not have an inflated ego.




So, if the label means nothing then there's no need for it, yet the fact that it remains as your "signature" defies your claim of "I do not live through the ego.", which, of course, you do.
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#1467966 - 07/04/10 07:05 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Elissa Milne]
hippymusicman Offline
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Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
hippymusicman, why you choose to 'prove' the inanity of labels in this way is mysterious to me! I'm sure that many here will not see the label as inane, but rather inanely applied. Maybe what you mean to say is that through misapplication its usefulness is devalued?

Your OP took the view that there is an approach through which people also can have those around them label them as musical geniuses, and I think that the discussion of *this approach* is what you had really intended to be the meat of the thread, rather than this rather superficial issue of whether anyone in particular is or is not a genius.Or am I way off track?


I want to share my beliefs on labels because a lot of people judge others on their labels without considering what's beneath the label. A good example is the way women are judged on their appearance without people seeing what's beneath the appearance. I wholeheartedly believe such things are external, and irrelevant.

I believe people put up labels because they wish other people to value them more... like women apply make-up. The question is, why do you feel the need to appear more valuable? The only conclusion I have is: people have an underlying feeling of being invaluable.. I believe a lot of people have this.

Focusing on external, to me is just one big burden! If you stop focusing on externals: appearance, labels, clothes, cars, facebooks, websites, race, religion, beliefs etc etc.. then there is no more competing, no more pain, no more self consciousness .. no more racism. no more conflict between people.

I feel like this.. Please don't mistake this as egoistic. I do understand everybody is equal. I am not above or below you, we are all the same. No body is invaluable!! Nobody needs to increase their value to me.

All I want to do is share my beliefs.

If you ask me why... It's because I would like to be able to discuss theories, ideas, beliefs with people without it turning into a battle of who has the better belief or the most knowledge.

Thanks.
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#1467976 - 07/04/10 07:54 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Elissa Milne Offline
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But some beliefs are more sound than others - this can argued and accepted by using agreed upon criteria. For instance, is it useful to believe that bridges are best built with balloons? Well, not overly useful if you are actually building a bridge, and possibly dangerous to the community at large should you ever try to actually build one.

This forum is about how to teach the piano.

The notion of 'musical genius' is one that teachers do not apply to their students, and those people who do apply it to those they meet are not in the business of teaching people how to play the piano. So your beliefs about this particular label are shared by absolutely everyone in this forum - no one thinks it applies to you!! And no one here would claim it for themselves or apply it to their students. So this is not about anyone thinking they are better than anyone else in the slightest.

On the other hand, words do have meanings, and calling yourself an elephant to prove how silly calling things elephants really is simply won't change the fact that there are elephants, and when you really do meet one it's useful to know it's not a giraffe, zebra or stingray.
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#1467981 - 07/04/10 08:04 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Elissa Milne]
Elissa Milne Offline
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I should add, to make it explicit: someone saying "you're not a genius" is not a statement that necessarily emanates from *their* ego, particularly if they say it in response to your asking for a response.....

You saying that you are a genius emanates from something, and I suppose you could view a lot of these posts as reflecting people feeling that it is odd for you to make this claim.

You go on to say that labels are meaningless, but clearly this is not so - something truly meaningless would not get your attention... Labels are powerful, even when mistakenly applied. This is why there are racial vilification laws in many western democracies, why there are laws governing libel and slander, why unfair trading practice laws can prosecute businesses that choose to employ labels that mislead the public (even if this misleading was unintentional). Naming something is a powerful act - this is why in Aboriginal cultures it is not permitted to name a deceased person. There is much that is important in interpersonal communication that you are choosing to ignore in your line of reasoning.

I find this conversation interesting because it's all about finding ways to make sense of the world, and I like that this is what you are striving to do (as all of us, every day, find ourselves doing in the quest not only to lead good lives, but in order to teach well).
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#1467984 - 07/04/10 08:15 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Elissa Milne]
AZNpiano Offline
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Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
On the other hand, words do have meanings, and calling yourself an elephant to prove how silly calling things elephants really is simply won't change the fact that there are elephants, and when you really do meet one it's useful to know it's not a giraffe, zebra or stingray.

That's an awesome post!!
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#1467988 - 07/04/10 08:17 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: AJF]
danshure Offline
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Posts: 347
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Originally Posted By: AJF
everything AJF said

AJF

Thanks for saving me the time of a response and saying the above better than I could! NICELY put.

The only thing I'd like to add, Wizard of Oz, is that if you think that Keith is about playing ballads and Kolhn style solo piano you've severely missed the bulk of his material, which is not like that at all.

For solo piano try "Dark Intervals" or even his recent Carnegie Hall concert. Improvised counterpoint? Complex LH vamps while the right hand does whatever it wants? (and I'm not talking about the stuff on Kolhn... maybe like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPqK1JJOFxw

Keith is much more a pianist in the true sense than Chick or Herbie in terms of really knowing the instrument very deeply. He has a wider dynamic range for sure. How about this intro to All the things???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLCGWh-VZhI

or this? doesn't sound like a ballad to me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyR7zvxjDGo&feature=related

If you really want something different, try "Spirits".

And yes, I have been to several of his concerts, trio and solo. Did you know his solo piano concerts are performed acoustically (no amplification of the piano at all)? In venues the size of Carengie Hall, could you see how coughing or extraneous noise might affect things?

I was in Boston, in the closest seat to him from the entire audience, a few years ago for a trio concert. It had been clearly announced and signs posted all throughout Symphony Hall "No Photography". Yet what do a bunch of people start doing during bow? Take photos! Out of the 6-7 concerts I'd been to, this was the only one he said something to the audience, and I wonder why? I imagine anytime I'd performed in basically a dark room on stage. Something flashing in your eyes, unexpectedly, out of the darkness is not the most pleasant thing.

And here's what I mean by taken out of context. In Boston, Keith was polite about this a first. The first few bows people were taking photos and Keith Jack and Gary tried to inconspicuously ask these people to stop - something you could only see them doing from the front of the house. It was only after SEVERAL times of this Keith finally said something on the mic. Then, all you see on YouTube is Keith saying something to the audience, not everything leading up to it.
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#1468005 - 07/04/10 08:48 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Canonie Offline
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Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman

(...)
I believe people put up labels because they wish other people to value them more... like women apply make-up. The question is, why do you feel the need to appear more valuable? The only conclusion I have is: people have an underlying feeling of being invaluable.. I believe a lot of people have this.
(...)

You are right! I definitely have an underlying feeling of being invaluable.

_________________________________________________________________
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#1468220 - 07/04/10 03:30 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Ben Crosland]
findingnemo2010 Offline
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Posts: 1498
learning music is like learning another language, thats exactly what it is...thats been known..how long does it take people to read and write english, however long that takes, thats how long it takes to learn music and longer, longer i dont know why? unless u start young and keep at it, then your good
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#1468229 - 07/04/10 03:48 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: findingnemo2010]
al-mahed Offline
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hippymusicman
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LOL
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#1468347 - 07/04/10 09:41 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Canonie]
currawong Offline
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Originally Posted By: Canonie
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman

(...)The question is, why do you feel the need to appear more valuable? The only conclusion I have is: people have an underlying feeling of being invaluable.. (...)
You are right! I definitely have an underlying feeling of being invaluable.
And so you are! Welcome back, Canonie. grin
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#1468348 - 07/04/10 09:47 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
currawong Offline
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Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
That point is: "All labels mean nothing but self satisfaction."
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
over time, I've come to put these labels on musicians.EYE or EAR.

hmmm...
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#1468354 - 07/04/10 10:01 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: currawong]
Canonie Offline
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Loc: Australia
hehe
OT Hello Currawong and all you lovely teachers. Lovely to be back and hear all your words. I'm back to choosing repertoire again - seems to be when I gravitate to PW to procrastinate instead of learning many pages of notes - mentally draining. I've dropped in for a brief read occasionally but didn't post. Too addictive wink

And no, I didn't really change my sig line. Just pretending.
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Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
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#1468356 - 07/04/10 10:03 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: currawong]
al-mahed Offline
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Loc: Rio de Janeiro
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
That point is: "All labels mean nothing but self satisfaction."
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
over time, I've come to put these labels on musicians.EYE or EAR.

hmmm...



hippymusicman
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Posts: 90
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grin
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#1468410 - 07/05/10 12:09 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: al-mahed]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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Hippymusician, I dont mean to use the age label, but as a young person I do have to say you sound like a collegue of mine who is YOUNG and EXCITED about changing and making music education better. I have read through your posts and I'm going to be honest, although you make no claims of saying you are better, your post seems to be authoritative, and I personally find it ironic that you label it "Musical genius, how to be one" ... that sounds like you have the answers. Although you even say to excuse the title, the fact that you still hold it there and acknowledge how arrogant it is, it accentuates this notion of 'ego' that the teachers have put out.

