Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 9 of 11 < 1 2 ... 7 8 9 10 11 >
Topic Options
#1471824 - 07/10/10 04:55 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Mattardo]
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2076
First, free speech is a matter of whether the government can use its power to silence you. It has nothing to do with verbal or emotional reactions from other people on internet forums, or wherever. So, none of what has happened here has anything to do with free speech.

Second, when you cite psychology, biology etc., I have to wonder from where you have your information. It's certainly not contemporary scholarship you're talking about. Maybe you've been talking to someone who was last involved in scholarship in the fifties.

I admit to having some sympathy with you on the 'normalcy' point. I'm really happy to support the fight against intolerance and all forms of hate. But I do feel like the debate gets a little too close for comfort when the talk is of whether individuals must accept it as normal. Western-style liberal democracies are based on the idea of living-and-let-living in peace. People should not be preoccupied with what goes on in the minds of others, or in how they choose their friends or what they say in their living rooms. Many are opposed to homosexuality on religious grounds.

I was actually a touch sickened when I heard the suggestion that clergy might be penalized by law if they refuse to perform same-sex marriages. I just say leave the ministers alone. Maybe you will have to travel a few more miles to find a pastor who will perform a same-sex marriage, but there needs to be a sphere of freedom on this for both sides.

I wasn't sickened by the idea of same-sex marriage, mind you, but rather since I grew up in a conservative church, and it is tough for me to imagine our country forcing them to do something that is for them morally unacceptable.


Edited by charleslang (07/10/10 04:58 PM)
_________________________
Charles Lang
Working on: A Night in Tunisia; Memories of Tomorrow (Keith Jarrett).
Just started: Brazilian Like (Michel Petrucciani)

Baldwin Model R (1974), Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Rieger-Kloss 42.5" vertical

Top
(ad) Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1471828 - 07/10/10 04:58 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Mattardo]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
I don't think you can be either obstinate or intolerant to only 'some degree'. Speak for yourself!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1471830 - 07/10/10 04:59 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: charleslang]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: charleslang
I was actually a touch sickened when I heard the suggestion that clergy might be penalized by law if they refuse to perform same-sex marriages.
Take two aspirins and go to bed? Preferably with someone of a different sex?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1471832 - 07/10/10 05:02 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: keyboardklutz]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3885
Loc: New York
Mattardo
Your extra dose of righteousness non-withstanding, your facts are plain wrong:
The science of biology has not proven that homosexuality is abnormal, neither has the science of psychology. And I do mean science and not religion thereof (they merge in some parts of this vast country).
Variations on normal abound in nature.
Society has indeed shunned homosexual behavior, but as you know, human traditions are also variable in time and space. In some human societies, precious traditions going back thousands of years, call for absolute control of women, their essential eradication form society (not seen, not heard, not educated, sold into marriage, killed for disobedience, stoned etc..). The arguments of the populace there are similar to yours. Are their traditions "normal"?? They also produce data from holy books and conversations, statistics about the promiscuity and moral bankrupcy of western women (e.g. out of wedlock birth rates, divorce rates, sex before marriage) and tout them as solid evidence in support of the righteousness of their traditions..

In brief, you do not have to "condone" anything, but you should not brand it as "abnormal" biologically, mentally, emotionally and socially, in such confident terms. Diluting this into a game of political correctness does not help your case either.

A close look at traditions mostly highlights the laws of relativity to me..

Top
#1471840 - 07/10/10 05:13 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: keyboardklutz]
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2076
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: charleslang
I was actually a touch sickened when I heard the suggestion that clergy might be penalized by law if they refuse to perform same-sex marriages.
Take two aspirins and go to bed? Preferably with someone of a different sex?


