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#1471499 - 07/10/10 12:34 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: jeffalthouse]
currawong Offline
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Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: jeffalthouse
Recently I had a piano ped class while going for my Masters, the professor was French. He was of the European fixed "DO" system. In general he felt that who ever invented the mobile DO was an idiot.

Upon much thought, there is no advantage to a mobile DO over a fixed one....
There are those here who might agree with you. But also many (like me) who don't. If you can't see any advantage at all in a movable do system of teaching and internalising scale degrees, then I suggest you haven't looked into it closely enough. And did your French professor dismiss Kodaly as an idiot too?

Welcome, by the way! smile
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#1471500 - 07/10/10 12:37 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: currawong]
currawong Offline
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Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
I should just add that I think there is a place for both a fixed and movable system. But NOT used together, with the same terminology.
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#1471503 - 07/10/10 12:39 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: currawong]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5593
Loc: Orange County, CA
...and kids are confused...
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#1471506 - 07/10/10 12:46 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: AZNpiano]
currawong Offline
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Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
Actually it drives me crazy that the two systems exist with the same terminology. I won't go so far as to call anyone an idiot (though John Hullah certainly confused things in England), but each individual idea is great! Fixed do - singable note names; movable do - singable scale degrees. What more could you want? Different terminology for both systems, that's what.
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#1471520 - 07/10/10 01:24 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: currawong]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: jeffalthouse
Recently I had a piano ped class while going for my Masters, the professor was French. He was of the European fixed "DO" system. In general he felt that who ever invented the mobile DO was an idiot.

Upon much thought, there is no advantage to a mobile DO over a fixed one....
I'm sure many professors end up with their own private idiot hitlist, and it's certainly interesting to have an insight into your French professor's revelation of who makes it onto his.

What were his views about methods of teaching scale degree/function? I suspect he had none, and if this is confirmed I may have to start compiling my own list of idiots.

Meantime, what are your own views?

_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1471522 - 07/10/10 01:32 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Canonie Offline
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Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Well he might have just sung like this
1 2 3 1/1 2 3 1/3 4 5 . /3 4 5 . / and so on.

But in French of course.

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#1471527 - 07/10/10 02:02 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: Canonie
Well he might have just sung like this
1 2 3 1/1 2 3 1/3 4 5 . /3 4 5 . / and so on.

But in French of course.
you have made me laugh SOOOO hard!!!!

un-deux-trois-merde, huh?!
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1471537 - 07/10/10 02:24 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Canonie Offline
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Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
glad to give you a giggle.

...but you got the song right? So, what is it?

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#1471550 - 07/10/10 03:12 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: jeffalthouse]
landorrano Offline
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Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: jeffalthouse

Upon much thought, there is no advantage to a mobile DO over a fixed one....


It seems to me that moveable-do has reason-to-be only as a complement to the A-B-C nomenclature system which is, in itself, inadequate insofar as it doesn't lend itself to solfège-type exercise.

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#1471551 - 07/10/10 03:15 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: currawong]
landorrano Offline
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Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: currawong
And did your French professor dismiss Kodaly as an idiot too?


Why? What was Kodaly's approach?

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#1471553 - 07/10/10 03:22 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
currawong Offline
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Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: landorrano
It seems to me that moveable-do has reason-to-be only as a complement to the A-B-C nomenclature system which is, in itself, inadequate insofar as it doesn't lend itself to solfège-type exercise.
I agree that movable do works best as a complement to a different note-naming system (ABC, though could be anything - except do-re-mi smile ). I also agree that letter names are not as singable as do-re-mi, so to some extent they are inadequate for vocalising pitch. But if you are in a fixed-do world and want to vocalise scale degrees rather than absolute pitch you have a similar problem - that of finding a singable system of syllables. Numbers are ok I guess - except for se-ven. smile
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#1471555 - 07/10/10 03:26 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
currawong Offline
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Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: currawong
And did your French professor dismiss Kodaly as an idiot too?
Why? What was Kodaly's approach?
Kodaly used movable do solfa in his approach to music education with young children in Hungary.
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Du holde Kunst...

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#1471556 - 07/10/10 03:27 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
landorrano Offline
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Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne

What were his views about methods of teaching scale degree/function? I suspect he had none,



I suspect that his view was that scale degrees are included in solfège, which is indeed the case.


Originally Posted By: Canonie
Well he might have just sung like this
1 2 3 1/1 2 3 1/3 4 5 . /3 4 5 . / and so on.

But in French of course.


But it is in French! It's you who have to translate into English ...

... or into proper Ozzish:

Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne


un-deux-trois-merde, huh?!

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#1471557 - 07/10/10 03:30 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: currawong]
currawong Offline
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Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
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#1471558 - 07/10/10 03:34 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Canonie Offline
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Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
It's Frere Jacque - is what I meant wink My point being that I can "see" the sounds that this scale degree pattern makes. But how do I give this knowledge well to a student? And would I with the awkwardness of singing "flatsix" on an eighth note?

This problem bothers me quite a lot. I have not resolved it within my teaching method. One is tempted to go out on a limb and develop a completely unique system just for me, but there are big drawbacks to this of course.