That said, your post is insightful to your viewpoint. Just another thing, women do not wear make up for other people, they wear it because they feel good about it themselves, not my words either, a married man said that was the biggest thing he has ever learned since being married, and I'd have to agree with him, it's self confidence, not wanting to appease people.


I would also have to disagree about your EYE and EAR argument, i think sight reading and ear training are two skills that go hand in hand, if I may ask, where did you do your undergrad studies? Where I study BOTH skills are taught together, reading by sight and also hearing by sight, further to this imitating by hearing happens when one has an understanding of harmony.
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#1468579 - 07/05/10 11:29 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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hippyman, for all your posts, you haven't actually talked much of what you want to achieve musically.

Which artists do you like and listen to?

How are you practicing and what are your goals?

Are you composing, improvising?

Are you looking to perform, teach?

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#1468619 - 07/05/10 12:54 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Elissa Milne]
hippymusicman Offline
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Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
But some beliefs are more sound than others - this can argued and accepted by using agreed upon criteria. For instance, is it useful to believe that bridges are best built with balloons? Well, not overly useful if you are actually building a bridge, and possibly dangerous to the community at large should you ever try to actually build one.

This forum is about how to teach the piano.

The notion of 'musical genius' is one that teachers do not apply to their students, and those people who do apply it to those they meet are not in the business of teaching people how to play the piano. So your beliefs about this particular label are shared by absolutely everyone in this forum - no one thinks it applies to you!! And no one here would claim it for themselves or apply it to their students. So this is not about anyone thinking they are better than anyone else in the slightest.

On the other hand, words do have meanings, and calling yourself an elephant to prove how silly calling things elephants really is simply won't change the fact that there are elephants, and when you really do meet one it's useful to know it's not a giraffe, zebra or stingray.


I question all beliefs, especially 'sound' ones.. because the only possible outcome is more learning. Of course my questioning is backed up by reason and logic.. I'm not going to consider building a bridge out of balloons... I could definitely question the material bridges are made of. Maybe there is another material that is cheaper? more environmentally friendly? more stable? maybe recent advances in technology can contribute to creating such material. Maybe tying coloured balloons to a bridge will make it more beautiful to look at, therefor giving people more joy passing over it... increasing general happiness by 2%.. lol... you get my point.

There is no gain in thinking "concrete bridges are great. that's what everybody believes.. there is no need to question it.. it is sound."

Bridges are not my forte. But I'm very very fascinated by music and psychology.

I love trying to understand what makes people WANT to learn. What makes people love music, what makes people want to play music.. what are effective learning techniques.. and also things like why people have an underlying sense of dissatisfaction.. why people often hate their daddy.. why brothers fight with eachother... why everybody decides to block their ears out with music.. why are people greedy? .. why are people afraid? .. blah blah blah blah blah.

Welcome to my life of why. Every day is like a 15 hour brain workout. biggest work out comes from piano world... so thank you.

I'm sick of talking about the label thing. I think I've learned all I can.

Sooo back to music teaching...

I question the teaching system!!! Too many kids say they don't want to play an instrument anymore or they stopped playing an instrument.. This blows my mind.. and aches my heart. I think to myself 'poor child who has missed the essence and the beauty of music for whatever reason'

I have been trying things that appear to be very effective. That is, effective in the sense that my students love the lessons, love learning and always leave smiling. As a result of this, the students get good in the time between lessons.

My teachings are based on two units.

unit 1:
1.1 - How to enjoy a musical instrument.
1.2 - How to make learning fun.
1.3 - Breaking musical boundaries.
1.4 - Why people love music & musicians.
1.5 - Dealing with competitive musicians.

unit 2:
2.1 - How to teach yourself a musical instrument
2.2 - Teacher = motivator/external ear.
2.3 - How to create drives and motivators.
2.4 - How to analyze your own playing.
2.5 - Know what you want.

of course if they blitz unit 1.. there is usually little need for unit 2.
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#1468623 - 07/05/10 01:04 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: al-mahed]
hippymusicman Offline
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Originally Posted By: al-mahed
hippymusicman
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Posts: 90
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LOL


Either you are laughing with me, or at me. I want to believe with me.... but either way I'm laughing a lot at what it's bringing out in people. It's very very funny to me! And every time somebody mentions it, it becomes that much more hilarious! It's a twisted sense of humor that comes from understanding that 'musical genius' means exactly what each person thinks it means...
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#1468633 - 07/05/10 01:30 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Wizard of Oz]
hippymusicman Offline
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Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
hippyman, for all your posts, you haven't actually talked much of what you want to achieve musically.

Which artists do you like and listen to?

How are you practicing and what are your goals?

Are you composing, improvising?

Are you looking to perform, teach?



Wizard, you've asked almost this exact question before! . . .

I'm not looking to achieve. I don't feel the need to satisfy anything.. I'm simply creating as much beautiful music as I can to give to the world.

I don't listen to much music. But when I hear a new artist with interesting ideas I usually play it over and over until I understand how it was created. Then leave it. At the moment, I'm interested in the singing style, melody patterns and harmonies of 'the shins' album 'chute too narrow'.

I'm composing a musical, Teaching yr 11&12 music performance, in a corporate cover band, I recently starting write jingles for an advertising agency, I have already had a lot of experience performing in original bands but will consider creating more music to share in that way as well.

I feel like I've achieved what I want out of music. Because when I stop focusing on what to do next and just listen to where I'm at... I think, as a child, this is far more than I dreamed of.. I feel satisfied with music. arguably with life as well.. but it's hard to tell.
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#1468668 - 07/05/10 02:50 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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hippo, it's cause you never answered them, at least not properly.

Funny how you haven't bothered even asking one question since coming to the forums. You have a certain way of thinking, but you seem to not to want to be curious and learn, just that you know how music is and that's it.

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#1468807 - 07/05/10 06:22 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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HMM may I ask, how can you compose a musical when you claim to be a 'complete' ear musician? Can you notate your music? How can you compose for other musicians when you cant write your own music down? Where did you study music? And why don't you listen to much music, that is the golden rule of any musician, that is, to listen to music.
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#1468871 - 07/05/10 08:24 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
hippymusicman, this sentence: "welcome to my world of why" (and I note in passing the probably inadvertent implication that curiosity is uniquely yours) interested me greatly in your posts above, and I'd like to share some thoughts about living in a world of why.

In my experience (of which I hope to have much more), students who spend a lot of time asking "why?" consciously believe themselves to be expediting their learning through the interjection of this question throughout their lessons and their lives. They are mistaken. "Why?" is often deeply contextual, and asking "why is the sky blue" will result in a different answer depending on the pre-existing understanding held by the individual. "Why?" can take a lifetime to answer, there can always be deeper layers of cause, motivation and consequence.

