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#1466635 - 07/01/10 07:18 PM Rach and his 2nd sonata
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2667
Loc: Netherlands
I can't bear to see/hear people use the abbreviation, he has a name, spell it, or don't, and let's stop putting his 3rd attempt to write a decent sonata at the top of the list, he managed a good one, the op. 19, an ok one, the op. 28 and a disastrous one, yes the op.36, and he knew it, why bother,play better music, it's not difficult to find it..
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couch de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Mussorgski tableaux d'une exposition/Ravel miroirs

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#1466645 - 07/01/10 07:30 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: dolce sfogato]
Thracozaag Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/06/04
Posts: 1980
Loc: Salt Lake City
Was that some sort of stream-of-consciousness haiku?
_________________________
"I'm a concert pianist--that's a pretentious way of saying I'm unemployed at the moment."--Oscar Levant

http://www.youtube.com/kojiattwood
https://www.giftedmusicschool.org/

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#1466647 - 07/01/10 07:35 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Thracozaag]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2667
Loc: Netherlands
probabely, but well-meant, I hate Rach instead of Rachmaninov, and I don't really appreciate his endeavours in his 36th opus, and I would like to see/hear people see wider horizons than this eternal competitionmonster that it has grown in to.
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couch de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Mussorgski tableaux d'une exposition/Ravel miroirs

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#1466658 - 07/01/10 08:05 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: dolce sfogato]
Thracozaag Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/06/04
Posts: 1980
Loc: Salt Lake City
I agree--gotten pretty sick of that piece in general.
_________________________
"I'm a concert pianist--that's a pretentious way of saying I'm unemployed at the moment."--Oscar Levant

http://www.youtube.com/kojiattwood
https://www.giftedmusicschool.org/

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#1466704 - 07/01/10 10:01 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Thracozaag]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4535
Loc: in the past
Oh get over it
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1466716 - 07/01/10 10:23 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18295
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
Oh get over it


I agree with the OP, and I won't "get over it," even though you hold that ugly pistol to my head. I think it shows a complete lack of respect and a falsely assumed familiarity. As for familiarity or endearment, the man has been dead a number of years, I don't see how one can claim familiarity with him.

Perhaps such references are just laziness which, in itself, is a cultural trend, I fear.

If your real (as opposed to a screen) name is Pogorelich, would you enjoy being referred to as "Pog"?

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1466725 - 07/01/10 10:49 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: BruceD]
Ridicolosamente Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 1469
Loc: Miami, Florida, USA
I'm guilty as charged for using "Rach" and "Prok" all the time. I don't know why I don't similarly do "Chop" and "Motz" har har har...

It's just a cultural trend, however "lame" or "unprofessional" or "tacky". In emails with my close friends, I regularly refer to other friends by just the first letter of their first name. My boyfriend Jacob is "J", my best friend Vicky is "V", etc. This is simply something my friends and I have done since our high school days, and I have 1) met too many others who do the same, 2) noticed that my habits rub off on new friends and colleagues.

When I moved from Belize to Florida, I introduced myself as Daniel, as that's my name, but everyone would automatically call me Danny. When I moved from Florida to Minnesota, I again introduced myself as Daniel, but many (including my university professors) automatically shortened my name to Dan. I never corrected anyone, because it honestly does not bother me in the slightest.

I never feel "disrespected" when someone does this. Certainly though, I still have a problem referring to my professors on a first name basis, although many strongly suggested that I drop the "Dr. [Last Name]" or "Professor [Last Name]" and just refer to them by their first names.

I certainly know when I need to be formal, courteous, and respectful, and I don't feel I do any disservice to his dignity by referring to Rachmaninoff by "Rach" on an Internet forum.

As for his 2nd piano sonata, well, can't we all start a similar thread with some piece that just irks us, because it's overly played compared to [this other work] which is far superior! Maybe I should start one on "Chop's" Op 27 No 2 Nocturne. If I hear it again I might take that "ugly pistol" Angelina's holding to Bruce's head, and shoot myself with it.

smile

-Daniel
_________________________
Currently working on:
-Dane Rudhyar's Stars from Pentagrams No 3

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#1466730 - 07/01/10 10:56 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: BruceD]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6084
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Originally Posted By: BruceD

If your real (as opposed to a screen) name is Pogorelich, would you enjoy being referred to as "Pog"?


Or "Pogo." laugh

Eh, people say Rach instead of Rachmaninoff because of the length of the name. On a similar note, I heard Read Gainsford play Rachmaninoff's second piano sonata, and it was wonderful!

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#1466731 - 07/01/10 10:58 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Orange Soda King]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18295
Loc: Victoria, BC
Didn't "Rach craze" all start with the movie "Shine," or was it used long before that?

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1466733 - 07/01/10 11:00 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: BruceD]
Ridicolosamente Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 1469
Loc: Miami, Florida, USA
I'm not sure, but I must concede that referring to the concertos as Rocky I through IV makes me cringe!

-Daniel
_________________________
Currently working on:
-Dane Rudhyar's Stars from Pentagrams No 3

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#1466740 - 07/01/10 11:23 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: BruceD]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2393
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Didn't "Rach craze" all start with the movie "Shine," or was it used long before that?


I think it started with the advent of the Internet. It's hard to imagine a world where we didn't have to deal with such inane abbreviations!

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#1466762 - 07/02/10 12:22 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: jeffreyjones]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13818
Loc: Iowa City, IA
I will believe, until the day I die, that Rachmaninoff's best work is found in Opp. 32 and 39.

His best work in larger forms are, by far, the 2nd concerto and cello sonata.

I find both sets of variations unnecessarily homogenous, the sonatas and 3rd concerto wallow a bit too much in a texture that seems fascinated with a hundred shades of grey, and the moments musicaux show promise, but lack some maturity. Op. 23 and Op. 33 do contain some wonderful music, but for me, I think every single piece in Op. 32 and Op. 39 is a revelation.

And just to annoy Stores, I'll even go so far as to say I'd rather listen to Tchaikovsky Op. 37 than either of the Rachmaninoff sonatas. wink
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1466766 - 07/02/10 12:31 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Kreisler]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8936
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Kreisler

His best work in larger forms are, by far, the 2nd concerto and cello sonata.

I agree (the 2nd concerto is a far more spontaneous work than the 3rd), but IMO you quite forgot the Paganini Rhapsody. You did, didn't you?

But the Tchaikovsky Op. 37? IMO (again) that strikes me as a very jaded opinion.
_________________________
Jason

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#1466773 - 07/02/10 12:41 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Orange Soda King]
PianoDude2010 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/27/10
Posts: 33
Loc: Rochester, NY
I don't know about all 'yall, but I refer to Rachmaninov by his real name:

Paxmaninhub! :-)

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#1466777 - 07/02/10 01:09 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Kreisler]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2393
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
I will believe, until the day I die, that Rachmaninoff's best work is found in Opp. 32 and 39.


Rachmaninoff's masterwork is the Vespers, Op. 37. If you don't believe me, then it's probably because you haven't heard it live. It is astonishing.

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#1466874 - 07/02/10 07:24 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: jeffreyjones]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Didn't "Rach craze" all start with the movie "Shine," or was it used long before that?


