Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#1468452 - 07/05/10 03:00 AM Movable Do Piano Methods?
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
I've been talking to piano teachers around Australia about teaching their beginners, and most teachers here do use the American methods - Alfred, Hal Leonard, Piano Adventures, recently the Premier method from Alfred, less recently Bastien...

There have been many discussions in this forum where I've seen teachers talking about using Movable Do: are there Movable Do method books that any of you use? Or is your use of Movable Do something you 'add' to other materials you are using?
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
(ad) My Music Staff
Check out the new way to manage your music studio
#1468486 - 07/05/10 06:08 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5899
Loc: Down Under
I use movable do, but I don't know of any piano method book which uses it (I do know of a recorder method book that does, however!). I incorporate it into the other materials I use, including some of my own.

I came across one method book for young children which claims to use Kodaly principles and so I thought it might use movable do, but on looking at the website - Dogs and Birds - I find they use animal names for the notes, and the children sing these, which really makes it more of a fixed do method.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#1468496 - 07/05/10 06:58 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: currawong]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Hmm, interesting. It just suddenly occurred to me today that I'd *never* seen a movable do piano method.....
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1468498 - 07/05/10 07:13 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
I would quite like to use a fixed Do piano method. I experimented with a new beginner young child recently; teaching her fixed Do solfege. Trouble is I don't know it terribly well (never used it at all and had to look up the sounds and make a chart that I can see during lessons). i realised that I have to practise it myself until more natural, and also integrate it better with my usual methods. Maybe I'll just revert to ABC again.

I can't imagine using movable Do. I grew up with ABCD...

(Australian teacher of beginners)
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

Top
#1468512 - 07/05/10 08:03 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Good point, Canonie, I can't imagine not calling A A either!! But even so, I'm amazed that so far no one knows of a movable do 'method'.....
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1468517 - 07/05/10 08:22 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Back in ancient history when I was in elementary school, we had daily music class. We were taught do, re, mi, etc. relative to scale degrees of the major scale (no instruments, just singing).

Never heard of fixed do until recently.
_________________________
Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax

Top
#1468519 - 07/05/10 08:30 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Studio Joe]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Well I hope that i am able to teach students how to internalise the scale degrees in spite of not training them in movable do. Hmmm better remember to make sure that everyone does at least some transposing this term.

Hurray for Holidays; a good time for pondering and preparing (and practising!).
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

Top
#1468525 - 07/05/10 08:57 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
ToriAnais Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 244
Loc: Australia
Forte has a fixed do method called Music Munchkins. Urrghh...

(And at this point I bite my tongue. Hard.)
_________________________
Piano teacher since August 2008.

Top
#1468527 - 07/05/10 09:18 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: ToriAnais]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Laughing at the hard tongue biting..... Fixed do doesn't interest me anyway.....
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1468564 - 07/05/10 11:03 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13759
Loc: Iowa City, IA
The closest thing to a true moveable do method in the US is Music Moves for Piano by Marilyn Lowe:

http://www.musicmovesforpiano.com/

I think there was one under development in the UK at one point (someone was working on a Kodaly-based piano method as a dissertation project) but I don't know if it ever found a publisher.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

Top
#1468570 - 07/05/10 11:13 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Kreisler]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1408
Loc: under monsoon clouds
I don't know of such a method, but Bastien does teach transposition early (at least in the adult method), and makes it clear early that every major key has the same structure so that the student can move from key to key easily.

Elene
_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






Top
#1468571 - 07/05/10 11:14 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Kreisler]
dumdumdiddle Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 1263
Loc: California
I've never really understood why someone would prefer 'moveable Do' over 'fixed Do' when teaching note names. The notes on the staff have to have secure, permanent names that students will remember. When using letter names, you don't scramble the names to fit the key do you?

I would think 'moveable Do' could only be used in addition to a letter name musical language already used by a student.

For 'fixed Do' I only know of Yamaha and Harmony Road programs that use solfege as their musical language.
_________________________
Music School Owner
Early Childhood Music Teacher/Group Piano Teacher/Private Piano Teacher
Member of MTAC and Guild

Top
#1468601 - 07/05/10 12:26 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: dumdumdiddle]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Originally Posted By: dumdumdiddle
I've never really understood why someone would prefer 'moveable Do' over 'fixed Do' when teaching note names. The notes on the staff have to have secure, permanent names that students will remember. When using letter names, you don't scramble the names to fit the key do you?


It's not used to teach note names. It teaches sale degrees.

"Doe a deer, a female deer. re ,,,,,,
_________________________
Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax

Top
#1468615 - 07/05/10 12:46 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Studio Joe]
dumdumdiddle Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 1263
Loc: California
Yes, so IN ADDITION to a set musical language.

'Fixed Do' for notereading and internalizing actual pitch.

'Moveable Do' for scale degrees/intervals.
_________________________
Music School Owner
Early Childhood Music Teacher/Group Piano Teacher/Private Piano Teacher
Member of MTAC and Guild

Top
#1468630 - 07/05/10 01:25 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: dumdumdiddle]
MomOfBeginners Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 114
Loc: California, USA
My mom grew up in rural south China. In school, she was taught to sing in doh-re-mi. She could never remember the lyrics to songs. I grew up listening to her sing all the songs in doh-re-mi, even the songs that I brought home from school. It is now ingrained in me so much that when I listen to music in the major or minor diatonic scale, I cannot get away from matching the solfege syllables to the pitch.

If the song modulates, the whole scale is repositioned to a new doh. When we get to some jazz music, the tonic is identified, and the scale is adapted with the raised or lowered notes. Internally, that translated very well when memorizing and analyzing my piano pieces.

I grew up in a church where the entire hymnal is written out like:

Eb major
1 1 2 3 | 4 - - - etc.

and the entire congregation knows how to read music that way. It's not doh-re-mi, but it's still the concept of a symbol matching the degree of a scale. Notes lower than 1 has a dot at the bottom. Notes higher than 7 has a dot at the top. Eighth notes are underlined. Sixteenth notes are double-underlined.

I don't anything about solfege as a piano method - or specifically applied to piano. I also never had formal training in solfege. But once it got inside my system, it definitely helped with my piano and theory.
_________________________
Mom of Two Girls Who Used to Be Beginners

Top
#1468634 - 07/05/10 01:34 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
I'm amazed that so far no one knows of a movable do 'method'.....


May I ask, what do you mean by a movable do piano method? I cannot grasp the idea at all.

Top
#1468765 - 07/05/10 05:01 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Originally Posted By: landorrano

May I ask, what do you mean by a movable do piano method? I cannot grasp the idea at all.


Scale degrees instead of notes. Doe is always the tonic no matter what key the piece is in.
_________________________
Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax

Top
#1468788 - 07/05/10 05:43 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Studio Joe]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
I know what movable-do solfège is, but I had the impresion that Elissa means a piano method that uses movable do in some way.

Top
#1468829 - 07/05/10 07:03 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5899
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Canonie
I can't imagine using movable Do. I grew up with ABCD...
That's just when you can use movable do. Letter names for fixed pitch, movable do solfa for scale degrees. Goes well together because they are used in different contexts.
What doesn't work (or works less well) is to combine fixed and movable do - where the same terminology means two different things.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#1468831 - 07/05/10 07:07 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5899
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
I'm amazed that so far no one knows of a movable do 'method'.....
May I ask, what do you mean by a movable do piano method? I cannot grasp the idea at all.
I'm not answering for Elissa, but I understood her to mean a piano method book that (in addition to teaching letter names as the fixed pitches) teaches the concept of scale degrees and their relationship to each other by using movable do solfa (incorporating singing as well as playing).
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#1468852 - 07/05/10 07:45 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: currawong]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
currawong's right: but more concretely, imagine a piano method like Piano Adventures or the Alfred Premier method, comprising Lessons Books, Theory Books, Technique, Solos, and so on.... which works with the premise that the relationship between notes (solfege) is the starting point. Does such a method exist? I think not, but I am turning to the wisdom of crowds here in the Piano World Teachers Forum.....
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1468867 - 07/05/10 08:17 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: currawong]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: Canonie
I can't imagine using movable Do. I grew up with ABCD...
That's just when you can use movable do. Letter names for fixed pitch, movable do solfa for scale degrees. Goes well together because they are used in different contexts.
What doesn't work (or works less well) is to combine fixed and movable do - where the same terminology means two different things.

Ah of course - you'd have ABCD note names, then do re mi scale degrees. At the moment I/students sing the numbers out loud ("seven" is annoyingly polysyllabic, "flat seveeeeen" even sillier). But I don't introduce this much or early. I think as a child I internalised scale degrees by singing and playing around with a bit of transposing (not taught in lessons). It's good to remind myself that aural skills will not always happen automatically for students.

MomofB - re number notation, is a minor third indicated with 3- or is there no indication of major or minor in the numbers?
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

Top
#1468876 - 07/05/10 08:36 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
Smallpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/10
Posts: 270
Loc: California
I like the idea of MomOfB.
I do not know any Movable Do Piano Method. If there is one, I would use ABC plus this Movable Do Method instead of Fix-Do.
_________________________
English is my 4th languages, please excuse my grammar. Thanks

Top
#1469144 - 07/06/10 09:47 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
MomOfBeginners Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 114
Loc: California, USA
Minor keys I think were notated with the tonic as 6 with a dot at the bottom. If a note was raised, they'd use a sharp symbol # as in #4. If a note was lowered, they'd use the flat symbol as in b3.