This is a human rights issue, and you're making jokes. Again, so much for the enlightened thread.
_________________________
Charles Lang
Working on: A Night in Tunisia; Memories of Tomorrow (Keith Jarrett).
Just started: Brazilian Like (Michel Petrucciani)

Baldwin Model R (1974), Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Rieger-Kloss 42.5" vertical

Top
#1471842 - 07/10/10 05:17 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: charleslang]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Yeh, human rights of the clergy to discriminate. By the way, I take it Votes for Women is still controversial in your book? Of course then there's who gets to ride in the front of the bus!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1471851 - 07/10/10 05:27 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: keyboardklutz]
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2076
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Yeh, human rights of the clergy to discriminate. By the way, I take it Votes for Women is still controversial in your book? Of course then there's who gets to ride in the front of the bus!


No, those are both public and not private. We don't force Catholic priests to perform Muslim marriage ceremonies if a Muslim couple requests one, and we should not do so. The same should apply for homosexual unions.
_________________________
Charles Lang
Working on: A Night in Tunisia; Memories of Tomorrow (Keith Jarrett).
Just started: Brazilian Like (Michel Petrucciani)

Baldwin Model R (1974), Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Rieger-Kloss 42.5" vertical

Top
#1471852 - 07/10/10 05:27 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: keyboardklutz]
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2076
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Yeh, human rights of the clergy to discriminate.


Yes, that's exactly right.
_________________________
Charles Lang
Working on: A Night in Tunisia; Memories of Tomorrow (Keith Jarrett).
Just started: Brazilian Like (Michel Petrucciani)

Baldwin Model R (1974), Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Rieger-Kloss 42.5" vertical

Top
#1471859 - 07/10/10 05:31 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: charleslang]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: charleslang
We don't force Catholic priests to perform Muslim marriage ceremonies if a Muslim couple requests one, and we should not do so. The same should apply for homosexual unions.
I don't think anyone's asking Christian clergy to marry same sex muslims!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1471862 - 07/10/10 05:35 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: charleslang]
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2076
I'm actually in favor of homosexual unions, but not of homosexual marriage, for reasons of intellectual property rights - the word and concept 'marriage' has been used for a long time for the union between a woman and a man (or several women and a man).

I encourage, and want, the homosexual community to invent a less sterile term than 'union'. Homosexual union as a publicly recognized institution deserve a name that does them and those who commit to them justice, and recognize the beginning of a hopefully long history. But the word 'marriage' is taken.

If the non-hispanic community wanted a non-hispanic ceremony called the 'quinceanera', I would support a lawsuit from the hispanic community reserving that word for their ceremony. Similarly for the Jewish bar-mitzvah.
_________________________
Charles Lang
Working on: A Night in Tunisia; Memories of Tomorrow (Keith Jarrett).
Just started: Brazilian Like (Michel Petrucciani)

Baldwin Model R (1974), Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Rieger-Kloss 42.5" vertical

Top
#1471864 - 07/10/10 05:36 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: keyboardklutz]
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2076
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: charleslang
We don't force Catholic priests to perform Muslim marriage ceremonies if a Muslim couple requests one, and we should not do so. The same should apply for homosexual unions.
I don't think anyone's asking Christian clergy to marry same sex muslims!


Not same sex. Just Muslim.
_________________________
Charles Lang
Working on: A Night in Tunisia; Memories of Tomorrow (Keith Jarrett).
Just started: Brazilian Like (Michel Petrucciani)

Baldwin Model R (1974), Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Rieger-Kloss 42.5" vertical

Top
#1471865 - 07/10/10 05:37 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Mattardo]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Mattardo
Oh boy.

Let me clear a few misconceptions:
1- WR, I'm not ashamed of my views, just as the overwhelming majority of humans are not ashamed of their similar views. The difference is that political correctness silences many people, while I do not give a crap about political correctness. In a country (America) where the freedom of speech and open discussion of important issues are vital aspects of our country and how it works, any attempt at stopping free speech (no matter how much it offends a minority of citizens) should not be tolerated in any form. This wonderful aspect of our society has been backed up time and time again in the courts - it's one of the defining traits of our country.
Political Correctness attempts to appeal to minority views by stopping any discussions or viewpoints that are deemed offenseive to special interest groups.
I was foolish when I said I should just 'move on' in the discussion - I was buckling to a very vocal minority of posters on the Piano Forums who were offended by my words - posters who are attempting to use political correctness to shame me into being silent, to use the idea that their response is "appropriate" even though it's a special interest view not held by the majority of Americans. Ray Bradbury predicted in Fahrenheit Koechel 451 that books eventually became banned because very vocal minority viewpoints became increasinly offended at everyone and everything. Political Correctness is a damning example of his prescience.