I think it started with the advent of the Internet. It's hard to imagine a world where we didn't have to deal with such inane abbreviations!
People called the Rachmaninov 3rd PC the Rach 3 at least as far back as the 1960's, maybe because Rock music was popular then. I think some people use abbreviations to imply some great familiarity with a piece or composer. Just the way some refer to Horowitz as Volodya.


Edited by pianoloverus (07/02/10 07:28 AM)

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#1466896 - 07/02/10 08:31 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: BruceD]
FunkyLlama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 359
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
Oh get over it


I agree with the OP, and I won't "get over it," even though you hold that ugly pistol to my head. I think it shows a complete lack of respect and a falsely assumed familiarity. As for familiarity or endearment, the man has been dead a number of years, I don't see how one can claim familiarity with him.

Perhaps such references are just laziness which, in itself, is a cultural trend, I fear.

If your real (as opposed to a screen) name is Pogorelich, would you enjoy being referred to as "Pog"?

Regards,
For Christ's sake. Doesn't the fact that Rachmaninoff is her favourite composer and she herself refers to him as 'Rach' make it blindingly clear to you that actually it doesn't imply a lack of respect? Oh, and newsflash - yes, people will frequently assume their abbreviated surname as a nickname. I suppose this means their friends don't respect them.

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#1466950 - 07/02/10 10:25 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: jeffreyjones]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8936
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones

Rachmaninoff's masterwork is the Vespers, Op. 37. If you don't believe me, then it's probably because you haven't heard it live. It is astonishing.

You're not alone in that opinion, and it is also a work loved by people who otherwise have no interest in Rachmaninov's music . I have two very contrasting recordings: a very typical 'Russian-sounding' St. Petersburg Choir, but also a very fine and cultivated performance by King's College Choir in Cambridge. I wouldn't be without either.
_________________________
Jason

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#1466998 - 07/02/10 11:55 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: FunkyLlama]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18295
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: FunkyLlama
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
Oh get over it


I agree with the OP, and I won't "get over it," even though you hold that ugly pistol to my head. I think it shows a complete lack of respect and a falsely assumed familiarity. As for familiarity or endearment, the man has been dead a number of years, I don't see how one can claim familiarity with him.

Perhaps such references are just laziness which, in itself, is a cultural trend, I fear.

If your real (as opposed to a screen) name is Pogorelich, would you enjoy being referred to as "Pog"?

Regards,
For Christ's sake. Doesn't the fact that Rachmaninoff is her favourite composer and she herself refers to him as 'Rach' make it blindingly clear to you that actually it doesn't imply a lack of respect? Oh, and newsflash - yes, people will frequently assume their abbreviated surname as a nickname. I suppose this means their friends don't respect them.


Disagree with my old-fashioned and/or misguided sense of formality if you will, but please keep profanity out of the discussion.
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1467104 - 07/02/10 03:58 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: jeffreyjones]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13818
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
I will believe, until the day I die, that Rachmaninoff's best work is found in Opp. 32 and 39.


Rachmaninoff's masterwork is the Vespers, Op. 37. If you don't believe me, then it's probably because you haven't heard it live. It is astonishing.


Agreed! I was only speaking of the piano music. I was in the concert chorale in college and we sang 4 or 5 of the vespers (in Russian!) and it was a great experience. They even let me conduct a rehearsal or two, it was wonderful! A friend of mine was is also the tenor soloist for Svete Tikhyi - O Serene Light (#4) on Shaw's recording. (That and the famous Bogoroditsye Devo, Raduisya are my favorites of the set.)
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1467110 - 07/02/10 04:20 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Kreisler]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18295
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
[...]
Agreed! I was only speaking of the piano music. I was in the concert chorale in college and we sang 4 or 5 of the vespers (in Russian!) and it was a great experience. They even let me conduct a rehearsal or two, it was wonderful! A friend of mine was is also the tenor soloist for Svete Tikhyi - O Serene Light (#4) on Shaw's recording. (That and the famous Bogoroditsye Devo, Raduisya are my favorites of the set.)


I have that recording; I have admired Dent's singing - all too brief - on that track. Fortunately, he also sings on track 5 (Nyne Otpushchayeshi (Now Let Thy Servant Depart)) and on track 9 (BlagoslovenYesi, Gospodi (Blessed Art Thou, O Lord)) What a beautiful voice, and so suited to this writing.

A local choir recently performed the Vespers - in Russian - and what intrigued me about their performance was the 'Slavic' quality of the tone they produced. (I call it 'Slavic' but what do I know about choral tone?) Not the sweet tones of most European choirs or the sometimes 'purer' tones of English choral groups with boy sopranos but a rather, harder, brassy, at times almost nasal, quality to their tone. I emailed one of the members to ask how the director succeeded in getting that tonal quality from these Canadian singers, but she never responded.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1467117 - 07/02/10 04:44 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Kreisler]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2393
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
I will believe, until the day I die, that Rachmaninoff's best work is found in Opp. 32 and 39.


Rachmaninoff's masterwork is the Vespers, Op. 37. If you don't believe me, then it's probably because you haven't heard it live. It is astonishing.


Agreed! I was only speaking of the piano music. I was in the concert chorale in college and we sang 4 or 5 of the vespers (in Russian!) and it was a great experience. They even let me conduct a rehearsal or two, it was wonderful! A friend of mine was is also the tenor soloist for Svete Tikhyi - O Serene Light (#4) on Shaw's recording. (That and the famous Bogoroditsye Devo, Raduisya are my favorites of the set.)


I worked with a local choir in rehearsal for the Vespers.. not through the entire rehearsal period, sadly, but for enough to become completely smitten with the piece. The director was Russian and she really takes the music to heart..

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#1467125 - 07/02/10 05:25 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Kreisler]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4535
Loc: in the past
Bruce, thanks so much for the kind words. Misinformed and unfamiliar? That's what you think I am? Rachmaninoff happens to be my absolute favourite composer. Disrespect? I am planning to do my dma thesis on rach. (yes I'm spiteful. Your post saddened me).

I am usually on my iPhone when here, taking breaks from my practicing and taking advantge of the wifi at my school. It's annoying as it is to type on it, and hell people use short names for a lot of things. So sorry for being such a criminal, it doesn't mean I'm some stupid 20 year old just because sometimes I shorten a name of a composer I happen to love and play more than any other. Actually why am I even making excuses for myself? I've heard lots of people call him rach (even though I don't talk like that in real life) including teachers.

God you people really need to stop being so uptight sometimes.

As for the original post, disasterous sonata? Which planet are you from? It's fine to say you prefer one more than the other but seriously?
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1467136 - 07/02/10 05:54 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: BruceD]
FunkyLlama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 359
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: FunkyLlama
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
Oh get over it


I agree with the OP, and I won't "get over it," even though you hold that ugly pistol to my head. I think it shows a complete lack of respect and a falsely assumed familiarity. As for familiarity or endearment, the man has been dead a number of years, I don't see how one can claim familiarity with him.

Perhaps such references are just laziness which, in itself, is a cultural trend, I fear.

If your real (as opposed to a screen) name is Pogorelich, would you enjoy being referred to as "Pog"?