Bear in mind, though, that this was more than 20 years ago, and I think the notation was made for easy typing on a primitive typewriter. In later editions, the music was written out on a staff, with the same notation numbers on top. Still later, the number notations were completely gone.

My point was more that a there were whole masses of people with little training in music (only in elementary school), unable to read the staff or note names, but who could understand degrees of a scale (most of them translating easily to doh-re-mi) and can sing in any key.



Edited by MomOfBeginners (07/06/10 09:48 AM)
_________________________
Mom of Two Girls Who Used to Be Beginners

Top
#1469470 - 07/06/10 07:53 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: MomOfBeginners]
findingnemo2010 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 1491
try berklee contemporary ear training for modern musicians or soemthin, they use movable do or any of their stuff i believe
_________________________
music to me is kind of like putting together pieces of a puzzle
i call it the paino because its where i put all my pain

Top
#1469479 - 07/06/10 08:08 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: findingnemo2010]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Joe84, this doesn't sound like a book designed to be used with beginners/6 year olds!! Or am I mistaken?
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1469491 - 07/06/10 08:45 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
dan.mc Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 18
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
I have never used movable do method books but there are two available in Australia that I know of:

"Piano Play" by John Colwill

and

"Piano for Children" by David Banney

Perhaps someone here has used them...
_________________________
www.danielmcfarlane.com

Top
#1469711 - 07/07/10 06:59 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: dan.mc]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5899
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: dan.mc
I have never used movable do method books but there are two available in Australia that I know of:
"Piano Play" by John Colwill
and
"Piano for Children" by David Banney...
Interesting - I'll keep my eye out for them.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#1469721 - 07/07/10 07:34 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: currawong]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: dan.mc
I have never used movable do method books but there are two available in Australia that I know of:
"Piano Play" by John Colwill
and
"Piano for Children" by David Banney...
Interesting - I'll keep my eye out for them.
Well, I can't believe I never knew til now that John Colwill had written beginner piano books..... Goodness me!!! I've ordered them in.... Thanks so much for sharing this information!!
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1471492 - 07/10/10 12:17 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
jeffalthouse Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/03/10
Posts: 1
Loc: Florida, USA
Recently I had a piano ped class while going for my Masters, the professor was French. He was of the European fixed "DO" system. In general he felt that who ever invented the mobile DO was an idiot.

Upon much thought, there is no advantage to a mobile DO over a fixed one....

Top
#1471499 - 07/10/10 12:34 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: jeffalthouse]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5899
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: jeffalthouse
Recently I had a piano ped class while going for my Masters, the professor was French. He was of the European fixed "DO" system. In general he felt that who ever invented the mobile DO was an idiot.

Upon much thought, there is no advantage to a mobile DO over a fixed one....
There are those here who might agree with you. But also many (like me) who don't. If you can't see any advantage at all in a movable do system of teaching and internalising scale degrees, then I suggest you haven't looked into it closely enough. And did your French professor dismiss Kodaly as an idiot too?

Welcome, by the way! smile
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#1471500 - 07/10/10 12:37 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: currawong]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5899
Loc: Down Under
I should just add that I think there is a place for both a fixed and movable system. But NOT used together, with the same terminology.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#1471503 - 07/10/10 12:39 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: currawong]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5415
Loc: Orange County, CA
...and kids are confused...
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

Top
#1471506 - 07/10/10 12:46 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: AZNpiano]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5899
Loc: Down Under
Actually it drives me crazy that the two systems exist with the same terminology. I won't go so far as to call anyone an idiot (though John Hullah certainly confused things in England), but each individual idea is great! Fixed do - singable note names; movable do - singable scale degrees. What more could you want? Different terminology for both systems, that's what.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#1471520 - 07/10/10 01:24 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: currawong]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: jeffalthouse
Recently I had a piano ped class while going for my Masters, the professor was French. He was of the European fixed "DO" system. In general he felt that who ever invented the mobile DO was an idiot.

Upon much thought, there is no advantage to a mobile DO over a fixed one....
I'm sure many professors end up with their own private idiot hitlist, and it's certainly interesting to have an insight into your French professor's revelation of who makes it onto his.

What were his views about methods of teaching scale degree/function? I suspect he had none, and if this is confirmed I may have to start compiling my own list of idiots.

Meantime, what are your own views?

_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1471522 - 07/10/10 01:32 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Well he might have just sung like this
1 2 3 1/1 2 3 1/3 4 5 . /3 4 5 . / and so on.

But in French of course.

Top
#1471527 - 07/10/10 02:02 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: Canonie
Well he might have just sung like this
1 2 3 1/1 2 3 1/3 4 5 . /3 4 5 . / and so on.

But in French of course.
you have made me laugh SOOOO hard!!!!

un-deux-trois-merde, huh?!
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1471537 - 07/10/10 02:24 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
glad to give you a giggle.

...but you got the song right? So, what is it?

Top
#1471550 - 07/10/10 03:12 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: jeffalthouse]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: jeffalthouse

Upon much thought, there is no advantage to a mobile DO over a fixed one....


It seems to me that moveable-do has reason-to-be only as a complement to the A-B-C nomenclature system which is, in itself, inadequate insofar as it doesn't lend itself to solfège-type exercise.

Top
#1471551 - 07/10/10 03:15 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: currawong]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: currawong
And did your French professor dismiss Kodaly as an idiot too?


Why? What was Kodaly's approach?

Top
#1471553 - 07/10/10 03:22 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5899
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: landorrano
It seems to me that moveable-do has reason-to-be only as a complement to the A-B-C nomenclature system which is, in itself, inadequate insofar as it doesn't lend itself to solfège-type exercise.
I agree that movable do works best as a complement to a different note-naming system (ABC, though could be anything - except do-re-mi smile ). I also agree that letter names are not as singable as do-re-mi, so to some extent they are inadequate for vocalising pitch. But if you are in a fixed-do world and want to vocalise scale degrees rather than absolute pitch you have a similar problem - that of finding a singable system of syllables. Numbers are ok I guess - except for se-ven. smile
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#1471555 - 07/10/10 03:26 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5899
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: currawong
And did your French professor dismiss Kodaly as an idiot too?
Why? What was Kodaly's approach?
Kodaly used movable do solfa in his approach to music education with young children in Hungary.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#1471556 - 07/10/10 03:27 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne

What were his views about methods of teaching scale degree/function? I suspect he had none,



I suspect that his view was that scale degrees are included in solfège, which is indeed the case.


Originally Posted By: Canonie
Well he might have just sung like this
1 2 3 1/1 2 3 1/3 4 5 . /3 4 5 . / and so on.

But in French of course.


But it is in French! It's you who have to translate into English ...

... or into proper Ozzish:

Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne


un-deux-trois-merde, huh?!

Top
#1471557 - 07/10/10 03:30 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: currawong]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5899
Loc: Down Under
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#1471558 - 07/10/10 03:34 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
It's Frere Jacque - is what I meant wink My point being that I can "see" the sounds that this scale degree pattern makes. But how do I give this knowledge well to a student? And would I with the awkwardness of singing "flatsix" on an eighth note?

This problem bothers me quite a lot. I have not resolved it within my teaching method. One is tempted to go out on a limb and develop a completely unique system just for me, but there are big drawbacks to this of course.

Well Elissa, I hope you will let us know how you find those new books you ordered.
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

Top
#1471561 - 07/10/10 03:50 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Canonie
It's Frere Jacque

I'd got it, Frère Jacques.

It would be, in key of do
do ré mi do
do ré mi do
mi fa sol .
mi fa sol .

In key of do sharp
do ré mi do
do ré mi do
mi fa sol .
mi fa sol .

In key of fa sharp
fa sol la fa
fa sol la fa
la si do .
la si do .


Edited by landorrano (07/10/10 03:52 AM)

Top
#1471562 - 07/10/10 04:05 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: currawong]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: currawong
But if you are in a fixed-do world and want to vocalise scale degrees rather than absolute pitch you have a similar problem - that of finding a singable system of syllables. Numbers are ok I guess - except for se-ven. smile


What interest is there to have a different name for scale degrees when singing, different from regular solfège practice?

I would suppose that if there is a use alongside of do-ré-mi solfège than it already exists. There may be something. I am not enough in the milieu of solfège pedagogy to know everything that goes on.

Top
#1471565 - 07/10/10 04:17 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
It seems to that movable do is more useful for learning relative pitch.

Whereas fixed do might be better for training absolute pitch.
_________________________
Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax

Top
#1471591 - 07/10/10 07:58 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Studio Joe]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Studio Joe
It seems to that movable do is more useful for learning relative pitch.





In a situation, a country where the notes are named a-b-c ... OK.

But if you are starting from do-ré-mi ... , I don't see what advantage there might be to have a supplementary system that rests upon the degrees of scales.

We simply say, or sing :

"do ré mi fa sol la si do" for the scale of do major ( key of c major ), and the interval between mi and fa is a half-tone ...

and then

"ré mi fa sol la si do ré" for the scale of ré major ( d major ), where the interval mi-fa is a whole-tone. This is different from a modulation within the key of do, where you would also sing "ré mi fa sol la si do ré" but where the interval mi-fa remains a half-tone.