Well Elissa, I hope you will let us know how you find those new books you ordered.
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
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#1471561 - 07/10/10 03:50 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
landorrano Offline
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Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Canonie
It's Frere Jacque

I'd got it, Frère Jacques.

It would be, in key of do
do ré mi do
do ré mi do
mi fa sol .
mi fa sol .

In key of do sharp
do ré mi do
do ré mi do
mi fa sol .
mi fa sol .

In key of fa sharp
fa sol la fa
fa sol la fa
la si do .
la si do .


Edited by landorrano (07/10/10 03:52 AM)

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#1471562 - 07/10/10 04:05 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: currawong]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: currawong
But if you are in a fixed-do world and want to vocalise scale degrees rather than absolute pitch you have a similar problem - that of finding a singable system of syllables. Numbers are ok I guess - except for se-ven. smile


What interest is there to have a different name for scale degrees when singing, different from regular solfège practice?

I would suppose that if there is a use alongside of do-ré-mi solfège than it already exists. There may be something. I am not enough in the milieu of solfège pedagogy to know everything that goes on.

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#1471565 - 07/10/10 04:17 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Studio Joe Offline
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Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
It seems to that movable do is more useful for learning relative pitch.

Whereas fixed do might be better for training absolute pitch.
_________________________
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#1471591 - 07/10/10 07:58 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Studio Joe]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Studio Joe
It seems to that movable do is more useful for learning relative pitch.





In a situation, a country where the notes are named a-b-c ... OK.

But if you are starting from do-ré-mi ... , I don't see what advantage there might be to have a supplementary system that rests upon the degrees of scales.

We simply say, or sing :

"do ré mi fa sol la si do" for the scale of do major ( key of c major ), and the interval between mi and fa is a half-tone ...

and then

"ré mi fa sol la si do ré" for the scale of ré major ( d major ), where the interval mi-fa is a whole-tone. This is different from a modulation within the key of do, where you would also sing "ré mi fa sol la si do ré" but where the interval mi-fa remains a half-tone.

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#1471592 - 07/10/10 08:05 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
It's not even about relative pitch, it's about function.

keystring raises the interesting point that using the major scale as a default privileges the major modes above other pitch patterns, but I think in Western music (historically, in an art sense, in a folk sense) has this privilege inbuilt, and this [major modes as default] is therefore a natural fit for learning to play an instrument from the Western musical tradition.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1471639 - 07/10/10 11:04 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11851
Loc: Canada
I puzzled over this for a while:
Quote:
MomofB - re number notation, is a minor third indicated with 3- or is there no indication of major or minor in the numbers.

Degrees are individual notes which are also the nth note of a scale. An individual note cannot be major or minor since that involves an interval between two notes, or a particular kind of three-note chord (again intervals). So I wondered.

Then I remembered the area that I am still weak in which is second nature to any advanced pianist: the quality of degree chords. The third degree chord (mediant) of a major scale is minor. The fourth degree chord is major, etc. This would be in your bones. I imagine that you cannot think of 3 (mi) without immediately hearing the minor quality of iii (chord). Am I on track?

Before I learned conventional things, I might hear and write down:
mi re do do re do ti do re mi re -- re ti so - so so - so mi re do. Translation:
3 2 1 1 2 1 7 1 2 3 2 -- 2 7 5 - 5 5 - 5 3 2 1
Song: Ein Vogelfaenger bin ich ja - Pappageno of Magic Flute.
The solfege, and translation to degree notes, are instant.

I would say that it was not so much taught, as it was internalized, when I was a child. The knowledge is there for you and you don't even know it.

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#1471650 - 07/10/10 11:27 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: keystring]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Originally Posted By: keystring
I puzzled over this for a while:
Quote:
MomofB - re number notation, is a minor third indicated with 3- or is there no indication of major or minor in the numbers.


3- would indicate the third scale degree lowered by 1/2 step. (minor 3rd)

If you are talking about chord charts, 3- would be a minor chord built on the root of the 3rd scale degree. eg. Eminor in the key of C.


Edited by Studio Joe (07/10/10 11:38 AM)
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#1471651 - 07/10/10 11:33 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Studio Joe]
Amosquito Offline
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Registered: 03/02/10
Posts: 39
Loc: Australia
Can I just say that as a singer/pianist, fixed Do makes no sense to me at ALL and I don't understand why anyone would use it as a substitution for movable Do/scale degrees and/or note names.
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#1471696 - 07/10/10 01:21 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Studio Joe]
keystring Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
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Quote:
3- would indicate the third scale degree lowered by 1/2 step. (minor 3rd)


Then I suspect, not for the first time, that apples and oranges are being mixed. Those whose first language is notes, pitch names, etc., are translating movable do into something they understand. The third scale degree is not major, or minor, or anything, even if this is referring to a minor scale. C D Eb F G Ab B(nat - maybe - or flat) C. Eb is a minor third from C, true. It is not a minor third from D, or from F. The minor third idea stems from notes and notation, where we remember these kinds of things. It is important, because the sense of the particular aspect of music that m.d.solfege imparts won't be there. In that case why not just say 1,2,3 and be done with it? It does not even make sense that it is written out. It belongs to an oral tradition, and ear training.