Regards,
For Christ's sake. Doesn't the fact that Rachmaninoff is her favourite composer and she herself refers to him as 'Rach' make it blindingly clear to you that actually it doesn't imply a lack of respect? Oh, and newsflash - yes, people will frequently assume their abbreviated surname as a nickname. I suppose this means their friends don't respect them.


Disagree with my old-fashioned and/or misguided sense of formality if you will, but please keep profanity out of the discussion.
As Stephen Fry has said on the issue of offence, 'so *** what?' It's the internet, and there will be swearing. If you don't like it, rather than trying to bring discourse to a halt, simply don't take part in the first place. You are the problem here, not me.


Edited by Kreisler (07/02/10 06:03 PM)
Edit Reason: profanity removed

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#1467140 - 07/02/10 06:08 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2667
Loc: Netherlands
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
Bruce, thanks so much for the kind words. Misinformed and unfamiliar? That's what you think I am? Rachmaninoff happens to be my absolute favourite composer. Disrespect? I am planning to do my dma thesis on rach. (yes I'm spiteful. Your post saddened me).

I am usually on my iPhone when here, taking breaks from my practicing and taking advantge of the wifi at my school. It's annoying as it is to type on it, and hell people use short names for a lot of things. So sorry for being such a criminal, it doesn't mean I'm some stupid 20 year old just because sometimes I shorten a name of a composer I happen to love and play more than any other. Actually why am I even making excuses for myself? I've heard lots of people call him rach (even though I don't talk like that in real life) including teachers.

God you people really need to stop being so uptight sometimes.

As for the original post, disasterous sonata? Which planet are you from? It's fine to say you prefer one more than the other but seriously?

from Uranus, and up here we don't like Rachmaninov's 2nd sonata, we prefer his 1st, and always spell his name as it is, abbreviations will send you to a planet called 'Earth', brrr
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couch de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Mussorgski tableaux d'une exposition/Ravel miroirs

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#1467148 - 07/02/10 06:31 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13818
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
Bruce, thanks so much for the kind words. Misinformed and unfamiliar? That's what you think I am? Rachmaninoff happens to be my absolute favourite composer. Disrespect? I am planning to do my dma thesis on rach. (yes I'm spiteful. Your post saddened me).


Every composer has his champion and his critics. I don't think anyone would begrudge you a passion for the music you love. I may be unmoved by the Chopin Variations, but that doesn't mean the work doesn't deserve a devotee.

I'm on record as being unimpressed with the 2nd sonata, but about 10 years ago, a friend of mine performed it in studio class. It was one of the most memorable performances of any piece I have ever witnessed. On that day, for those 20 minutes, it was the greatest piece of piano music ever written, and he the greatest artist I'd ever heard.

Every piece that's capable of moving even a single listener deserves that chance. To have a champion and a convert, however fleeting the moment may be.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1467152 - 07/02/10 06:37 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Kreisler]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2667
Loc: Netherlands
just be glad to have heard it performed by a great artist, and think: "I just heard a beautiful rendition of the second Sonata of Sergei Rachmaninov by soandso" instead of using the condescending ab.s that reduce it to the level that the users of those ab.s have..
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couch de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Mussorgski tableaux d'une exposition/Ravel miroirs

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#1467155 - 07/02/10 06:44 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: dolce sfogato]
FunkyLlama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 359
Originally Posted By: dolce sfogato
just be glad to have heard it performed by a great artist, and think: "I just heard a beautiful rendition of the second Sonata of Sergei Rachmaninov by soandso" instead of using the condescending ab.s that reduce it to the level that the users of those ab.s have..
Condescending? To whom? I'm sure Rach himself doesn't mind, what with being dead and all.


Edited by FunkyLlama (07/02/10 06:45 PM)

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#1467157 - 07/02/10 06:45 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18295
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
Bruce, thanks so much for the kind words. Misinformed and unfamiliar? That's what you think I am? Rachmaninoff happens to be my absolute favourite composer. Disrespect? I am planning to do my dma thesis on rach. (yes I'm spiteful. Your post saddened me).
[..]


Misinformed? I'm not sure what "misinformed" as opposed to "uninformed" means, but no, I don't think so, nor do I think I said so; you appear to be one of the more musically informed contributors on this site. I know you love Rachamninoff's music; there's no doubt in my mind about that.

As for the Rach vs. Rachmaninoff; I come from a generation where a person's family name is one of his points of pride, and that's why I dislike the "pop culture" trend of abbreviating a surname and why I think it shows a lack of consideration.

I guess I have to move with the times and, as one other poster so tactfully and so generously observed, I should just keep my mouth shut!

No offense, but apologies extended.

Regards,
_________________________
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#1467169 - 07/02/10 07:04 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: FunkyLlama]
dolce sfogato Offline
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Originally Posted By: FunkyLlama
Originally Posted By: dolce sfogato
just be glad to have heard it performed by a great artist, and think: "I just heard a beautiful rendition of the second Sonata of Sergei Rachmaninov by soandso" instead of using the condescending ab.s that reduce it to the level that the users of those ab.s have..
Condescending? To whom? I'm sure Rach himself doesn't mind, what with being dead and all.
just stop it, and spell his name, quite a challenge for some people...
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#1467177 - 07/02/10 07:12 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: dolce sfogato]
Pogorelich. Offline
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You guys are hilarious. Hilarrrious!!

As for me, I'm actually off to practice rach 2nd sonata. =) on a yamaha but whatever.
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#1467178 - 07/02/10 07:12 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: dolce sfogato]
FunkyLlama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 359
Originally Posted By: dolce sfogato
Originally Posted By: FunkyLlama
Originally Posted By: dolce sfogato
just be glad to have heard it performed by a great artist, and think: "I just heard a beautiful rendition of the second Sonata of Sergei Rachmaninov by soandso" instead of using the condescending ab.s that reduce it to the level that the users of those ab.s have..
Condescending? To whom? I'm sure Rach himself doesn't mind, what with being dead and all.
just stop it, and spell his name, quite a challenge for some people...
Why should I type his name out in full? Explain to me why I should and I'll be only too glad to.

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#1467181 - 07/02/10 07:16 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: FunkyLlama]
Pogorelich. Offline
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This is the Internet, do you really think it's a fair representation of who we actually are? Obviously some of the members here think they are above everybody. Wouldn't be the first time music and arrogance have crossed...
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#1467183 - 07/02/10 07:22 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
dolce sfogato Offline
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have fun with the rach 2 son. and do a bit of the chop. et.s, u'll be a great artist, i'm sure, but do not let me get the impres. that u no what ure doing, coss culture has a bloodline going much farther back than one might think, and one is to be encouraged to indulge in that knowledge, if one refuses, art will die.
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Mussorgski tableaux d'une exposition/Ravel miroirs

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#1467185 - 07/02/10 07:25 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: dolce sfogato]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Hmm so now I'm not cultured. Sweet! Didn't know that about myself. Thank you so much mr. Shrink.
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#1467186 - 07/02/10 07:26 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: dolce sfogato]
FunkyLlama Offline
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Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 359
Originally Posted By: dolce sfogato
have fun with the rach 2 son. and do a bit of the chop. et.s, u'll be a great artist, i'm sure, but do not let me get the impres. that u no what ure doing, coss culture has a bloodline going much farther back than one might think, and one is to be encouraged to indulge in that knowledge, if one refuses, art will die.
... so abbreviations previously thought harmless are single-handedly destroying art. Yes, that seems feasible.


