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#1472630 - 07/11/10 11:50 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
dumdumdiddle Offline
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Quote:
- ToBeYourFiddle

Ha, ha, you caught on! wink
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#1472660 - 07/12/10 01:01 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: dumdumdiddle]
Canonie Offline
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Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: dumdumdiddle
Quote:
- ToBeYourFiddle

Ha, ha, you caught on! wink

Yeh. Like ages ago
But you dropped a broad hint recently which confirmed it.
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1472688 - 07/12/10 02:47 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: dumdumdiddle]
landorrano Offline
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Originally Posted By: dumdumdiddle
Key of F is when we have the ti-flat (B-flat) and I sing it as a 'ti'


It seems that this Harmony Road method follows solfège practise quite exactly, so I rest baffled as to why in this method they use "ti" in place of "si".

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#1472691 - 07/12/10 03:03 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Canonie Offline
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Registered: 10/04/09
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Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: dumdumdiddle
Key of F is when we have the ti-flat (B-flat) and I sing it as a 'ti'


It seems that this Harmony Road method follows solfège practise quite exactly, so I rest baffled as to why in this method they use "ti" in place of "si".

to have as a drink with jam and bread perhaps? Oooo I might just pop the kettle on.

But seriously, thank you for confirming that harmony road is in line with your own experience as I had been wondering. I (think I) understand how this works now.

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#1472695 - 07/12/10 03:21 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
landorrano Offline
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Originally Posted By: Canonie

to have as a drink with jam and bread perhaps? Oooo I might just pop the kettle on.


You couldn't resist, could you?

Hey, Canonie, nice to see you, it had been a while, hadn't it.

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#1472697 - 07/12/10 03:29 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
landorrano Offline
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The practise in solfège of pronouncing "do", whether the note be natural, sharp or flat, is a reflection of the theorhetical structure of music.

Music rests on keys, on modulations between one key and another, on modes within a key. A key is based on seven notes; exactly one do, one ré, one mi etc. And so in solfège you always have one do, one ré, one mi.

Solfège exercise lays a basis for internalizing this underlying structure, the intervals that make up a scale, the tonic, the dominant, the sensible, etc.

Solfège is a singing exercise, but it is not aimed at sucessfully singing the right tone at the right moment. It is aimed at developing the faculty of reading and writing music, taking reading in the sense of looking at a written score and understanding musically what it "says", as you understand the meaning of a written text in literature; taking writing in the sense of composing or arranging. Solfège is a quite sophisticated pedagogic technique, aimed at a philosophical, theorhetical mastery of music based on a profoundly assimilated practise.

By solfège I mean fixed-do solfège. Moveable-do solfège appears a pragmatic activity, aimed at permitting to sing in a choir.

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#1472701 - 07/12/10 03:35 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Canonie Offline
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Loc: Australia
Thank you yes it had been months with only bit of lurking.

I was busy passing my first piano exam, and doing my very first professional (= paid) piano jobs. Right now I'm on holidays practising new rep and interspersing this with PW time, very pleasant.

Back to topic. Since Guido de Arezzo only named up to La, it's not so surprising that different tis and sis have emerged. Personally I like ti because no consonant is repeated, and sibilants are not as nice to sing. But a reason to choose si could be that ti is already used for 1/8 note in rhythm solfege ( ta ta titi titi ...)
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#1472732 - 07/12/10 05:53 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
Syboor Offline
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Posts: 56
Loc: Amsterdam
In fixed do, you never pronounce flats and sharps? What about flats and sharps that deviate from the key signature? Is there no way to pronounce them?

In moveable do, the flats and sharps that are part of the key signature are also never pronounced. At least not in major scales, and not in minor scales when using the la-based minor system. But all "non-diatonic" flats and sharps are pronounced. So in movable do, you could sing "fi" instead of "fa", and this note "fi" would trigger the feeling of the secondary dominant V/V (re-fi-la).

I would guess moveable do invented the name "ti" for the leading tone, because "si" means "so-sharp" (part of V/vi in major, and the leading tone in the la-based minor system).



Edited by Syboor (07/12/10 05:54 AM)

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#1472734 - 07/12/10 06:14 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Syboor]
Elissa Milne Offline
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WELL, I actually bumped into John Colwill today (see above) and we enthusiastically discussed his books for the full 4 minutes we had before John's ride to the airport arrived (!) - and it sounds as if his method is really a fixed do of kinds - in the sense of same finger, same note. But it's all about establishing relationships too, so..... I will still await the arrival of the publications with eagerness, but my suspicion is that there really isn't a movable do method per se out there......