If I wanted to move on from this discussion, it's not from a sense of shame on my part - it's because the conversation was going in a direction, and already had done so to be honest with you, that would have been innapropriate for this forum, as Chopinzmyhomeboy has pointed out several times. Unfortunately, the subject is about a pederast, so we are already on shaky ground, and I am not innocent of adding to the controversy - but the subject can have direct relations (homosexuality and pederasty), no matter how distasteful any of us find it. I'm not saying Homosexuals are Pederasts - so try not to quote that out of context.

2- Funkylama: I'm not complaing about the reaction: it's the typical reaction that anyone faces when they oppose political correctness and state a common social viewpoint that a few vocal citizens (5%, last count) find offensive to them, personally. The largest amount of complaining has been on your side, and even after I tried to back down from the subject and end it, it just went on and on. This is not surprising. The typical reactions were stated:
I'm a caveman.
I'm unenlightened.
I'm a homophobe.
Etc, etc.
Yes, all very expected and the usual business. Nothing surprising there. I expected at least a little intelligent conversation, but all I got was the usual "I'm offended, you brute". I'm offended too, but I don't let it get under my skin that much.

I'm not a biologist, psychologist, historian, anthropologist, religious expert - so I have to take what they tell me at face value and trust that their expertise will be reliable:

Biology has shown that human homosexuality is not physically normal.
Psychology has shown that human homosexuality is not mentally normal.
History has shown that homosexuality is not a regular practice of the majority of humans, and the events that are the result of those people.
Anthropology has shown that virtually all societies and cultures have viewed human homosexuality as abnormal.
Religions have virtually all preached that homosexuality is abnormal and a great sin.

Now, I trust what these fields have shown, and so far their findings have not been disproved (religion is a different matter, seeing as it's concerned with morality). They are commonly held views that have been proven countless times by the best experts.
If anyone disagrees with these findings, they are free to do so - but until they provide concrete evidence, they are only voicing a personal opinion, unbased in the facts. And they can do so until they are blue in the face - more power to them!

I said this several times, and I'll say it again: I don't have a problem with Homosexuals, I have a problem with some of the political rationale that they use. For instance, the claim that human homosexuality is normal. If you agree with the findings of the above scientific fields I mentioned, then human homosexuality is not normal. It is deviant, abnormal behavior - no matter what field you use to look at it with.
You can be offended with that statement, if you like - and it has been shown many times now, that some people are offended by that statement, that gathering of facts, that commonly held view. Don't expect me to believe you when you claim it's normal: no evivence has been given that is reliable and not emotional 'pleading-the-case' fallacy.

I have a great respect for the individual, the specialist, the trend-setter, the path-forger. They should celebrate their uniqueness, and what makes them special and different. What they should NOT do is claim that they are normal, just like everybody else - because they are not. They should not settle for that mediocrity. They are obviously different, whether this is shown from their sense of style, their compositional works, their impact left on history, or even their sexuality. Whatever it is - difference should be noted, even if other people don't appreciate those differences.

As it stands now, it appears to me as if the gay community has given up trying to be unique while fighting for equal political rights (Political, is THE key word here). Instead of focusing on their uniqueness, and why they need special exceptions made to current law, they are focusing on their claim that their sexual practices and lifestyle are normal, no different from anyone else. They are now claiming that, instead of civil-unions (a special exception made for special cases), they should be given the same normal marriage rights as normal, heterosexual couples. This does not help the cause at all! Because it's easily disproven, once the veil of political correctness is lifted. There are better arguments out there! I mentioned this several times already.