Edited by FunkyLlama (07/02/10 07:27 PM)

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#1467187 - 07/02/10 07:27 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
dolce sfogato Offline
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don't take me too seriously, am in a bad modd, beware! XX
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Mussorgski tableaux d'une exposition/Ravel miroirs

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#1467188 - 07/02/10 07:28 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: dolce sfogato]
dolce sfogato Offline
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'mood' it should be, obviously, still bad though..grrr
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Mussorgski tableaux d'une exposition/Ravel miroirs

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#1467211 - 07/02/10 08:23 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: dolce sfogato]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Join the club.
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#1467265 - 07/02/10 10:22 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13818
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
This is the Internet, do you really think it's a fair representation of who we actually are?


I think it's a fair representation of how respectful someone is.

I'm always more likely to respond to a post that is well written, and when people have established a reputation of being respectful, I'm far more likely to show them respect as well, even when they don't agree.

If BruceD says "I have to disagree with Kreisler, the 3rd concerto is every bit as well-constructed as the 2nd. The texture is dense, and the structural details are perhaps not as obvious, but they are there nonetheless," then I would be tempted to get the score and recording and give the work a 2nd chance with an open mind.

But if *crzyPIANOnerd* says "ur an idiot, rach 3 is awesome. ur probably just mad that ur not good enuf to play it," then I'd be tempted to stop reading the thread altogether and ignore *crzyPIANOnerd*'s future postings.

Finally, there's really no such thing as "who we really are." As Oscar Wilde wrote, "to hide the artist is art's aim," and there's some truth to that. We all construct images of ourselves for the world to see. Whether it's how we dress, how we act, how we play, how we speak, or how we write, the only thing people have to judge us by is what we give them. This is why I believe the arts exist - it's a means of communication and a medium of self-exploration. It is never the whole truth, but it does give us a unique and interesting glimpse. (And yes, for all you philosophy fans out there, I basically stole all that from Schopenhauer, but I happen to agree with him.)
_________________________
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#1467271 - 07/02/10 10:41 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Kreisler]
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Originally Posted By: Kreisler

Every piece that's capable of moving even a single listener deserves that chance. To have a champion and a convert, however fleeting the moment may be.


Very well said.
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#1467315 - 07/02/10 11:57 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Kreisler]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4535
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Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
This is the Internet, do you really think it's a fair representation of who we actually are?


I think it's a fair representation of how respectful someone is.

I'm always more likely to respond to a post that is well written, and when people have established a reputation of being respectful, I'm far more likely to show them respect as well, even when they don't agree.

If BruceD says "I have to disagree with Kreisler, the 3rd concerto is every bit as well-constructed as the 2nd. The texture is dense, and the structural details are perhaps not as obvious, but they are there nonetheless," then I would be tempted to get the score and recording and give the work a 2nd chance with an open mind.

But if *crzyPIANOnerd* says "ur an idiot, rach 3 is awesome. ur probably just mad that ur not good enuf to play it," then I'd be tempted to stop reading the thread altogether and ignore *crzyPIANOnerd*'s future postings.

Finally, there's really no such thing as "who we really are." As Oscar Wilde wrote, "to hide the artist is art's aim," and there's some truth to that. We all construct images of ourselves for the world to see. Whether it's how we dress, how we act, how we play, how we speak, or how we write, the only thing people have to judge us by is what we give them. This is why I believe the arts exist - it's a means of communication and a medium of self-exploration. It is never the whole truth, but it does give us a unique and interesting glimpse. (And yes, for all you philosophy fans out there, I basically stole all that from Schopenhauer, but I happen to agree with him.)


Fair enough. From now on, I will be entirely proper and not use any ridiculous amount of short language, as it has been proven to be utterly unacceptable.

I feel so incredibly ashamed of typing "rach" instead of "Rachmaninov" or "Rachmaninoff" - although the latter seems to be the spelling Rachmaninoff preferred and used during his stay in the United States. I am deeply sorry! I think I will retreat to my score study, cooking and jazz listening and feel the remorse seeping through my veins.
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#1467332 - 07/03/10 12:27 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
Emanuel Ravelli Offline
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I hate to jump into the middle of this food fight, but I have something to offer on the original topic that will make everybody a little unhappy. Like Angelina, I love Rachmaninoff's music; he's been my favorite composer since I was a kid and I guess he always will be. As for the 2nd sonata, I have the same perspective Billy Martin did in the Miller Lite commercials of the previous generation: "I feel very strongly both ways."

The first movement is well structured and has some interesting chordal writing. I didn't care for it early on, but it has grown on me over the years and I find something new to like in it every time I listen to it (especially the Horowitz and Cliburn recordings).

The second movement is pure heaven. I prefer the revised version to the original, but there are things to like in both. The harmonic modulations on the first page are wondrous, totally unexpected, and the chorale-like section at the top of the second page, with its modulations from G major on through to D major, is the most gorgeous music written in the early 20th century for my money. I fell off the train with this piece because I could never work out a way to play the 3rd page without my hands getting in the way of each other. If Angelina or anyone else who's played that page successfully has any technical suggestions for a good approach, I'd be glad to give them a try.

The third movement, I'm afraid, is just so much virtuosic mush to my ear. As much as I've loved the rest of the sonata, I've tried to find a way to open my mind about the finale and it just isn't working. Helpful suggestions welcome here too.

I haven't posted much in the last several months because of other heavy demands on my time. It's always a pleasure to get back in touch with so many who care so much about music. It's also depressing to see how regularly some of us resort to ad hominem attacks when a little bit of logical persuasion would make it much easier for others to accept or respond to differing views. I, for one, am tired of food fights.
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#1467333 - 07/03/10 12:28 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
bplary1300 Offline
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I'm still gonna type Rach and Tchaik...
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#1467345 - 07/03/10 12:54 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
argerichfan Offline
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Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich

Fair enough. From now on, I will be entirely proper and not use any ridiculous amount of short language, as it has been proven to be utterly unacceptable.

That seems an excessive mea culpa. I've always enjoyed your posts here exactly as you write them. Never any confusion as to what you mean, but more than that, you're always just 'yourself'.

I like your spunk and your point of view. A wonderful and exciting personality comes through in your posts, and you can cook for me anytime. I'm a rather good cook myself. wink
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#1467358 - 07/03/10 01:25 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: argerichfan]
MikeN Offline
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Alright it seems we've gotten through one of the most pointless arguments since the classic,"What's the hardest piece in the world", question.

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#1467376 - 07/03/10 02:14 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: MikeN]
argerichfan Offline
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Originally Posted By: MikeN
Alright it seems we've gotten through one of the most pointless arguments since the classic,"What's the hardest piece in the world", question.

Low signal to noise ratio, endemic to any active board. At least there was mention of Rachmaninov's Vespers, and I hope by that example others may be encouraged to check it out.

Otherwise, what do I care how Rachmaninov is abbreviated? With due respect to those who objected, I never gave it any thought, and frankly I was mystified about the fuss. There are more important things to worry about.

