Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Rach and his 2nd sonata

Very well said.

Fair enough. From now on, I will be entirely proper and not use any ridiculous amount of short language, as it has been proven to be utterly unacceptable.

I feel so incredibly ashamed of typing "rach" instead of "Rachmaninov" or "Rachmaninoff" - although the latter seems to be the spelling Rachmaninoff preferred and used during his stay in the United States. I am deeply sorry! I think I will retreat to my score study, cooking and jazz listening and feel the remorse seeping through my veins.

I hate to jump into the middle of this food fight, but I have something to offer on the original topic that will make everybody a little unhappy. Like Angelina, I love Rachmaninoff's music; he's been my favorite composer since I was a kid and I guess he always will be. As for the 2nd sonata, I have the same perspective Billy Martin did in the Miller Lite commercials of the previous generation: "I feel very strongly both ways."

The first movement is well structured and has some interesting chordal writing. I didn't care for it early on, but it has grown on me over the years and I find something new to like in it every time I listen to it (especially the Horowitz and Cliburn recordings).

The second movement is pure heaven. I prefer the revised version to the original, but there are things to like in both. The harmonic modulations on the first page are wondrous, totally unexpected, and the chorale-like section at the top of the second page, with its modulations from G major on through to D major, is the most gorgeous music written in the early 20th century for my money. I fell off the train with this piece because I could never work out a way to play the 3rd page without my hands getting in the way of each other. If Angelina or anyone else who's played that page successfully has any technical suggestions for a good approach, I'd be glad to give them a try.

The third movement, I'm afraid, is just so much virtuosic mush to my ear. As much as I've loved the rest of the sonata, I've tried to find a way to open my mind about the finale and it just isn't working. Helpful suggestions welcome here too.

I haven't posted much in the last several months because of other heavy demands on my time. It's always a pleasure to get back in touch with so many who care so much about music. It's also depressing to see how regularly some of us resort to ad hominem attacks when a little bit of logical persuasion would make it much easier for others to accept or respond to differing views. I, for one, am tired of food fights.

I'm still gonna type Rach and Tchaik...

That seems an excessive mea culpa. I've always enjoyed your posts here exactly as you write them. Never any confusion as to what you mean, but more than that, you're always just 'yourself'.

I like your spunk and your point of view. A wonderful and exciting personality comes through in your posts, and you can cook for me anytime. I'm a rather good cook myself.

Alright it seems we've gotten through one of the most pointless arguments since the classic,"What's the hardest piece in the world", question.

Low signal to noise ratio, endemic to any active board. At least there was mention of Rachmaninov's Vespers, and I hope by that example others may be encouraged to check it out.

Otherwise, what do I care how Rachmaninov is abbreviated? With due respect to those who objected, I never gave it any thought, and frankly I was mystified about the fuss. There are more important things to worry about.

And of course some threads just aren't worth the trouble in the first place. Currently there's a very active one 'Music and Spirituality', but it's basically a quagmire. It's not going to change anybody's opinion.

Inspired by this suggestion, I've begun familiarizing myself with all the preludes, Op.23 and Op.32, of which I currently know half.

I've found a wonderful recording: Eldar Nebolsin on Naxos. Edge-of-your-seat exciting, and clear as a bell. Anyone know it?

I've forgotten how good old Roxy is. Like his compatriot Tchaiko, he's somehow simultaneously overplayed *and* underrated.

-Jason

this is my favorite at the moment

I think you just need to figure out the choreography of it all; which hand goes under or on top first, and memorize the patterns. For instance, the first cross-over has the thumb of the LH crossing right in between the thumb and second finger of the RH. Eventually you'll just get used to it..

I 8 L2P R PS1

Edit : it's fine already, it's a forum. A small dose of abbreviating doesn't hurt anyone, and things such as Rach3 are popular on the interwebs. Regarding the family name respect, as long as you don't speak that way in real life, his grave will only be shaken, not stirred.

General note: I first heard the terms "Rach" and "Rach 3" from a college friend in 1989 (who I think had picked it up from his piano teacher), seven years before Shine came out in cinemas. We both admired Rachmaninoff, and no disrespect was intended. I think some understandable frustration with modern lazy speech patterns has missed its target in this case.

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Okay, here are my thoughts on the 3rd movement. Importantly, please turn to the original 1913 version of the sonata before continuing! Apart from the first two measures of the Allegro molto, where I like the revised version's chromatic tie-in with the theme of the 1st movement, I follow the original version. I don't like any of the later cuts.

Here is my analysis:

Three energetic ideas are introduced (unless one counts the opening downward run as a 4th, a varied form of the very opening of the sonata):
1) Staccato 1/8 note chords, often octaves with shifting inner notes in the RH.
2) Rising intervals from a 3rd to a 6th, from triplet off beat to on beat. First appeared in a different arrangement in bars 18-22 of the 1st movement.
3) Triplet figurations, chromatic and dynamic, anticipating Op.39 No.6. The chromatic descending triplets in the bass are linked to the opening flourish of the sonata and the primary theme of the 1st movement.