There is a different curious question that would help genuinely curious students learn much faster - and that question is "how?"

"How?" is like why, but practical.

"How do I make that [staccato] sound?"
"How does the pedal work?"
"How do I modulate from this key to that?"
"How does this piece relate to that piece?"
"How do I play this tune on the flute?"
"How do I notate this music for banjo?"
"How does this cadence make me feel?"
"How can I play five notes in the time of three?"
"How do I read this chord chart?"

Students who live in a world of how? find the answers to 'why?' embedded in each and every one of their experiences.
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#1468873 - 07/05/10 08:27 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: Rebekah.L
HMM may I ask, how can you compose a musical when you claim to be a 'complete' ear musician? Can you notate your music? How can you compose for other musicians when you cant write your own music down? Where did you study music? And why don't you listen to much music, that is the golden rule of any musician, that is, to listen to music.
Irving Berlin was illiterate too (musically). Didn't seem to get in the way. But then he worked with people who had gained the magic skill of writing music notation and could communicate his ideas with others on his behalf.

NB: the magic skill of writing music notation is not bestowed upon mortals by Sibelius.
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#1468897 - 07/05/10 09:19 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Elissa Milne]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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Loc: Australia, Melbourne
That is true, in fact I've noticed composition students at the con use Sibelius a lot. But yes, notation software in my experience notates things 'too accurately' ... The scores look like something ridiculous and unplayable!
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#1468940 - 07/05/10 11:31 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Wizard of Oz]
hippymusicman Offline
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Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
hippo, it's cause you never answered them, at least not properly.

Funny how you haven't bothered even asking one question since coming to the forums. You have a certain way of thinking, but you seem to not to want to be curious and learn, just that you know how music is and that's it.


I pose my belief.. then receive other posed beliefs. And this is how I learn. All I 'know' is how music is for me.. what I can learn from is hearing how music is for others.

Please believe me when I say, "I am here to learn not have battles."
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#1468948 - 07/05/10 11:59 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
hippymusicman Offline
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Posts: 150
ELISSA MILNE! How I love what you just wrote...

Your 'how' theory is infinitely stimulating! I loved reading it because It was pure belief on belief. Had nothing to do with me as a person. So Thank you.

I believe people get caught up in the 'how' because they see no answer for 'why'... therefore covering up the unanswerable 'why' with the more easily answerable 'how'.. somewhere along the line people can answer the 'why' for themselves.

I would love to hear your thoughts on how focusing on 'how' brings students to answering 'why' through their journey and experiences!!! I ABSOLUTELY LOVE THIS IDEA!grin !!

I feel it's almost worth turning it into one of those famous wise quotes written by "anon" (because labels are not important , hehe)

So long as it's a 'memorable quote'.. what about something amazingly simple and in many ways corny:

Only by living in the 'how' are we drawn closer to the 'why' ~ Anon

Or do you like this one better:

Only by living in the 'how' are we drawn closer to the 'why' ~ Elissa Milne
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#1468972 - 07/06/10 01:12 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
hippymusicman Offline
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Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: Rebekah.L
HMM may I ask, how can you compose a musical when you claim to be a 'complete' ear musician? Can you notate your music? How can you compose for other musicians when you cant write your own music down? Where did you study music? And why don't you listen to much music, that is the golden rule of any musician, that is, to listen to music.


I can't notate my music without using music notating software.

The confusion of how it's possible to create without the eye part raises an interesting idea.. I think notated music has been seen as the 'only way' for a while .. but as technology improves, I can now record audio files, layer them, edit them, create midi patters (very similar to how one would edit the music on paper) But instead of having to read the music back each time, it's just a matter of pressing 'play'. Then focused listening is possible... and fine tuning the sound I imagine is a lot easier. Instead of calling for a string quartet to rehearse parts and play with what sounds good, it's all done on the computer. Download the sounds for strings, then mix and match and edit.

At this point they obviously don't sound as good as real strings but it works fine for the composing process. That being said... It's easy to see the direction things are going in.. it's only a matter of time before a fake instrument can not be differentiated from a real one in terms of audio recordings.

There are some 'virtual pianos' out there that are becoming amazingly, scarily similar to real grand pianos, Because they are created by recording each note and each length of note and each volume of note on REAL grand pianos. e.g. This one is amongst the leaders of the pack I believe... http://www.artvista.net/Virtual_Grand_Piano.html

There are "virtual instruments" for just about every instrument. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep-suUtxIrA&feature=related.

So essentially pressing each key on the keyboard triggers a recording of a real recording of the real instrument.

basically, I can create all the songs with all the parts with music software first, then the very last thing to do is have it transcribed to paper for the one purpose of having it recreated by other musicians in a live setting.. with technology, while it doesn't sound completely 'real' now, the creation process doesn't seem to be held back by the fact.
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#1469000 - 07/06/10 02:49 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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Yeah thats true, sure software makes things possible but software is not always and completely the answer, I find some things inhibiting one is that the music is recorded as 'too' precise that it is unplayable by other musicians. I'm curious to where you studied, because I would think that you would HAVE to read and use notation when you studied...
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#1469083 - 07/06/10 06:47 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
LimeFriday Offline
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Just a question - what classes are you teaching Year 11 and 12?

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#1469091 - 07/06/10 07:27 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: LimeFriday]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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(just a little tangent .. I'm starting to notice quite a few Aussie members! This is wonderful! .. Hopefully none of my teachers read this... LOL )


Edited by Rebekah.L (07/06/10 08:49 AM)
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#1469112 - 07/06/10 08:29 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Canonie Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rebekah.L
(just a little tangent .. I'm starting to notice quite a few Aussie members! This is wonderful! .. Hopefully done of my teachers read this... LOL )
Rebekah!!
You should be practising your scales!
wink
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#1469184 - 07/06/10 10:55 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: LimeFriday]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: LimeFriday
Just a question - what classes are you teaching Year 11 and 12?
I can guess.

Hey, I love this! (posted in PC)
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#1469573 - 07/06/10 11:21 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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@ Caroline LOL
and KBK that is classic!
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#1472160 - 07/11/10 05:55 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
hippymusicman Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rebekah.L
Yeah thats true, sure software makes things possible but software is not always and completely the answer, I find some things inhibiting one is that the music is recorded as 'too' precise that it is unplayable by other musicians. I'm curious to where you studied, because I would think that you would HAVE to read and use notation when you studied...


I didn't study at any institution. I just played a lot and learned as I went. I'd hear songs and imitate them, hear what sounds good and always be trying new things.
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#1472162 - 07/11/10 06:03 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: LimeFriday]
hippymusicman Offline
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Originally Posted By: LimeFriday
Just a question - what classes are you teaching Year 11 and 12?


- Instrumental music: which is basically helping the kids with guitar, piano, drums and bass when they want it.

- Music performance: which is everything from song structures, set structures, stage presence... how to use dynamics and intensity in each song and in the whole set. How to set up equipment effectively.. tips for improving the live show e.g. Audience participation, not leaving gaps between songs, style variations, big endings, how to get the sound balanced with volume and EQ and amp positioning etc.

Basically... they have a band with an act... and I help make it translate to an audience and for their examiners.
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#1472172 - 07/11/10 06:44 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
hippymusicman Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rebekah.L
Hippymusician, I dont mean to use the age label, but as a young person I do have to say you sound like a collegue of mine who is YOUNG and EXCITED about changing and making music education better. I have read through your posts and I'm going to be honest, although you make no claims of saying you are better, your post seems to be authoritative, and I personally find it ironic that you label it "Musical genius, how to be one" ... that sounds like you have the answers. Although you even say to excuse the title, the fact that you still hold it there and acknowledge how arrogant it is, it accentuates this notion of 'ego' that the teachers have put out.