On the other hand, in this discussion there's been much talk of singing first - and singing before doing anything else seems like a no-brainer, until you realise that most methods do NOT start with singing first - the singing comes as an accompaniment to the music the student learns in the method, not as a precursor to the playing. It's interesting to me that the connection between solfege (fixed or movable) and singing does not seem to be mirrored in other piano methods.....
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#1472737 - 07/12/10 06:55 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Syboor]
Canonie Offline
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Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Syboor
I would guess moveable do invented the name "ti" for the leading tone, because "si" means "so-sharp" (part of V/vi in major, and the leading tone in the la-based minor system).

Of course! Si is in list of syllables a few posts back, and it allows the sharps to all end in letter "i".

Are thinking of creating a young beginners piano method Elissa? I assume P-plate are not method books?
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1472745 - 07/12/10 07:25 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
landorrano Offline
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Originally Posted By: Canonie
Since Guido de Arezzo only named up to La, it's not so surprising that different tis and sis have emerged.


Si comes from Sancte Iohannes, touch it at risk to your afterlife !

I think that ti was introduced with the development of moveable-do solfège for the reason that you give, Canonie. All the more so when you add the ti ta te so si se and all of that jazz. Sol, the resolution, the sun, becomes so, a needle pulling thread.

However to me, ti do seems a tongue-twister

do ré mi fa so la ti do do ti la so fa mi ré do.

Try saying it three times fast.

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#1472755 - 07/12/10 07:41 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Studio Joe Offline
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Originally Posted By: landorrano
How to display the image from this link?




[img] url [/img]
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#1472765 - 07/12/10 08:21 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Studio Joe]
landorrano Offline
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Registered: 02/26/06
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Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Studio Joe
So the do-re-mi names are not fixed pitches, but fixed places on the staff, and the key signature determines their exact pitch?


Yes and no.

You have to distinguish between the system of nomenclature and solfège.

As nomenclature, do-ré-mi are equal and interchangeable with a-b-c. Do, do-bémol, do-dièse, correspond exactly to c, c-flat, c-sharp.

In solfège, every scale is composed of a do, a ré, a mi, a fa, a sol, a la, and a si. One of each, neither more nor less. Any of these degrees may be alterated by a flat or a sharp, or a double-flat or double-sharp, but the defining framework remains intact.

In this sense, yes, the names are fixed places on the staff. You have a staff, you begin at any note and you mark seven, or eight really, succesive lines and interlines, and you have your scale. Fa sol la si do ré mi fa, for example. Except that then it has to correspond to the intervallic pattern of a major or minor scale, which is assured by the signature.

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#1472766 - 07/12/10 08:24 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
landorrano Offline
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#1472775 - 07/12/10 08:50 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
landorrano Offline
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Thinking over Studio Joe's question, it seems to me that the structure of the staff with the clef and the signature is itself clearly a manifestation of the solfège philosophical framework.

Moveable-do solfège is clearly a separate phenomenon from the arch-defining solfège theorhetical framework. Or rather, it is an application of solfège, in the domaine of another musical nomenclature.

Moveable-do solfège is in no way an alternative to or an amelioration of "fixed-do solfège". Moveable-do solfège contains nothing that is not already present in solfège.

Which is not to ridicule moveable-do.

But it seems more and more clear that that it has a reason-to-be only as a complement to the a-b-c nomenclature which found itself on the margin of major theorhetical and pedagogical developments like the modern staff and the circle of fifths ... and solfège.


Edited by landorrano (07/12/10 08:51 AM)

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#1472779 - 07/12/10 08:55 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: Canonie

Are thinking of creating a young beginners piano method Elissa? I assume P-plate are not method books?
I'm just fascinated by my three year old going to the piano and finding Do-Re-Mi in a variety of places, and telling me with glee "Here's ANOTHER Do-Re-Mi!!!" Yes, he's been brought up on The Sound of Music (David Stratton's least favourite movie) and Singing in the Rain (David's favourite of all time), hence the Do-Re-Mi.

We also get a few "watch my mouth" shapes (this is from just after the fabulous "Good Morning" in Singing in the Rain, and is a Mi-Mi-Do shape although Tom calls it 'watch my mouth' as the lyric is in the film), and Tom's made up his own little song which starts with Do-So-So-So-So-Do, so he also plays that a lot where he can find it.

Watching him do this has made me think about the value of movable Do in working with any beginner. But with the provisional observation that Tom uses whichever lyrics he associates with that melodic contour... So it's about finding a language which underpins any lyric, and solfege seems a natural place to turn.

Having said that, this is all probably excellent material for a method! Haha!!! Hmm, where's that to-do list!!
_________________________
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#1472781 - 07/12/10 08:56 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Oh, and P Plate Piano are not method books. /gasp/ you mean you haven't seen them yet?! :-)
_________________________
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#1472787 - 07/12/10 09:12 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Amosquito Offline
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I used to teach in one of those music schools where group piano lessons were taught. The method we were required to teach involved using fixed Do & singing the notes before playing. I loved the singing before playing stuff, but it only seemed to work with the C major stuff - once we moved onto other keys it never felt right: not for me or for the kids. When the kids progressed to using note names instead of fixed Do (generally by the time they moved to private instead of group lessons), there was a huge period of adjustment.

Elissa, if you could create a movable Do piano method, that would be brilliant. I recall as a child transposing things as your son is doing. I think it's quite natural in the context of tonal western music (which, let's face it, is mostly what children here are going to hear) to use these relationships as a basis for understanding.
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#1473053 - 07/12/10 05:14 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
landorrano Offline
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Registered: 02/26/06
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Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne


Watching him do this has made me think about the value of movable Do in working with any beginner.


I don't follow your reasoning.

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#1473076 - 07/12/10 05:56 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne


Watching him do this has made me think about the value of movable Do in working with any beginner.


I don't follow your reasoning.


I do.

I should add that that this point I can move in movable or fixed do as well as ABC's by ear or reading. What you are taught is excellent and I wish it existed over here and started early. It is not the only way of approaching even fixd do - there are variants because the world is wide.

I related to notes in the way Elissa's son does and having nothing else I was able to do a fair bit with music. I never experienced that split between sound we hear or imagine, sound we produce, and sound we "see" in the score.

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#1473079 - 07/12/10 06:01 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne


Watching him do this has made me think about the value of movable Do in working with any beginner.


I don't follow your reasoning.
My reasoning is thus:it is entirely natural and enjoyable to start at the piano from songs the child already knows. Children can enjoy the mastery of recognising and performing patterns. Melodic patterns can be performed in any of the 12 semitone options the keyboard layout represents (some easier to locate than others, depending on the melodic contour). The use of consistent descriptors of each scale degree (whether you say 1, 2, 3 or Do-Re-Mi or some other sequential pattern) allows the child to discover each different permutation of the contour on the keyboard while recognising the structural sameness of the pattern.
_________________________
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#1473170 - 07/12/10 09:41 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Canonie Offline
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Loc: Australia
I can't say strongly enough how useful this discussion is to me just now. I have my philosophy of how I teach, but right in the middle of this complex web is a bridge that is rickety and unstable. That bridge is about internalising pitches and their patterns - Elissa your post above describes it perfectly.

My feeling is that discovering transpositions of known tunes is a way to internalise scale degrees, it's the way it happened for me. The scale degrees can be identified and numbered for the student afterwards I think. So my revamped "method" for say first year or so will look something like this:


1. All early pieces are songs where words and tune are very singable, addictive, appealing. These either have a simple piano accompaniment, or the piano part is exactly the same as vocal line. Lots and lots of pieces here and many memorised. A good proportion of canons (rounds) so that student learns to sing and play in polyphony as early as possible, and develops listening.

2. These early pieces are (often) a bit faster and more complex that what you find in average method book, so listening and coordination is developed beyond students overall level. In other words lack of fluent reading at beginning of learning is not a barrier to playing harder music.

NEW 3. Teach pitch names as do re mi (fixed) so that student can learn to sing what is written, write what is sung, and begins to hear music notation, and composes own songs. This is the NEW for me part as at the moment we sing "c d eeee" but it's not as Good to Sing for students. Anything that helps to sing and hear notation has got to be helpful I think.

NEW 4. Do a lot more transposing (every song or nearly?) and into more remote keys. And make sure that there is exposure to every key in these early pieces. (? review early pieces and transpose & rewrite some - I have begun to do this in the last 6 months, more is neede and maybe some new songs.)

5. Teach 5 note scales, major then minor, then full octave, as soon as physically possible. Label these as eg C major, D minor, etc to introduce letter names quite early, but sing as do re me fa etc.

6. Put pulse into the feet and internalise the counts (so that the teacher (almost) never has to count out loud while student is at the piano (arrrgh, just my quirky pet hate)). Use body movement and simple pulse exercises - saves lots of pain later.

7. Rhythm solfege: copying, memorising, writing and reading to level and complication well beyond what you meet if you begin in a method book such as Piano Adventures. Rhythm reading and fluency is developed beyond playing level.

I need to print this out so I do my homework. That's not a complete list (I haven't mention articulation and relationship to language, or story --> dynamics, for examples) but it's some basics. Lots of gratitude to you people for thought provoking posts and useful information and experiences.


Edited by Canonie (07/12/10 09:47 PM)
Edit Reason: easier to read

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#1473179 - 07/12/10 09:53 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
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Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Canonie, you're reading my mind.....
_________________________
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Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1473194 - 07/12/10 10:12 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Canonie Offline
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Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
smile yes i'm psychic hehe. I suppose you mean that this brief method outline is similar to your teaching? Do you really do the stomping for pulse, and side to side stomping for 3/4. I can never find anyone who does this within regular piano!

