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#1470874 - 07/08/10 11:29 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Elissa Milne]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
The thread has started a (somewhat predictable) downhill slide. I'm off to bed now, but if the discussion continues on it's current trajectory, I'll likely close it tomorrow to keep the peace.

g'night all!

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#1470875 - 07/08/10 11:30 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: theJourney]
Doctor Ivory Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/08/10
Posts: 3
Just to clarify a point . . . Homosexuality is fundamentally biological, it is not a choice in any rational sense and, in light of the scientific evidence that has been accumulating for the past 40 years, it can in no way be regarded as a moral issue in contemporary society. Pedophilia on the other hand is a potentially harmful psychological disorder completely distinct from homosexuality, which is not a mental disorder. I can provide numerous scientific data to back all this up. Just say the word and I will post the sources.
_________________________
"You can't expect perfection. Even from me."

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#1470877 - 07/08/10 11:36 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Kreisler]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19285
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
The thread has started a (somewhat predictable) downhill slide.....

Yes -- and it's a shame. For a while it was a pretty high-level discussion of tough issues.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1470879 - 07/08/10 11:37 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: abcdefgh]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3617
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: bryanw
You know... for a group of such intelligent individuals...

Some peoples views on homosexuality is absolutely moronic.

Some of you should just stick to discussing Beethoven. Your views on other topics make you appear like small minded bigots.


At least it's heartening that the number of small-minded bigots unearthed by this thread is small. Looking on the bright side.

-J
_________________________
Schoenberg op.10+k, Beethoven op.100+k for k=9
Schubert D.899/4, Chopin op.25/2

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#1470897 - 07/09/10 12:12 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: beet31425]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8695
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: bryanw
You know... for a group of such intelligent individuals...

Some peoples views on homosexuality is absolutely moronic.

Some of you should just stick to discussing Beethoven. Your views on other topics make you appear like small minded bigots.


At least it's heartening that the number of small-minded bigots unearthed by this thread is small. Looking on the bright side.

-J

We can always look on the bright side. The trajectory of this thread has not particularly surprised me, but it has been interesting to follow. The thread need not be closed if folks remain civil. And to the social liberals (of which I am one): this isn't really the proper venue, is it? We need to chill out.

Let the conservatives show their true colours.
_________________________
Jason

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#1470903 - 07/09/10 12:29 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Schubertian]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
This thread is sad. Makes me realize exactly which members here are compete morons. Oh well..
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1470911 - 07/09/10 01:06 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: argerichfan]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3885
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: argerichfan



We can always look on the bright side. The trajectory of this thread has not particularly surprised me, but it has been interesting to follow. The thread need not be closed if folks remain civil. And to the social liberals (of which I am one): this isn't really the proper venue, is it? We need to chill out.

Let the conservatives show their true colours.


well said.

I started to respond to some schocking statements in this thread on a few occasions but was too discouraged to bother really.
Mattardo, open your mind's eyes. Your arguments are anachronistic to say the least. The world has moved on.

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#1470919 - 07/09/10 01:34 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: theJourney]
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2076
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Horowitz did famously say however that as far as he was concerned there are only three kinds of pianists: gay pianists, Jewish pianists or bad pianists.


Antiquated and a little naive sounding, to my ears. To say nothing of ethnocentric, sexist, culture-centric . . .

There are only two kinds of people in this world: people who try to separate the world into kinds of people, and people who don't.

cool wink
_________________________
Charles Lang
Working on: A Night in Tunisia; Memories of Tomorrow (Keith Jarrett).
Just started: Brazilian Like (Michel Petrucciani)

Baldwin Model R (1974), Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Rieger-Kloss 42.5" vertical

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#1470921 - 07/09/10 01:36 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Andromaque]
Nikolas Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 4982
Loc: Europe
If you think about it, the members offering such AMAZINGLY limited views are very... few. I could count maybe two, and I can only remember the name of one member, right of the bat (sp?)!

The % seem to be quite nice. If only 2 members openely offer such offensive views, it means that they count for less than the 2% of the general posters in here!

Never mind then?

There's always going to be people who will think they are trying to rationalize something, only to polute it with fear, and hatred!

So never mind...

Many of my good friends and co-workers are gay and I have little trouble with them. In fact I largely prefer their company than those of 'football fan/ beer drinking/ awful driving' mentality! wink
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#1470924 - 07/09/10 02:05 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Nikolas]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1402
Loc: near keyboard, mouth open
To reply to whomever it was that said marrying off young teens, who then become mothers by age 14 or so, is just a matter of culture and not wrong in any absolute sense:

The problem is that all too often very young mothers die in childbirth, and often their babies die as well. There is also a horribly high rate of obstetric fistulas in such girls (look it up if you don't know what that is). Just because they are biologically able to conceive doesn't mean they are biologically able to manage a pregnancy. Fortunately, this issue is getting a lot more attention lately, and in the countries where child brides are common, the practice is being discouraged.

About Pletnev, well, the truth will come out somehow or other (I hope), and our opinions won't matter.

Elene
(student of a gay guy who's a perfect gentleman)
_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#1470956 - 07/09/10 05:13 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Schubertian]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7422
Originally Posted By: Schubertian

THis is my swan song to Piano Forums. I've got better things to do with my precious time than spend it reading trash like this.


Don't go. Don't let the ignorant bigots win. I agree with your feelings, and that amazingly offensive stuff should have been stopped earlier (and what is left should get deleted), but still, you are infinitely more valuable to us than that twaddle. And note that although the medieval one with the ignorant issues did lots of postings, the actual numbers of people who are more reasonable, educated, and humane is much much larger.

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#1470958 - 07/09/10 05:19 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: beet31425]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7422
Originally Posted By: beet31425


At least it's heartening that the number of small-minded bigots unearthed by this thread is small. Looking on the bright side.



That is a good point.

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#1470963 - 07/09/10 05:56 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Kreisler]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6075
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
I am off to bed too (well, with my laptop to do some work smile ), and really hope that either this thread has gone back on track by tomorrow morning or that it has been closed. blush
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1470964 - 07/09/10 05:59 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Nikolas]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7422
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
.....being married with two children counters that pretty well....

Not really.

Don't mean about you or anyone in particular, just in general.

And if what you mean is that it "works" in Greece, we take your word for it.
I dunno... could be my 'greek' thinking here, but it seems to offer some kind of proof about ones sexuality!



It really doesn't offer proof of anything. I know a couple of men who fathered children (and who are now grandfathers, incidentally) who identify themselves as being gay. The fact that they were able to have sex with a woman doesn't mean that it was their main sexual interest and desire.

This reminds me of a Catholic guy in a small town I where I used to live. He was married and had five children before he faced up to the fact that something was really wrong, and that he was mainly sexually interested in other men. He did something interesting; he tried to file a lawsuit to get the Catholic Church to pay child support, on the grounds that they had brainwashed him into assuming he was straight and having all those kids. The case was tossed, but probably more because of lack of good legal representation and money than anything else. I talked to him about it once, and think he was quite sincere about it.

Sexuality seems to be far more flexible that the labels currently being used to describe it. Some people did a study of the sexual practices of migrant farm workers (all men) in the part of the world where I live. They found that a large majority were having sex with each other, even though when at home, they were with their wives. And interestingly, depending on what they actually did, some denied it was even homosexual, in spite of the physical facts.

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#1470973 - 07/09/10 07:06 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: wr]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5831
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Schubertian
THis is my swan song to Piano Forums. I've got better things to do with my precious time than spend it reading trash like this.
Don't go. Don't let the ignorant bigots win. I agree with your feelings, and that amazingly offensive stuff should have been stopped earlier (and what is left should get deleted), but still, you are infinitely more valuable to us than that twaddle. And note that although the medieval one with the ignorant issues did lots of postings, the actual numbers of people who are more reasonable, educated, and humane is much much larger.
+1
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1470974 - 07/09/10 07:08 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Schubertian]
Mattardo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 1306
Originally Posted By: Schubertian
Quote:
Boo...Hoo. It must suck to not be able to adjust to society along with the rest of the human race. I suppose we should start excusing all sorts of behavior just to cater to a minority of social deviants? Almost like an unspoken threat: "Please approve of my homosexuality, or I will rape little boys. I will have no choice in the matter! Society is forcing my hand!"


Hey - guess what? - gay people don't think like this. M - your ideas are too pedestrian, too uninteresting to even refute. But for the good of your soul, as an exercise, you should refute them yourself. And start with this premise: gay people are just average joes and jills, just like anyone else - tax paying, responsible adults who don't want pity or 'permission' or scolding or boring hand wringing. We pretty much just want to be left alone to live our own lives without being fired or beaten up or witch hunted or evicted or otherwise slammed around.

THis is my swan song to Piano Forums. I've got better things to do with my precious time than spend it reading trash like this.


If you had bothered to read what this was in response to, you would have noticed I was dismissing this argument that was made by another poster.
I very clearly stated that a pederast should not be seen as a homosexual reacting against discrimination!

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#1470984 - 07/09/10 07:38 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: wr]
izaldu Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 1248
Loc:
I am not scandalized by anybody's views. Few things scandalize me anymore, let alone opinions.

Having said this, homosexuality is natural, as natural as drinking water, having blond hair, having big hands or schizophrenia. Is schizophrenia not natural? Please.

I am very disappointed that homosexuality was thrown into the discussion almost from minute one. We were talking paedophilia. By the way, i am a heterosexual.

Sad state of things. Can't say i didn't see this one coming though.

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#1470986 - 07/09/10 07:48 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Mattardo]
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2501
Loc: Maine
Schubertian, Read through the posts again and I think you will see that the majority here would agree with what you say (I do). Just as in society (and this is a little microcosm of society) there will always be some folks with opposite views, some more outspoken and closed minded than others. It's really a shame that there are folks here that are determined to make the Pletnev issue into a "homosexual" issue rather than what it is, a possible case of pedophilia. A discussion of homosexuality, the morals, it's place in music etc. should be a separate thread (and I suspect a thread that wouldn't live long).

I hope you reconsider your "swan song". And then again, this is just a forum and not really worth getting too heated over. We have enough to deal with with in the real world. smile


Edited by Peyton (07/09/10 07:58 AM)
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#1471003 - 07/09/10 08:31 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: currawong]
moscheles001 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/13/08
Posts: 751
Loc: Northeast Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Schubertian
THis is my swan song to Piano Forums. I've got better things to do with my precious time than spend it reading trash like this.
Don't go. Don't let the ignorant bigots win. I agree with your feelings, and that amazingly offensive stuff should have been stopped earlier (and what is left should get deleted), but still, you are infinitely more valuable to us than that twaddle. And note that although the medieval one with the ignorant issues did lots of postings, the actual numbers of people who are more reasonable, educated, and humane is much much larger.
+1


++1

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#1471022 - 07/09/10 09:23 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: moscheles001]
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1652
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Oh, my. What's been going on here in the last 17 hours?

Ah, well. At least it's a distraction from the Lebron James fiasco.
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#1471033 - 07/09/10 09:43 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Hank Drake]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: Hank Drake
Oh, my. What's been going on here in the last 17 hours?


The usual. wink

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#1471037 - 07/09/10 09:55 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Kreisler]
moscheles001 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/13/08
Posts: 751
Loc: Northeast Pennsylvania
To quote my mother: "We just can't have nice things, can we?"


Edited by moscheles001 (07/09/10 09:56 AM)

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#1471038 - 07/09/10 09:55 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: charleslang]
FunkyLlama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 359
Originally Posted By: charleslang
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Horowitz did famously say however that as far as he was concerned there are only three kinds of pianists: gay pianists, Jewish pianists or bad pianists.


Antiquated and a little naive sounding, to my ears. To say nothing of ethnocentric, sexist, culture-centric . . .

There are only two kinds of people in this world: people who try to separate the world into kinds of people, and people who don't.

cool wink
Don't you think that was most probably said with tongue firmly in cheek?

On an unrelated note, +1 again to the 'don't go Schubertian' crowd. It would be a shame to be put off by what really is a tiny minority.

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#1471040 - 07/09/10 09:58 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: FunkyLlama]
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1652
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Originally Posted By: FunkyLlama
Originally Posted By: charleslang
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Horowitz did famously say however that as far as he was concerned there are only three kinds of pianists: gay pianists, Jewish pianists or bad pianists.


Antiquated and a little naive sounding, to my ears. To say nothing of ethnocentric, sexist, culture-centric . . .

There are only two kinds of people in this world: people who try to separate the world into kinds of people, and people who don't.

cool wink
Don't you think that was most probably said with tongue firmly in cheek?



Completely tongue-in-cheek. Rachmaninoff was neither Jewish nor gay, but Horowitz revered him.
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#1471074 - 07/09/10 11:07 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Hank Drake]
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2076
Originally Posted By: Hank Drake
Originally Posted By: FunkyLlama
Originally Posted By: charleslang
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Horowitz did famously say however that as far as he was concerned there are only three kinds of pianists: gay pianists, Jewish pianists or bad pianists.


Antiquated and a little naive sounding, to my ears. To say nothing of ethnocentric, sexist, culture-centric . . .

There are only two kinds of people in this world: people who try to separate the world into kinds of people, and people who don't.

cool wink
Don't you think that was most probably said with tongue firmly in cheek?



Completely tongue-in-cheek. Rachmaninoff was neither Jewish nor gay, but Horowitz revered him.


Maybe that can excuse it, but I don't understand the humor. Just speaking honestly.
_________________________
Charles Lang
Working on: A Night in Tunisia; Memories of Tomorrow (Keith Jarrett).
Just started: Brazilian Like (Michel Petrucciani)

Baldwin Model R (1974), Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Rieger-Kloss 42.5" vertical

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#1471081 - 07/09/10 11:14 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: charleslang]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19285
Loc: New York
OK, let's take the challenge of explaining a joke -- rarely easy.

He happened to notice (as I think would have been impossible not to notice, if you were in that crowd) that at the time, a great many top pianists were Jewish, and many others were gay -- and especially because he was both, and probably also to tweak some very fine pianists of his acquaintance who were neither Jewish nor gay, he made an exaggeration out of it.

(OK, not a great explanation, but I said it wasn't easy......) ha

P.S. I think it was a great and hilarious joke.
BTW....Are there any other (arguably) great funny lines attributed to Horowitz?? I don't think so.....

edit: I googled, and got reminded of this other one (which I don't think is that great, because I don't think it was particularly true, and IMO this one doesn't work if it wasn't):

"My face is my passport."

....as well as this other one, which IS funny but probably wasn't intended to be:

"My future is in my past and my past is my present. I must now make the present my future."


Edited by Mark_C (07/09/10 11:23 AM)
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1471088 - 07/09/10 11:24 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Mark_C]
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1652
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
BTW....Are there any other (arguably) great funny lines attributed to Horowitz?? I don't think so.....



"When I go onstage, I want to make sure everything is perfect. I check all the details, to make sure my shoes are tied, to make sure my fly is closed. If they are open they are terrible."

"Scarlatti is the master of Grosse Kleinkunst, which is preferable to Kleine Grosskunst."


Edited by Hank Drake (07/09/10 11:28 AM)
Edit Reason: another quote
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#1471093 - 07/09/10 11:28 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Hank Drake]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19285
Loc: New York
LOL.....even without knowing that line (as I didn't), don't most of us have dreams where we're out there playing the piano, and we realize we forgot to put our clothes on.....
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1471101 - 07/09/10 11:48 AM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Mark_C]
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2076
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
. . . probably also to tweak some very fine pianists of his acquaintance who were neither Jewish nor gay, he made an exaggeration out of it.


That was my original interpretation of it. I'm sure it's fun to push the 'pendulum' the other way, since there has been so much historical oppression of both groups. But I still just don't approve of any group talk. For all the enlightenment in this thread, may I remind that it's a truism that humor is not any excuse.


Edited by charleslang (07/09/10 11:49 AM)
_________________________
Charles Lang
Working on: A Night in Tunisia; Memories of Tomorrow (Keith Jarrett).
Just started: Brazilian Like (Michel Petrucciani)

Baldwin Model R (1974), Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Rieger-Kloss 42.5" vertical

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#1471120 - 07/09/10 12:05 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Mattardo]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Mattardo
So you are willing to reject thousands of years of collective human experience, simply because you personally think they were all wrong? Millions of humans got it wrong - but you get it. You're enlightened?
They were just all incredibly ignorant and stupid, and only now can their gross stupidity be lifted by the very vocal protests of certain individuals? That's very arrogant. How do you propose that it hurts nobody? You are making the claim, not me.


Hey, Rettardo, how do you possibly know it was thousands of years of collective human experience? Did you ever think that maybe people were too afraid to admit such things? Come on, even a common 10 year old knows our basic human history. I'm sure you do too.

On a side note, I guess Tchaikovsky was a moron, pretending to be gay when he really wasn't. Because it's not human nature. Oh and gay people DELIBERATELY act gay, just so that they date a sex they don't really like anyway. Would you willingly date another guy? Just out of spite, or out of - I don't know what, you make it up. Hey, you know what, tonight instead of spending the night with my boyfriend, I'm going to head to a bar and chat up some girls. If I'm lucky enough, maybe one of them will come home with me!
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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Today at 06:40 AM
Temperature and tuning
by Beemer
Today at 04:46 AM
Tired Fingers
by adanepst
Today at 01:45 AM
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