I feel a bit out of the loop posting in a thread that seems to have been going for years. For a newcomer to jazzpiano I guesss its fine just to start work at the beginning with Autumn Leaves?

I printed out the lead sheet for AL and noticed that not all the LH 'shells' (A7 Dm7 G7) were explained. Was there a reason for this?

Hi there,

welcome to the thread.
I'm not sure what you mean by "not al the LH shells were explained".

Hi swc2004, did you mean just Root/7 LH voicing?

Am7 = A G
Dm7 = D C
G7 = G F

There's no "wrong" moment to talk about learning AL in this thread since that's what it's for. Consider the rest of the discussion (years of it) as merely conversation while waiting for you and others to pipe and and show they are participating

There are many of you reading this thread because of the constant downloads of the MP3 files and PDF's.

So a very big WELCOME to you and to the other lurkers. And ask away.

jazzwee, thanks for your invite to join in.

I am referring to a lead sheet that Serge88 has produced. It has one additional chord A7 - maybe this is an error on the lead sheet?

There is an Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 on the original, if that's what you mean.

So many of you are downloading from this thread. Not a day passes without some new download.

I'm really surprised at the life of this. Please feel free to continue to ask questions about beginning jazz. I just want you to feel welcome and not feel like this thread is finished.

Hi jazzwee - still jazzing? I'm still here, found another way to feed my habit for now. Been doing the AL leaves chords on guitar, though, that was a bit of a challenge to work out.

Hey TLT. I'm just realizing now that as my skills improve, I'm starting to like what I sound like. And it increases the fun level!

Don't give up on piano. There's a structure to learning all this although it all takes time.

BTW - Although this thread has been quiet, I can't believe the downloading action. This thread was hidden way back and my email inbox is clogged with notices of daily downloads. So there's a lot of interested parties out there.

Not given up at all!

OK I'll put up a challenge here (TLT you can check yourself too!) to those who think they know already what's on this thread. I consider this the basics.

Can you play ii-V-I shell voicings in all 12 keys?

Can you play ii-V-I two handed voicings in all 12 keys?

Can you play ii-V-I rootless voicings in all 12 keys?

(All this discussed in lessons above somewhere).

A lot of jazz books/materials focus on rootless voicings but miss the important 2 handed voicings (referred here in this thread as 2+3 voicings). Without complete knowledge of all this you have no tools. This is the most basic of all things jazz.

Maybe I'll just post an occasional challenge every once in awhile.

sure, at what tempo? :P

Not the tempo but how instantly one can do it without preparation. We're talking about millisecond response time here

Can I do it in milliseconds? I'd say most, but not all keys. And it took a long time.

To a learning jazzer, it means instantly identifying all the chord tones and extensions across multiple registers.

I found that once this skill was built up, than soloing became easier too since most of the notes for a solo come from the same chord tones.

Giant steps is now a breeze to play because of it (though not at 300bpm...)

Hey guys,

here's a recording of our practice session yesterday. We wanted to have something to listen back to. I put up some mics quick and dirty but the quality is actually decent.

http://www.box.net/shared/595jr5emye

The sounds awesome Knotty Your time and swing was excellent and your note choices were very melodic. Nice tone too. You have really improved greatly. This is probably helping quite a bit.

Now the guitar player was a little weak especially time wise and the noodling.

That was great Knotty, thanks for sharing!

As for your challenge, jazzwee, I can manage the first fine. The second requires a little revision for me...

TLT, I was reviewing two handed voicings yesterday, trying to come up with a practice strategy and I think I can write something up to help. Thinking about it helped me too as sometimes it doesn't come automatically to me either.

Two handed voicings are very important. In my mind, more critical than rootless voicings, because it incorporates shell voicings in it.

Anyway, I'll post something in this regard in the next couple of days. The original explanation noted as a lesson in this thread is a definition of the voicing but I wouldn't call it a practice strategy.

Two Handed Voicings - Practice Strategy - Part 1

Two handed voicings are very important in Jazz playing and is difficult to acquire as an automatic skill. If someone has to present a voicing to you and you have to think of each note that makes up the voicing, it takes too much time to do.

Now fortunately, two handed voicings follow a certain hand shape. If you practice this regularly, the hand shape will become automatic and you will be able to do more sophisticated voicings more quickly.

What I will describe here is the foundation shape, and then we will build on it and train the hands the find this shape consistently. We will practice this exercise in all 12 keys and you must clearly memorize the relationships between the hands.

Fifth Interval Shape

The initial hand shape we will be practicing is the shape of a fifth.