Top
#1471592 - 07/10/10 08:05 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
It's not even about relative pitch, it's about function.

keystring raises the interesting point that using the major scale as a default privileges the major modes above other pitch patterns, but I think in Western music (historically, in an art sense, in a folk sense) has this privilege inbuilt, and this [major modes as default] is therefore a natural fit for learning to play an instrument from the Western musical tradition.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1471639 - 07/10/10 11:04 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11556
Loc: Canada
I puzzled over this for a while:
Quote:
MomofB - re number notation, is a minor third indicated with 3- or is there no indication of major or minor in the numbers.

Degrees are individual notes which are also the nth note of a scale. An individual note cannot be major or minor since that involves an interval between two notes, or a particular kind of three-note chord (again intervals). So I wondered.

Then I remembered the area that I am still weak in which is second nature to any advanced pianist: the quality of degree chords. The third degree chord (mediant) of a major scale is minor. The fourth degree chord is major, etc. This would be in your bones. I imagine that you cannot think of 3 (mi) without immediately hearing the minor quality of iii (chord). Am I on track?

Before I learned conventional things, I might hear and write down:
mi re do do re do ti do re mi re -- re ti so - so so - so mi re do. Translation:
3 2 1 1 2 1 7 1 2 3 2 -- 2 7 5 - 5 5 - 5 3 2 1
Song: Ein Vogelfaenger bin ich ja - Pappageno of Magic Flute.
The solfege, and translation to degree notes, are instant.

I would say that it was not so much taught, as it was internalized, when I was a child. The knowledge is there for you and you don't even know it.

Top
#1471650 - 07/10/10 11:27 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: keystring]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Originally Posted By: keystring
I puzzled over this for a while:
Quote:
MomofB - re number notation, is a minor third indicated with 3- or is there no indication of major or minor in the numbers.


3- would indicate the third scale degree lowered by 1/2 step. (minor 3rd)

If you are talking about chord charts, 3- would be a minor chord built on the root of the 3rd scale degree. eg. Eminor in the key of C.


Edited by Studio Joe (07/10/10 11:38 AM)
_________________________
Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax

Top
#1471651 - 07/10/10 11:33 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Studio Joe]
Amosquito Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/10
Posts: 39
Loc: Australia
Can I just say that as a singer/pianist, fixed Do makes no sense to me at ALL and I don't understand why anyone would use it as a substitution for movable Do/scale degrees and/or note names.
_________________________
Amos

Facilitator of learning
Lover of pianos and singing
Wannabe singer/songwriter

Top
#1471696 - 07/10/10 01:21 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Studio Joe]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11556
Loc: Canada
Quote:
3- would indicate the third scale degree lowered by 1/2 step. (minor 3rd)


Then I suspect, not for the first time, that apples and oranges are being mixed. Those whose first language is notes, pitch names, etc., are translating movable do into something they understand. The third scale degree is not major, or minor, or anything, even if this is referring to a minor scale. C D Eb F G Ab B(nat - maybe - or flat) C. Eb is a minor third from C, true. It is not a minor third from D, or from F. The minor third idea stems from notes and notation, where we remember these kinds of things. It is important, because the sense of the particular aspect of music that m.d.solfege imparts won't be there. In that case why not just say 1,2,3 and be done with it? It does not even make sense that it is written out. It belongs to an oral tradition, and ear training.

What movable do gives is also a sense of function. So is not only the 5th degree or a P5 up from the tonic, it is also the dominant and has that dominant feeling to it.

For minor scales we called the tonic La. It is a rather modal mentality. If I have to call the tonic of a minor scale Do as in the modern system, then I also have to start thinking in pitches - it becomes artificial and difficult.

Top
#1471698 - 07/10/10 01:24 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Amosquito]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Amosquito
I don't understand why anyone would use it as a substitution for movable Do/scale degrees and/or note names.


No one uses fixed-do as a substitution for movable-do and/or note names.

It is the other way around: movable-do solfège is used as a substitution for fixed-do solfège, in countries where the note names are a-b-c.

Originally Posted By: Amosquito
Can I just say that as a singer/pianist, fixed Do makes no sense to me at ALL


Of course you can say that, however I believe that your formulation is mistaken. It is not true that as a pianist or a singer that fixed-do makes no sense to you. It makes no sense to you because for you the notes are named a-b-c ... and not do-ré-mi ...

Top
#1471785 - 07/10/10 04:11 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11556
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
It's not even about relative pitch, it's about function.

keystring raises the interesting point that using the major scale as a default privileges the major modes above other pitch patterns, but I think in Western music (historically, in an art sense, in a folk sense) has this privilege inbuilt, and this [major modes as default] is therefore a natural fit for learning to play an instrument from the Western musical tradition.


Major and natural minor in the way I learned it, actually. The tonic of natural minor was La and it was a decidedly modal way of thinking. And I was also thinking about function as you pointed out.

I was thinking, among others, of the fact that your music reflects what young people hear these days, namely music that is not in major or minor keys. If the music is pure modal then solfege fits 100%. Dorian is Re to Re, Phrygian is (Mi to Mi?). But others?

If it is ok to go off on a tangent, I have also thought about music theory when we get to the writing stage - ever since this idea of modern music using other scales came up. As follows:

I learned to write major and minor scales first, and we got blues, pentatonic, octatonic, whole tone afterward, as well as the church modes. For the first, you end up with no key signatures and you skip note names and do awkward things. Our staff system was designed at the time of common practice and that becomes clear.

I've been of two minds. First I felt that it was important for me to have the major and minor scales and how they work solid, since key signatures and such were actualy designed for them. Then it is possible to deal with the other scales. But they will always seem other and foreign. But second, what if this is just familiarity? When you begin with the other scales where you actually have to think about the notes and intervals, does that give a flexibility that would make us see major/minor scales differently when we get to them? And does this begin with ear?

I don't know if this makes sense or even if it is proper to post it in this thread.

Top
#1471791 - 07/10/10 04:18 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Keystring, I agree my first sentence wasn't well thought out.

My second statement (which you didn't mention) however I stand by. It is from the Nashville numbering system in which Arabic numbers are used to indicate the root of the chord, and the minus sign qualifies the chord as minor.
_________________________
Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax

Top
#1471817 - 07/10/10 04:45 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Studio Joe]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11556
Loc: Canada
I'm sure that that is how it's done, Joe. I don't know how unique my experience is. It dates back to around 1962 or 63 when I was about 8 years old. I did understand what you were referring to and have seen it since joining PW. I did not refer to the chord chart since I was not talking about chords. I've not heard about the Nashville numbering system,though the + - signs are things I've seen in the old RCM theory rudiments book and Horwood, and Arabic numerals are used for root names, instead of ^1, ^2 etc. (hat goes on the number). Perhaps it's the same?

Top
#1472081 - 07/11/10 12:56 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Amosquito Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/10
Posts: 39
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: Amosquito
I don't understand why anyone would use it as a substitution for movable Do/scale degrees and/or note names.


No one uses fixed-do as a substitution for movable-do and/or note names.

It is the other way around: movable-do solfège is used as a substitution for fixed-do solfège, in countries where the note names are a-b-c.

Originally Posted By: Amosquito
Can I just say that as a singer/pianist, fixed Do makes no sense to me at ALL


Of course you can say that, however I believe that your formulation is mistaken. It is not true that as a pianist or a singer that fixed-do makes no sense to you. It makes no sense to you because for you the notes are named a-b-c ... and not do-ré-mi ...



No, it makes no sense to me because as a singer, I'm so entrenched in movable Do.
_________________________
Amos

Facilitator of learning
Lover of pianos and singing
Wannabe singer/songwriter

Top
#1472105 - 07/11/10 01:59 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Amosquito]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
OK, folks, let's make this simple.

Movable do is about pitches in relationship to each other. It is primarily a function of the ear. In movable do, the pitches relate to each other in a consistent way, no matter where do starts.

Fixed do is more about reading. It fixes a pitch on the staff in a specific place.

I find that people who are strong aural learners prefer movable do, and people who are strong visual learners seem to prefer fixed do. I've also encountered a stronger fixed do preference among people that play single-line instruments.

If properly taught, they can both be used. However, if you are learning this skill as an adult, it is much harder to learn both. Children seem to find it simpler.
_________________________
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano

Top
#1472115 - 07/11/10 02:45 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Minniemay]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Probably old ground here [in terms of this forum], but does anyone in the English speaking world use FIXED DO??????
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1472130 - 07/11/10 03:34 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Well I started to this year as an experiment. Didn't know it was uncommon and wanted a way to sing written notes easily for a very young student. Unfortunately I didn't practise enough so it never became 2nd nature.

I was turned off movable do for a couple of reasons. Firstly the majority of my beg. music is modal or has black and blue notes. I don't use a lot of beginner pieces of the simple C major type (like in Piano Adventures) mainly because too much of this sort of music makes me And I didn't know how to handle lots of non-scale notes with movable Doh (didn't research further).

But there was a 2nd reason. I remember in aural class at 'music institution' when we got to the point of sight singing atonal music there were a couple of students making desperate hand gestures, looking stressed and suddenly losing their ability to sight sing. I remember the teacher saying "well, it doesn't work with atonal music does it, eh?" and seeming pleased about something. I think people can be very loyal to their method (this thread shows that!).