Just another thing, women do not wear make up for other people, they wear it because they feel good about it themselves, not my words either, a married man said that was the biggest thing he has ever learned since being married, and I'd have to agree with him, it's self confidence, not wanting to appease people.


1- I would like to meet this young excited colleague of yours!

2- The title was created to be ironic.. It also shows me all the people who are able to see passed labels. whether or not people were going to respond without attacking is interesting in itself! Some spoke.. some refused to speak and defended. That is interesting.

3- women and makeup.. hmmm...

Why do you feel the need to wear makeup for self confidence? I have to assume, that you believe there is a 'right' and 'wrong' way to look. You believe that without makeup you look 'wrong'. This is self consciousness.

Who is to say what looks 'right' and 'wrong'? I believe it is other people, but you are agreeing with them.

Why are so many people self conscious? I believe it's because people focus on external elements and therefor miss what is important. The internal. In this case, it seems you can not see through your own exterior either.

Do you believe that if everybody in the world suddenly believed 'makeup is ugly', you would still wear it because it's about YOU.. and not appeasing other people?

My beliefs clash with "women do not wear makeup for other people". And so I am interested
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#1472306 - 07/11/10 12:49 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
yumo Offline
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I think it's interesting that you're conducting experiments on people, and classifying them based on the reactions you get, or don't get.

Carry on, I've got stuff to do. While it is sometimes fun to listen to somebody who sounds like they just got done with a 2 day acid trip that concluded with some sort of psychological/transcendental/existential enlightenment, it gets old, fast.


Edited by yumo (07/11/10 12:53 PM)
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#1472310 - 07/11/10 01:07 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: yumo]
keyboardklutz Offline
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+1!
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#1472327 - 07/11/10 01:42 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: keyboardklutz]
Ben Crosland Offline
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+1 from me, too - and thread win IMO laugh
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#1472702 - 07/12/10 03:40 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: yumo]
hippymusicman Offline
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Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: yumo
I think it's interesting that you're conducting experiments on people, and classifying them based on the reactions you get, or don't get.

Carry on, I've got stuff to do. While it is sometimes fun to listen to somebody who sounds like they just got done with a 2 day acid trip that concluded with some sort of psychological/transcendental/existential enlightenment, it gets old, fast.


I 'conduct experiments' on people to better understand people. From understanding other people, I can better understand myself. I do also 'conduct experiments' on myself and question why I do things etc.

Understandably, It may look like I am classifying and judging people. I'm not. I'm not doing this to make myself feel above anybody. I believe we are all the same underneath the incessant thinking patterns and mindsets.

I am interested in hearing why the ideas were at first 'fun' but now annoying. What part of the sharing of ideas made them annoying? Or at what point in reading the ideas did you feel annoyed? Which of my beliefs are you annoyed at?
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#1472710 - 07/12/10 04:18 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
yumo Offline
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Probably your deep thoughts on makeup. Even though you and I might agree that if we were women, we probably wouldn't choose to wear any or much makeup, or to apply it to our hands instead of our faces.

I enjoyed considering your ideas about music, listening, conformance, etc.

I used to enjoy a song called the Screams of Passion, written by Prince, I think, but the version I enjoyed most was performed by The Family. One of the lines, as I recall, goes something like "A robin sings a masterpiece and lives and dies unheard." I always enjoyed that line, and your initial thoughts about putting down an instrument and listening made me think about that, and all of the works of art that exist, unappreciated.

But there is a line between sharing ideas and pontificating, and whether or not you intended to do so, and without regard to whether you actually did so, it seems to me that you crossed that line. Many people cross that line--some more than others--but it's no unusual or great sin. I expect, rather than think about whether or not you've crossed that line, and whether the annoyance you detect is justified, you'll think about why I and others feel the way we do, and claim it's for your own edification. Then you'll ask why I have this expectation. And so on.

Very tiresome.

It might be more productive to apply your beliefs to your own life, accomplish greatness in whatever form you desire, be that acclaim or irrelevance, and then let those results speak for your ideas, even at the risk of going unheard.

To everybody else, there is an acronym that expresses an idea: DNFTT. I have violated this, and I apologize.


Edited by yumo (07/12/10 04:19 AM)
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#1472712 - 07/12/10 04:22 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: yumo]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Yumo, I PM'd you.
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#1472719 - 07/12/10 04:52 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: yumo]
hippymusicman Offline
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Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: yumo
Probably your deep thoughts on makeup. Even though you and I might agree that if we were women, we probably wouldn't choose to wear any or much makeup, or to apply it to our hands instead of our faces.

I enjoyed considering your ideas about music, listening, conformance, etc.

I used to enjoy a song called the Screams of Passion, written by Prince, I think, but the version I enjoyed most was performed by The Family. One of the lines, as I recall, goes something like "A robin sings a masterpiece and lives and dies unheard." I always enjoyed that line, and your initial thoughts about putting down an instrument and listening made me think about that, and all of the works of art that exist, unappreciated.

But there is a line between sharing ideas and pontificating, and whether or not you intended to do so, and without regard to whether you actually did so, it seems to me that you crossed that line. Many people cross that line--some more than others--but it's no unusual or great sin. I expect, rather than think about whether or not you've crossed that line, and whether the annoyance you detect is justified, you'll think about why I and others feel the way we do, and claim it's for your own edification. Then you'll ask why I have this expectation. And so on.

Very tiresome.

It might be more productive to apply your beliefs to your own life, accomplish greatness in whatever form you desire, be that acclaim or irrelevance, and then let those results speak for your ideas, even at the risk of going unheard.

To everybody else, there is an acronym that expresses an idea: DNFTT. I have violated this, and I apologize.


You say I have crossed the line sharing my deep thoughts on makeup. I don't understand this at all. Until I understand why some topics are considered fine to share beliefs on, while other topics are not, Until I understand where the line is, I don't think I can stop accidentally crossing it!

Please help me understand where that line is so I don't cross it in the future and create any further annoyance.

At the moment, I don't feel I am crossing any line, but rather, the topic I am expressing beliefs about is crossing a line.

I also believe that some people can be sensitive to certain topics. Therefore, they react differently to discussion about certain topics. Forgive me for putting you in this basket. I just don't quite understand this yet.

The idea that some topics are fine and some are over a line is confusing. It's confusing because other people are happy to discuss all sorts of topics like makeup etc they find it stimulating and interesting, not threatening, pontificating or tiresome.

help.
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#1472986 - 07/12/10 03:09 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
JimF Offline
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Quote:
DNFTT


+1 thumb
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#1472996 - 07/12/10 03:52 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
eweiss Offline
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Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
You say I have crossed the line sharing my deep thoughts on makeup. I don't understand this at all. Until I understand why some topics are considered fine to share beliefs on, while other topics are not, Until I understand where the line is, I don't think I can stop accidentally crossing it!

You didn't cross 'the' line HM, you crossed his line. I don't have a problem with what you wrote because I understand you wanted to open up discussion. You just didn't do it in the way some might approve of. Good for you. Keep posting and don't let other's opinions or deragatory comments sway you.
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#1473060 - 07/12/10 05:18 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Wizard of Oz]
bitWrangler Offline
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Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
I don't like to have a rating system. Because a rating system holds no purpose. In my mind, nobody is better than anybody. Everybody is as they are.


Well you may want to think that, but there are certainly certain "ratings" that are quantitative measures (e.g. faster) where there are people that are "better" than other people. As well, even with piano there are more quantitative measures, e.g. "person A is better at playing the music as written than person B", and I'm not talking about minor variances, the _fact_ is that my daughter can play Clair de Lune "better" than I can (considering I can't play it at all). And again, careful not to be exclusive in your inclusiveness. Though you claim ratings hold no purpose, that obviously is not true since by making that statement you are assigning value to a particular belief over another, you've "rated" them and choose the one that was "better" for you. Human beings label, rate, make assumptions, etc because that's the way our grey matter works (yours too).

Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
I believe the ego is speaking when there is any intent to separate one being from another. This is not an attack, but I believe your post did this. It is not an existential crisis. It happens all the time with just about everyone.


The "ego" is not just a defense mechanism nor is it's only purpose to "separate one being from another". The more extremes of the word may imply this (e.g. "egotistical", "ego maniacal") but the word ego by itself does not necessarily.

Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
Imagine telling a blind person they look beautiful. The response might be "what makes a person say such things?" That is how I feel when someone calls me names like 'genius'.. Or 'attractive' for that matter. "that's not needed here because I don't feel down about it in the first place... but I'm curious as to why you want to say it"


As someone else has mentioned, someone calling you "a genius" or "attractive" is relative to the person assigning you those labels only. If someone is inclined to use such terminology because it describes the context in which they've assigned particular attributes they perceive in you why is that somehow related to your particular reaction. Are you also implying that you don't find anyone or anything more attractive/beautiful/aesthetically pleasing than anything/one else? Do you never have the emotion of "admiration"? Do you honestly get the same emotion from every single piece of music you listen to?

Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
I 'll explain again. "Musical genius" is a label that means nothing. e.g. A baby can call me a musical genius. It therefor has no merit. Musical genius = not important/nothing.


Just because a baby can assign the label to you, it doesn't make the label itself meaningless. In the context of the baby, you _are_ a musical genius. It sounds like the concept that you are discounting is that the majority of labels are relative and contextual. If a pauper considers me rich and a billionaire considers me poor, does it make either label meaningless, no, in each context they are correct. If you use measurable labels (e.g. poor = those making below 50% of average median income) then you can ascribe a less relativistic label.

Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
The reason I have 'Musical Genius' as my signature, is to make a statement and try to prove a point.. That point is: "All labels mean nothing but self satisfaction." And everybody is looking for satisfaction. So everybody puts labels on themselves.


Again I would disagree, to make an all encompassing statement "All labels" actually defeats your argument vs "proving" it. Not all, and let's be specific here, self ascribed labels are for "self satisfaction", to say so shows a lack of understanding of human nature and human interaction (and forum rules wink ).

Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
E.g. If I said the sky is Red.. If you were comfortable with beliefs of the sky, you'd just explain that you believe it is blue, and tell me why, So I can learn.


But you're not saying "the sky is red", you're saying "the sky has no color and any attempt to label it a particular color is wrong". We can talk about more concrete measurements (e.g. light wavelength) and then we can come to an agreement about what labels we decide to assign those wavelengths and then we can agree on a particular label to use.

Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
I want to share my beliefs on labels because a lot of people judge others on their labels without considering what's beneath the label. A good example is the way women are judged on their appearance without people seeing what's beneath the appearance. I wholeheartedly believe such things are external, and irrelevant.

I believe people put up labels because they wish other people to value them more... like women apply make-up. The question is, why do you feel the need to appear more valuable? The only conclusion I have is: people have an underlying feeling of being invaluable.. I believe a lot of people have this.

Focusing on external, to me is just one big burden! If you stop focusing on externals: appearance, labels, clothes, cars, facebooks, websites, race, religion, beliefs etc etc.. then there is no more competing, no more pain, no more self consciousness .. no more racism. no more conflict between people.


But you yourself are doing exactly what you are ascribing to others. You are making assumptions based purely on "labels" on how people view themselves. You say if one uses labels that one must be a certain way, you've now "labeled" them based on external criteria (posts on this forum). People use from 0 to (n) number of criteria when it comes to "judging" things, external factors play a part in this as well as "internal" factors. Different people have different weights on each of those factors. Why is being attracted to someone for their "sense of humor" any better or worse than liking someone for the shape of their body? Either way some criterion is used to make an assessment that will eventually end up excluding some and including others?

And lastly, what about human nature leads you to believe that any type of focus on "non-external" attributes will lead to "no more competing, no more pain, no more self consciousness"? So if I focus on someones belief system or skills of logical analysis that will make me not want to classify, categorize, label, like, dislike them? I think that will not be the eventual outcome.

Anyway, back to music. I think it's great to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. The "classic" method of music training is certainly not for everybody and I applaud and encourage those who can figure out ways to make a living teaching those who don't fit that mold. As for actually contributing to this thread, I think that one area that is often overlooked is context and background. When it comes to getting my family members more interested in things that they might not find otherwise interesting is to provide some context and background. For example, I listen to a lot of opera, not exactly most peoples favorite form of music. I would play it in the car when I drove the kids to school in the mornings. Generally they would just read or zone out. One morning when one of my more favorite pieces was playing ("Un bel di vedremo") I described what the song was actually about to the kids and explained what the various parts were (from what I could remember). This instantly made my daughter more interested (alas my son was not impressed smile ). I did this with several other of my favorites and she now has much more interest in opera. I've done this as well with my wife and sports/motorsports and it actually works quite well. I think it creates a more emotionally involvement thereby drawing the person in more. I know that often teachers are happy if students can remember the name and composer of the piece and any type of background/context for the piece itself is never mentioned. Perhaps as the students get older and have to "get into the piece" more, but not at an earlier age.

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#1473074 - 07/12/10 05:52 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: bitWrangler]
Morodiene Offline
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Great post BitWrangler smile

Greater than some, perhaps not as great as others. I say that based on my own perception of what a good post is, from my own personality and likes and dislikes. In other words, my opinion.

[those are still allowed, right? ;)]


Edited by Morodiene (07/12/10 05:54 PM)
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#1473108 - 07/12/10 07:25 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: bitWrangler]
eweiss Offline
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Originally Posted By: bitWrangler
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
I don't like to have a rating system. Because a rating system holds no purpose. In my mind, nobody is better than anybody. Everybody is as they are.


Well you may want to think that, but there are certainly certain "ratings" that are quantitative measures (e.g. faster) where there are people that are "better" than other people. As well, even with piano there are more quantitative measures, e.g. "person A is better at playing the music as written than person B", and I'm not talking about minor variances, the _fact_ is that my daughter can play Clair de Lune "better" than I can (considering I can't play it at all). And again, careful not to be exclusive in your inclusiveness. Though you claim ratings hold no purpose, that obviously is not true since by making that statement you are assigning value to a particular belief over another, you've "rated" them and choose the one that was "better" for you. Human beings label, rate, make assumptions, etc because that's the way our grey matter works (yours too).

wow Guess you told him.
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#1473113 - 07/12/10 07:32 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: eweiss]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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Dang this thread still going?!!?! Hippy music, go play some Jimi Hendrix and get "Experienced"

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#1473116 - 07/12/10 07:35 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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Actually, some Grateful Dead might just be the thing you need.

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#1473413 - 07/13/10 10:32 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: eweiss]
hippymusicman Offline
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Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Originally Posted By: eweiss
You didn't cross 'the' line HM, you crossed his line. I don't have a problem with what you wrote because I understand you wanted to open up discussion. You just didn't do it in the way some might approve of. Good for you. Keep posting and don't let other's opinions or deragatory comments sway you.


Thank you.
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#1473466 - 07/13/10 12:21 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: bitWrangler]
hippymusicman Offline
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Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
Real discussion! grin

Originally Posted By: bitWrangler
Well you may want to think that, but there are certainly certain "ratings" that are quantitative measures (e.g. faster) where there are people that are "better" than other people. As well, even with piano there are more quantitative measures, e.g. "person A is better at playing the music as written than person B", and I'm not talking about minor variances, the _fact_ is that my daughter can play Clair de Lune "better" than I can (considering I can't play it at all). And again, careful not to be exclusive in your inclusiveness. Though you claim ratings hold no purpose, that obviously is not true since by making that statement you are assigning value to a particular belief over another, you've "rated" them and choose the one that was "better" for you. Human beings label, rate, make assumptions, etc because that's the way our grey matter works (yours too).

