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#1468454 - 07/05/10 03:08 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: jdhampton924]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8934
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: jdhampton924

There is no fun in assuming ironic!

Sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't. This board can be nasty, but don't assume the BIG BOYS always have the answer.

I laugh at them sometimes, as they do with me! laugh
_________________________
Jason

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#1468470 - 07/05/10 04:34 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: argerichfan]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Is there anybody out there who can do justice to the playing of the 3rd movement of the Rachmaninoff 36-2 sonata?

Here’s what the opening page (IMSLP with thanks) looks like ...
the L’istesso tempo is very moody in setting up the scary Allegro molto ... wonder what Rach was smoking.

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#1468551 - 07/05/10 10:29 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
jdhampton924 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 1009
Loc: Evansville, Indiana
Are you refering to anyone on the forums that can play it? or just recordings in general?

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#1468560 - 07/05/10 10:53 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13818
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: btb
Is there anybody out there who can do justice to the playing of the 3rd movement of the Rachmaninoff 36-2 sonata?


I'm pretty sure Angelina can pull it off, and very well. We probably have a dozen or so members who could manage it without too much trouble.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1468566 - 07/05/10 11:07 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Kreisler]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
"Is there anybody out there who can do justice to the playing of the 3rd movement of the Rachmaninoff 36-2 sonata?"

IMHO you are pulling the wool Kreisler ... and need to be a little more than "pretty sure" about these members "who could manage it without too much trouble?"

Put your hands up all those chaps who can play this movement.

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#1468667 - 07/05/10 02:49 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
There's no need to be "pretty sure" about Angelina pulling it off, because she CAN play it (and very well I might add).
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1468671 - 07/05/10 02:59 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: stores]
bplary1300 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 353
Loc: Maine
I love this sonata, but prefer the unrevised version if it. My favorite interpretation is Ashkenazy's on his disc of the preludes.
_________________________


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#1468882 - 07/05/10 08:45 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: bplary1300]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4535
Loc: in the past
No my recording from my recital was absolutely awful and terrible. I've changed many things, it's faster now, cleaner (finally it only took an entire year) and I don't use the pedal to cover my a.. Hahaha

I'd say the original rach is much much scarier!
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1469017 - 07/06/10 03:20 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Well, there you are stores,

By her own admission Angelina made a total havoc ("absolutely awful and terrible") of the Rach sonata ... and took a year making the distance ... but bravo for getting back on the mustang.

Here’s a MIDI of the opening 40 measures of movement 3 to show the vast spread of this sub-par Rach sonata ... thank goodness he bucked up to give us his PC2.

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#1469031 - 07/06/10 04:11 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
And she's notoriously hard on herself. It's not nearly as bad as she makes it out to be.
Your graphs don't really tell me anything at all (I suppose with the right piece we could make nice wallpaper out of them though). I'm curious as to what spurs you to label the sonata "sub par"... it's not, but then, to each their own, I suppose.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1469060 - 07/06/10 05:54 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: stores]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Hi stores,

You gallantly (Arthurian stock perhaps) in coming to the defence of "hard on herself" Angelina ... and boldly state that the Rach sonata is worthy ... but, if the jolly old composition had any real merit, we’d all add it to our repertoire of Beethoven sonatas and Chopin Nocturnes.

One of the genius qualities of the Masters is the uncompromising drive to polish to perfection ... where the final hard-won score is reduced to it’s Spartan poetic essence ... and that means a tight-knit cohesive structure (no woolly concept or notes).

Thanks for the wallpaper suggestion ... the MIDI graph is merely an accurate map of note pitch (up) and duration (across) ... Rach vainly attempts to stretch the keyboard to it’s limits ... just look at the Bb at m24 (the bottom note on my piano) which starts those repeated jumped arpeggios ... on which he parades a predictable chordal cascade ... while the wafty ascent at m28-31 lacks boldness ... before getting off my hobby-horse ... must just mention the clumsy sequence of chords at m36-38 (never to be used again by Rach).

Anytime you want to analyse Rach’s mastery of PC2 ... let’s open a new thread.



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#1469065 - 07/06/10 06:01 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
FunkyLlama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 359
Originally Posted By: btb
but, if the jolly old composition had any real merit, we’d all add it to our repertoire of Beethoven sonatas and Chopin Nocturnes.
Inferring anything about a piece's quality from its popularity is a bad idea. Case in point: the mass neglect of Bach's ouvre after his death.

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#1469071 - 07/06/10 06:15 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: FunkyLlama]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Right on FunkyLlama,

Thank goodness for Mendelssohn raising the Phoenix from the ashes.