And of course some threads just aren't worth the trouble in the first place. Currently there's a very active one 'Music and Spirituality', but it's basically a quagmire. It's not going to change anybody's opinion.
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#1467403 - 07/03/10 03:55 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Kreisler]
beet31425 Offline
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Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
I will believe, until the day I die, that Rachmaninoff's best work is found in Opp. 32 and 39.

Inspired by this suggestion, I've begun familiarizing myself with all the preludes, Op.23 and Op.32, of which I currently know half.

I've found a wonderful recording: Eldar Nebolsin on Naxos. Edge-of-your-seat exciting, and clear as a bell. Anyone know it?

I've forgotten how good old Roxy is. Like his compatriot Tchaiko, he's somehow simultaneously overplayed *and* underrated.

-Jason
_________________________
Schubert Immersion: Bb Impromptu; C# minor and Ab Moments Musicaux; accompanying four songs (Suleika II, Rastlose Liebe, Du Liebst Mich Nicht, Im Fruhling); listening intensely to Die Schne Mllerin and Winterreise

Chopin: first Ballade; Mozart: D minor concerto;

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#1467432 - 07/03/10 06:07 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: beet31425]
babama Offline
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Registered: 02/15/08
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Loc: Netherlands
this is my favorite at the moment


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#1467551 - 07/03/10 11:58 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Emanuel Ravelli]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4535
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Originally Posted By: Emanuel Ravelli
I fell off the train with this piece because I could never work out a way to play the 3rd page without my hands getting in the way of each other. If Angelina or anyone else who's played that page successfully has any technical suggestions for a good approach, I'd be glad to give them a try.



I think you just need to figure out the choreography of it all; which hand goes under or on top first, and memorize the patterns. For instance, the first cross-over has the thumb of the LH crossing right in between the thumb and second finger of the RH. Eventually you'll just get used to it..
_________________________

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#1467626 - 07/03/10 01:58 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: dolce sfogato]
Mostly Offline
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Registered: 05/14/10
Posts: 271
I 8 L2P R PS1

Edit : it's fine already, it's a forum. A small dose of abbreviating doesn't hurt anyone, and things such as Rach3 are popular on the interwebs. Regarding the family name respect, as long as you don't speak that way in real life, his grave will only be shaken, not stirred.


Edited by Mostly (07/03/10 02:01 PM)

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#1467781 - 07/03/10 09:08 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Emanuel Ravelli]
SlatterFan Offline
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Registered: 08/13/09
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Loc: Brighton, UK
General note: I first heard the terms "Rach" and "Rach 3" from a college friend in 1989 (who I think had picked it up from his piano teacher), seven years before Shine came out in cinemas. We both admired Rachmaninoff, and no disrespect was intended. I think some understandable frustration with modern lazy speech patterns has missed its target in this case.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted By: Emanuel Ravelli
The third movement, I'm afraid, is just so much virtuosic mush to my ear. As much as I've loved the rest of the sonata, I've tried to find a way to open my mind about the finale and it just isn't working. Helpful suggestions welcome here too.

Okay, here are my thoughts on the 3rd movement. Importantly, please turn to the original 1913 version of the sonata before continuing! Apart from the first two measures of the Allegro molto, where I like the revised version's chromatic tie-in with the theme of the 1st movement, I follow the original version. I don't like any of the later cuts.

Here is my analysis:

Three energetic ideas are introduced (unless one counts the opening downward run as a 4th, a varied form of the very opening of the sonata):
1) Staccato 1/8 note chords, often octaves with shifting inner notes in the RH.
2) Rising intervals from a 3rd to a 6th, from triplet off beat to on beat. First appeared in a different arrangement in bars 18-22 of the 1st movement.
3) Triplet figurations, chromatic and dynamic, anticipating Op.39 No.6. The chromatic descending triplets in the bass are linked to the opening flourish of the sonata and the primary theme of the 1st movement.

These ideas appear separately, then after another downward flourish are playfully juxtaposed. Then after a four measure bridge (the marcato chords) the opening sequence repeats, but instead of a flourish and playfulness, we have a new quirky rhythm (G minor section heralded by the D double octaves, similar to a passage near the end of Grieg's Ballade Op.24). No sooner than this is established, the opening theme slowly slinks down another quirky rhythm, even less certain or stable. Now the chromatic downward triplets mentioned in idea 3) above are heard with a melody of imploring rising 1/4 notes, which are going to be important later on. These subside in resignation into the second main theme...

This beautiful theme has passion and sounds as if it could build to something big when it repeats an octave higher, but it too subsides in resignation. The overall emotional impression is that of frisky energy and positivity, then tender passion, both of which have the potential to "succeed", to blossom, but at the moment a vital ingredient or spark is missing...

Reprise of the first group of ideas. However this time the frisky energy is repeatedly held back by subdued undulating 1/8 notes from the second romantic theme. After two attempts to spark energy, will it be third time lucky? Yes... but patience is a virtue...

The Meno mosso passage, so tragically cut from the revised 1931 version, enables the transformation. The rising intervals from idea 2) move thoughtfully and mysteriously, duplets this time instead of triplets, with a LH accompaniment highlighting the similarly between this passage and the original cadenza to the 1st movement of the 3rd concerto. The harmonies avoid a plain major or minor for a tantalizing amount of time, but very soon after a minor harmony emerges (E flat minor), bell-like sonorities are heard, descending 3rds from the 1st movement. It seems that the vital ingedient has been provided, because the bells organically flow into a passage where the rising intervals, instead of restlessly pulling around, are simple 3rds, gently descending by a tone each time, with great transparency and beauty, until they reach exactly the same pitch as bar 18 of the 1st movement: the first time the idea appeared.

Another reprise of the first group of ideas. This time the interruption takes the form of the imploring rising 1/4 notes mentioned earlier... but this time they speed up into 1/8 notes and turn into idea 1), the friskily energetic staccato 1/8 note chords. The idea associated with resignation and failure to bloom is itself now repeatedly being transformed into friskiness. This is a very positive sign!

The imploring asceding 1/4 notes briefly take hold again, but only to introduce the return the second theme, this time in the home key of B flat. It doesn't fizzle out this time, in fact, where the first appearance held back before repeating the melody an octave higher, in the same place this one accelerates into increasingly large and exciting octave leaps, which flow into the triumpant closing Presto.

I realize that some of my interpretation may seem fanciful, but the general concept of musical themes missing a vital ingredient and thus fizzling out, then receiving a spark and enabling a truly happy and confident ending, had already appeared clearly in large scale works such as Mahler's 5th Symphony. Part I: two contrasting responses to tragedy, funereal and furious, both trying to get somewhere but fizzling out. Part II: Scherzo with vital frisky contrapuntal energy. Part III: Outpouring of grief in the famous Adagietto, clearing the way for the contrapuntal energy to take its theme, speed it up, and give the symphony a joyous ending.
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#1467859 - 07/04/10 12:00 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: SlatterFan]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13818
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: SlatterFan
Here is my analysis:


Very nice!
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#1468107 - 07/04/10 12:09 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: argerichfan]
FunkyLlama Offline
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Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 359
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich

Fair enough. From now on, I will be entirely proper and not use any ridiculous amount of short language, as it has been proven to be utterly unacceptable.