I do not make any connection between the speed someone can play at and the term 'better'.. similarly I don't make a connection between the ability to process notated music more fluently and faster with the word 'better'. Songs are not better or worse, they just cause different reactions in people. But that isn't to say one is better... To label one song with 'better' is to unnecessarily give it a greater sense of value, in doing so giving others a lesser sense of value...

The same principal applies with beliefs. I have not rated them better or worse. They are not right or wrong... they just react differently in different people. They make me react a certain way, but the way in which I act is not then better or worse or right or wrong, It just IS.

Originally Posted By: bitWrangler

The "ego" is not just a defense mechanism nor is it's only purpose to "separate one being from another". The more extremes of the word may imply this (e.g. "egotistical", "ego maniacal") but the word ego by itself does not necessarily.

Ego - "an inflated feeling of pride in your superiority to others." It's not exactly a defense mechanism... but I believe it can have its own entity and a lot of people have created a sense of self through it... therefor when the ego is threatened it instinctively defends.

A good e.g: If I said "I believe the best way to learn piano is through taking heroin and smoking weed and I have learned this way and I am able to do this and play that" to somebody who has created a strong sense of identity through their beliefs about piano.. (assume that I then played something beautiful) The person's ego can easily feel attacked and start the battle process, even though I was simply stating what I believed in, my story and what I was capable of...

The ego labels these things with right and wrong because it wants to be right. It will likely try to dismiss my belief instead of understand it. Without a strong ego, the response to my proposed beliefs and story would be non responsive and might even be considered interesting.

Of course, my story could definitely be perceived as egoistic... but it takes 2 strong egos to start an ego battle.

Originally Posted By: bitWrangler

As someone else has mentioned, someone calling you "a genius" or "attractive" is relative to the person assigning you those labels only. If someone is inclined to use such terminology because it describes the context in which they've assigned particular attributes they perceive in you why is that somehow related to your particular reaction. Are you also implying that you don't find anyone or anything more attractive/beautiful/aesthetically pleasing than anything/one else? Do you never have the emotion of "admiration"? Do you honestly get the same emotion from every single piece of music you listen to?

I couldn't digest the first big question... could you rephrase it?
I'm implying that I find all things equally as beautiful.. and external things like physical beauty are now close to meaningless. I do feel admiration towards others.. I feel attracted to women.. but image has become a very small part of it. And I get a different emotion from each peace of music I listen to.
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#1475194 - 07/15/10 10:26 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: bitWrangler]
hippymusicman Offline
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Originally Posted By: bitWrangler
Just because a baby can assign the label to you, it doesn't make the label itself meaningless. In the context of the baby, you _are_ a musical genius. It sounds like the concept that you are discounting is that the majority of labels are relative and contextual. If a pauper considers me rich and a billionaire considers me poor, does it make either label meaningless, no, in each context they are correct. If you use measurable labels (e.g. poor = those making below 50% of average median income) then you can ascribe a less relativistic label.


Each label, and the definition of the label, exists only in the mind of whoever is labeling. You may not consider yourself 'rich'... but a starving, homeless person might consider you far beyond 'rich'.

In your mind you can either think like a poorer man and label yourself 'rich' or think like a richer man and label yourself 'poor'. Either way, the label means nothing more than what you think it means.

The idea is to stop labeling things and just let them be as they are. No right, wrong, better, worse.

Originally Posted By: bitWrangler
...to make an all encompassing statement "All labels" actually defeats your argument vs "proving" it. Not all, and let's be specific here, self ascribed labels are for "self satisfaction", to say so shows a lack of understanding of human nature and human interaction (and forum rules wink ).


You have suggested what labels are not... ?!

Originally Posted By: bitWrangler
But you're not saying "the sky is red", you're saying "the sky has no color and any attempt to label it a particular color is wrong". We can talk about more concrete measurements (e.g. light wavelength) and then we can come to an agreement about what labels we decide to assign those wavelengths and then we can agree on a particular label to use.


I'm not saying 'the sky has no colour'. The labels 'Blue' and 'Red' mean what we think it means. We associate the label with the colour that we see. The meaning of the label exists in our minds.

If somebody else learned the colours differently, (our colour 'blue', is actually 'Blag' or 'Green' for that matter) they would only appear to be 'wrong' to someone who learned the standard colours. So in that sense they are not 'wrong' they are just different.

Originally Posted By: bitWrangler
But you yourself are doing exactly what you are ascribing to others. You are making assumptions based purely on "labels" on how people view themselves. You say if one uses labels that one must be a certain way, you've now "labeled" them based on external criteria (posts on this forum). People use from 0 to (n) number of criteria when it comes to "judging" things, external factors play a part in this as well as "internal" factors. Different people have different weights on each of those factors. Why is being attracted to someone for their "sense of humor" any better or worse than liking someone for the shape of their body? Either way some criterion is used to make an assessment that will eventually end up excluding some and including others?


I have not classified or labeled 'them' as people.
We are sharing beliefs. The more the beliefs are attached to each person's sense of self, the more it feels like they are being judged and classified personally.

I did not use the word 'must' like you suggested.

Liking somebody for their sense of humour is equally as external as liking somebody for their appearance.

If we are able to see past external things, nobody gets excluded.

Originally Posted By: bitWrangler
And lastly, what about human nature leads you to believe that any type of focus on "non-external" attributes will lead to "no more competing, no more pain, no more self consciousness"? So if I focus on someones belief system or skills of logical analysis that will make me not want to classify, categorize, label, like, dislike them? I think that will not be the eventual outcome.


'Beliefs' and 'skills' are also external.

It's very hard to explain 'internal'.
All you can do is explain what it is not.

It's what is left when you can clearly acknowledge all the activity that goes on in the brain.
The observer of the thoughts is the internal one.

"I" am separate from my thoughts.
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#1475381 - 07/16/10 09:10 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Elissa Milne Offline
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An observation: the only basis we have for preferring one person's company from another person's company is external data.

Another observation: the more research that is done into the human brain the more intriguing it is to think about where the non-external self resides. We know that nutrition controls mood, electrical impluses change our inclinations, posture impacts on emotional response, and most interestingly of all - it seems that our bodies begin to act just ever so slightly before our brain decides, which begs many questions regarding what free will, agency and consciousness are.

I doubt that any of us can clearly acknowledge all the activity that goes on in the brain, therefore we can never distinguish what is internal and what is external.

This is not my belief, hippymusicman. This is the application of deductive reasoning to the available data as relating to your assertions regarding what is. Because I am confident in the data and I am confident in the reasoning, I hold this view until new data or better reasoning enter my awareness.
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#1475396 - 07/16/10 09:40 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
Originally Posted By: bitWrangler
Just because a baby can assign the label to you, it doesn't make the label itself meaningless. In the context of the baby, you _are_ a musical genius. It sounds like the concept that you are discounting is that the majority of labels are relative and contextual. If a pauper considers me rich and a billionaire considers me poor, does it make either label meaningless, no, in each context they are correct. If you use measurable labels (e.g. poor = those making below 50% of average median income) then you can ascribe a less relativistic label.


Each label, and the definition of the label, exists only in the mind of whoever is labeling. You may not consider yourself 'rich'... but a starving, homeless person might consider you far beyond 'rich'.

In your mind you can either think like a poorer man and label yourself 'rich' or think like a richer man and label yourself 'poor'. Either way, the label means nothing more than what you think it means.





In your world, how can you communicate if words have no meaning? I guess Meriam Webster had it all wrong when he wrote the dictionary.

Just because some adjectives require a comparison of those in one's area (i.e., rich in comparison to those in that person's economic region), does not mean they therefore have no meaning. They have context.

rich
   /rɪtʃ/
–adjective
1.
having wealth or great possessions; abundantly supplied with resources, means, or funds; wealthy: a rich man; a rich nation.