I might be an english speaking Fixed Do person, but perhaps I should confirm in a year. And likely if I'm doing it then everyone else is doing the oppposite since if my teaching has a "flavour" it is The Opposite
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

Top
#1472135 - 07/11/10 04:01 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Canonie, I expect then that you feel unhappy with calling a C a C, then? Is that right? You're singing Do-Re-Mi when the notes are C D E, but singing So-La-Ti when the notes are G A B?
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1472137 - 07/11/10 04:12 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5415
Loc: Orange County, CA
When I first started piano lessons, I learned fixed do and letter names simultaneously. Since I have perfect pitch, I've attached each name in solfege with a particular pitch. I didn't encounter movable do until college musicianship class. To this day, if I'm forced to use movable do, I have to think about it. Fixed do comes to me much more naturally.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

Top
#1472143 - 07/11/10 04:40 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: AZNpiano]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
AZNpiano, why did they teach you two naming systems simultaneously, do you know, or maybe you can speculate? :-)
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1472147 - 07/11/10 04:52 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5415
Loc: Orange County, CA
Why?? No idea. I guess that's how things work in that part of Asia. We also had music class in public schools (with textbooks!!!).

I've also seen the 1-2-3-4 system (movable do). Works great for simple, non-modulating tunes with simple rhythm. Many singers told me it's their "cheap and dirty" way to notate music without using the western notation system. Of course, when they start to sing more complex music, things fall apart.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

Top
#1472153 - 07/11/10 05:12 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Canonie

I might be an english speaking Fixed Do person, but perhaps I should confirm in a year.


I too am an english speaking fixed-do person.

Fixed-do, that is to say I use exclusively the do-ré-mi nomeclature, and I have become strongly favorable to the practise of solfège.

I love it, have never looked back. The do-ré-mi nomenclature, with all of its implications, is a liberation.

I hope that you will continue along this path, until you are at home in this lovely musical language.

Top
#1472154 - 07/11/10 05:19 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
You're singing Do-Re-Mi when the notes are C D E, but singing So-La-Ti when the notes are G A B?


I would hope, Canonie, that you use the name "si" and not "ti".

"Ti", I believe, exists only as a syllable of moveable-do solfège. "Ti" is not the name of the note.

Top
#1472156 - 07/11/10 05:32 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Minniemay]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Minniemay


Fixed do is more about reading.


I agree that fixed-do solfège is about reading. ( When you say fixed-do, I understand you to mean solfège. )

However, you have to take the word "reading" in the broadest musical sense. Reading means looking at a score and understanding it musically.

Thus, in fact what you say about moveable do ...

Originally Posted By: Minniemay

Movable do is about pitches in relationship to each other. It is primarily a function of the ear.


... is equally true of fixed-do solfège.


Edited by landorrano (07/11/10 05:36 AM)

Top
#1472157 - 07/11/10 05:37 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
Canonie, I expect then that you feel unhappy with calling a C a C, then? Is that right? You're singing Do-Re-Mi when the notes are C D E, but singing So-La-Ti when the notes are G A B?

Oh I'm happy to Call a C a C, it's ease of singing that's the problem. But yes to your examples. And sorry land'o, I chose Ti not Si oops. I can't remember if I came across the Si as well, but I like singing the letter T better. So anyone else? is Ti unheard of as a note name (fixed Do) in any country. Opposite as usual...

AZN thank you so much for confirming my ideas regarding movable Do and more complex music - very helpful.

And thank you landorrano for encouragemnt to pursue these names. If I just practised i tiny bit instead of for 2 mins just b4 I see this student, and with my eyes glued to the chart I made. Sometimes i feel too old for a new language! Did you learn this as a child land'o?

Still, I took to rhythm solfege like a woman to chocolate, feels v natural. But i think it is easier.
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

Top
#1472164 - 07/11/10 06:12 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
I have a question. When singing in fixed do solfege, how do you pronounce sharps and flats? For instance, when singing in the key of fa, your si would be out of scale. So is there a name for Bb?

Of course with movable do you would encounter the same problem with accidentals.
_________________________
Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax

Top
#1472166 - 07/11/10 06:13 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Canonie
Sometimes i feel too old for a new language! Did you learn this as a child land'o?


I don't know your age, but I'd bet that I had a few more rings in my trunk than you do now.

As for Ti or Si. I think that it is a mistake to use Ti, if you use the do-ré-mi nomenclature and if you wish to understand the possibilities that it represents.

The syllables have a sense to them, they have an ancient meaning that has marked all musical development, in the way that the greek letters that are at the origen of our alphabet have a sense that still animates our thought.

There is more to these names than their consonance.

Top
#1472168 - 07/11/10 06:21 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Studio Joe]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Studio Joe
I have a question. When singing in fixed do solfege, how do you pronounce sharps and flats? For instance, when singing in the key of fa, your si would be out of scale. So is there a name for Bb?


You have to distinguish the do-ré-mi nomenclature from solfège exercises.

The name of the note Bb is si-bémol.

However, in a solfège exercise, the scale of si-bémol is si-do-ré-mi-fa-sol-la. The scale of mi-bémol, Eb, is mi-fa-sol-la-si-do-ré-mi.

If you encounter si-bémol as an accidental in a solfège exercise you would pronounce "si" in the correct tone.

Top
#1472176 - 07/11/10 07:05 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Thanks Lando. So the do-re-mi names are not fixed pitches, but fixed places on the staff, and the key signature determines their exact pitch?


Edited by Studio Joe (07/11/10 07:07 AM)
_________________________
Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax

Top
#1472183 - 07/11/10 07:50 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: Canonie
Sometimes i feel too old for a new language! Did you learn this as a child land'o?


I don't know your age, but I'd bet that I had a few more rings in my trunk than you do now.

As for Ti or Si. I think that it is a mistake to use Ti, if you use the do-ré-mi nomenclature and if you wish to understand the possibilities that it represents.

The syllables have a sense to them, they have an ancient meaning that has marked all musical development, in the way that the greek letters that are at the origen of our alphabet have a sense that still animates our thought.

There is more to these names than their consonance.

Thank you for this and your next post. Re Trunk rings - we'll never know wink but it's still harder to learn new language than when I was a kid or a teen. It gets harder.

I definitely have a different system/ list of syllables. It probably doesn't have the subtlety and richness of yours. It's just a list of syllables to replace all letter names (although each 'black note' has 2 names; one for flat and one for sharp)

I should probably not use it in teaching until more research and use. I did explain clearly and honestly that it was an experiment with that student - parents said yes and she loves piano so "No dramas" as we say in Australia (nasally if possible).
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

Top
#1472184 - 07/11/10 07:53 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11556
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: landorrano
[quote=Canonie]
The syllables have a sense to them, they have an ancient meaning that has marked all musical development, in the way that the greek letters that are at the origen of our alphabet have a sense that still animates our thought.

The syllables do not have an ancient meaning. In fact, the system itself is not ancient. It was invented a few hundred years ago as part of the history of the development of Western music itself. Nor were the notes thought of as they are today.

The syllables come from a chant that begins Ut queant laxis. Ut was hard to pronounce so it became Do as in Dominus. At that time there was a fixed set of chants that choirboys had to memorize by rote and it took years to learn phrase by phrase, by imitation. With the coming of Charlemagne and efforts to unify the Christian empire there was an effort to standardize the liturgy. A few monks here and there were already trying to solve the problem of teaching a few hundred chants by rote. Guido d'Arezzi came up with solmization.

The key is that there were already chants with fixed Latin words that were considered sacred and could not be changed. One of those chants was used, and the first syllable that happened to occur on whatever word as the music ascended was used. There is nothing magical or special about the syllables themselves.

What is special about the syllables is that they also represent functional harmony and are more than just degree names or quick ways to recognize the common intervals. That is truly special.

* Greek letters are at the origin of the Cyrillic alphabet. Ours (English, French, Spanish etc.) are originated by the Latin alphabet.

Top
#1472204 - 07/11/10 08:21 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: keystring]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Quote:
What is special about the syllables is that they also represent functional harmony and are more than just degree names or quick ways to recognize the common intervals. That is truly special.

well that does sound pretty special.

That's funny, I'd forgotten about the origins of Ut Re Mi. Some how my brain so easiy reverts to believing that it was invented by Julie Andrews. That hymn I remember only goes up to La. ... Just checked my text and my Grout and Palisca says that these 6 syllables "are still employed in teaching, except that we say do for ut and ti above la." Ut is a good scrabble word wink

Also in other fun trivia, I remember learning that "the whole gamut" meaning "everything", comes from the whole gamma to ut = from the lowest to highest note on grand staff (or could be other way round). someone can correct me. Ut is such a nice word (but hell to sing).
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

Top
#1472262 - 07/11/10 11:11 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
dumdumdiddle Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 1263
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
Probably old ground here [in terms of this forum], but does anyone in the English speaking world use FIXED DO??????


I use 'fixed do' with my students and prefer it to letter names, particularly for younger children.

Programs such as Harmony Road and Yamaha, which are taught in a few hundred locations in the US, use 'fixed do' exclusively for the first 3-4 years; they then add letter names.
_________________________
Music School Owner
Early Childhood Music Teacher/Group Piano Teacher/Private Piano Teacher
Member of MTAC and Guild

Top
#1472308 - 07/11/10 01:02 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: dumdumdiddle]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
dumdiddle, why do you prefer to use Do to C?
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1472322 - 07/11/10 01:36 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: keystring]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: keystring
the first syllable that happened to occur on whatever word as the music ascended was used. There is nothing magical or special about the syllables themselves.


Ok, ancient is not the proper term, still we're talking about 1000 years.

I do think that there is something magical about the syllables themselves. I don't mean to say that I believe in their mystical power. But I do believe they were invested with a sense that has, consciously or unconsciously, marked musical developments.