That seems an excessive mea culpa. I've always enjoyed your posts here exactly as you write them. Never any confusion as to what you mean, but more than that, you're always just 'yourself'.

I like your spunk and your point of view. A wonderful and exciting personality comes through in your posts, and you can cook for me anytime. I'm a rather good cook myself. wink
I thought it was fairly clear that she was being ironic : /

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#1468114 - 07/04/10 12:30 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: FunkyLlama]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4535
Loc: in the past
Nooooo.. I am never ironic =) Or sarcastic? Pfft.

Julian: for your third note, I think that triplet chromatic figure happens in the very opening of the movement in the RH. So it's introduced way earlier..

There are a lot of elements in 3 that come from the 1st movement - like the rhythms from bar 9 (triplets) kind of remind of the build up in the 1st movement, but it's reversed. Btw does anyone else notice a strange similarity to La Valse here? Haha.. Also bar 20 is blatantly out of the first movement - the RH figures. All those chromatic figures remind me of the motif from the 1st mvt. It's pretty cool how in bars 39 and 40 the figure is back. And in the development that figure with the triplets is everywhere again. Also near the end, after the 2nd theme comes back (tempo rubato), the "a tempo" before the presto, it's a slowed down figure but I think still represents the one from the first movement (chords in the opening). And of course, the last bar, classic - the figure again, but this time the RH is stationary.

I love that piece..
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'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1468223 - 07/04/10 03:36 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
SlatterFan Offline
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Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 784
Loc: Brighton, UK
I hadn't noticed those thematic links before, Angelina; thanks! It's a very "well-connected" work, and the more one looks, the more one finds unifying and organic features.

By the way, do you think Rachmaninoff knew Mendelssohn's Song without Words Op.30 No.2 in B flat minor, by any chance? grin

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Julian

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#1468248 - 07/04/10 04:32 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: SlatterFan]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4535
Loc: in the past
Oh my god.. Definitely worth the research. That's very strange!!
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#1468374 - 07/04/10 10:42 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: dolce sfogato]
jdhampton924 Offline
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Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 1009
Loc: Evansville, Indiana
Commenting on the sonatas of Rachmaninoff,
I have ran into two kinds of people concerning Rachmaninoff as a composer. The ones who consider him to be the best composer of all time, and the ones who consider him to be one of the worst. It for the most part seems to be in these extremes. The people I know who love Rachmaninoff, tend to just want to play him.

I feel rather in the middle, some days i love him, other days I am blah. His sonatas are good though in my opinion, I have heard good performances of both on recordings. The first is a bit hard to swallow, I do not mean that in a bad way, It is a large, epic, and complicated work. Though prefer it to his second sonata.

Is there sonatas by other composers I would rather play? Well the answer is yes, I find some other sonatas of other romantic composers such as Brahms, Schumann, Mendelssohn, and Chopin to stimulate me more, but it does not change my opinion that the two sonatas from Rachmaninoff are good.

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#1468436 - 07/05/10 02:12 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: FunkyLlama]
argerichfan Offline
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Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8936
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: FunkyLlama
I thought it was fairly clear that she was being ironic : /

One cannot be too careful. laugh
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Jason

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#1468439 - 07/05/10 02:17 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: argerichfan]
jdhampton924 Offline
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Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 1009
Loc: Evansville, Indiana
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: FunkyLlama
I thought it was fairly clear that she was being ironic : /

One cannot be too careful. laugh


There is no fun in assuming ironic!

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#1468454 - 07/05/10 03:08 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: jdhampton924]
argerichfan Offline
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Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8936
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: jdhampton924

There is no fun in assuming ironic!

Sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't. This board can be nasty, but don't assume the BIG BOYS always have the answer.

I laugh at them sometimes, as they do with me! laugh
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Jason

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#1468470 - 07/05/10 04:34 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: argerichfan]
btb Offline
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Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Is there anybody out there who can do justice to the playing of the 3rd movement of the Rachmaninoff 36-2 sonata?

Here’s what the opening page (IMSLP with thanks) looks like ...
the L’istesso tempo is very moody in setting up the scary Allegro molto ... wonder what Rach was smoking.

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#1468551 - 07/05/10 10:29 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
jdhampton924 Offline
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Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 1009
Loc: Evansville, Indiana
Are you refering to anyone on the forums that can play it? or just recordings in general?

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#1468560 - 07/05/10 10:53 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13818
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: btb
Is there anybody out there who can do justice to the playing of the 3rd movement of the Rachmaninoff 36-2 sonata?


I'm pretty sure Angelina can pull it off, and very well. We probably have a dozen or so members who could manage it without too much trouble.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1468566 - 07/05/10 11:07 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Kreisler]
btb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
"Is there anybody out there who can do justice to the playing of the 3rd movement of the Rachmaninoff 36-2 sonata?"

IMHO you are pulling the wool Kreisler ... and need to be a little more than "pretty sure" about these members "who could manage it without too much trouble?"

Put your hands up all those chaps who can play this movement.

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#1468667 - 07/05/10 02:49 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
stores Offline
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Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
There's no need to be "pretty sure" about Angelina pulling it off, because she CAN play it (and very well I might add).
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1468671 - 07/05/10 02:59 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: stores]
bplary1300 Offline
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Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 353
Loc: Maine
I love this sonata, but prefer the unrevised version if it. My favorite interpretation is Ashkenazy's on his disc of the preludes.
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#1468882 - 07/05/10 08:45 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: bplary1300]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4535
Loc: in the past
No my recording from my recital was absolutely awful and terrible. I've changed many things, it's faster now, cleaner (finally it only took an entire year) and I don't use the pedal to cover my a.. Hahaha

I'd say the original rach is much much scarier!
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#1469017 - 07/06/10 03:20 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
btb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Well, there you are stores,

By her own admission Angelina made a total havoc ("absolutely awful and terrible") of the Rach sonata ... and took a year making the distance ... but bravo for getting back on the mustang.

Here’s a MIDI of the opening 40 measures of movement 3 to show the vast spread of this sub-par Rach sonata ... thank goodness he bucked up to give us his PC2.

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#1469031 - 07/06/10 04:11 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
stores Offline
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Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
And she's notoriously hard on herself. It's not nearly as bad as she makes it out to be.
Your graphs don't really tell me anything at all (I suppose with the right piece we could make nice wallpaper out of them though). I'm curious as to what spurs you to label the sonata "sub par"... it's not, but then, to each their own, I suppose.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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#1469060 - 07/06/10 05:54 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: stores]
btb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Hi stores,

You gallantly (Arthurian stock perhaps) in coming to the defence of "hard on herself" Angelina ... and boldly state that the Rach sonata is worthy ... but, if the jolly old composition had any real merit, we’d all add it to our repertoire of Beethoven sonatas and Chopin Nocturnes.

One of the genius qualities of the Masters is the uncompromising drive to polish to perfection ... where the final hard-won score is reduced to it’s Spartan poetic essence ... and that means a tight-knit cohesive structure (no woolly concept or notes).

Thanks for the wallpaper suggestion ... the MIDI graph is merely an accurate map of note pitch (up) and duration (across) ... Rach vainly attempts to stretch the keyboard to it’s limits ... just look at the Bb at m24 (the bottom note on my piano) which starts those repeated jumped arpeggios ... on which he parades a predictable chordal cascade ... while the wafty ascent at m28-31 lacks boldness ... before getting off my hobby-horse ... must just mention the clumsy sequence of chords at m36-38 (never to be used again by Rach).