You can't keep a good man down ... as the old saying goes.

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#1469151 - 07/06/10 09:53 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: stores]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4535
Loc: in the past
btb - not a year FROM the recital, that was only 2-3 months apart, but a year after I started learning the sonata.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1469154 - 07/06/10 09:55 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4535
Loc: in the past
Excuse me, but "but, if the jolly old composition had any real merit, we’d all add it to our repertoire of Beethoven sonatas and Chopin Nocturnes."

??????????????

Am I missing something? Who are "we"? Plenty, PLENTY of people play this sonata. Do you think you are in some ways special, and just because you refuse to play it (out of fear probably?) it makes it less worthy? That's kind of funny...
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1469157 - 07/06/10 09:58 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
...Beethoven's hammerklavier has a lot of merit, but few people have it in their repertoire...and people don't play Rachmaninoff's second sonata for a similar reason as well.
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#1469171 - 07/06/10 10:33 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13818
Loc: Iowa City, IA
I agree with Angelina, the piece is extremely popular. I've heard it performed live about as often as the other major romantic sonatas. (And more often than the Brahms sonatas and Wanderer Fantasy.)

I also don't really know what "thank goodness he bucked up to give us his PC2" means. I thought the 2nd sonata was written after the 2nd concerto. (I'm going by opus numbers, I don't really know the history of the sketches.)
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1469181 - 07/06/10 10:50 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19642
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
Excuse me, but "but, if the jolly old composition had any real merit, we’d all add it to our repertoire of Beethoven sonatas and Chopin Nocturnes."

??????????????

Am I missing something? Who are "we"? Plenty, PLENTY of people play this sonata. Do you think you are in some ways special, and just because you refuse to play it (out of fear probably?) it makes it less worthy? That's kind of funny...
I'd agree, based on attending competitions, recitals and watching competitions on Youtube. This piece is one of the most popular at competitions.

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#1469211 - 07/06/10 12:05 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: pianoloverus]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Well,well ... OP dolce sfogato has got his money’s worth out of this thread ... and to think that he gave us
the clue to the quality of 36-2 when he opened with:

“and let's stop putting his 3rd attempt to write a decent sonata at the top of the list,he managed a good one, the op. 19, an ok one, the op. 28

and a disastrous one, yes the op.36, and he knew it.”

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#1469215 - 07/06/10 12:08 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
...that's one person's opinion. Which is hardly a fact.
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#1469241 - 07/06/10 12:41 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Kuanpiano]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
From all accounts Dolce sfogato is a highly competent pianist (if not professional) ...
and prefers the first two Rachmaninoff sonatas (op, 19 and op. 28) to the third op. 36.

Some of us (who can’t play the sonatas) like to be guided by his judgment.

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#1469245 - 07/06/10 12:44 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
You don't have to be able to play a sonata to judge it's merit.

Who here has played Rach 3, Prokofiev 2, Brahms 2, Beethoven's op.106/111? We've all heard them, studied the scores, loved them, but we can't play them. We can do the same to op.36 as well.
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

Top
#1469246 - 07/06/10 12:44 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4535
Loc: in the past
Why? Don't you have a brain for yourself to decide?

And since when has rachmaninoff ever liked a composition of his? He was incredibly insecure.

Horowitz played the second, not the first. At least not to my knowledge. How would you explain that?
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1469291 - 07/06/10 02:02 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8934
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich

Horowitz played the second, not the first. At least not to my knowledge. How would you explain that?

I would be very surprised if Horowitz hadn't learned and played the 1st sonata privately. Why he never played it publicly (at least in later years), is anyone's guess. (And why the heck didn't he play any of the concertos besides the 3rd?) Sadly, it's our loss- Horowitz could have been the ultimate interpreter.
_________________________
Jason

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#1469462 - 07/06/10 07:22 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: btb
Hi stores,

You gallantly (Arthurian stock perhaps) in coming to the defence of "hard on herself" Angelina ... and boldly state that the Rach sonata is worthy ... but, if the jolly old composition had any real merit, we’d all add it to our repertoire of Beethoven sonatas and Chopin Nocturnes.

One of the genius qualities of the Masters is the uncompromising drive to polish to perfection ... where the final hard-won score is reduced to it’s Spartan poetic essence ... and that means a tight-knit cohesive structure (no woolly concept or notes).