I cannot prove this of course. But it is difficult to conceive that it would be otherwise during the middle ages.

Gui d'Arezzo was not just a mild-mannered choirmaster, trying to get his lads to sing right. He was an important figure, having written numerous treatises, and apparently is widely cited in music treatises as an authority, after Pythagorus and Boetius.

Just to waste a little time at the computer, before the World Cup final, here's an extract from one theory that I have come across:

Imagine a cross, with the vertical branch, descending, as ré sol ut io, resolution.

The horizontal branch, left to right, is al (la in reverse) sol fa.

The sol, the sun, thus finds itself at at the center of the cross, and O as the center if the center, O or omega. The dispostion of la and fa give alfa or alpha. "It is a devine devise according to the Apocolypse of Saint John which cites 3 times, 'I am the alpha and the omega'. Alpha in centrifuge can above all symbolize the dissolution of elements, the first phase of the resolution ".

...... Ré
....Al sol Fa
.......ut
.......io

(The dots are there to align the vertical branch of the cross)

Not that any of that has direct importance, or is even particularly interesting. It's just for old times' sake, Keystring. You may remember that our first encounter was around this same question. If that isn't love, what is?

Top
#1472325 - 07/11/10 01:39 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
dumdiddle, why do you prefer to use Do to C?


I too am very interested in your answer, Dumdiddle.

Top
#1472328 - 07/11/10 01:43 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Studio Joe]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Studio Joe
Thanks Lando. So the do-re-mi names are not fixed pitches, but fixed places on the staff, and the key signature determines their exact pitch?


I'll get back to you about that, Joe, but I've got to go watch the match !

Top
#1472402 - 07/11/10 04:11 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
dumdumdiddle Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 1263
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
dumdiddle, why do you prefer to use Do to C?


I grew up learning letter names and was first introduced to solfege when I trained to teach the Yamaha program back in the 80's. At first, it was confusing to me, but over the years I found I preferred it to teaching letter names as the student's first musical language.

I now teach Harmony Road, similar to Yamaha in that it's a group music program that allows kids to experience many different musical activities, all centered around the piano keyboard. Concepts are EXPERIENCED first, then taught.

Solfege is used because of the extensive ear training that is woven throughout the program. Students learn what 'do', 're', 'mi' SOUND like before they learn them on the staff. Kids as young as four years old don't have to know the alphabet in order to learn to play piano. They learn the note names in solfege, although some letter naming is used when referring to 'C' chords (do-mi-sol), 'G7' chords (ti-fa-sol), and when talking about playing in the Key of C, G, F, Dm, etc.... Solfege is the key to ear training and internalizing pitch.

The philosophy of both programs says that the VOICE is a child's first instrument. Children will sing every song that they will eventually play on the piano. They will sing hundreds of short and long solfege patterns over course of the 4 year program. They will create their own patterns and turn those into short compositions that they notate.

Having taught both letter names and 'fixed Do' solfege for nearly 30 years now, I'm completely sold on teaching solfege to beginning students.
_________________________
Music School Owner
Early Childhood Music Teacher/Group Piano Teacher/Private Piano Teacher
Member of MTAC and Guild

Top
#1472417 - 07/11/10 04:37 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: dumdumdiddle]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11556
Loc: Canada
Quote:
'G7' chords (ti-fa-sol)

Where did Re go? wink incomplete G7 with inversion? (curious)

Top
#1472450 - 07/11/10 05:40 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: keystring]
dumdumdiddle Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 1263
Loc: California
I hope you're being funny smile

These are little kids; a 3-note chord is challenging enough.

A G chord would be played 'ti-re-sol'.
_________________________
Music School Owner
Early Childhood Music Teacher/Group Piano Teacher/Private Piano Teacher
Member of MTAC and Guild

Top
#1472460 - 07/11/10 05:53 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: dumdumdiddle]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11556
Loc: Canada
Dumdumdiddle, I am admittedly a student. I know nothing about your program so my question was sincere. You said that they sing things first. I sing the G7 chord, and I sing it as "so ti re fa" and in that way I know which notes are involved in that chord, and how they relate in every way. Ti-re-so was disorienting to me. So they sing exactly as they play - that makes sense. Thank you.

Top
#1472464 - 07/11/10 06:00 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: keystring]
dumdumdiddle Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 1263
Loc: California
The smiley you posted made me think that your question was 'a bit in jest'. No problem. smile

And yes, we do also sing the note names of chords (as 3-note chords).
_________________________
Music School Owner
Early Childhood Music Teacher/Group Piano Teacher/Private Piano Teacher
Member of MTAC and Guild

Top
#1472577 - 07/11/10 09:24 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: dumdumdiddle]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Thank you dumdumdiddle for summary of your methods, and lando for world cup inspired revelations (perhaps we need a picture).
DDD my teaching philosophy and approach are similar to yours, except i have no training really in this area. But your words inspire me to continue working to put solfege into my teaching.

In my philosophy the childs first 'instruments' are
Singing/speech +
Dance/movement +
Story

I find that it's more interesting for the child to have these happen away from piano, and then translated to the piano, and notation. But sometimes we go straight to the piano too. But always story and words and rhytm reinforced by movement.

DDD I have a question. These are the syllables that I use; are they the same as yours?
White: do re me fa so la ti
Sharps from C# up: di ri fi si li
Flats from Db up: ra me se le te

There are nice consistencies in this set that I found somewhere. But my logical side is a little bothered by the exceptions. I think I want you to tell me the exceptions dont matter and that it's better to have a language in common with other musicians. So is this what you use? Anyone else?
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

Top
#1472591 - 07/11/10 09:55 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
dumdumdiddle Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 1263
Loc: California
Hi Canonie. The Harmony Road program I teach doesn't use the syllable variations for flats and sharps (di, ri, etc....). The basic solfege syllables are the same as you've mentioned.

We start out in Key of C and stay within the 5-finger scale; then G. Key of F is when we have the ti-flat (B-flat) and I sing it as a 'ti', but when notating it on the staff and when seeing it in the music we will call it 'ti-flat'; when singing, we'll sing 'ti'. Then we move to D minor, then A minor, where we only have the sharps in the V7 chords (do-sharp and then sol-sharp), and the stretch to ti-flat in some pieces that are in Dm. By the time they're playing in other keys that have more sharps/flats (usually about the 4th year or so), the kids have begun to learn regular letter names.
_________________________
Music School Owner
Early Childhood Music Teacher/Group Piano Teacher/Private Piano Teacher
Member of MTAC and Guild

Top
#1472609 - 07/11/10 10:40 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: dumdumdiddle]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
- ToBeYourFiddle
thank you for your quick and clear response smile I have lots to think about. I know it feels good to be familiar with a system and know how it works with the students. I see how you avoid the mouthful of "ti-flat" while still teaching that it sounds different to the usual ti. The names of all the black notes have been the tipping point, that hold me back from getting it into my brain and using this solfege.

You know it's interesting, I've just realised that recently I've been doing the same thing; singing "Ceeeee" in place of C sharp in a song after briefly mentioning that of course we know it's C sharp. Students haven't been bothered by this at all. In fast songs there's no other way.
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

Top
#1472630 - 07/11/10 11:50 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
dumdumdiddle Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 1263
Loc: California
Quote:
- ToBeYourFiddle

Ha, ha, you caught on! wink
_________________________
Music School Owner
Early Childhood Music Teacher/Group Piano Teacher/Private Piano Teacher
Member of MTAC and Guild

Top
#1472660 - 07/12/10 01:01 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: dumdumdiddle]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: dumdumdiddle
Quote:
- ToBeYourFiddle

Ha, ha, you caught on! wink

Yeh. Like ages ago
But you dropped a broad hint recently which confirmed it.
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

Top
#1472688 - 07/12/10 02:47 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: dumdumdiddle]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: dumdumdiddle
Key of F is when we have the ti-flat (B-flat) and I sing it as a 'ti'


It seems that this Harmony Road method follows solfège practise quite exactly, so I rest baffled as to why in this method they use "ti" in place of "si".

Top
#1472691 - 07/12/10 03:03 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: dumdumdiddle
Key of F is when we have the ti-flat (B-flat) and I sing it as a 'ti'


It seems that this Harmony Road method follows solfège practise quite exactly, so I rest baffled as to why in this method they use "ti" in place of "si".

to have as a drink with jam and bread perhaps? Oooo I might just pop the kettle on.

But seriously, thank you for confirming that harmony road is in line with your own experience as I had been wondering. I (think I) understand how this works now.

Top
#1472695 - 07/12/10 03:21 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Canonie

to have as a drink with jam and bread perhaps? Oooo I might just pop the kettle on.


You couldn't resist, could you?

Hey, Canonie, nice to see you, it had been a while, hadn't it.

Top
#1472697 - 07/12/10 03:29 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
The practise in solfège of pronouncing "do", whether the note be natural, sharp or flat, is a reflection of the theorhetical structure of music.

Music rests on keys, on modulations between one key and another, on modes within a key. A key is based on seven notes; exactly one do, one ré, one mi etc. And so in solfège you always have one do, one ré, one mi.

Solfège exercise lays a basis for internalizing this underlying structure, the intervals that make up a scale, the tonic, the dominant, the sensible, etc.