Anytime you want to analyse Rach’s mastery of PC2 ... let’s open a new thread.



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#1469065 - 07/06/10 06:01 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
FunkyLlama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 359
Originally Posted By: btb
but, if the jolly old composition had any real merit, we’d all add it to our repertoire of Beethoven sonatas and Chopin Nocturnes.
Inferring anything about a piece's quality from its popularity is a bad idea. Case in point: the mass neglect of Bach's ouvre after his death.

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#1469071 - 07/06/10 06:15 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: FunkyLlama]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Right on FunkyLlama,

Thank goodness for Mendelssohn raising the Phoenix from the ashes.

You can't keep a good man down ... as the old saying goes.

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#1469151 - 07/06/10 09:53 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: stores]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4535
Loc: in the past
btb - not a year FROM the recital, that was only 2-3 months apart, but a year after I started learning the sonata.
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#1469154 - 07/06/10 09:55 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4535
Loc: in the past
Excuse me, but "but, if the jolly old composition had any real merit, we’d all add it to our repertoire of Beethoven sonatas and Chopin Nocturnes."

??????????????

Am I missing something? Who are "we"? Plenty, PLENTY of people play this sonata. Do you think you are in some ways special, and just because you refuse to play it (out of fear probably?) it makes it less worthy? That's kind of funny...
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'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1469157 - 07/06/10 09:58 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
Kuanpiano Offline
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Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
...Beethoven's hammerklavier has a lot of merit, but few people have it in their repertoire...and people don't play Rachmaninoff's second sonata for a similar reason as well.
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#1469171 - 07/06/10 10:33 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13818
Loc: Iowa City, IA
I agree with Angelina, the piece is extremely popular. I've heard it performed live about as often as the other major romantic sonatas. (And more often than the Brahms sonatas and Wanderer Fantasy.)

I also don't really know what "thank goodness he bucked up to give us his PC2" means. I thought the 2nd sonata was written after the 2nd concerto. (I'm going by opus numbers, I don't really know the history of the sketches.)
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1469181 - 07/06/10 10:50 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
Excuse me, but "but, if the jolly old composition had any real merit, we’d all add it to our repertoire of Beethoven sonatas and Chopin Nocturnes."

??????????????

Am I missing something? Who are "we"? Plenty, PLENTY of people play this sonata. Do you think you are in some ways special, and just because you refuse to play it (out of fear probably?) it makes it less worthy? That's kind of funny...
I'd agree, based on attending competitions, recitals and watching competitions on Youtube. This piece is one of the most popular at competitions.

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#1469211 - 07/06/10 12:05 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: pianoloverus]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Well,well ... OP dolce sfogato has got his money’s worth out of this thread ... and to think that he gave us
the clue to the quality of 36-2 when he opened with:

“and let's stop putting his 3rd attempt to write a decent sonata at the top of the list,he managed a good one, the op. 19, an ok one, the op. 28

and a disastrous one, yes the op.36, and he knew it.”

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#1469215 - 07/06/10 12:08 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
Kuanpiano Offline
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Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
...that's one person's opinion. Which is hardly a fact.
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#1469241 - 07/06/10 12:41 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Kuanpiano]
btb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
From all accounts Dolce sfogato is a highly competent pianist (if not professional) ...
and prefers the first two Rachmaninoff sonatas (op, 19 and op. 28) to the third op. 36.

Some of us (who can’t play the sonatas) like to be guided by his judgment.

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#1469245 - 07/06/10 12:44 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
Kuanpiano Offline
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Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
You don't have to be able to play a sonata to judge it's merit.

Who here has played Rach 3, Prokofiev 2, Brahms 2, Beethoven's op.106/111? We've all heard them, studied the scores, loved them, but we can't play them. We can do the same to op.36 as well.
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#1469246 - 07/06/10 12:44 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4535
Loc: in the past
Why? Don't you have a brain for yourself to decide?

And since when has rachmaninoff ever liked a composition of his? He was incredibly insecure.

Horowitz played the second, not the first. At least not to my knowledge. How would you explain that?
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1469291 - 07/06/10 02:02 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8936
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich

Horowitz played the second, not the first. At least not to my knowledge. How would you explain that?

I would be very surprised if Horowitz hadn't learned and played the 1st sonata privately. Why he never played it publicly (at least in later years), is anyone's guess. (And why the heck didn't he play any of the concertos besides the 3rd?) Sadly, it's our loss- Horowitz could have been the ultimate interpreter.
_________________________
Jason

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#1469462 - 07/06/10 07:22 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: btb
Hi stores,

You gallantly (Arthurian stock perhaps) in coming to the defence of "hard on herself" Angelina ... and boldly state that the Rach sonata is worthy ... but, if the jolly old composition had any real merit, we’d all add it to our repertoire of Beethoven sonatas and Chopin Nocturnes.

One of the genius qualities of the Masters is the uncompromising drive to polish to perfection ... where the final hard-won score is reduced to it’s Spartan poetic essence ... and that means a tight-knit cohesive structure (no woolly concept or notes).

Thanks for the wallpaper suggestion ... the MIDI graph is merely an accurate map of note pitch (up) and duration (across) ... Rach vainly attempts to stretch the keyboard to it’s limits ... just look at the Bb at m24 (the bottom note on my piano) which starts those repeated jumped arpeggios ... on which he parades a predictable chordal cascade ... while the wafty ascent at m28-31 lacks boldness ... before getting off my hobby-horse ... must just mention the clumsy sequence of chords at m36-38 (never to be used again by Rach).

Anytime you want to analyse Rach’s mastery of PC2 ... let’s open a new thread.




No gallant defense here as Angelina stands up for herself very well. I do defend, however, the sonata's merit. It's a work of great quality and fits quite nicely with any repertoire including your LVB sonatas/Chopin nocturnes. I'd be willing to bet that most repertoires sans the sonata appear so due to limited ability more than anything, but surely not quality in regard to the work itself.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1469464 - 07/06/10 07:28 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: argerichfan]
jdhampton924 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 1009
Loc: Evansville, Indiana
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich

Horowitz played the second, not the first. At least not to my knowledge. How would you explain that?

I would be very surprised if Horowitz hadn't learned and played the 1st sonata privately. Why he never played it publicly (at least in later years), is anyone's guess. (And why the heck didn't he play any of the concertos besides the 3rd?) Sadly, it's our loss- Horowitz could have been the ultimate interpreter.


Overall though, Horowitz did not seem to perform many concertos live it seems.

Ok that is more of a question...Did horowitz play that many concertos?