Now first try doing fifth intervals chromatically in both hands starting at C. You should notice that except for Bb and B, if the first note is a white note, the 5th is also a white note. If the first note is a black note, then the 5th is also a black note. On Bb and B only these are opposites.

Creating a Maj 7 Chord with Two Fifth Intervals

Before you proceed, you should already be able to create a fifth interval in both hands without looking. If you can do this now, here's what you're going to do.

LH - Start the fifth interval on C (root).
RH - Start the fifth interval on E (3rd) an octave higher
This is a C Maj 7 Chord and you are playing 1 5 3 7 of the chord.

Now move up each hand chromatically while retaining the 5th shape (one half step at a time with both hands) so you do this for all 12 keys. Memorize the position of the 3rd for each chord. This should be automatic.


Creating a Min 7 Chord with Two Fifth Intervals

Next we're going to add the playing of a Min 7 Chord.

LH - Start the fifth interval on C (root).
RH - Start the fifth interval on Eb (b3) an octave higher
This is a C Min 7 Chord and you are playing 1 5 b3 b7 of the chord.

Now move up chromatically while retaining the fifth shape (one half step at a time with both hands) so you do this for Db, D, Eb, E, etc.

Combine Maj 7 and Min 7 Chord

Now let's see if we understand this shape correctly. Put your first 5th interval on C for the LH, and E for the RH.

Move the RH interval back and forth between Eb and E. You are now shifting between a Min7 and a Maj7.

Do the Same Exercise in Circle of Fifths

Now instead of practicing chromatically, mix up the sequence so it follows the Circle of Fifths.


RH - Leave the Pinky Free

In the RH, be prepared to play the 5th interval with thumb and forefinger. In playing heads of tunes, the pinky often plays the melody so the chord has to played with fingers 1/2 on the RH.


Key to Remembering this

The key to this exercise is that it doesn't rely on you to have to think of every note in the chord. All you have to keep an eye on is the ROOT and the 3rd of the chord. The fifth interval takes care of everything else.

Don't let it skip your notice that the LH always plays the same thing regardless of the chord quality of the RH. So most of the brainpower is really on where the RH goes.

For later reference, we will call this a 2 + 2 voicing. Two notes in each hand.

Remember that your goal is to be able to play this without thinking (much).

We will be adding more notes to this shape as we go. The end result should be that we are playing 6 notes consistently with the two hands and you should be able to play any head in any leadsheet using the two hands.

Well, the first I can do. The last I will never be able to do. In the middle there's probably a little work for me.

Actually rootless voicings are just subsets of the two handed voicings. I memorized rootless voicings more easily because they're fixed shapes and LH only. The two handed voicings get tricky because of the melody. But I'll get into that later. So to me the most difficult one to make automatic is two handed voicings.

Playing becomes very natural when you can do two handed voicings. The sound becomes more natural and full because you're using more registers. It's the most important option in solo piano.

Two Handed Voicings - Practice Strategy - Part 1 - Continued

Just to finish off the first part of the basic shapes, I will now introduce the playing of dominant 7th chords.

The shape changes a little. Instead of a 5th in the LH and a 5th in the RH, it is a 5th in the LH and a Tritone interval in the RH.

So to get a feel of this, play a Maj 7 chord two handed

LH on C with a 5th interval
RH on E with a 5th interval

Now move the uppermost note down a half step so it is

LH on C with a 5th interval
RH on E with a b5 interval (E to Bb).

This is now C7.

So the only difference between a Maj 7 chord and a Dominant 7 chord is that you move the top note down a half step.


Summary

To summarize, I have shown here that to play two handed chords in its most basic form, you're dealing with mostly the shape of a 5th on the LH and RH, with the exception of a Dominant Chord where you are using a flatted 5th interval (Tritone).

Again it's important to think of the shapes here because the idea is to be able to do this automatically with less brain power. So focus your brain on finding the 3rd of the chord and getting the shape firm in your hands.

Two Handed Voicings - Practice Strategy - Part 2

From here we move on the extending the sound. So far, the chords played are shown without any extensions, i.e. we are playing only 1,5,3,7 of the chord.

To expand the sound further, we will need to build on the starting shape of 5ths.

LH

On the LH we will now add the 9th so you will play 1-5-9.

So instead of practicing a 5th shape, you will now need to extend your thumb so you are including the 9th all the time.

Practice this LH shape in all keys. The 9th is not the same key color in Eb, E, Bb and B as the root. So that's the most difficult part of this.

RH

On the RH, practice by repeating the 3rd at the top with the pinky.

So it is now 3-7-3 of the chord. Thus the thumb and the pinky are playing an octave.