Solfège is a singing exercise, but it is not aimed at sucessfully singing the right tone at the right moment. It is aimed at developing the faculty of reading and writing music, taking reading in the sense of looking at a written score and understanding musically what it "says", as you understand the meaning of a written text in literature; taking writing in the sense of composing or arranging. Solfège is a quite sophisticated pedagogic technique, aimed at a philosophical, theorhetical mastery of music based on a profoundly assimilated practise.

By solfège I mean fixed-do solfège. Moveable-do solfège appears a pragmatic activity, aimed at permitting to sing in a choir.

Top
#1472701 - 07/12/10 03:35 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Thank you yes it had been months with only bit of lurking.

I was busy passing my first piano exam, and doing my very first professional (= paid) piano jobs. Right now I'm on holidays practising new rep and interspersing this with PW time, very pleasant.

Back to topic. Since Guido de Arezzo only named up to La, it's not so surprising that different tis and sis have emerged. Personally I like ti because no consonant is repeated, and sibilants are not as nice to sing. But a reason to choose si could be that ti is already used for 1/8 note in rhythm solfege ( ta ta titi titi ...)
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

Top
#1472732 - 07/12/10 05:53 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
Syboor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 56
Loc: Amsterdam
In fixed do, you never pronounce flats and sharps? What about flats and sharps that deviate from the key signature? Is there no way to pronounce them?

In moveable do, the flats and sharps that are part of the key signature are also never pronounced. At least not in major scales, and not in minor scales when using the la-based minor system. But all "non-diatonic" flats and sharps are pronounced. So in movable do, you could sing "fi" instead of "fa", and this note "fi" would trigger the feeling of the secondary dominant V/V (re-fi-la).

I would guess moveable do invented the name "ti" for the leading tone, because "si" means "so-sharp" (part of V/vi in major, and the leading tone in the la-based minor system).



Edited by Syboor (07/12/10 05:54 AM)

Top
#1472734 - 07/12/10 06:14 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Syboor]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
WELL, I actually bumped into John Colwill today (see above) and we enthusiastically discussed his books for the full 4 minutes we had before John's ride to the airport arrived (!) - and it sounds as if his method is really a fixed do of kinds - in the sense of same finger, same note. But it's all about establishing relationships too, so..... I will still await the arrival of the publications with eagerness, but my suspicion is that there really isn't a movable do method per se out there......

On the other hand, in this discussion there's been much talk of singing first - and singing before doing anything else seems like a no-brainer, until you realise that most methods do NOT start with singing first - the singing comes as an accompaniment to the music the student learns in the method, not as a precursor to the playing. It's interesting to me that the connection between solfege (fixed or movable) and singing does not seem to be mirrored in other piano methods.....
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1472737 - 07/12/10 06:55 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Syboor]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Syboor
I would guess moveable do invented the name "ti" for the leading tone, because "si" means "so-sharp" (part of V/vi in major, and the leading tone in the la-based minor system).

Of course! Si is in list of syllables a few posts back, and it allows the sharps to all end in letter "i".

Are thinking of creating a young beginners piano method Elissa? I assume P-plate are not method books?
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

Top
#1472745 - 07/12/10 07:25 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Canonie
Since Guido de Arezzo only named up to La, it's not so surprising that different tis and sis have emerged.


Si comes from Sancte Iohannes, touch it at risk to your afterlife !

I think that ti was introduced with the development of moveable-do solfège for the reason that you give, Canonie. All the more so when you add the ti ta te so si se and all of that jazz. Sol, the resolution, the sun, becomes so, a needle pulling thread.

However to me, ti do seems a tongue-twister

do ré mi fa so la ti do do ti la so fa mi ré do.

Try saying it three times fast.

Top
#1472755 - 07/12/10 07:41 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Originally Posted By: landorrano
How to display the image from this link?




[img] url [/img]
_________________________
Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax

Top
#1472765 - 07/12/10 08:21 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Studio Joe]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Studio Joe
So the do-re-mi names are not fixed pitches, but fixed places on the staff, and the key signature determines their exact pitch?


Yes and no.

You have to distinguish between the system of nomenclature and solfège.

As nomenclature, do-ré-mi are equal and interchangeable with a-b-c. Do, do-bémol, do-dièse, correspond exactly to c, c-flat, c-sharp.

In solfège, every scale is composed of a do, a ré, a mi, a fa, a sol, a la, and a si. One of each, neither more nor less. Any of these degrees may be alterated by a flat or a sharp, or a double-flat or double-sharp, but the defining framework remains intact.

In this sense, yes, the names are fixed places on the staff. You have a staff, you begin at any note and you mark seven, or eight really, succesive lines and interlines, and you have your scale. Fa sol la si do ré mi fa, for example. Except that then it has to correspond to the intervallic pattern of a major or minor scale, which is assured by the signature.

Top
#1472766 - 07/12/10 08:24 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France

Top
#1472775 - 07/12/10 08:50 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Thinking over Studio Joe's question, it seems to me that the structure of the staff with the clef and the signature is itself clearly a manifestation of the solfège philosophical framework.

Moveable-do solfège is clearly a separate phenomenon from the arch-defining solfège theorhetical framework. Or rather, it is an application of solfège, in the domaine of another musical nomenclature.

Moveable-do solfège is in no way an alternative to or an amelioration of "fixed-do solfège". Moveable-do solfège contains nothing that is not already present in solfège.

Which is not to ridicule moveable-do.

But it seems more and more clear that that it has a reason-to-be only as a complement to the a-b-c nomenclature which found itself on the margin of major theorhetical and pedagogical developments like the modern staff and the circle of fifths ... and solfège.


Edited by landorrano (07/12/10 08:51 AM)

Top
#1472779 - 07/12/10 08:55 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: Canonie

Are thinking of creating a young beginners piano method Elissa? I assume P-plate are not method books?
I'm just fascinated by my three year old going to the piano and finding Do-Re-Mi in a variety of places, and telling me with glee "Here's ANOTHER Do-Re-Mi!!!" Yes, he's been brought up on The Sound of Music (David Stratton's least favourite movie) and Singing in the Rain (David's favourite of all time), hence the Do-Re-Mi.

We also get a few "watch my mouth" shapes (this is from just after the fabulous "Good Morning" in Singing in the Rain, and is a Mi-Mi-Do shape although Tom calls it 'watch my mouth' as the lyric is in the film), and Tom's made up his own little song which starts with Do-So-So-So-So-Do, so he also plays that a lot where he can find it.

Watching him do this has made me think about the value of movable Do in working with any beginner. But with the provisional observation that Tom uses whichever lyrics he associates with that melodic contour... So it's about finding a language which underpins any lyric, and solfege seems a natural place to turn.

Having said that, this is all probably excellent material for a method! Haha!!! Hmm, where's that to-do list!!
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1472781 - 07/12/10 08:56 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Oh, and P Plate Piano are not method books. /gasp/ you mean you haven't seen them yet?! :-)
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1472787 - 07/12/10 09:12 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Amosquito Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/10
Posts: 39
Loc: Australia
I used to teach in one of those music schools where group piano lessons were taught. The method we were required to teach involved using fixed Do & singing the notes before playing. I loved the singing before playing stuff, but it only seemed to work with the C major stuff - once we moved onto other keys it never felt right: not for me or for the kids. When the kids progressed to using note names instead of fixed Do (generally by the time they moved to private instead of group lessons), there was a huge period of adjustment.

Elissa, if you could create a movable Do piano method, that would be brilliant. I recall as a child transposing things as your son is doing. I think it's quite natural in the context of tonal western music (which, let's face it, is mostly what children here are going to hear) to use these relationships as a basis for understanding.
_________________________
Amos

Facilitator of learning
Lover of pianos and singing
Wannabe singer/songwriter

Top
#1473053 - 07/12/10 05:14 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne


Watching him do this has made me think about the value of movable Do in working with any beginner.


I don't follow your reasoning.

Top
#1473076 - 07/12/10 05:56 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11556
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne


Watching him do this has made me think about the value of movable Do in working with any beginner.


I don't follow your reasoning.


I do.

I should add that that this point I can move in movable or fixed do as well as ABC's by ear or reading. What you are taught is excellent and I wish it existed over here and started early. It is not the only way of approaching even fixd do - there are variants because the world is wide.

I related to notes in the way Elissa's son does and having nothing else I was able to do a fair bit with music. I never experienced that split between sound we hear or imagine, sound we produce, and sound we "see" in the score.

Top
#1473079 - 07/12/10 06:01 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne


Watching him do this has made me think about the value of movable Do in working with any beginner.


I don't follow your reasoning.
My reasoning is thus:it is entirely natural and enjoyable to start at the piano from songs the child already knows. Children can enjoy the mastery of recognising and performing patterns. Melodic patterns can be performed in any of the 12 semitone options the keyboard layout represents (some easier to locate than others, depending on the melodic contour). The use of consistent descriptors of each scale degree (whether you say 1, 2, 3 or Do-Re-Mi or some other sequential pattern) allows the child to discover each different permutation of the contour on the keyboard while recognising the structural sameness of the pattern.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1473170 - 07/12/10 09:41 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
I can't say strongly enough how useful this discussion is to me just now. I have my philosophy of how I teach, but right in the middle of this complex web is a bridge that is rickety and unstable. That bridge is about internalising pitches and their patterns - Elissa your post above describes it perfectly.

