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Chris, I've been doing your exercises every day, and will add this one in too. Question - do you touch-type? Who here touch-types (that is, types without looking at the keys)?

That's what we're trying to do is change your opinion. It cannot sound straight with strong accents. The first one sounds like the piano player (correct version) playing Donna Lee. The second was a more legato version of the jazz beginner video.

The first one had more noticeable accents.

We're trying to break you off the idea that the swing comes from unneven eights. That's secondary. It may or may not be unneven. But it needs to feel upside down like swing. The first one felt upside down. Like you're going against the flow. And the strong accents do that.

Read what Dave and I were discussing. Every beginner thinks unneven eights are needed to swing. It is better to practice straight and focus on accents. Real unevenness is very slight. Absolutely nowhere near triplet feel. This is why it is easier to learn from straight eighths. You're closer there.

TLT, as you said earlier, you are not able to hear stuff from those videos I'm posting. BTW on Charlie Parker, all I wanted you to listen to is the first phrase. It's something you already know how to do. You will not be able to swing until you can "hear" it.

I would really highly recommend that you listen to those over and over. Those three videos of Donna Lee. Just listen to the first phrase. Loop only on that since you know what a downbeat is and an upbeat. And make sure you see the difference between the wrong way and the right way. No you will not be able to identify the swing ratio (because the loudness of the accent will confuse your ears) but you will look for short notes. In the correct version(s). Everything is completely legato with NO short notes of any sort.

After you've learned this at some point, you will then realize that Version 1 was correct. In the meantime, in the absence of aural verification, simply continue to play like version 1 and someday it will make sense

Ah - so it's a question of vocabulary. That makes it different.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong. In jazz, accents are *always* on offbeats. (Like I did in both recordings).
Sometimes quavers are even in time, sometimes they are uneven.

So, if swing doesn't come from uneven quavers, then I have two questions. First, what word do you use to distinbuish uneven quavers from even ones? Second, what's the point of describing correct accent use as swing, and what would 'unswung' jazz sound like?

'Swing' in the glossary of apassion4jazz (language warning):

Swing: (1) The style of the 30s, when the big band was the dominant form of Jazz. The style implies certain types of harmony (use of added 6ths rather than 7ths in major and minor chords, of un-embellished diminished chords, frequent use of the augmented 5th and little use of the augmented 11th, etc.) and a rhythmic organization that states the beat explicitly, puts more weight on 1 and 3 and tends to obey the bar-line phrasing. (2) A rhythmic manner, unique to Jazz, in which the first of a pair of written 8th notes is played longer than the second, even twice as long, while the second tends to receive a slight accent, though the distribution of accents is irregular and syncopated. (The degree of this effect depends on the overall tempo, and is modified by the requirements of expression and phrasing.) (3) As a direction in a chart, played with a swing feel, as opposed to latin. (4) A mysterious, unexplainable quality in any music, but especially Jazz, which makes one 'feel that [censored] all up in your body' (Miles Davis).

TLT, about the only definition I would put much credence to is #4.

In practice, swing is all over the place. So it would be hard to put an acceptable definition. For every definition you give, I can give an example to undefine it. Based on those descriptions, Chick Corea, a very famous jazzer, doesn't swing. Neither would Brad Mehldau, two Jazz Grammy winner/nominee this year (respectively). Anyone, and I mean anyone playing fast is playing straight. So just there, those definitions fail completely.

I've said this before (long ago). Swing is about control of time and position in the beat. It can be done with straight 8ths and uneven 8ths.

Look at this:

Straight (played at the top of the beat)
(++++++++++)(----------)(++++++++++)(----------)(++++++++++)(----------)
Straight but swinging (laid back)
(--++++++++)(++--------)(--++++++++)(++--------)(--+++++++++)(++--------)

As you get more advanced. You can play with this and I can tell you how. In the meantime just erase the preconceived notions in your head and concentrate on those accents.

Between posters here like Chris, Dave, Etcetera and myself, I don't think you'd find disagreement between us.

You've given me examples of what you think Keith Jarrett is playing but it is not correct. You're not hearing it correctly. If you have the software "Transcribe", you can slow music down and hear things in slow motion.

TLT, According to those definitions, this guy swings...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgUv7CItjgw&feature=related

yes i do. touch type that is.
but, being dyslectic makes for interesting word combinations - i however, thank on a daily basis whomever invented spell-checkers. having one in my browser (Firefox) is a godsend. and yes, being dyslectic makes for interesting improvisation too.

Quiz/Ear Training: Wynton Kelly - Does he swing?
Playing Softly As in the Morning Sunrise

Listen to just eighth notes if you want...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bud9AZ7xBM

a. Does he Swing?
b. How is he playing his Eighths?

Chris, finally getting a degree? That's fantastic. I didn't even know you're working on that, although you've implied some academic connection a few times. Congratulations!

I toyed with the idea too (for no particular purpose but fun). My teacher said I would be accepted in the Jazz program if I applied. That felt good enough as it is. Since the teacher is the same (him), I guess it would make no difference. I'm too old for a degree to have any impact

I like your exercise BTW. Something good to do in the dark...

One important factor in learning jazz is to listen. A lot.
Jazz has to come from within.

And one needs a touch stone, the player we are trying to emulate, to imitate.
Put on the album that excites you the most, and sing with it, scat sing; do be do be do be doo. And then listen again; a lot. Play the piano together with your favourite musician, they won't fire you if you play a bum note. Try to imitate a note, two notes, three notes hey a whole line!
I have two pianists that I listen to a lot (actually its three), and I mean A LOT! Between them, they have it all. Touch, swing, taste, chops, surprise . . .