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#1469466 - 07/06/10 07:33 PM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: jdhampton924]
Thracozaag Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/06/04
Posts: 1980
Loc: Salt Lake City
In his rep (as far as I know):

Chopin 2
Brahms 1 and 2
Rach 1, 2, 3
Liszt 1 and 2
Mozart K. 488
Tchaikovsky 1
Beethoven 5

I would be willing to bet he also knew the Scriabin concerto and probably a couple of the Medtner's as well.
_________________________
"I'm a concert pianist--that's a pretentious way of saying I'm unemployed at the moment."--Oscar Levant

http://www.youtube.com/kojiattwood
https://www.giftedmusicschool.org/

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#1469654 - 07/07/10 02:51 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Thracozaag]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
For what it’s worth Angelina ... the MIDI format gives me the advantage of playing
any keyboard masterpiece prima vista ... including the 40 measures of the Rachmaninoff sonata op. 36 earlier shown ... by this graphic method Beethoven Opus 111 sonata ...
(which is beyond the reach of Kuanpiano) becomes a breeze, when transcribed.

My heart goes out to my respected Forum colleagues slogging at fevered practising ... when the MIDI format would change practising into instant playing .. like reading a favourite book.

With respect chaps ... what a bunch of dodos ... our schools provide the graphic format by which we all learn to snap fluctuations in the gold price ... and yet we persist with an antiquated (grotesquely distorted) music notation.

But then, you chaps can’t change ... once trapped into the abcdefg mind-set.


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#1469664 - 07/07/10 03:24 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
pleeeeease explain smile
Do you mean that you read an alternative notation (in MIDI format) which makes it much easier for you to play the piece when sitting at the piano?

You don't mean just pressing playback button after entering all the notes at your leisure do you?

I like your graphics btb but I never realised you read them!!

Edit: C'mon btb! I am so curious to see what the page actually looks like. Could you post the first page of op111 that you read? It can't imagine reading the graph above, but maybe if it was much bigger I could see it. Thanks smile


Edited by Canonie (07/07/10 03:35 AM)
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1469665 - 07/07/10 03:30 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6251
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: btb
For what it’s worth Angelina ... the MIDI format gives me the advantage of playing
any keyboard masterpiece prima vista ... including the 40 measures of the Rachmaninoff sonata op. 36 earlier shown ... by this graphic method Beethoven Opus 111 sonata ...
(which is beyond the reach of Kuanpiano) becomes a breeze, when transcribed.

My heart goes out to my respected Forum colleagues slogging at fevered practising ... when the MIDI format would change practising into instant playing .. like reading a favourite book.

With respect chaps ... what a bunch of dodos ... our schools provide the graphic format by which we all learn to snap fluctuations in the gold price ... and yet we persist with an antiquated (grotesquely distorted) music notation.

But then, you chaps can’t change ... once trapped into the abcdefg mind-set.



I'm at a loss as to what this post even means. You said you couldn't play the sonatas so you can't be suggesting that you can if you can see them in some faux-piano-roll style of a midi editor. Unless you just let a midi sequencer press the keys for you, how is Opus 111 a breeze to play? If that is the case, then I don't see the worth. What am I missing? Am I up too late?
_________________________
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#1469701 - 07/07/10 06:26 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Damon]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Too true Canonie from Oz,

I can read the MIDI format ... I call it by that name so that the folk don’t throw too many stones at me ... nobody likes a smart-alec ... as a fresh 26 year old architect visiting London (and working in the office of Sir Basil Spence - designer of the New Coventry Cathedral) I dreamt up the graphic format , using the Pathetique Sonata as first prototype ... 40 years later I am fortunate enough to be able to download, print and play some thousand transcribed keyboard masterpieces.

Here’s what you asked for ... MIDI of the opening 32 measures to the Beethoven sonata
Opus 111 ... I’ve just re-visited the gem at my Grotrian Steinweg and came all over goose-bumps ... images of stone-deaf Beethoven crashing those dramatic chords in the opening 4 measures ,,, and repeating the Theme higher at m5-8 (those racy arpeggio runs need some working on) ... then those glorious chiming converging chords from m9-16 ... ominously dropping the LH chord at m19 to maintain the meeting arms ... the chord at m21 drips with the finality of doom ... only to rumble into an even more macabre passage at 21-24 ... while m25-28 is positively ghoulish ending in a sepulchral pp trill.

You will notice on the graphic the six octaves of the keyboard ... divided by bold C lines ... pitch is accurately measured up and note duration across ... sharps and flats fall away by giving equal space to each of the 12 basic keyboard notes ... and numbering the notes
similar to the familiar 5 minute divisions on a clock face:
60 (C) 05, 10 (D) , 15, 20 (E) . 25 (F) , 30, 35 (G) , 40, 45 (A) , 50, 55 (B) , 60 (C)

After you’ve had your nervous breakdown ... you might like to chat some more ... it should be pointed out however, that the mind-set of the alphabetic notation makes change nigh impossible.


PS The success of the format lies in snap-reading the overall picture of the music ... where the individual notes merely articulate the shape... the grey areas represent compound sound (ie chords)


Edited by btb (07/07/10 06:49 AM)

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#1469745 - 07/07/10 08:43 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Wow btb, I'm having a good look at it now. There are dynamics and performance indications! I've seen these when you've posted them before but never realised you used them for reading. Sorry for this thread derail but I don't spose it matters too much at this stage.

I assume this works well when you have a good sound memory of the piece, or use a recording alongside - is that right? I can see the bold lines inside the grey areas to accurately mark the notes of the chords.

And have you ever tried to read a new (to you) piece notated in this method, or got someone else to try this? It's hard to imagine that this is possible except for much simpler pieces than this. Would you say there is less detail possible in this format? or would it be possible to develop the language further?

Thanks for the explanation, I find alternative notations fascinating. My students occasionally come up with bizarre methods of notating their early compositions - things I'd never think of.
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1469808 - 07/07/10 10:53 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Canonie]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4535
Loc: in the past
My apologies I forgot Beethoven loved MIDI. It really is the best way to learn music, how insightful!

Yet you still have the balls to criticize the rest of us, who actually devote time and effort into learning something.. Yeeeah you are always right aren't you. To hell with the proper format. Oh and the second sonata is sure a piece of crap.

I think I'm goin to stop wasting my time with your amazing words of wisdom. You should feel special - you're the first user I'm ever going to put on my ignore list! Yay!
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1469813 - 07/07/10 11:01 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Pogorelich.]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
My search for anything new to process is like blotting paper ... anything to make my day ... but to give you some idea of the vast territory covered ... here’s a popular song by Leonard Bernstein from "West Side Story" ... the haunting "Maria".

You will notice that the lyrics are neatly perched above the keyboard outlines ... in this case there’s even a snap of a youthful Bernstein (sadly smoked himself to death ) ... I tend to play this party-piece at the drop of a hat ... don’t tempt me.

Anything new which might be spotlighted by one of our colleagues is accessed through IMSLP as with the Rachmaninoff sonata op. 36 ... thus the 40m graphic posted ... by which the content is discovered as a graphic shape ... in this case, because of the scattered nature of the note patterns and the spread between LH and RH roles, it took a few play-throughs before the music gelled.

Kind regards,




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#1469819 - 07/07/10 11:16 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: btb]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
I don't understand the point of these when it's all too obvious from the score.

And yes, op.111 is beyond my reach, but I don't see how it becomes any closer when translated into midi. Heck, I don't even know what you're talking about any more.
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#1469831 - 07/07/10 11:49 AM Re: Rach and his 2nd sonata [Re: Kuanpiano]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4535
Loc: in the past
I don't think anyone knows.. hahahahaah..
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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