These ideas appear separately, then after another downward flourish are playfully juxtaposed. Then after a four measure bridge (the marcato chords) the opening sequence repeats, but instead of a flourish and playfulness, we have a new quirky rhythm (G minor section heralded by the D double octaves, similar to a passage near the end of Grieg's Ballade Op.24). No sooner than this is established, the opening theme slowly slinks down another quirky rhythm, even less certain or stable. Now the chromatic downward triplets mentioned in idea 3) above are heard with a melody of imploring rising 1/4 notes, which are going to be important later on. These subside in resignation into the second main theme...

This beautiful theme has passion and sounds as if it could build to something big when it repeats an octave higher, but it too subsides in resignation. The overall emotional impression is that of frisky energy and positivity, then tender passion, both of which have the potential to "succeed", to blossom, but at the moment a vital ingredient or spark is missing...

Reprise of the first group of ideas. However this time the frisky energy is repeatedly held back by subdued undulating 1/8 notes from the second romantic theme. After two attempts to spark energy, will it be third time lucky? Yes... but patience is a virtue...

The Meno mosso passage, so tragically cut from the revised 1931 version, enables the transformation. The rising intervals from idea 2) move thoughtfully and mysteriously, duplets this time instead of triplets, with a LH accompaniment highlighting the similarly between this passage and the original cadenza to the 1st movement of the 3rd concerto. The harmonies avoid a plain major or minor for a tantalizing amount of time, but very soon after a minor harmony emerges (E flat minor), bell-like sonorities are heard, descending 3rds from the 1st movement. It seems that the vital ingedient has been provided, because the bells organically flow into a passage where the rising intervals, instead of restlessly pulling around, are simple 3rds, gently descending by a tone each time, with great transparency and beauty, until they reach exactly the same pitch as bar 18 of the 1st movement: the first time the idea appeared.

Another reprise of the first group of ideas. This time the interruption takes the form of the imploring rising 1/4 notes mentioned earlier... but this time they speed up into 1/8 notes and turn into idea 1), the friskily energetic staccato 1/8 note chords. The idea associated with resignation and failure to bloom is itself now repeatedly being transformed into friskiness. This is a very positive sign!

The imploring asceding 1/4 notes briefly take hold again, but only to introduce the return the second theme, this time in the home key of B flat. It doesn't fizzle out this time, in fact, where the first appearance held back before repeating the melody an octave higher, in the same place this one accelerates into increasingly large and exciting octave leaps, which flow into the triumpant closing Presto.

I realize that some of my interpretation may seem fanciful, but the general concept of musical themes missing a vital ingredient and thus fizzling out, then receiving a spark and enabling a truly happy and confident ending, had already appeared clearly in large scale works such as Mahler's 5th Symphony. Part I: two contrasting responses to tragedy, funereal and furious, both trying to get somewhere but fizzling out. Part II: Scherzo with vital frisky contrapuntal energy. Part III: Outpouring of grief in the famous Adagietto, clearing the way for the contrapuntal energy to take its theme, speed it up, and give the symphony a joyous ending.

Very nice!

I thought it was fairly clear that she was being ironic : /

Nooooo.. I am never ironic =) Or sarcastic? Pfft.

Julian: for your third note, I think that triplet chromatic figure happens in the very opening of the movement in the RH. So it's introduced way earlier..

There are a lot of elements in 3 that come from the 1st movement - like the rhythms from bar 9 (triplets) kind of remind of the build up in the 1st movement, but it's reversed. Btw does anyone else notice a strange similarity to La Valse here? Haha.. Also bar 20 is blatantly out of the first movement - the RH figures. All those chromatic figures remind me of the motif from the 1st mvt. It's pretty cool how in bars 39 and 40 the figure is back. And in the development that figure with the triplets is everywhere again. Also near the end, after the 2nd theme comes back (tempo rubato), the "a tempo" before the presto, it's a slowed down figure but I think still represents the one from the first movement (chords in the opening). And of course, the last bar, classic - the figure again, but this time the RH is stationary.

I love that piece..

I hadn't noticed those thematic links before, Angelina; thanks! It's a very "well-connected" work, and the more one looks, the more one finds unifying and organic features.

By the way, do you think Rachmaninoff knew Mendelssohn's Song without Words Op.30 No.2 in B flat minor, by any chance?

Oh my god.. Definitely worth the research. That's very strange!!

Commenting on the sonatas of Rachmaninoff,
I have ran into two kinds of people concerning Rachmaninoff as a composer. The ones who consider him to be the best composer of all time, and the ones who consider him to be one of the worst. It for the most part seems to be in these extremes. The people I know who love Rachmaninoff, tend to just want to play him.

I feel rather in the middle, some days i love him, other days I am blah. His sonatas are good though in my opinion, I have heard good performances of both on recordings. The first is a bit hard to swallow, I do not mean that in a bad way, It is a large, epic, and complicated work. Though prefer it to his second sonata.

Is there sonatas by other composers I would rather play? Well the answer is yes, I find some other sonatas of other romantic composers such as Brahms, Schumann, Mendelssohn, and Chopin to stimulate me more, but it does not change my opinion that the two sonatas from Rachmaninoff are good.

One cannot be too careful.

There is no fun in assuming ironic!