I thought the point of this thread would be simply to provide support among those of us learning without direct support from teachers. We're all seeking indirect support--from each other, from YouTube, books, DVD, concerts, etc. Would it be better to have a good teacher? Yes, of course. But they cost money some of us don't have.

Let's try working from where we are: we're self-learners who love what we're learning, and want to improve as best we can in the most efficient and painless way possible.

Perhaps then , we can think about what are important things for people starting on the journey of self teaching to know.

Links to sites that explain posture and correct placement of hands.
Theory sites.
Tips on how to practice, how to fix mistakes.

How do we organise it so the info doesn't get lost in chat about the merits of teaching via self taught ?

This seemed like such a good idea at the start, but it seems that another derailment was immediately and inevitably in progress - you should have posted a sign: NO TEACHERS ALLOWED!

Don't you teachers have a whole damn Forum of your own? So, unless you have something positive and helpful to say about self-teaching... We've heard all the negative stuff before in any number of other threads... Apparently some of you don't get it, or just can't help yourself & you're failing to honor and respect the OP's original intention for this thread..

JF

Like I've said, we've sworn an oath!

Good post, JF

Ejay rolls up a big soft fluffy pillow and bashes Keyboardklutz over the head.

I must admit I read and have posted in the teachers thread, perhaps a better request would be no teachers or indeed anyone criticising the decision to self teach. I am happy and grateful for any supportive tips and critique from the teachers here.

We do, and several self-taught non-teachers post there, and we let them and they are not censored.

I will be honest and say I have posted a lot in this thread (just can't help it) - but then who is forced to read them? I think John is right many posters would love a thread excluding teachers (I don't agree with them though).

I would say teachers would probably be welcome to post as long as they are supportive and not disparaging one's reasons to self teach.

I think TLT said it best - "there is no teaching, only learning." We're all self-taught. And one of the resources that can be enormously helpful is a good teacher.

Question:

What exactly are the criteria for "Self-Taught" on this thread?

* Is it only for those who never had a teacher?

* Or how about those who had a teacher, but now self-teach?

* Or those who currently have a teacher, but augment the lessons by self-teaching themselves a different style of music?

I'm in the second category, too. Two teachers when I was a teenager. Neither was very good, unfortunately.

I don't think anyone should feel inhibited about participating. There are so many knowledgeable people posting on all the forums, and I want to learn from them.

By the way, I seem to recall reading that Alfred Brendel was self-taught for the most part. He turned out OK.

Actually, he had numerous teachers up to the age of 16, including studies at a Conservatory, then as an adult some master classes.

This quote is from his biography at his official website:



He likes to call himself "Self-Taught", but that sounds like spin to me, because he did have piano teachers, one of which was a star student of Liszt.

Ah Klutz, you made me laugh....I understand JF's point, but must admit I enjoy the posts here from teachers.

To Rocket's point, I don't remember if you were around, but a while back the teachers had a huge thread on "teacher's only" .. I took it to heart and rarely post or visit anymore ( unless I get a note to check something out, like the "worst article" thread).

Everyone is welcome says me....

I remember that conversation, and recall that the consensus was that anyone can post on the teachers forum, not just teachers.

Moving forward, I would like to share what has been perhaps the most helpful thing for me in my self-teaching career: making as recording of myself and playing it back - listening critically. It's painful at times - those times when I don't sound very good. But it has always been most worthwhile.

For this purpose I have a zoom digital recorder, which I love.

It's also a good self-motivational feature - to make recordings as a record of my progress. Without a teacher, this is all I have to tell myself I'm getting better.

I'll go back and look (when I get time...)but I remember quite a few wanted an area for themselves. Some, like this thread, did not care, but the feeling I have is my posting will be tolerated but not welcome...

And, I have no problem with that. It is the Teachers Forum after all.

I will go back and check my memory.

To a certain extent where we are born and who our parents are has already set many of us up to never reach our "full potential" in many areas of life. Its just the way things are.

In KK's defence most of what he's posted here so far has actually been reasonably supportive. He's admitted most people even with a teacher are likely to develop at least some nad habits at some point.

Now on to the origional purpose of the thread.
I've found some of Lypur's lessons on youtube to be helpful, although I haven't watched any lately. There's even one about setting realistic goals as a self-learner.

There's a note reading game/app on facebook I used for a while, somewhat helpful as a drill for recognizing individual notes quickly.

Right now I'm using a tutorial from "pianojohn113" on youtube to help me learn a Beatles song. I'm using music which he seems to be really close to so even the few notes that may be different I don't consider an issue. His explaination of the tempo/dynamics of the song so far heve been very helpful. I can post links to any of these later if someone would like me too, but I don't have time right now.

In classical music the grading system is helpful for the self learner to figure out which pieces may be within their reach, but there's nothing like this for non-classical. With all the different arrangements available it would be impossible but it would be helpful to maybe list songs(and which arrangement we used if we used music) and how hard or easy we found them to be.

I tried to watch Lypur's videos, but I can't hear a word he is saying, its so quiet.

On the violin front - in various forums I've been strongly advised to a) always hold the violin in front of you b) always hold the violin to the side of you.

Will that do as my positive contribution?

Yes, there is, it's called Rockschool.

http://www.rockschool.co.uk/

I haven't used any of the piano material, though I'm told it's solid, but not easy to work through the higher levels without a teacher. For jazz specifically, ABRSM have a jazz section:

http://www.abrsm.org/publishing/jazz

I don't honestly think real jazzers think much of it, but for classical-literate folks, it's fairly accessible.

I think I should point out that our very own Pete the Bean has a site and several publications (http://www.poppianopro.com/ )
some of which is accessible to beginning players. Covers popular piano, blues, improvising, lead sheet reading, etc. Peter is very generous with help here on the forum for anyone wanting help with his material, or generally.

It does sound a bit like spin. Anyone here study Brendel in any great depth? But...I wouldn't be surprised if it's the case that Brendel himself considers himself self-taught.
Just because you attend class doesn't mean the credit goes to the teacher. If you sleep in class, does that mean the teacher deserves credit? Hardly.
I find it far-fetched to believe he did not benefit from others. It's one thing if it's all theory, and quite another if there is a physical component. Great pitchers need a pitching coach, great surgeons need an attending physician, and so on. (right? or wrong?)

What strikes me as eminently profitable for the self-learners would be a list of bad habits. After all, that's the real issue right?

Music teacher: "you will cripple your potential"
Self-learner: "why?"
Music teacher: "bad habits that will haunt you when you arrive at a certain proficiency."
Self-learner: "which ones?"

Bad habits is certainly one of the issues here. How about:

1. Playing the whole piece over and over instead of working on the hard bits?

2. Relying too much on the metronome? Or being addicted to "Play. Increase tempo one click. Play. Increase tempo one click. . . "?

3. Jumping around from piece to piece without really polishing any?

4. Doggedly sticking to one piece instead of working on several?

Yes, exactly.

Like I said - we've heard all the arguements against self-teaching a hundred and one times - a few are sound and logical but many are just plain BS - either way this isn't the place for them - and either way we continue to self-teach - so if you don't have anything helpful to say with respect to that...

JF

Actually, that has been covered in these threads here and there.

Here is a list of what I have seen with self-taught students as a teacher:

1. Poor body posture at the piano, which includes sitting too far back, or too close, seat too high/ too low, slumping, not sitting centered, seat not parallel to the keyboard.

2. Poor hand/arm posture, often with wrists too low, so the tendons that move the fingers must travel in a curved arc thru the wrist tunnel, which can cause serious physical damage.

Number #1 and #2 are hard to see while your thinking and attention is consumed by trying to play, read the music, etc. Another set of knowledgable eyes is invaluable, like a golf pro observing you swing the golf club.

3. No metronome usage, or counting, so tempo is unregulated. This is a hard one to incorporate later on, which is why many teachers instill it from the first lesson. Few people like the constraints of the metronome, and feel that since they can play without it, why suffer? Tempo problems are very common.

4. Little or no technique training, so finger independence is poor, and tension is high. This is very hard to overcome after muscle memory habits are formed.

5. Poor sight reading, especially the Bass clef.

6. Lack of knowledge as to how to practice efficiently. Playing a piece over and over is not practicing. I spend a great deal of time teaching people how to practice effectively.

7. Lack of knowledge of fingering, and the need to establish from the onset one system of fingering for each piece, phrase, etc.

8. Lack of knowledge of basic Theory.

9. No one knowledgeable about your playing to talk to, to receive encouragement from, etc.

10. Playing a piece unmusically. When students do that, I play the piece or the section for them, and ask them to identify the difference. Most of the time, they hear the difference, can play it, and it is a revelation to them that permanently improves their playing. Invaluable.

Which ones are BS?

I have in total learned four instruments do a degree of competence. Two I had years of lessons. Two I am self-taught. I have never had a bad habit. Sure, I've had many times where I've gone down a route, to discover I need to take a step back and start again. I've found a more ergonomic way of doing something. I've considered all of this a part of the learning curve. I've moved on and got better.

I really wasn't aware of bad habits in music until I joined this forum.

And I do truly feel there is an element of teacher needing to justify their value by finding bad habits in students that begin with them - whether previously self-taught or badly taught.

It seems to me that this thread was about support for those who are actively self-teaching for whatever reason. Perhaps a separate thread could be made for those who wish to discuss the relative merits of having a teacher?

Amazing!

+1