My feeling is that discovering transpositions of known tunes is a way to internalise scale degrees, it's the way it happened for me. The scale degrees can be identified and numbered for the student afterwards I think. So my revamped "method" for say first year or so will look something like this:


1. All early pieces are songs where words and tune are very singable, addictive, appealing. These either have a simple piano accompaniment, or the piano part is exactly the same as vocal line. Lots and lots of pieces here and many memorised. A good proportion of canons (rounds) so that student learns to sing and play in polyphony as early as possible, and develops listening.

2. These early pieces are (often) a bit faster and more complex that what you find in average method book, so listening and coordination is developed beyond students overall level. In other words lack of fluent reading at beginning of learning is not a barrier to playing harder music.

NEW 3. Teach pitch names as do re mi (fixed) so that student can learn to sing what is written, write what is sung, and begins to hear music notation, and composes own songs. This is the NEW for me part as at the moment we sing "c d eeee" but it's not as Good to Sing for students. Anything that helps to sing and hear notation has got to be helpful I think.

NEW 4. Do a lot more transposing (every song or nearly?) and into more remote keys. And make sure that there is exposure to every key in these early pieces. (? review early pieces and transpose & rewrite some - I have begun to do this in the last 6 months, more is neede and maybe some new songs.)

5. Teach 5 note scales, major then minor, then full octave, as soon as physically possible. Label these as eg C major, D minor, etc to introduce letter names quite early, but sing as do re me fa etc.

6. Put pulse into the feet and internalise the counts (so that the teacher (almost) never has to count out loud while student is at the piano (arrrgh, just my quirky pet hate)). Use body movement and simple pulse exercises - saves lots of pain later.

7. Rhythm solfege: copying, memorising, writing and reading to level and complication well beyond what you meet if you begin in a method book such as Piano Adventures. Rhythm reading and fluency is developed beyond playing level.

I need to print this out so I do my homework. That's not a complete list (I haven't mention articulation and relationship to language, or story --> dynamics, for examples) but it's some basics. Lots of gratitude to you people for thought provoking posts and useful information and experiences.


Edited by Canonie (07/12/10 09:47 PM)
Edit Reason: easier to read

Top
#1473179 - 07/12/10 09:53 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Canonie, you're reading my mind.....
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1473194 - 07/12/10 10:12 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
smile yes i'm psychic hehe. I suppose you mean that this brief method outline is similar to your teaching? Do you really do the stomping for pulse, and side to side stomping for 3/4. I can never find anyone who does this within regular piano!

I forgot to say, no I haven't opened a P-plate book yet, I'll remember to have look when next at my local. Because I favour the use of the very singable songs for first year (or so) and have collection that is working well, I'm not looking for music at level below preliminary. Unless these book are full of highly singable songs (my assumptions here..).

The trouble with using existing songs is that they might all be in simple major sounds, might all have too simple rhythm and structure, might not be pianistic for little hands, might not have interesting or relevant lyrics, might not sound cool to your friends, and I don't know the songs that kids know. I hope that's not confusing but I'm saying that I haven't found the material I want in existing resources, but it might be out there.

But some very simple twinkle-star-type of songs can be good for transposing. So I like to include some of these too, but my own with more interesting lyrics wink


Edited by Canonie (07/12/10 10:15 PM)
Edit Reason: last sentence

Top
#1473218 - 07/12/10 10:54 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Canonie, check out my Guided Tour of the Little Peppers where I suggest teachers get their students dancing to 5/4!! And other things I think you'll find are very congruent with your ideas here... I didn't include so many of these ideas in the Getting to teacher guides for a variety of reasons... And I think you'll be surprised by the contents of P Plate Piano - I have no idea what you are expecting, but whatever it is I think you'll be surprised.

[well, now I've set myself up, haven't I?!]

Having said that, the collection was not compiled with the notion of highly singable songs as the *primary* criterion for inclusion, so maybe you'll be surprised and then put the books back down again!!
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1473296 - 07/13/10 03:37 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Canonie]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Canonie
my revamped "method"


So, at what time can I bring my little critter over?

Top
#1473374 - 07/13/10 08:33 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3151
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
Watching him do this has made me think about the value of movable Do in working with any beginner. But with the provisional observation that Tom uses whichever lyrics he associates with that melodic contour... So it's about finding a language which underpins any lyric, and solfege seems a natural place to turn.


It seems to me that movable do is an "ear" method while fixed do is an "eye" method.

(sorry for confusing two threads)
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#1473416 - 07/13/10 10:41 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
My reasoning is thus


You seem to present the example of your son to underline the advantage of moveable-do solfège over fixed-do solfège.

If this is your idea, then I don't think that your reasoning is well-founded. A child doing the same activity but using a fixed-do system, will have the same experience.

Taking Frères Jacques, if he finds the notes on the piano and sings starting from do "do ré mi do" and then from ré "ré mi fa ré" and then from mi "mi fa sol mi" ...

I don't think that singing "do ré mi" in each of these three tonalities is really a simpler approach, or more efficient pedagogically.

However, I agree wholeheartedly that your example begs for a solfège activity of some sort, for the reasons that you give.

Top
#1473440 - 07/13/10 11:33 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
dumdumdiddle Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 1263
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
My reasoning is thus


You seem to present the example of your son to underline the advantage of moveable-do solfège over fixed-do solfège.

If this is your idea, then I don't think that your reasoning is well-founded. A child doing the same activity but using a fixed-do system, will have the same experience.

Taking Frères Jacques, if he finds the notes on the piano and sings starting from do "do ré mi do" and then from ré "ré mi fa ré" and then from mi "mi fa sol mi" ...

I don't think that singing "do ré mi" in each of these three tonalities is really a simpler approach, or more efficient pedagogically.

However, I agree wholeheartedly that your example begs for a solfège activity of some sort, for the reasons that you give.



I agree.
_________________________
Music School Owner
Early Childhood Music Teacher/Group Piano Teacher/Private Piano Teacher
Member of MTAC and Guild

Top
#1473508 - 07/13/10 01:22 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: dumdumdiddle]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3151
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: dumdumdiddle
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
My reasoning is thus


You seem to present the example of your son to underline the advantage of moveable-do solfège over fixed-do solfège.

If this is your idea, then I don't think that your reasoning is well-founded. A child doing the same activity but using a fixed-do system, will have the same experience.

Taking Frères Jacques, if he finds the notes on the piano and sings starting from do "do ré mi do" and then from ré "ré mi fa ré" and then from mi "mi fa sol mi" ...

I don't think that singing "do ré mi" in each of these three tonalities is really a simpler approach, or more efficient pedagogically.

However, I agree wholeheartedly that your example begs for a solfège activity of some sort, for the reasons that you give.



I agree.


I don't think I do.

If fixed do worked that way, then the same child could also use C D E, Db Eb F, all over the keyboard.

And they can't. Not as a beginner anyway.

But they can sing do re mi starting on any note after one viewing of Sound of Music. It's more basic.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#1473645 - 07/13/10 05:12 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: TimR]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
There is clearly confusion regarding what scale degree means. If landorrano and dumdumdiddle don't see a value in a child recognising that a melody creates the shape of scale degree 5 to 1 then they will not see a value in working in a system where scale degrees are the means of finding different shapes on the keyboard. Teachers who do perceive a value in having three year olds recognise tonal function will take a different approach.

It doesn't matter if it's called 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 or Do-Re-Mi-Fa-So-La-Ti or if it's called the seven colours of the rainbow or any other sequence of 7 things, it's about finding a way to describe contour that can occur on any pitch.

Landorrano, it's not my mission to persuade you. You asked for my reasoning, and my experience as a student, as a teacher and now as a parent are all in accord regarding this point: my goal is to have a uniform way of describing scale function, and fixed do (or any other kind of note naming system) does not meet this goal. Your goals are clearly not quite the same as mine, otherwise we would find some meeting ground, instead of your thorough incomprehension as to why I take the view I do.

Music is chock-a-block with absolutes (middle C is middle C and there ain't nothing you can do about it) and utter relativism (sometimes C is the tonic, sometimes C is the leading note, sometimes C is the subdominant, and so forth). I'm looking for a way of harnessing a child's natural inclination to find pattern by having a way of saying Tonic, Leading Note, Subdominant etc. in a single syllable such as Do, Ti, Fa etc. And I'm interested in whether there are any piano methods that use scale function as the starting point for learning.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1473666 - 07/13/10 05:46 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
Your goals are clearly not quite the same as mine, otherwise we would find some meeting ground, instead of your thorough incomprehension as to why I take the view I do.


Well, I do think that we have a meeting ground. I am in agreement with what everything you are saying and with what you propose to do.

Really, I have no qualm with your manner to conceive things, quite the contrary. And I am not trying to convince you to abandon your plans and take up fixed-do solfège.

Only, I am quite sure that it is mistaken to think that fixed-do solfège is any less valuble than moveable-do solfège in bringing a child into the realm of scale degrees and functions.

Top
#1473674 - 07/13/10 06:01 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Ah, well now it is time for me to ask why *you* think that scale degree function is equally prioritised in fixed-do? My current perspective is that fixed-do is a note-naming system, as well as implying a certain teaching approach. I am suspecting that it is the APPROACH that you find covers the scale degree function - am I getting close here?
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1474014 - 07/14/10 07:49 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
There are two sides of the fixed-do coin.

There is fixed-do as nomenclature.

Then there is fixed-do solfège, which is the study of elements permitting to read, write, play or sing a score. Reading, writing etc, have to be understood in the broadest musical sense, not simply being able to name a note.

On the one hand, with bémols (flats), dièses (sharps), and bécarres (naturals), there are dozens of notes names, as there are with the a-b-c nomenclature.