I forgot to say, no I haven't opened a P-plate book yet, I'll remember to have look when next at my local. Because I favour the use of the very singable songs for first year (or so) and have collection that is working well, I'm not looking for music at level below preliminary. Unless these book are full of highly singable songs (my assumptions here..).

The trouble with using existing songs is that they might all be in simple major sounds, might all have too simple rhythm and structure, might not be pianistic for little hands, might not have interesting or relevant lyrics, might not sound cool to your friends, and I don't know the songs that kids know. I hope that's not confusing but I'm saying that I haven't found the material I want in existing resources, but it might be out there.

But some very simple twinkle-star-type of songs can be good for transposing. So I like to include some of these too, but my own with more interesting lyrics wink


Edited by Canonie (07/12/10 10:15 PM)
Edit Reason: last sentence

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#1473218 - 07/12/10 10:54 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Canonie, check out my Guided Tour of the Little Peppers where I suggest teachers get their students dancing to 5/4!! And other things I think you'll find are very congruent with your ideas here... I didn't include so many of these ideas in the Getting to teacher guides for a variety of reasons... And I think you'll be surprised by the contents of P Plate Piano - I have no idea what you are expecting, but whatever it is I think you'll be surprised.

[well, now I've set myself up, haven't I?!]

Having said that, the collection was not compiled with the notion of highly singable songs as the *primary* criterion for inclusion, so maybe you'll be surprised and then put the books back down again!!
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1473296 - 07/13/10 03:37 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
landorrano Offline
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Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Canonie
my revamped "method"


So, at what time can I bring my little critter over?

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#1473374 - 07/13/10 08:33 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
TimR Offline
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Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3187
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Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
Watching him do this has made me think about the value of movable Do in working with any beginner. But with the provisional observation that Tom uses whichever lyrics he associates with that melodic contour... So it's about finding a language which underpins any lyric, and solfege seems a natural place to turn.


It seems to me that movable do is an "ear" method while fixed do is an "eye" method.

(sorry for confusing two threads)
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#1473416 - 07/13/10 10:41 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
landorrano Offline
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Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
My reasoning is thus


You seem to present the example of your son to underline the advantage of moveable-do solfège over fixed-do solfège.

If this is your idea, then I don't think that your reasoning is well-founded. A child doing the same activity but using a fixed-do system, will have the same experience.

Taking Frères Jacques, if he finds the notes on the piano and sings starting from do "do ré mi do" and then from ré "ré mi fa ré" and then from mi "mi fa sol mi" ...

I don't think that singing "do ré mi" in each of these three tonalities is really a simpler approach, or more efficient pedagogically.

However, I agree wholeheartedly that your example begs for a solfège activity of some sort, for the reasons that you give.

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#1473440 - 07/13/10 11:33 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
dumdumdiddle Offline
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Registered: 09/16/06
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Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
My reasoning is thus


You seem to present the example of your son to underline the advantage of moveable-do solfège over fixed-do solfège.

If this is your idea, then I don't think that your reasoning is well-founded. A child doing the same activity but using a fixed-do system, will have the same experience.

Taking Frères Jacques, if he finds the notes on the piano and sings starting from do "do ré mi do" and then from ré "ré mi fa ré" and then from mi "mi fa sol mi" ...

I don't think that singing "do ré mi" in each of these three tonalities is really a simpler approach, or more efficient pedagogically.

However, I agree wholeheartedly that your example begs for a solfège activity of some sort, for the reasons that you give.



I agree.
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#1473508 - 07/13/10 01:22 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: dumdumdiddle]
TimR Offline
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Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3187
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: dumdumdiddle
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
My reasoning is thus


You seem to present the example of your son to underline the advantage of moveable-do solfège over fixed-do solfège.

If this is your idea, then I don't think that your reasoning is well-founded. A child doing the same activity but using a fixed-do system, will have the same experience.

Taking Frères Jacques, if he finds the notes on the piano and sings starting from do "do ré mi do" and then from ré "ré mi fa ré" and then from mi "mi fa sol mi" ...

I don't think that singing "do ré mi" in each of these three tonalities is really a simpler approach, or more efficient pedagogically.

However, I agree wholeheartedly that your example begs for a solfège activity of some sort, for the reasons that you give.



I agree.


I don't think I do.

If fixed do worked that way, then the same child could also use C D E, Db Eb F, all over the keyboard.

And they can't. Not as a beginner anyway.

But they can sing do re mi starting on any note after one viewing of Sound of Music. It's more basic.
_________________________
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