(which is the same shape as 1 5 1)


A Note for Actual Use

Although this is a practice strategy, note that the LH could use the fixed 1-5-9 all the time. Whereas the RH will typically play the top note as a melody note. It is often the 3rd so thus the reason for this exercise. It strengthens that finger. But more important here is fingers 1 and 2 playing the 5th inverval on the RH.

Again, let me note that this is a practice plan. There will be exceptions and you will have more flexibility in actual playing with these extended notes, though the 5th interval shapes will often remain.

One thing to note here is that when playing 1-5-9 on the LH, the two thumbs are very close. One step away on major chords and a half step away on minor chords. This itself is part of the shape practice. It's a nice guide.

Good stuff, Jazzwee.

To possibly confuse things more, in the left hand, you can also try using a two note dominant or Maj seventh pattern, provided you are not too low or high in the register and depending on the chord you want to emphasize. It adds a different dimension when splitting a chord as you suggest. It is as well, good practice.

Inverting 3ds into 6ths also gives a flavor at times somewhat similar to 10ths when placed correctly on the piano's register. Those fit most people's hands easier than 10ths as well

Glen

Hey Jazzwee,

That's some good stuff. Good logic around it. Now make it into a workable practice routine and you're ready to publish your new book.
Joking aside, I find that often, it's the "how" to work on specifics that is difficult rather than what to work on. It's a case by case kind of thing, but it's also why I've enjoyed working with my teacher so much, because the path is clear.

Excellent Glen!

Talk about that some more. I just want to be clear on what you're saying with the dominants. You don't seem to be talking about a shell voicing here.

And on the inverted third, you're actually talking about the 13th on the bottom right? So 6-1 voicing a 3rd apart or a tenth apart? But this will have to be higher in the register if it's only a 3rd apart.

I don't know exactly what a shell voicing is...oops, except that the chord is an intended one, with certain notes left out, correct? I guess, then, perhaps my example below is a shell voicing - it's just that I don't have the vocabulary....ouch! That's perhaps why I don't post very often here - I am out of my league and working on other things. (the old time-constraint thing ) There is much to learn. Help!!

As for the 6th as an inverted 3d...for example, just take a simple three note C-E-G chord. Play the E, then the C above it for a 6th, leaving the G out and the root C below it out.

Knotty, your comment makes good sense to me.

Glen

OK the E at the bottom is almost like a rootless voicing except you include the root and it's rooted.

Rootless voicings incorporate 3rd and 7th, typically adding 9th, and 6th or 5th. So it's a clustered voicing.

Tell me then what you're talking about in the Dominant 2 notes.

A shell voicing (from Bud Powell) is just root + 7th.

This was the problem. Noting a two handed voicing is one thing. Here I'm emphasizing a shape approach. Often I'll forget but I'll remember the shape. Then it's almost like you're just confirming where your hands go.

Most jazz teaching is focused on rootless voicings and never really achieve a pianistic sound (multi-register).

So I hope I'm not being repetitive with something discussed before as I never really talked about shapes before.

Thanks for clarifying what I was trying to state, Jazzwee. The vocab escapes me...I suppose I do some of that stuff, but just not really cognizant of it as it happens.

As for a root, plus seventh in the left hand (two notes) the choices are root, then a Maj 7th, or dominant 7th, or diminished 7th. Lowering one half-step from the octave each time. Once again...not sure of the correct nomenclature, but depending upon from what chord you are leaving or to which one you are going, you choose the root + x7th that works. So that is what you are saying about Bud Powell and shell voicing...root + 7th. I thought perhaps shell voicing did not include the root at the bottom note.

Excellent! Again - thanks.

Glen

Yes Glen, I think we're clear now. A shell voicing includes the root.

A rootless voicing typically starts on the 3rd or the 7th (depending on the chord and register). Your idea of 3rd + root is a nice concept because it's an open sound that can be played in any register. It's still rooted. It would have a different effect and I'll try it later. I'm glad I'm learning something new too as I do this.

Kind of an advanced thing I have never discussed here, but I play dominants using altered roots (like b9 or #11). Another discussion I'm sure. Best probably is just to play it and then people just hear something different.

BTW - the best tune to practice the two handed voicings I'm talking about is "All the Things You Are". Most of the melody is a 3rd so the RH voicing works most of the time.

Also sometimes you have to overlap hands and that's fine (use a lower register for the RH or higher register for the LH).

In real use, due to the melody, my thumb and forefingers of both hands start to mix it up and create an number of alternate inner voicings. I'm thinking of a practice strategy for this later on. However, whatever that practice strategy might be, it's still anchored in these fifth interval shapes. They even work with diminished chords.

The exceptions are with dominants and half diminished chords.