If you are offended and made irate by me, some random, fairly anonymous internet-poster - perhaps you need to approach your fight against discrimination with a bit tougher skin. I just don't understand why individuals would become offended when it is pointed out that they are not normal. There's NOTHING wrong with being a deviant, abnormal, or weird - this country has thrived upon it for hundreds of years. Instead of embracing those differences, those things that make us US, it seems that many people are clamoring for conformity, for acceptance, for love. Who cares if you're accepted, or loved? Who cares if your neighbor likes you, or if the cashier at 7-11 approves of your lifestyle? Are you really that psychologically weak that you need acceptance from everyone? From the whole country?

I don't hate homosexuals, just some of their latest political methods to achieve their goals. I am free to do so, just as much as they are free to hate me and my 'caveman' views: my numerous homosexual friends can attest to this (and no, don't think for a second that I'm lying or trying to make a lame point). They can use me as an example of everything that is wrong with this world, they can take me and transform me into the political devil they have been fighting for years. Shouting me down doesn't matter, and neither does my opinion. Not one bit. It won't change anything.

I'm free to hold my views, though the Piano Forum can certainly take offense at what I have said, because it's their forum, and freedom of speech doesn't apply in here. Just don't think that I hold a minority view that is freakish, cavemanish or ignorant, or based on blind, uninformed hate.
The only person I'll aplogize to is Kreisler, because he probably has 50 PMs complaining about me. Sorry...
And any other mods who have had to trudge through crap over this.



What does political correctness have to do with your homophobia?
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1471868 - 07/10/10 05:39 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: charleslang]
jtattoo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 321
Loc: Austin TX
I've kept pretty quiet through most of this thread, but followed it with interest. It started interestingly enough with the news a famous pianist had been CHARGED with child molestation. Simple enough. Interesting news item. And some of the ideas on how this effects hearing him play, his focus in the public spotlight, the ramifications for his career were worth listening to. But, when ideas about a very complex subject as homosexuality are brought to fore in a public forum such as this, there is always the danger of lighting a fire under someone. I resent being put in the class of child molesters simply because I am a homosexual. One of the problems I have with both sides of the argument is the generalization of a group of people being "lumped" together because of only one aspect of their life. Sexuality by itself does not define the person. Sexuality does not make one normal or abnormal. Putting all gay people in a group with a "homosexual agenda" simply is inaccurate. We are all different!! Personally I would never want to be married, to either a man or a woman. However, I would like the civil benefits I feel due me as a tax-paying, honest, hard working citizen of this country. The same benefits that all (black, gay, Hispanic, disabled, female etc.) are due. And unless invited in, I would expect the government and anyone I deem unnecessary to stay out of my bedroom! Kreisler last post was quite valid. "Some" ideas I heard I found very interesting, others I found quite offensive. And for the time being, I am happy enjoying the first few pages of Mozart's Piano Concerto in d minor K.466. Thank you all for your input on that other rather quiet, reserved thread. Do you suppose Mozart was celebate???????
_________________________
A professional musician, an amateur pianist. loveandapiano.com

Top
#1471875 - 07/10/10 05:46 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: jtattoo]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3885
Loc: New York
.


Edited by Andromaque (07/10/10 05:47 PM)

Top
#1471876 - 07/10/10 05:46 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Andromaque]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3885
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Andromaque
Originally Posted By: jtattoo
Do you suppose Mozart was cele(i)bate???????

No but he was into spanking.. I just read that in a letter he wrote to his wife..
hmmm.. I don't mean to start another "variations on normal" thread though!!

Top
#1471878 - 07/10/10 05:49 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: jtattoo]
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2076
Originally Posted By: jtattoo
Personally I would never want to be married, to either a man or a woman. However, I would like the civil benefits I feel due me as a tax-paying, honest, hard working citizen of this country.


I really like this view. As I said in my earlier post, the concept of marriage has deep historical roots, and some people value it for that reason, and but it's reasonable not to value it, for the very same reason. Homosexual unions are new and it's up to the homosexual community to determine what they are called and of course they should have the same benefits available as those given to couples in marriages.
_________________________
Charles Lang
Working on: A Night in Tunisia; Memories of Tomorrow (Keith Jarrett).
Just started: Brazilian Like (Michel Petrucciani)

Baldwin Model R (1974), Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Rieger-Kloss 42.5" vertical

Top
#1471908 - 07/10/10 06:22 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: theJourney]
chopinizmyhomeboy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/14/10
Posts: 128
However, Pletnev.. oh wait, wrong thread.

Top
#1471913 - 07/10/10 06:30 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Andromaque]
Mattardo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 1306
Originally Posted By: Andromaque
Mattardo
Your extra dose of righteousness non-withstanding, your facts are plain wrong:
The science of biology has not proven that homosexuality is abnormal, neither has the science of psychology. And I do mean science and not religion thereof (they merge in some parts of this vast country).
Variations on normal abound in nature.
Society has indeed shunned homosexual behavior, but as you know, human traditions are also variable in time and space. In some human societies, precious traditions going back thousands of years, call for absolute control of women, their essential eradication form society (not seen, not heard, not educated, sold into marriage, killed for disobedience, stoned etc..). The arguments of the populace there are similar to yours. Are their traditions "normal"?? They also produce data from holy books and conversations, statistics about the promiscuity and moral bankrupcy of western women (e.g. out of wedlock birth rates, divorce rates, sex before marriage) and tout them as solid evidence in support of the righteousness of their traditions..

In brief, you do not have to "condone" anything, but you should not brand it as "abnormal" biologically, mentally, emotionally and socially, in such confident terms. Diluting this into a game of political correctness does not help your case either.

A close look at traditions mostly highlights the laws of relativity to me..


It's not surprising that 2 replies come close to each other claiming that biology has proved nothing, as if the human reproduction system is open to debate. I'm not sure what courses some of you took to give you the idea that sexuality evolved apart from reproduction as it's main goal, with sexual stimulation as the trick to get it done when the common sense wasn't enough.
What biological purpose does human homosexuality serve, how did it evolve, and for what purposes? I must have missed that chapter.
I understand relativsm and changing morals, and I never claimed that there could be an absolute moral certainty about anything. Merely an example of humanity's views on the subject. In a relativistic world, isn't tradition and custom that much more important? It's the only possible way of establishing social rules, unless you propose that anarchy is the only correct answer to relativsm.

As I said - when the professional fields have long branded it as abnormal, I see no reason to tell them they are wrong. And I have yet to see any evidence to the contrary. By all means, I would be interested to see basic facts of biology dismissed lol! And political correctness has everything to do with it, and I gave several reasons exactly why that is so. Merely claiming it is not a politically correct issue, doesn't make it so - just as claiming certain behavior is normal, does not make it so.

Of course, the typical comment of "you must be reading older literature on the subject" was thrown out there by another poster, with no references or evidences that science has changed it's mind. I guess I still believe in science, rather than wishful thinking.

Top
#1471914 - 07/10/10 06:31 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: chopinizmyhomeboy]
Mattardo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 1306
Originally Posted By: chopinizmyhomeboy
However, Pletnev.. oh wait, wrong thread.


Sorry, I've created a monster.
Pletnev has actually paid me to take the heat off of him.

Top
#1471915 - 07/10/10 06:32 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: chopinizmyhomeboy]
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2076
Originally Posted By: chopinizmyhomeboy
However, Pletnev.. oh wait, wrong thread.


There is no entailment from being gay to being a pedophile, but there is an entailment from male sexual activity with boys to being gay (or bisexual). (Just as there is an entailment from, for example, male sexual activity with young girls to heterosexuality). So it's not completely off topic to discuss homosexuality.

In other words, the topic of homosexuality is raised by the OP just from the fact that the accusation has to do with boys. If that aspect of the accusation is something some are especially sensitive to, it's on topic to talk about it.
_________________________
Charles Lang
Working on: A Night in Tunisia; Memories of Tomorrow (Keith Jarrett).
Just started: Brazilian Like (Michel Petrucciani)

Baldwin Model R (1974), Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Rieger-Kloss 42.5" vertical

Top
#1471923 - 07/10/10 06:42 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Mattardo]
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2076
Originally Posted By: Mattardo

What biological purpose does human homosexuality serve, how did it evolve, and for what purposes? I must have missed that chapter.


