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#1468454 - 07/05/10 03:08 AM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: jdhampton924]
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8000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8250
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
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There is no fun in assuming ironic!
Sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't. This board can be nasty, but don't assume the BIG BOYS always have the answer. I laugh at them sometimes, as they do with me! 
_________________________
Jason
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#1468470 - 07/05/10 04:34 AM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: argerichfan]
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4000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4073
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
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Is there anybody out there who can do justice to the playing of the 3rd movement of the Rachmaninoff 36-2 sonata? Here’s what the opening page (IMSLP with thanks) looks like ... the L’istesso tempo is very moody in setting up the scary Allegro molto ... wonder what Rach was smoking. 
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#1468560 - 07/05/10 10:53 AM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: btb]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13117
Loc: Iowa City, IA
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Is there anybody out there who can do justice to the playing of the 3rd movement of the Rachmaninoff 36-2 sonata? I'm pretty sure Angelina can pull it off, and very well. We probably have a dozen or so members who could manage it without too much trouble.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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#1468667 - 07/05/10 02:49 PM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: btb]
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6159
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
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There's no need to be "pretty sure" about Angelina pulling it off, because she CAN play it (and very well I might add).
_________________________
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠ $
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#1468671 - 07/05/10 02:59 PM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: stores]
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Full Member
Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 338
Loc: Maine
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I love this sonata, but prefer the unrevised version if it. My favorite interpretation is Ashkenazy's on his disc of the preludes.
_________________________
Working on:
Bach- Toccata in E minor
Beethoven- Piano Sonata No.12 in A-flat Major Op.26
Brahms- Piano Sonata in F# Minor Op.2
Rzewski- North American Ballads
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#1468882 - 07/05/10 08:45 PM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: bplary1300]
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4000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4171
Loc: in the past
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No my recording from my recital was absolutely awful and terrible. I've changed many things, it's faster now, cleaner (finally it only took an entire year) and I don't use the pedal to cover my a.. Hahaha
I'd say the original rach is much much scarier!
_________________________
'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'
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#1469017 - 07/06/10 03:20 AM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: Pogorelich.]
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4000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4073
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
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Well, there you are stores, By her own admission Angelina made a total havoc ("absolutely awful and terrible") of the Rach sonata ... and took a year making the distance ... but bravo for getting back on the mustang. Here’s a MIDI of the opening 40 measures of movement 3 to show the vast spread of this sub-par Rach sonata ... thank goodness he bucked up to give us his PC2. 
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#1469031 - 07/06/10 04:11 AM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: btb]
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6159
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
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And she's notoriously hard on herself. It's not nearly as bad as she makes it out to be.
Your graphs don't really tell me anything at all (I suppose with the right piece we could make nice wallpaper out of them though). I'm curious as to what spurs you to label the sonata "sub par"... it's not, but then, to each their own, I suppose.
_________________________
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠ $
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#1469065 - 07/06/10 06:01 AM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: btb]
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Full Member
Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 359
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but, if the jolly old composition had any real merit, we’d all add it to our repertoire of Beethoven sonatas and Chopin Nocturnes. Inferring anything about a piece's quality from its popularity is a bad idea. Case in point: the mass neglect of Bach's ouvre after his death.
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#1469151 - 07/06/10 09:53 AM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: stores]
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4000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4171
Loc: in the past
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btb - not a year FROM the recital, that was only 2-3 months apart, but a year after I started learning the sonata.
_________________________
'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'
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#1469154 - 07/06/10 09:55 AM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: Pogorelich.]
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4000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4171
Loc: in the past
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Excuse me, but "but, if the jolly old composition had any real merit, we’d all add it to our repertoire of Beethoven sonatas and Chopin Nocturnes."
??????????????
Am I missing something? Who are "we"? Plenty, PLENTY of people play this sonata. Do you think you are in some ways special, and just because you refuse to play it (out of fear probably?) it makes it less worthy? That's kind of funny...
_________________________
'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'
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#1469157 - 07/06/10 09:58 AM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: Pogorelich.]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 1679
Loc: Canada
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...Beethoven's hammerklavier has a lot of merit, but few people have it in their repertoire...and people don't play Rachmaninoff's second sonata for a similar reason as well.
_________________________
Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata op.109
Chopin - Ballade no.3
Ravel - Gaspard de la Nuit
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#1469171 - 07/06/10 10:33 AM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: Pogorelich.]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13117
Loc: Iowa City, IA
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I agree with Angelina, the piece is extremely popular. I've heard it performed live about as often as the other major romantic sonatas. (And more often than the Brahms sonatas and Wanderer Fantasy.)
I also don't really know what "thank goodness he bucked up to give us his PC2" means. I thought the 2nd sonata was written after the 2nd concerto. (I'm going by opus numbers, I don't really know the history of the sketches.)
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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#1469181 - 07/06/10 10:50 AM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: Pogorelich.]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 17765
Loc: New York City
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Excuse me, but "but, if the jolly old composition had any real merit, we’d all add it to our repertoire of Beethoven sonatas and Chopin Nocturnes."
??????????????
Am I missing something? Who are "we"? Plenty, PLENTY of people play this sonata. Do you think you are in some ways special, and just because you refuse to play it (out of fear probably?) it makes it less worthy? That's kind of funny... I'd agree, based on attending competitions, recitals and watching competitions on Youtube. This piece is one of the most popular at competitions.