If I practice to "get better" at piano, it is a comparison to oneself. Better than whom? Better than yourself the day before practicing. They are not meaningless words, in fact, the are very descriptive words that helps the person listening understand more about the person being talked about.

If I say I have a rich friend, then the listener can infer that this person in particular has more money than I. That is not meaningless, just the opposite! It can create a lot of subcontext for the listener: in what way were those words said? Are they jealous of their friend? Are they proud of their friend? Or was it said without any such emotion to lead you to think that the disparity between the friend's financial situation and the speaker's is of no consequence to their relationship?

How can you say this has no meaning? This is taking post modernism to its most ridiculous conclusion.

Quote:

The idea is to stop labeling things and just let them be as they are. No right, wrong, better, worse.

Why? What's wrong with describing something and providing context? Whoops, there's one of those words we're not supposed to use, and yet, you are saying that it's wrong to use them just the same. Obviously, they *do* have meaning.
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#1475410 - 07/16/10 10:00 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Elissa Milne]
Ben Crosland Offline
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Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
... and most interestingly of all - it seems that our bodies begin to act just ever so slightly before our brain decides


I am often made keenly aware of this phenomenon. Being a slightly anxious type of person, if I hear any sudden bang, I always jump - what I've noticed on several occasions is that I jump before I consciously register the sound itself.
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#1475419 - 07/16/10 10:06 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Elissa Milne]
hippymusicman Offline
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Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
I doubt that any of us can clearly acknowledge all the activity that goes on in the brain, therefore we can never distinguish what is internal and what is external.

This is not my belief, hippymusicman. This is the application of deductive reasoning to the available data as relating to your assertions regarding what is. Because I am confident in the data and I am confident in the reasoning, I hold this view until new data or better reasoning enter my awareness.


But that is a belief... you believe nobody can clearly focus on the brains activity. Because of a lack of data and reasoning.

For what it's worth, and you can chose to believe me or not, I believe focusing on the brains activity is possible because I have been doing it through meditation. I can work at separating myself from my thoughts, to a point where I am experiencing a sense of joy from simply existing.. there is gratitude for every moment witnessed.. and all emotional pain has been greatly diminished.. little or no self conscious, little or no underlying sense of fear... no sense of regret or anxiety. I have an underlying deep sense of innerpeace, while happy/sad events happen on the surface..

Whether you chose to enter that into your awareness or not. I don't really mind. understandably it's far from 'data'. But If it does start to interest you, meditation is where I started exploring the idea.
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#1475422 - 07/16/10 10:11 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Ben Crosland Offline
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Originally Posted By: hippymusicman

Each label, and the definition of the label, exists only in the mind of whoever is labeling.


Yes, but it seems like you are drawing a false conclusion from this. So long as there is reasonable consensus between people as to the definition of such labels, then they can have as much meaning as any other words in our language.

You seem to credit people with far less intelligence than they deserve with regard to their ability to understand the relativistic nature of such labels.


Quote:

The idea is to stop labeling things and just let them be as they are. No right, wrong, better, worse.


Let us clarify that this is 'your' idea, not 'the' idea. I am comfortable with the idea of gradation and classification, where I deem it to be appropriate. Just because it can be difficult to say exactly where a specific concept lies on a scale such as right/wrong, this does not render the concepts themselves as obsolete - rather it simply means that their meaning is best left to intuition and experience.
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#1475445 - 07/16/10 10:39 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Morodiene]
hippymusicman Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene
If I say I have a rich friend, then the listener can infer that this person in particular has more money than I. That is not meaningless, just the opposite! It can create a lot of subcontext for the listener: in what way were those words said? Are they jealous of their friend? Are they proud of their friend? Or was it said without any such emotion to lead you to think that the disparity between the friend's financial situation and the speaker's is of no consequence to their relationship?

How can you say this has no meaning? This is taking post modernism to its most ridiculous conclusion.


The label 'rich' is still meaningless to me. If somebody says "my friend is rich" I still have to know what their definition of rich is before I know how much money their friend has. If a child said "my friend is rich" it might mean he has $3.

So the label 'rich' is nothing until you define the label for yourself. All I can define it as is "ownership of any amount of material possessions".

You're all 'rich'.. and 'poor'.

Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Quote:

The idea is to stop labeling things and just let them be as they are. No right, wrong, better, worse.

Why? What's wrong with describing something and providing context? Whoops, there's one of those words we're not supposed to use, and yet, you are saying that it's wrong to use them just the same. Obviously, they *do* have meaning.


haha! I laughed at this. Because there is absolutely nothing wrong with it! I didn't say you wern't supposed to use them, I was just expressing an idea that you don't have to use them..
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#1475468 - 07/16/10 11:10 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Ben Crosland]
hippymusicman Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ben Crosland
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman

The idea is to stop labeling things and just let them be as they are. No right, wrong, better, worse.


Let us clarify that this is 'your' idea, not 'the' idea. I am comfortable with the idea of gradation and classification, where I deem it to be appropriate. Just because it can be difficult to say exactly where a specific concept lies on a scale such as right/wrong, this does not render the concepts themselves as obsolete - rather it simply means that their meaning is best left to intuition and experience.


'The' Idea that I'm playing with:
Attaching labels to yourself or somebody else holds no other need than to increase the perceived sense of value in the person. We need them to feel good.
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#1475469 - 07/16/10 11:13 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Morodiene Offline
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No, we need adjectives to explain our thoughts better.
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#1475537 - 07/16/10 12:39 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
jotur Offline
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Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
But that is a belief... you believe nobody can clearly focus on the brains activity. Because of a lack of data and reasoning.

For what it's worth, and you can chose to believe me or not, I believe focusing on the brains activity is possible because I have been doing it through meditation. I can work at separating myself from my thoughts, to a point where I am experiencing a sense of joy from simply existing.. there is gratitude for every moment witnessed.. and all emotional pain has been greatly diminished.. little or no self conscious, little or no underlying sense of fear... no sense of regret or anxiety. I have an underlying deep sense of innerpeace, while happy/sad events happen on the surface..

Whether you chose to enter that into your awareness or not. I don't really mind. understandably it's far from 'data'. But If it does start to interest you, meditation is where I started exploring the idea.


Two books I've read and re-read recently address this phenomenon, and the one Elissa et al mentioned about responding before you are consciously aware:

Andrew Newberg, MD and Mark Robert Waldman, Born to Believe: God, Science, and the Origin of Ordinary and Extraordinary Beliefs

Robert A. Burton, MD, On Being Certain: Believing You Are Right Even When You're Not


Born to Believe, among other things, reports on studies the author did of various meditators and people who practice other techniques - an atheist, nuns, Buddhists, and one who speaks in tongues. It explores how their experiences are the same, how they are different, and, to me very importantly, how they interpret their experiences. This seems to me relevant to how hippymusicman interprets his experiences from meditation as "separating myself from my thoughts." And "separating myself from my thoughts" is an interpretation of the experience. Someone else might describe a similar experience quite differently. So telling Elissa she can "choose to enter into her awareness or not" is, um, distinctly telling her that her interpretation of her experiences is only valid if it matches his. Just sayin'.

On Being Certain gives some different perspectives on hippymusician's certainty that he separates his thoughts from himself, that labels are meaningless to him, that he has abandoned his need to compare himself to others, etc smile

Very thought-provoking books. There is certainly a wide world out there. And in there, too, for that matter.

Cathy



Edited by jotur (07/16/10 12:41 PM)
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#1475541 - 07/16/10 12:44 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: jotur]
keyboardklutz Offline
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“In his brilliant new book, Burton systematically and convincingly shows that certainty is a mental state, a feeling like anger or pride that can help guide us, but that doesn't dependably reflect objective truth" So, so true. Hence deja vu.
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#1475763 - 07/16/10 07:38 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
LimeFriday Offline
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Originally Posted By: hippymusicman


'The' Idea that I'm playing with:
Attaching labels to yourself or somebody else holds no other need than to increase the perceived sense of value in the person. We need them to feel good.