It's obvious to us all that you did. There is not a shortage of explanations for it. One primary one is that it emerged as a re-appropration of reproductive machinery (in the brain and of course also sexual organs) to serve purposes of male-male and female-female bonding.

In many species, there are members who contribute to reproduction on the big picture (sustainment and expansion of the whole population) rather than on an individual level. Think of worker bees, for example. If you have individuals contributing on this level, their reproductive functions are free to be applied to whatever they work well for. One thing they are good at is creating intimacy, strengthening trust, underlining emotional connections . . .

But, even if none of this were true, why on earth should we take the evolutionary functions of parts of our being to limit us as to what we use them for? Teeth evolved for breaking apart food, but primitive humans used their teeth as a general tool -- not just for food, but for helping to make tools and manipulate other things. Almost surely, that kind of flexibility in behavior played a central part in making us how successful we are.
_________________________
Charles Lang
Working on: A Night in Tunisia; Memories of Tomorrow (Keith Jarrett).
Just started: Brazilian Like (Michel Petrucciani)

Baldwin Model R (1974), Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Rieger-Kloss 42.5" vertical

Top
#1471941 - 07/10/10 07:13 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Mattardo]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Mattardo


Merely claiming it is not a politically correct issue, doesn't make it so - just as claiming certain behavior is normal, does not make it so.



However, your views/opinions/homophobia have nothing to do with political correctness. You've basically said so yourself without realizing it apparently. Political correctness just gives you a "deflector" that you can spend your time talking about rather than focusing on the fact that you just flat out don't like gays and find them to be freaks. Don't dress up your bias, because it makes you look even more pathetic.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1471943 - 07/10/10 07:14 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Kreisler]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
One of the reasons I leave threads like this open is that I think it's interesting to see how conversations evolve.....

Bravo!!

Quote:
.....While we have been led down a few hackneyed paths (homosexuality), we've also touched on a few interesting issues: To what extent does politics enter into the situation....How perceptions of a artist's personal qualities affects people's experience of their works.
If a government turns a blind eye to illegal activity, should they share the blame for what happens?.....

Absolutely.
Thanks for being so flexible on it -- and very well said.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

Top
#1471944 - 07/10/10 07:16 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: keyboardklutz]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Look.
Suppose he meant something like contentious (which I think he did), but just happened to say controversial (which will do just fine).

You're quibbling about vocabulary.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

Top
#1471947 - 07/10/10 07:20 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Mattardo]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Mattardo
....as if the human reproduction system is open to debate.....

I haven't read most of what's been said about this here (and don't care to), but, speaking as someone who's very schooled and very interested in biology, evolution, genetics, and sexuality, I can tell you that it's a mistake to look at sexuality only in terms of reproduction and assume that's its whole story.

And BTW I'm also speaking as someone who used to look at it essentially that way.

P.S. Charleslang's above post covers a big part of the counterargument extremely well.


Edited by Mark_C (07/10/10 07:26 PM)
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

Top
#1471962 - 07/10/10 07:56 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: wr]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5916
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: chopinizmyhomeboy
One should not bash someone just because his or her opinion differs from yours, especially since Mattardo wasn't too rude about it.


Regardless of the appropriateness of that sort of name-calling, abjectly ignorant homophobic comments aren't simply a difference of opinion. And I don't see how you can think that calling people's behavior "aberrant" is anything but rude. It's pretty much the same as calling them freaks or monsters.


You equate the word "aberrant" with freaks and monsters?
I find that laughingly ridiculous.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

Top
#1471968 - 07/10/10 08:08 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: stores]
Mattardo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 1306
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: Mattardo


Merely claiming it is not a politically correct issue, doesn't make it so - just as claiming certain behavior is normal, does not make it so.



However, your views/opinions/homophobia have nothing to do with political correctness. You've basically said so yourself without realizing it apparently. Political correctness just gives you a "deflector" that you can spend your time talking about rather than focusing on the fact that you just flat out don't like gays and find them to be freaks. Don't dress up your bias, because it makes you look even more pathetic.