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#1469215 - 07/06/10 12:08 PM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: btb]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 1679
Loc: Canada
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...that's one person's opinion. Which is hardly a fact.
_________________________
Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata op.109
Chopin - Ballade no.3
Ravel - Gaspard de la Nuit
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#1469245 - 07/06/10 12:44 PM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: btb]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 1679
Loc: Canada
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You don't have to be able to play a sonata to judge it's merit.
Who here has played Rach 3, Prokofiev 2, Brahms 2, Beethoven's op.106/111? We've all heard them, studied the scores, loved them, but we can't play them. We can do the same to op.36 as well.
_________________________
Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata op.109
Chopin - Ballade no.3
Ravel - Gaspard de la Nuit
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#1469246 - 07/06/10 12:44 PM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: btb]
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4000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4171
Loc: in the past
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Why? Don't you have a brain for yourself to decide?
And since when has rachmaninoff ever liked a composition of his? He was incredibly insecure.
Horowitz played the second, not the first. At least not to my knowledge. How would you explain that?
_________________________
'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'
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#1469291 - 07/06/10 02:02 PM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: Pogorelich.]
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8000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8250
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
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Horowitz played the second, not the first. At least not to my knowledge. How would you explain that?
I would be very surprised if Horowitz hadn't learned and played the 1st sonata privately. Why he never played it publicly (at least in later years), is anyone's guess. (And why the heck didn't he play any of the concertos besides the 3rd?) Sadly, it's our loss- Horowitz could have been the ultimate interpreter.
_________________________
Jason
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#1469462 - 07/06/10 07:22 PM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: btb]
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6159
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
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Hi stores,
You gallantly (Arthurian stock perhaps) in coming to the defence of "hard on herself" Angelina ... and boldly state that the Rach sonata is worthy ... but, if the jolly old composition had any real merit, we’d all add it to our repertoire of Beethoven sonatas and Chopin Nocturnes.
One of the genius qualities of the Masters is the uncompromising drive to polish to perfection ... where the final hard-won score is reduced to it’s Spartan poetic essence ... and that means a tight-knit cohesive structure (no woolly concept or notes).
Thanks for the wallpaper suggestion ... the MIDI graph is merely an accurate map of note pitch (up) and duration (across) ... Rach vainly attempts to stretch the keyboard to it’s limits ... just look at the Bb at m24 (the bottom note on my piano) which starts those repeated jumped arpeggios ... on which he parades a predictable chordal cascade ... while the wafty ascent at m28-31 lacks boldness ... before getting off my hobby-horse ... must just mention the clumsy sequence of chords at m36-38 (never to be used again by Rach).
Anytime you want to analyse Rach’s mastery of PC2 ... let’s open a new thread.
No gallant defense here as Angelina stands up for herself very well. I do defend, however, the sonata's merit. It's a work of great quality and fits quite nicely with any repertoire including your LVB sonatas/Chopin nocturnes. I'd be willing to bet that most repertoires sans the sonata appear so due to limited ability more than anything, but surely not quality in regard to the work itself.
_________________________
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠ $
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#1469464 - 07/06/10 07:28 PM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: argerichfan]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 982
Loc: Evansville, Indiana
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Horowitz played the second, not the first. At least not to my knowledge. How would you explain that?
I would be very surprised if Horowitz hadn't learned and played the 1st sonata privately. Why he never played it publicly (at least in later years), is anyone's guess. (And why the heck didn't he play any of the concertos besides the 3rd?) Sadly, it's our loss- Horowitz could have been the ultimate interpreter. Overall though, Horowitz did not seem to perform many concertos live it seems. Ok that is more of a question...Did horowitz play that many concertos?
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#1469664 - 07/07/10 03:24 AM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: btb]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
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pleeeeease explain  Do you mean that you read an alternative notation (in MIDI format) which makes it much easier for you to play the piece when sitting at the piano? You don't mean just pressing playback button after entering all the notes at your leisure do you? I like your graphics btb but I never realised you read them!! Edit: C'mon btb! I am so curious to see what the page actually looks like. Could you post the first page of op111 that you read? It can't imagine reading the graph above, but maybe if it was much bigger I could see it. Thanks
Edited by Canonie (07/07/10 03:35 AM)
_________________________
 Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it. Alex Ross.
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#1469665 - 07/07/10 03:30 AM
Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata
[Re: btb]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5466
Loc: St. Louis area
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For what it’s worth Angelina ... the MIDI format gives me the advantage of playing
any keyboard masterpiece prima vista ... including the 40 measures of the Rachmaninoff sonata op. 36 earlier shown ... by this graphic method Beethoven Opus 111 sonata ...
(which is beyond the reach of Kuanpiano) becomes a breeze, when transcribed.
My heart goes out to my respected Forum colleagues slogging at fevered practising ... when the MIDI format would change practising into instant playing .. like reading a favourite book.
With respect chaps ... what a bunch of dodos ... our schools provide the graphic format by which we all learn to snap fluctuations in the gold price ... and yet we persist with an antiquated (grotesquely distorted) music notation.
But then, you chaps can’t change ... once trapped into the abcdefg mind-set.
I'm at a loss as to what this post even means. You said you couldn't play the sonatas so you can't be suggesting that you can if you can see them in some faux-piano-roll style of a midi editor. Unless you just let a midi sequencer press the keys for you, how is Opus 111 a breeze to play? If that is the case, then I don't see the worth. What am I missing? Am I up too late?
_________________________
Nothing primes the pump like the panic of impending performance.
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