What movable do gives is also a sense of function. So is not only the 5th degree or a P5 up from the tonic, it is also the dominant and has that dominant feeling to it.

For minor scales we called the tonic La. It is a rather modal mentality. If I have to call the tonic of a minor scale Do as in the modern system, then I also have to start thinking in pitches - it becomes artificial and difficult.

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#1471698 - 07/10/10 01:24 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Amosquito]
landorrano Offline
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Registered: 02/26/06
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Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Amosquito
I don't understand why anyone would use it as a substitution for movable Do/scale degrees and/or note names.


No one uses fixed-do as a substitution for movable-do and/or note names.

It is the other way around: movable-do solfège is used as a substitution for fixed-do solfège, in countries where the note names are a-b-c.

Originally Posted By: Amosquito
Can I just say that as a singer/pianist, fixed Do makes no sense to me at ALL


Of course you can say that, however I believe that your formulation is mistaken. It is not true that as a pianist or a singer that fixed-do makes no sense to you. It makes no sense to you because for you the notes are named a-b-c ... and not do-ré-mi ...

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#1471785 - 07/10/10 04:11 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
It's not even about relative pitch, it's about function.

keystring raises the interesting point that using the major scale as a default privileges the major modes above other pitch patterns, but I think in Western music (historically, in an art sense, in a folk sense) has this privilege inbuilt, and this [major modes as default] is therefore a natural fit for learning to play an instrument from the Western musical tradition.


Major and natural minor in the way I learned it, actually. The tonic of natural minor was La and it was a decidedly modal way of thinking. And I was also thinking about function as you pointed out.

I was thinking, among others, of the fact that your music reflects what young people hear these days, namely music that is not in major or minor keys. If the music is pure modal then solfege fits 100%. Dorian is Re to Re, Phrygian is (Mi to Mi?). But others?

If it is ok to go off on a tangent, I have also thought about music theory when we get to the writing stage - ever since this idea of modern music using other scales came up. As follows:

I learned to write major and minor scales first, and we got blues, pentatonic, octatonic, whole tone afterward, as well as the church modes. For the first, you end up with no key signatures and you skip note names and do awkward things. Our staff system was designed at the time of common practice and that becomes clear.

I've been of two minds. First I felt that it was important for me to have the major and minor scales and how they work solid, since key signatures and such were actualy designed for them. Then it is possible to deal with the other scales. But they will always seem other and foreign. But second, what if this is just familiarity? When you begin with the other scales where you actually have to think about the notes and intervals, does that give a flexibility that would make us see major/minor scales differently when we get to them? And does this begin with ear?

I don't know if this makes sense or even if it is proper to post it in this thread.

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#1471791 - 07/10/10 04:18 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Studio Joe Offline
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Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Keystring, I agree my first sentence wasn't well thought out.

My second statement (which you didn't mention) however I stand by. It is from the Nashville numbering system in which Arabic numbers are used to indicate the root of the chord, and the minus sign qualifies the chord as minor.
_________________________
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#1471817 - 07/10/10 04:45 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Studio Joe]
keystring Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
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I'm sure that that is how it's done, Joe. I don't know how unique my experience is. It dates back to around 1962 or 63 when I was about 8 years old. I did understand what you were referring to and have seen it since joining PW. I did not refer to the chord chart since I was not talking about chords. I've not heard about the Nashville numbering system,though the + - signs are things I've seen in the old RCM theory rudiments book and Horwood, and Arabic numerals are used for root names, instead of ^1, ^2 etc. (hat goes on the number). Perhaps it's the same?

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#1472081 - 07/11/10 12:56 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Amosquito Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/10
Posts: 39
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: Amosquito
I don't understand why anyone would use it as a substitution for movable Do/scale degrees and/or note names.


No one uses fixed-do as a substitution for movable-do and/or note names.

It is the other way around: movable-do solfège is used as a substitution for fixed-do solfège, in countries where the note names are a-b-c.

Originally Posted By: Amosquito
Can I just say that as a singer/pianist, fixed Do makes no sense to me at ALL


Of course you can say that, however I believe that your formulation is mistaken. It is not true that as a pianist or a singer that fixed-do makes no sense to you. It makes no sense to you because for you the notes are named a-b-c ... and not do-ré-mi ...



No, it makes no sense to me because as a singer, I'm so entrenched in movable Do.
_________________________
Amos

Facilitator of learning
Lover of pianos and singing
Wannabe singer/songwriter

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#1472105 - 07/11/10 01:59 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Amosquito]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
OK, folks, let's make this simple.

Movable do is about pitches in relationship to each other. It is primarily a function of the ear. In movable do, the pitches relate to each other in a consistent way, no matter where do starts.

Fixed do is more about reading. It fixes a pitch on the staff in a specific place.

I find that people who are strong aural learners prefer movable do, and people who are strong visual learners seem to prefer fixed do. I've also encountered a stronger fixed do preference among people that play single-line instruments.

If properly taught, they can both be used. However, if you are learning this skill as an adult, it is much harder to learn both. Children seem to find it simpler.
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