Thanks for the wallpaper suggestion ... the MIDI graph is merely an accurate map of note pitch (up) and duration (across) ... Rach vainly attempts to stretch the keyboard to it’s limits ... just look at the Bb at m24 (the bottom note on my piano) which starts those repeated jumped arpeggios ... on which he parades a predictable chordal cascade ... while the wafty ascent at m28-31 lacks boldness ... before getting off my hobby-horse ... must just mention the clumsy sequence of chords at m36-38 (never to be used again by Rach).

Anytime you want to analyse Rach’s mastery of PC2 ... let’s open a new thread.




No gallant defense here as Angelina stands up for herself very well. I do defend, however, the sonata's merit. It's a work of great quality and fits quite nicely with any repertoire including your LVB sonatas/Chopin nocturnes. I'd be willing to bet that most repertoires sans the sonata appear so due to limited ability more than anything, but surely not quality in regard to the work itself.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1469464 - 07/06/10 07:28 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: argerichfan]
jdhampton924 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 1009
Loc: Evansville, Indiana
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich

Horowitz played the second, not the first. At least not to my knowledge. How would you explain that?

I would be very surprised if Horowitz hadn't learned and played the 1st sonata privately. Why he never played it publicly (at least in later years), is anyone's guess. (And why the heck didn't he play any of the concertos besides the 3rd?) Sadly, it's our loss- Horowitz could have been the ultimate interpreter.


Overall though, Horowitz did not seem to perform many concertos live it seems.

Ok that is more of a question...Did horowitz play that many concertos?

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#1469466 - 07/06/10 07:33 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: jdhampton924]
Thracozaag Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/06/04
Posts: 1980
Loc: Salt Lake City
In his rep (as far as I know):

Chopin 2
Brahms 1 and 2
Rach 1, 2, 3
Liszt 1 and 2
Mozart K. 488
Tchaikovsky 1
Beethoven 5

I would be willing to bet he also knew the Scriabin concerto and probably a couple of the Medtner's as well.
_________________________
"I'm a concert pianist--that's a pretentious way of saying I'm unemployed at the moment."--Oscar Levant

http://www.youtube.com/kojiattwood
https://www.giftedmusicschool.org/

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#1469654 - 07/07/10 02:51 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Thracozaag]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
For what it’s worth Angelina ... the MIDI format gives me the advantage of playing
any keyboard masterpiece prima vista ... including the 40 measures of the Rachmaninoff sonata op. 36 earlier shown ... by this graphic method Beethoven Opus 111 sonata ...
(which is beyond the reach of Kuanpiano) becomes a breeze, when transcribed.

My heart goes out to my respected Forum colleagues slogging at fevered practising ... when the MIDI format would change practising into instant playing .. like reading a favourite book.

With respect chaps ... what a bunch of dodos ... our schools provide the graphic format by which we all learn to snap fluctuations in the gold price ... and yet we persist with an antiquated (grotesquely distorted) music notation.

But then, you chaps can’t change ... once trapped into the abcdefg mind-set.


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#1469664 - 07/07/10 03:24 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
pleeeeease explain smile
Do you mean that you read an alternative notation (in MIDI format) which makes it much easier for you to play the piece when sitting at the piano?

You don't mean just pressing playback button after entering all the notes at your leisure do you?

I like your graphics btb but I never realised you read them!!

Edit: C'mon btb! I am so curious to see what the page actually looks like. Could you post the first page of op111 that you read? It can't imagine reading the graph above, but maybe if it was much bigger I could see it. Thanks smile


Edited by Canonie (07/07/10 03:35 AM)
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1469665 - 07/07/10 03:30 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6248
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: btb
For what it’s worth Angelina ... the MIDI format gives me the advantage of playing
any keyboard masterpiece prima vista ... including the 40 measures of the Rachmaninoff sonata op. 36 earlier shown ... by this graphic method Beethoven Opus 111 sonata ...
(which is beyond the reach of Kuanpiano) becomes a breeze, when transcribed.

My heart goes out to my respected Forum colleagues slogging at fevered practising ... when the MIDI format would change practising into instant playing .. like reading a favourite book.

With respect chaps ... what a bunch of dodos ... our schools provide the graphic format by which we all learn to snap fluctuations in the gold price ... and yet we persist with an antiquated (grotesquely distorted) music notation.

But then, you chaps can’t change ... once trapped into the abcdefg mind-set.



I'm at a loss as to what this post even means. You said you couldn't play the sonatas so you can't be suggesting that you can if you can see them in some faux-piano-roll style of a midi editor. Unless you just let a midi sequencer press the keys for you, how is Opus 111 a breeze to play? If that is the case, then I don't see the worth. What am I missing? Am I up too late?
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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