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Hi everyone;
I'm quite excited to be starting out with JOI. I received my book last week and it is exactly what I've been looking for. Thanks, Dave!
I've been been working hard on lesson one and have a couple of questions:
1) Is the Hanon to be practiced with both hands together or just the right hand. I've been practicing hands together because that's what I'm used to doing (in classical).
2) In the discussion of singing the master solos, reference is made to looping the solos on a cassette. Given that cassettes have become virtually obsolete, I'm wondering what methods others have used to loop these solos.
Thanks for your time.
Tony Wells

Hi Tony,

1) Play them separately. If you have time, play them with your LH. If you don't have time, then only do the RH.

2) I use Transcribe! Cost me $60 or so, it's great for slowing down, transposing and looping.

HI Knotty;
Thanks for the tips--time is not a problem! Transcribe! looks great--I'm ordering it right away.

Knotty
Thanks for sharing your composition for Lesson 2. I've been getting good ideas from your compositions. Did you purposely set out trying to create the Blues feel ?
What jazz standard are the chords from the Lesson 2 jazz tune based on ?
It's really nice that you've been encouraging Simon and myself from remote parts of the world. It's really difficult to get GREAT jazz teaching here.

The video was kool for illustrating playing in 4s and the importance of melodic tunes. Thank you !

Tony
It's excellent and exciting that you will be exploring JOI with us.

Apple:
Lullaby of the leaves.

That's cool Knotty.
I looked up the words. They're really cute.

Knotty and Saiman
I've done a chord analysis of the Joy of C the jazz tune from Lesson 2 that I will compose over.
Would either of you mind glancing through it to check I'm on the right track ?
Thanks !

http://www.box.net/shared/kmt8sddo10

Apples,

that looks good.

I think I would see the g-7b5 / C7 / f-6 as a minor 251.
Then your last measures dm7b5 Db7 back to C-6 also a 251 with a tritone sub.

Then the Eb-7 to Ab7 is another 25 to the d-7b5, it's just a chromatic 25.

++

Knotty, that’s just brilliant. I’m nowhere near the stage of being able to see patterns as clearly as you. Is this what you mean ? I’ve interpreted your suggestions in blue (please refer to the link below)

http://www.box.net/shared/m1uv7k8zk8

Apples,

I hope you're not waiting on me to go ahead with this, I've been very busy with work and the band.

Looks like you're doing pretty well on analysis. No need to over analyse. Some keys to get started are :
- Listen to the original melody. If you can, play it with the LH at the same time. This usually helps me hear why a particular chord works over a particular melody. That's like REALLY listening and paying attention.
- Play the arpeggio over each chord. This will also get your ear ready.
- Play some scales. This can be a bit more tricky, because you need to choose a scale. As a rule, see if the scale works with the melody

Hi Knotty
Thanks for getting back to me and for your further suggestions.

I’ve already started work on composing Theme A.

Maybe I went over the top in analysis as an over-reaction to your earlier suggestion of using chord tones on main beats and to end phrases.

At the other end of the spectrum, I guess you could say that the whole tune is essentially C minor.

How is Knotty in Nature going ?

Hey Knots
I've just read your great post on the Adult Beginners Forum.
It sounds like awesome ear training. When I sing along to the Louis Armstrong Hot 5 or Hot 7 for JOI, it always amazes me how each band member has the skill to listen so intuitively to what the others are playing.

Hi everyone
This is my second composition. It's called Longing for the Leaves.
I use Dave Frank’s chord voicings but my own rhythm. I’m always keen to improve so your comments and criticism are welcome as usual.
The score will follow tomorrow. I don’t have a scanner and will need to go to a friend’s place.

http://www.box.net/shared/zrzl8x4x1b

I've now uploaded the score for Longing for the Leaves.

http://www.box.net/shared/p7rxqbau6p

Hey C_A,

I found this one much better than the previous. You have nice lines of varying lengths. That's good. The A section in particular in neat.
The brigde is a little more choppy. In general, you want to try to give shapes to your lines that are more like mountains rather than zigzag. Though sometimes it's ok, especially if you repeat a pattern. But in general, for the melody, keep one direction for -say- a measure, then switch direction again.

Again, I thought this one was much better than the first. Do you feel like you are internalizing these changes a little bit more?

Ok, so here's the 3rd one I did then:

http://jazzitup-knot.blogspot.com/2009/05/bad-apple.html

Hi Knotty
Your comments are very much appreciated.
Are there certain rules that you bear in mind when you compose bridges ?
I know that your tunes have a nice shape. How do you keep the direction without being linear ? (I remember reading in the Adults Beginners Forum that Jazzwee told someone not to use too many consecutive/linear notes).