On the other hand, the practise in fixed-do solfège to pronounce the name of notes while leaving out alterations and accidentals, expresses the structure of each tonality as a scale of seven degrees, each with a specific function within the tonality. For this reason, syllables like di, ra, ri, have no place.

In every instance a note is a specific tone but it is at the same time a degree within a tonality.

Thus, it is not simply a question of approach, of a way of using solfège that deals with scale degree function. Quite the contrary, this is the starting point of solfège.

Top
#1474033 - 07/14/10 08:36 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3151
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: landorrano

Thus, it is not simply a question of approach, of a way of using solfège that deals with scale degree function. Quite the contrary, this is the starting point of solfège.


I'm trying to understand, don't want to miss an approach that works. I've found movable do enormously useful personally, but then my needs may not be the same.

Just as an example. In your house, if you live in the US, there are a large number of 60 Hz pitch sources because of the electric power. Your older fluourescent lights, your oven, your toaster, etc., all buzz at 60 hz, though we normally don't pay attention. That note is halfway between B (roughly 62 Hz) and Bb (about 58 Hz). It doesn't have a name, either letter or solfege. If you had to, I guess you could call it B for convenience, which would be si or ti in fixed do, but it really isn't.

If I tell a child to start on that note and sing Frere Jacques, she will sing do-re-mi-do. Easily. If I tell her to sing Three Blind mice, she will sing mi-re-do. Same thing, no problems. That conveys the tonal center starting with a random note, or in this case not even a note.

It seems to me that doing the same thing with either fixed do or letter names would require an extra intellectual step. Doesn't it mean you need to understand key signature and a bit of theory?
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#1474039 - 07/14/10 08:52 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Syboor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 56
Loc: Amsterdam
> "On the other hand, the practise in fixed-do solfège to pronounce the name of notes while leaving out alterations and accidentals, expresses the structure of each tonality as a scale of seven degrees, each with a specific function within the tonality. For this reason, syllables like di, ra, ri, have no place."

Please don't think that syllables like di, ra, ri are common place in moveable do! The "special" syllables used for diatonic music are "re", "le" and "te" in the do-based minor system, OR "li" and "si" in the la-based minor (but you only use one of these systems, not both).

"di", "ra", "ri" would only be needed in music with chromatic passing tones, secondary dominants or other non-diatonic tones. And because these notes are so rare and special, they trigger a strong expectation of half step resolution. If you sing "fa", you know it is business as usual. If you sing "fi", you very strongly expect it to resolve to "so", and you might even hear the V/V chord (re-fi-la) in your head and expect a half cadence to V.


Edited by Syboor (07/14/10 10:32 AM)

Top
#1474275 - 07/14/10 03:49 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Syboor]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Landorrano, then I see no difference between the two systems apart from the immensely significant point that when one uses fixed do as nomenclature it would be confusing to then use the same syllables to indicate a function that is transposable. Thanks for that clarification regarding the two aspects of the system you are using.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1474608 - 07/15/10 02:48 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
I am happy to have clarified you.

I agree that it is immensely significant, the dual nature of do-ré-mi. Although it is in no way confusing.

Top
#1474609 - 07/15/10 02:58 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Hahaha!! Well, obviously not to you.... but I suspect others will beg to differ!!!
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1474617 - 07/15/10 03:30 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: Elissa Milne]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
Hahaha!! Well, obviously not to you.... but I suspect others will beg to differ!!!


No problem! Or as they say, no problemo!

Top
#1474630 - 07/15/10 04:05 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: TimR]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: TimR

It seems to me that doing the same thing with either fixed do or letter names would require an extra intellectual step. Doesn't it mean you need to understand key signature and a bit of theory?


I want to wrap up the discussion, or at least my part in it. But I want to say a word in response to your question.

One thing that has impressed me about the do-ré-mi nomenclature is the ease with which children learn it. "Do ré mi fa sol la si do do si la sol fa mi ré do". I am sure that DumDumDiddle will confirm.

If you like, it is a language, and once inside of this language a child moves freely, and immediately begins to sense the structure and to use it to his advantage.

Top
#1474699 - 07/15/10 08:26 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3151
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: landorrano
One thing that has impressed me about the do-ré-mi nomenclature is the ease with which children learn it. "Do ré mi fa sol la si do do si la sol fa mi ré do". I am sure that DumDumDiddle will confirm.

If you like, it is a language, and once inside of this language a child moves freely, and immediately begins to sense the structure and to use it to his advantage.


Yeah, I don't want to beat a sick horse either.

I agree with the ease. For me personally do-mi-sol means something independent of C, E, G, in that it expresses an interval relationship between notes. I can hear it, I can sing it, independent of the starting note or key.

D-F#-A does the same thing, just as fast. But it took me years to get to that point, whereas do-mi-sol made sense the first time I heard it. YMMV.

I think that re-fa-la (fixed do) would do the same thing eventually as well. But it requires learning. It is not intuitive - right now it means nothing to me.

D-F#-A actually does a little more than do-mi-sol. Though I don't have perfect pitch, I've played and sung D-F#-A so many times that my fingers can find it and I can usually sing it cold pretty close. So in a way it's more precise, but that also limits the range it applies to.

My child is in school choir learning movable do. She says it does not make sense to her, do should be C. Movable do does not help her to sightread, whereas it is the basis for my approach. She is an ear person, just memorized the entire VBS repertoire in one sitting listening to a CD, having never seen the sheet music. I am an eye person, if I can't visualize it I have great difficulty. I don't understand this part of it, seems like it should be the other way around.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#1474734 - 07/15/10 10:01 AM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11556
Loc: Canada
Landorrano, the things that you are studying are interesting and valuable so personally I am glad that you are sharing them. There are aspects to music that maybe get neglected, especially for the combined way they are (not?) being taught. What I object to, however, is that you state absolutely and in a voice of authority that other approaches are bad or wrong. You can only do so if you have studied these other approaches. If you are a musician or teacher with vast experience in music on a practical level - single instruments, orchestra, choir, teaching a variety of students with different abilities - then you will have experienced what works where, and how. But afaik, that is not your background. Like me, you are a student who is still learning. You have learned some poweful things that don't seem to be taught much so you are sharing them and that part is fantastic. But when you dismiss what others know without actually being familiar with them, that is wrong. It is especially wrong when you sound like an authority because you risk leading people astray who will think that you know more than you do. In my experience, those who know a lot are the least likely to say so - they are humbled by the knowledge of just how vast and varied it is.

Music has this powerful way in which things work together. One thing has two or three faces and they all fit together. The system of learning that you are following manages to put these things together in a simple way, so that they are real to a student and accessible in real time. They are not learning *about* it in a book with paper, divorced from the actual music they are playing or singing. This theory is real and alive *during* singing or playing. There is a wholeness to it. I do understand your enthusiasm and urgency for bringing it across. However, it is not the only way that it can be studied.

I have learned it through movable do solfege, but in a manner that when I go to pitch names the two aspects are combined in exactly the same way. If I sing pitch names I also hear the movable do solfege underneath which gives me degrees and the functional quality of those degrees. If I sing movable do solfege, the letter pitch-names are sitting underneath. Since I am able to do this, I can also see the strengths and weaknesses of yours, as well as mine. When I consider it then I'm also looking at situations in choir, composition exercises, where it's put into practice. That is where I am coming from. My own teacher can move from fixed do solfege to movable do solfege, can use letter or solfege names (fixed), in the blink of an eye. I am still weighing all of this, but will absolutely not ever say this or that is wrong. It is this dismissing of other systems that I object to.

Really, to know what might be better where, if there is a better, we would need to hear from someone who has mastered both approaches and has full knowledge and experience in music. That is not me and it is not you. Personally I would be happy if you shared what you know without stating the wrongness of things you haven't studied. Too many people do that, imho. Music exists by itself, and can be approached in various ways.

Top
#1474935 - 07/15/10 03:18 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: keystring]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Keystring, I assure you that I am humble. Really, I am. Probably the most humble in the world!

Seriously, though, I haven't said that there is anything wrong about moveable-do solfège, or anything else. Neither do I think that there is anything wrong with moveable-do solfège.

Top
#1474939 - 07/15/10 03:25 PM Re: Movable Do Piano Methods? [Re: landorrano]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11556
Loc: Canada
I wasn't sure, Landorrano. You had seemed to draw conclusions about moveable do and making direct statements and that made me uncomfortable. What you are presenting adds a new dimension to what I know and is both useful and interesting. I can see a reason for moveable too, however, and maybe it also depends how it is taught and what is done with it. Thanks for responding. smile

Top
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >

Moderator:  Ken Knapp 
What's Hot!!
LAST CALL - Piano Newsletter Ideas!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
137 registered (A Guy, accordeur, 88 Fingers Jeff, 48 invisible), 1673 Guests and 23 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75495 Members
42 Forums
156105 Topics
2292413 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Good popular and classical songs for a piano gig?
by Tony Romo
07/23/14 07:13 PM
Famous mistakes by concert pianists
by rov
07/23/14 06:40 PM
Korg Triton>midi>us
b>lightning to usb>iPad mini>Garageband

by SilentMHP
07/23/14 04:54 PM
Pianist Martin Malmgren Performing in Helsinki
by Piano World
07/23/14 04:25 PM
In need for that screaming, dirty, funky, rhodes sound
by Thomas B
07/23/14 03:36 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission