Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too

I was actually a touch sickened when I heard the suggestion that clergy might be penalized by law if they refuse to perform same-sex marriages.

Take two aspirins and go to bed? Preferably with someone of a different sex?

Yeh, human rights of the clergy to discriminate. By the way, I take it Votes for Women is still controversial in your book? Of course then there's who gets to ride in the front of the bus!

Yeh, human rights of the clergy to discriminate.

We don't force Catholic priests to perform Muslim marriage ceremonies if a Muslim couple requests one, and we should not do so. The same should apply for homosexual unions.

I don't think anyone's asking Christian clergy to marry same sex muslims!

Oh boy.

Let me clear a few misconceptions:
1- WR, I'm not ashamed of my views, just as the overwhelming majority of humans are not ashamed of their similar views. The difference is that political correctness silences many people, while I do not give a crap about political correctness. In a country (America) where the freedom of speech and open discussion of important issues are vital aspects of our country and how it works, any attempt at stopping free speech (no matter how much it offends a minority of citizens) should not be tolerated in any form. This wonderful aspect of our society has been backed up time and time again in the courts - it's one of the defining traits of our country.
Political Correctness attempts to appeal to minority views by stopping any discussions or viewpoints that are deemed offenseive to special interest groups.
I was foolish when I said I should just 'move on' in the discussion - I was buckling to a very vocal minority of posters on the Piano Forums who were offended by my words - posters who are attempting to use political correctness to shame me into being silent, to use the idea that their response is "appropriate" even though it's a special interest view not held by the majority of Americans. Ray Bradbury predicted in Fahrenheit Koechel 451 that books eventually became banned because very vocal minority viewpoints became increasinly offended at everyone and everything. Political Correctness is a damning example of his prescience.

If I wanted to move on from this discussion, it's not from a sense of shame on my part - it's because the conversation was going in a direction, and already had done so to be honest with you, that would have been innapropriate for this forum, as Chopinzmyhomeboy has pointed out several times. Unfortunately, the subject is about a pederast, so we are already on shaky ground, and I am not innocent of adding to the controversy - but the subject can have direct relations (homosexuality and pederasty), no matter how distasteful any of us find it. I'm not saying Homosexuals are Pederasts - so try not to quote that out of context.

2- Funkylama: I'm not complaing about the reaction: it's the typical reaction that anyone faces when they oppose political correctness and state a common social viewpoint that a few vocal citizens (5%, last count) find offensive to them, personally. The largest amount of complaining has been on your side, and even after I tried to back down from the subject and end it, it just went on and on. This is not surprising. The typical reactions were stated:
I'm a caveman.
I'm unenlightened.
I'm a homophobe.
Etc, etc.
Yes, all very expected and the usual business. Nothing surprising there. I expected at least a little intelligent conversation, but all I got was the usual "I'm offended, you brute". I'm offended too, but I don't let it get under my skin that much.

I'm not a biologist, psychologist, historian, anthropologist, religious expert - so I have to take what they tell me at face value and trust that their expertise will be reliable:

Biology has shown that human homosexuality is not physically normal.
Psychology has shown that human homosexuality is not mentally normal.
History has shown that homosexuality is not a regular practice of the majority of humans, and the events that are the result of those people.
Anthropology has shown that virtually all societies and cultures have viewed human homosexuality as abnormal.
Religions have virtually all preached that homosexuality is abnormal and a great sin.

Now, I trust what these fields have shown, and so far their findings have not been disproved (religion is a different matter, seeing as it's concerned with morality). They are commonly held views that have been proven countless times by the best experts.
If anyone disagrees with these findings, they are free to do so - but until they provide concrete evidence, they are only voicing a personal opinion, unbased in the facts. And they can do so until they are blue in the face - more power to them!

I said this several times, and I'll say it again: I don't have a problem with Homosexuals, I have a problem with some of the political rationale that they use. For instance, the claim that human homosexuality is normal. If you agree with the findings of the above scientific fields I mentioned, then human homosexuality is not normal. It is deviant, abnormal behavior - no matter what field you use to look at it with.
You can be offended with that statement, if you like - and it has been shown many times now, that some people are offended by that statement, that gathering of facts, that commonly held view. Don't expect me to believe you when you claim it's normal: no evivence has been given that is reliable and not emotional 'pleading-the-case' fallacy.

I have a great respect for the individual, the specialist, the trend-setter, the path-forger. They should celebrate their uniqueness, and what makes them special and different. What they should NOT do is claim that they are normal, just like everybody else - because they are not. They should not settle for that mediocrity. They are obviously different, whether this is shown from their sense of style, their compositional works, their impact left on history, or even their sexuality. Whatever it is - difference should be noted, even if other people don't appreciate those differences.

As it stands now, it appears to me as if the gay community has given up trying to be unique while fighting for equal political rights (Political, is THE key word here). Instead of focusing on their uniqueness, and why they need special exceptions made to current law, they are focusing on their claim that their sexual practices and lifestyle are normal, no different from anyone else. They are now claiming that, instead of civil-unions (a special exception made for special cases), they should be given the same normal marriage rights as normal, heterosexual couples. This does not help the cause at all! Because it's easily disproven, once the veil of political correctness is lifted. There are better arguments out there! I mentioned this several times already.

If you are offended and made irate by me, some random, fairly anonymous internet-poster - perhaps you need to approach your fight against discrimination with a bit tougher skin. I just don't understand why individuals would become offended when it is pointed out that they are not normal. There's NOTHING wrong with being a deviant, abnormal, or weird - this country has thrived upon it for hundreds of years. Instead of embracing those differences, those things that make us US, it seems that many people are clamoring for conformity, for acceptance, for love. Who cares if you're accepted, or loved? Who cares if your neighbor likes you, or if the cashier at 7-11 approves of your lifestyle? Are you really that psychologically weak that you need acceptance from everyone? From the whole country?

I don't hate homosexuals, just some of their latest political methods to achieve their goals. I am free to do so, just as much as they are free to hate me and my 'caveman' views: my numerous homosexual friends can attest to this (and no, don't think for a second that I'm lying or trying to make a lame point). They can use me as an example of everything that is wrong with this world, they can take me and transform me into the political devil they have been fighting for years. Shouting me down doesn't matter, and neither does my opinion. Not one bit. It won't change anything.

I'm free to hold my views, though the Piano Forum can certainly take offense at what I have said, because it's their forum, and freedom of speech doesn't apply in here. Just don't think that I hold a minority view that is freakish, cavemanish or ignorant, or based on blind, uninformed hate.
The only person I'll aplogize to is Kreisler, because he probably has 50 PMs complaining about me. Sorry...
And any other mods who have had to trudge through crap over this.

No but he was into spanking.. I just read that in a letter he wrote to his wife..
hmmm.. I don't mean to start another "variations on normal" thread though!!

Personally I would never want to be married, to either a man or a woman. However, I would like the civil benefits I feel due me as a tax-paying, honest, hard working citizen of this country.

Mattardo
Your extra dose of righteousness non-withstanding, your facts are plain wrong:
The science of biology has not proven that homosexuality is abnormal, neither has the science of psychology. And I do mean science and not religion thereof (they merge in some parts of this vast country).
Variations on normal abound in nature.
Society has indeed shunned homosexual behavior, but as you know, human traditions are also variable in time and space. In some human societies, precious traditions going back thousands of years, call for absolute control of women, their essential eradication form society (not seen, not heard, not educated, sold into marriage, killed for disobedience, stoned etc..). The arguments of the populace there are similar to yours. Are their traditions "normal"?? They also produce data from holy books and conversations, statistics about the promiscuity and moral bankrupcy of western women (e.g. out of wedlock birth rates, divorce rates, sex before marriage) and tout them as solid evidence in support of the righteousness of their traditions..

In brief, you do not have to "condone" anything, but you should not brand it as "abnormal" biologically, mentally, emotionally and socially, in such confident terms. Diluting this into a game of political correctness does not help your case either.

A close look at traditions mostly highlights the laws of relativity to me..

However, Pletnev.. oh wait, wrong thread.

However, Pletnev.. oh wait, wrong thread.