Thank you for your Bad Apple composition. I like your melody, it’s easy to sing along to, and I think your title is very funny. Did you find that you had less rhythmic options in a ¾ time signature ?

Re internalizing, I was pleasantly surprised at how naturally Section A and the last half of Section B came to me. However I reworked the first half of Section B about 25 times before I thought the melody was acceptable. It’s because it was in Ab7 which to my ears sounds like a very happy key, in all its modes. But I didn’t want to make it sound too happy because I thought it should sound a bit chilled like a lullaby. Do you consciously try to make phrases sound sad or happy ?

Thanks again Knotty.

You know, it was a long time ago when I composed that, and I don't particularly remember the process. I remember struggling on Just Friends, but not particularly this one.

About linear:
At this point, I would not try to overthink too much. Just create nice melodies. Some guidelines will be to use a good amount of arpeggios Vs scales or chromatism.
So with a couple arpeggios in a row, you can easily run up 2 octaves, which is a nice big spread. Then come right down with chromatism. Beeing a be-bop fan myself, something like
F A C E G Gb F E Eb
on a Fmaj7 to Fm7
appeals to me. I just love those lines, so I try to shoot for stuff like that. This really lays out the harmony, which makes it easy for people to listen, yet, it has a lot of interest.
Obviously, Bird, Sonny Stitt, Coltrane, Bud or Barry Harris are monster of this style, and I love them all.

I have stopped these composition (I think I went to 30 or so) and I'm now doing mostly improv, but the way I tackled them was to record constantly short phrases. Then when sometimes I heard something I liked, I would rewind and listen. Too often, I would hear something great, then lose it. Recording the process helped a lot. Whatever works for you.
I used chords and scales as guidelines, but mostly, what I heard. Sometimes it came out odd, not really authentic, but that's part of the fun. I would start by playing the chords several times before singing a melody.
Sometimes I would go back to a recording of someone to dig for ideas.

At first, it took me easily 10 hours. Towards the end, it was closer to a couple.

Before you konw it, when you're done with 20 compositions, you'll find it much easier to improvise on random tunes.

Take care++

Hi Knotty
Thanks for your helpful and practical suggestions.
I like the sound of the chromaticism in your compositions (have you sent any to your famous uncle ?!) I just tried your bebop example and it sounded really cool. So if the chord is a major sounding chord, is it generally okay to use the minor scale over it ?
Re recording snippets, did you play by ear on the piano the phrases that you learnt from trumpeters, sax players, clarinetists etc ?

Cheers
cus

>> So if the chord is a major sounding chord, is it generally okay to use the minor scale over it ?

I'm not so sure what you mean. The thing with chromaticism is that just about anything works. There are some fairly easy way to do it, for example, just playing a 1/2 step above or below, and landing on a chord tone on a strong beat. That works really good. In general, you can do anything you want, but when you can go smoothly from arpeggio to scale to chromatic and yet maintain the harmony, it sounds pretty good.

I realize my example above is hard to follow, plus it's just something I came up with yesterday, nothing amazing. Yet ... Start on beat 1 with just 8th notes. You are outlying a Fmaj7, then going down chromatically to the 7th of F-7 on beat 1. That's an example of a line that works really nice to me. I used that on Solar yesterday.

Experiment with stuff, that's the point of the compositions. I wouldn't try to think too much.

>> Re recording snippets, did you play by ear on the piano the phrases that you learnt from trumpeters, sax players, clarinetists etc ?
If I'm stuck, I might go to a recording and see what so and so did. That will give me a good idea of what to use. I remember getting stuck on Just friends. Fortunately, I have some great recordings, in particular Benny Carter with Oscar Peterson. It's a fairly simple tune, but with a couple of sharp turns. It's a lot of fun.
Also on Yardbird suite, I was a bit stuck, I ended up borrowing one of Bird's riff from a different tune. Be-bop tunes are actually easier in a sense because the harmony is so complex that you don't really need to come up with anything special with the melody, it almost always sounds good. Take All the things you are, you can just play 1/4 notes all days using nothing but chord tones and still sound good. The same thing on So What won't get you far.

Hope you're having fun.

++

You’ve answered my question really well, thank you Knotty. By major sounding, I meant maj 7 or dominant 7. As you said, chromaticism works well for just about anything.

You have to put in the effort but JOI is worth it. I’m not into shortcuts. I’m encouraged because I know you’re about to finish the course, knowing that someone else is persevering and now is reaping the benefits of the hard work. Didn’t some famous jazzer come up with “Discipline is the price of freedom “ ?

You're right, I'm about finished with the course. Over a year and a half already. That's interesting. But I can tell you Dave still has plenty in store for me.