They are my point of reference; their playing inspires me everyday as I try to pry the secrets from their recordings, and the more I try to emulate, the more I'm starting to hear my own voice appear - so that I'm actually starting to listen more to myself. Whatever . . . my rambling is all about passion; passion for music, passion for jazz, passion for getting in there and just . . 'getting it'.
The secret is in there. Inside of you.
Listen, and listen a lot.

Hi Jazzwee -

"Words mean what I want them to mean - and you should see them coming at the end of the week to get paid" - that's Lewis Carroll, I think.

The point is, we can give 'swing' any meaning we want, as long as we're clear about it. I'll still be happy if you can answer the two questions above.

Like I say, I'm happy to work with accents. While I was recording today, I put an accent on a downbeat by mistake. I heard it - it sounded wrong. I recorded again - and that's the one you heard.

I've heard of Transcribe and I'm sure its good. It also costs money.

I'm a bit of a sceptic when it comes to technology. Did Bill Evan learn to play by putting his favourite recordings through wave analysis, or slowing them down with Transcribe? I believe these things may be useful. But I can't accept that they're necessary.

I actually have a theory on this, which I'll tell you about, but it's really not important if you disagree. You take something called 'swing', you put it through wave analysis and discover that the 'swing ratio' is not infact 67:33, but 56:44 or whatever. And you discover that this ratio alters depending on the performer, the speed they play at, the instrument, etc. And it's all very interesting. But it's easy for the mind to get quite fixated on this thing that can be measured so accurately. It's easy to get focussed on this one thing - and not see the bigger picture (all the other elements that make up that swing).

Interesting discussion!

The guy in the youtube clip - there are several problems there, of rhythm, technique and articulation.

I think I already answered this but just so it's clear.

1. Yes.




1. If you're trying to back me into a definition of swing then it's not going to work It's feeling of being off balance an can be created by a bunch of techniques that deal with position of the beat and focus on upbeats. It may or may not have uneven eighths.

2. No swing was defined in the Anti-Swing Article.
a. Triplet Feel does not swing.
b. Completely Straight with no accents does not swing.

Yes I am. Thanks. At the bright age of 54 I'm finally attending college; The Royal College of Music sounds great doesn't it?!?!?

One reason is that I enjoy teaching, and without a college degree . . . well, thanks to the new minister of education in this country all of us that does not have a teaching degree are being thrown out of the education system. I've been teaching for many years at both upper-secondary as well as college level mainly thanks to my extensive work experience, but now that is not valid any more - to the sorrow of many students and schools.
But I'm eternally grateful to the school system here, college, as well as University is free of charge (well, books and such like is not free, but the classes) that's why there's such stringent entrance exams to art, music, film college. Primary instrument, second instrument, aural exam, ensemble, composition, theory, personal interview, etc etc. Blimey, I even had to learn a couple of songs AND sing them!


Well Jazzwee, none of us is too old.
Learning is a life-long experience I believe.

Great that you enjoy the exercise. It'll help with the sight-reading too.

Using "Transcribe" is not about Wave Analysis. It is a software that is used to slow down a phrase and then you can loop it. Back in the old days, Jazzers did this by slowing down a tape player or slowing down the turntable. So it's not technology for technology's sake. You don't need to buy it. I'm just saying if you're really curious about the differences between what we hear and what you hear, that can really put it to a test.

Part of the problem for any of us is learning how to 'Hear'. I could probably be able to listen to a fast line at 250bpm and pick out most of the notes. To a beginner, that speed might be 80bpm. This is part of what happens in jazz. That's why Chris talks about listening.

We've all done our dues and we can listen to Charlie Parker and tell if he's playing straight or not. It takes awhile. I had a little chuckle when you said Charlie Parker had "no soul" This is the guy that invented Bebop

But I understand where you're coming from. I have stayed away from a guy named Art Tatum because his playing is way too fast. I probably can get it now but I still stay away. It was beyond my comprehension. Even my tastes have changed as I understood what I was hearing. Every couple of years I migrate to something faster.

Now on swing ratios: I don't disagree at all. That was my entire point. Eighth ratios are all over the place but in itself, it doesn't create the swing. The accents do and the position against the beat.

Chris, haha! You were 'forced' to get a degree Well as long as it's free, it couldn't have hurt your playing could it?

No like you, I'm not too old to get a degree but I don't need it to make a living. I'm not sure it's much cheaper studying privately though So at least I'm going through the same paces, albeit with an absence of 'exams', on my schedule.

But you didn't mention swing...?

LOL!

Jazzwee - I'm not ignoring you, just now I realise some of your posts I never read because we posted at the same time! I think by now we basically understand each other.

I was so stoked today. Had a lesson and I was comfortably playing ATTYA at 210bpm. Teacher said "Man, you've been woodshedding!". He said my playing is improving geometrically and I was using more advanced concepts in soloing. He made a surprising comment when he lumped me together with his "other talented students". Wow. That just made my day.

Maybe it's just that after a certain time all the things learned in the past start to kick in. I'll officially be at the 5 year mark come November. So just a little more than a month away. I set a goal for myself to be competent at the 5 year mark (or 5000 hours). I'm not there yet. But I think I'm only at 4000 hours so maybe I have to extend my goal by another year.

hey jazzwee,

yeah man, good for you! making that kind of progress is great!

what your teacher said has got to make you feel pretty good!