'Another' idea is that what you call labels are in fact words used to place conversation in context. Some people may use some words as labels to judge others - but many people use words not to judge others but to describe them in ways that convey meaning and provide context.

Otherwise we'd all go round sounding like a bad self-help book!

A couple of questions - Why does description imply judgement? And why do you see judgement as synonymous with 'value judgements' about other people? But judging others as less than in order to make ourselves feel better?

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#1475781 - 07/16/10 08:07 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: LimeFriday]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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HIPPO MAN, here's a quote from a jazz cat, might be good to heed his advice:

“Master your instrument. Master the music. And then forget all that bullshit and just play.” Charlie Parker

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#1475861 - 07/16/10 11:34 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: LimeFriday]
hippymusicman Offline
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Originally Posted By: LimeFriday
A couple of questions - Why does description imply judgement? And why do you see judgement as synonymous with 'value judgements' about other people? But judging others as less than in order to make ourselves feel better?


Describing people as their external label seems almost insane. It seems we like to separate people. The only way we can do this is externally, (we are all just living creatures).. We can separate ourselves with labels. This creates 'better' and 'worse' in people. This is judging people on their external, and forgetting that we are all the same living creatures.

e.g. "one seems better at piano because they have the labels, 'teacher', 'composer' and 'touring performer'.. and even 'Able to play chopin nocturne'.. "

If we are these things.. why do we then need to attach the label and live through it?

"what do you do"
seems to be similar to asking:
"what label can I attach to you"

"I'm a musician, composer and teacher"
seems to be just like saying:
"this is how valuable I am."
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#1475874 - 07/16/10 11:55 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: LimeFriday]
hippymusicman Offline
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Originally Posted By: LimeFriday
'Another' idea is that what you call labels are in fact words used to place conversation in context. Some people may use some words as labels to judge others - but many people use words not to judge others but to describe them in ways that convey meaning and provide context.


Of course labels create context in conversation.
That woman is 'beautiful'... we each have an understanding of what beautiful means so this makes sense.
But to classify her as that beautiful girl and create an identity from 'beautiful' is shallow. This is just how her body/face looks.

Thinking: "I really like her because she's beautiful" is the same as thinking: "I really like her because she has shiny shoes..." !?

Labels attached to people are external and irrelevant.. and don't explain anything about the person beyond an external, shallow level.
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#1475936 - 07/17/10 03:04 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
LimeFriday Offline
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Saying someone is beautiful is not saying anything else but that. It's not saying "I like that person because they are beautiful" or "OMG - that person is so much better than XX because they are rich"

It's a description - no more - no less. But if someone in their own mind attaches judgements to those descriptions - then that's their issue... it's not an inherent quality of the descriptor. It says much more about the person doing the judging than it doesn't about the label itself.

Descriptions are neither shallow nor irrelevant. They *do* have meaning. They do not imply better or worse - or identity. Describing myself as someone who plays the piano doesn't give me an identity... it describes how I spend my time. If I say I am a teacher - it's not saying 'I am such a valuable person' - it's describing how I earn a living.

If someone then turns that description into a value judgement - that's says something about their own beliefs. But it doesn't change the fact that all I am saying is I play the piano... or that I can play Chopin... or I can play jazz... or whatever and I earn money by teaching music. It has meaning and it's relevant to my life.

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#1475952 - 07/17/10 04:00 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: LimeFriday]
hippymusicman Offline
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I agree.

While you may not do that.. I still believe a lot of us do judge people on their labels. Maybe even without knowing it consciously.

For example: If you saw a man sleeping on a park bench you might label them as 'homeless'.. But If they are treated any differently to a wealthy business man then I think you are indeed judging on the external and mentally labeling them.

But what happens if you ignore all external things like .. the clothes each wears, the location of each person, the amount of facial hair, their smell ... their career their hobbies... etc..

We are left with the inner being..
Each was exactly the same when they were born, and each will be exactly the same when they die. They are exactly the same beyond the labels that the human mind automatically applies to them.

Focusing on your thought patterns, (not thinking about them) makes this concept very clear. Or, has made this concept very clear for me.
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#1476285 - 07/17/10 08:58 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: hippymusicman


"I'm a musician, composer and teacher"
seems to be just like saying:
"this is how valuable I am."


I can label myself in all sorts of ways, but my value is outside of that. I do not attribute my self-worth to the things I do or the things I am. Why do you assume that is so?
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#1476295 - 07/17/10 09:47 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: Morodiene]
danshure Offline
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Hippy

Your actions now contradict what you say. (Your talk don't match your walk).

You can't talk about meditating and detachment but be so attached to responding and explaining everything to everyone. Would Buddha have responded to every single little disagreement? Would he feel the need to justify everything he said with an explanation?

I started out liking some of the things you had to say. Your philosophy and your outlook. And I believe you to be a good honest person searching for truth and part of this search involves seeking conversation and collaboration from others.

I basically agree with your philosophies and theories.

If you feel what you're saying has worth, say it and if people don't hear you or agree that's their issue!

Those that like what you say, you probably won't hear from, they'll read it, like it and move on.

Say what you have to say, keep it short, LET others disagree, or be confused or whatever. To let it go would be the true meditative person's thing to do. THAT'S how to be beyond ego.

There is no useful contribution to a forum to just continue responding and responding. To be "ego-less", at peace with oneself, separate with one's thoughts is to be self-less in action. To have mastery over self. To be an action person, not a reaction person.


Edited by danshure (07/17/10 11:25 PM)
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#1476424 - 07/18/10 06:48 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: danshure]
hippymusicman Offline
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Originally Posted By: danshure
Hippy

There is no useful contribution to a forum to just continue responding and responding. To be "ego-less", at peace with oneself, separate with one's thoughts is to be self-less in action. To have mastery over self. To be an action person, not a reaction person.


Yes. I do think about that... I am certainly not Buddha, You are probably right in that there is a small amount of ego hiding in a corner of me wanting me to be valued for my 'beliefs'. But I can usually be conscious of that.

I know what it means to not act through ego, but those beliefs haven't completely overtaken me yet. Or sometimes they overtake me, and sometimes they become just beliefs again.

My beliefs are still quite unstable. I know what they are, but I feel the only way to make them stronger, or more agreeable, is to share them and note how people poke holes at them.. this way I can also poke at my own beliefs.. draw conclusions... and make them stronger.

So while it's not useful for other people, I personally find it very useful. And so I always encourage people to discuss them.. And thank you all ...

Also, Understanding people means not fearing them, no matter how threatening they might be.


........ Yes, I find it amazingly ironic and hilarious that I'm responding to your post with my answer...

I'm laughing out loud.. grin
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#1486611 - 08/02/10 01:21 PM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: hippymusicman]
etcetra Offline
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The desire to create this post, the desire to teach o show others something.. that alone is ego.

Maybe it's good to reflect on why "YOU" wanted to make this post?

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#1487262 - 08/03/10 11:49 AM Re: Musical Genius - HOW TO BE ONE [Re: etcetra]
hippymusicman Offline
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"The desire to teach and show others something is ego" .. ?

I don't agree..

We all have the desire to teach our babies how to eat.

I have the desire to teach others... I'm not saying you have to digest anything I say. I like disagreement, that leads to discussion.

But I think I understand how you can feel that way..

Perhaps you feel I'm suggesting an idea is more right and more true than your own ideas. This isn't the case. I'm sharing ideas. If you don't agree, then please share the ideas that clash.

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm sharing ideas.
_________________________
... such a vital organ

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