Yes, I spent a whole paragraph on it. Very insightful.

Top
#1471971 - 07/10/10 08:17 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: charleslang]
Mattardo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 1306
Originally Posted By: charleslang
Originally Posted By: Mattardo

What biological purpose does human homosexuality serve, how did it evolve, and for what purposes? I must have missed that chapter.


It's obvious to us all that you did. There is not a shortage of explanations for it. One primary one is that it emerged as a re-appropration of reproductive machinery (in the brain and of course also sexual organs) to serve purposes of male-male and female-female bonding.

In many species, there are members who contribute to reproduction on the big picture (sustainment and expansion of the whole population) rather than on an individual level. Think of worker bees, for example. If you have individuals contributing on this level, their reproductive functions are free to be applied to whatever they work well for. One thing they are good at is creating intimacy, strengthening trust, underlining emotional connections . . .

But, even if none of this were true, why on earth should we take the evolutionary functions of parts of our being to limit us as to what we use them for? Teeth evolved for breaking apart food, but primitive humans used their teeth as a general tool -- not just for food, but for helping to make tools and manipulate other things. Almost surely, that kind of flexibility in behavior played a central part in making us how successful we are.


Yes, but we are talking about humans - not worker bees. If you want to talk about the many animals that change their sexes as needed, hive mentality, etc - that's okay, but they don't apply.
Your theory on the bonding sounds interesting, but doesn't appear to be essential to a species' survival - who proposed this theory?
Using teeth for things they weren't designed for is definately benificial if it gives an edge, but is still not a normal usage of them. It doesn't matter how beneficial my elbow is as a paintbrush, it wasn't designed to be used that way - therfore it's an abnormal usage.
I'm not saying you shouldn't use your elbow or teeth for operating vending machines, I'm just saying it's not normal.

Top
#1471972 - 07/10/10 08:20 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Mattardo]
Mattardo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 1306
In the end - everyone has their own opinions on the matter, and nobody is going to have their mind changed over any of it. It was never my intention to do so. So easy to get off track because statements not readily agreed-upon have to be dissected and argued over. By the time it's done, their applicability has lost some of their immediacy and charm, if they ever had any.

Everyone will justify their own actions, no matter what they are - even Pletnev.

Top
#1471978 - 07/10/10 08:26 PM Re: Oh fudge, now Mikhail Pletnev in trouble too [Re: Mattardo]
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2076
Originally Posted By: Mattardo
Originally Posted By: charleslang
Originally Posted By: Mattardo

What biological purpose does human homosexuality serve, how did it evolve, and for what purposes? I must have missed that chapter.


It's obvious to us all that you did. There is not a shortage of explanations for it. One primary one is that it emerged as a re-appropration of reproductive machinery (in the brain and of course also sexual organs) to serve purposes of male-male and female-female bonding.

In many species, there are members who contribute to reproduction on the big picture (sustainment and expansion of the whole population) rather than on an individual level. Think of worker bees, for example. If you have individuals contributing on this level, their reproductive functions are free to be applied to whatever they work well for. One thing they are good at is creating intimacy, strengthening trust, underlining emotional connections . . .

But, even if none of this were true, why on earth should we take the evolutionary functions of parts of our being to limit us as to what we use them for? Teeth evolved for breaking apart food, but primitive humans used their teeth as a general tool -- not just for food, but for helping to make tools and manipulate other things. Almost surely, that kind of flexibility in behavior played a central part in making us how successful we are.


Yes, but we are talking about humans - not worker bees. If you want to talk about the many animals that change their sexes as needed, hive mentality, etc - that's okay, but they don't apply.


I didn't mention changing sexes or 'hive mentality', nor do I know what that even means. And if you want an example from humans, take nuns, or priests or vestal virgins in ancient Rome (or old folks generally). In these cases the reproductive systems are available for other uses (unfortunately in all except the last case they're mostly just wasted instead of finding another use).

Originally Posted By: Mattardo

Your theory on the bonding sounds interesting, but doesn't appear to be essential to a species' survival


And being essential to survival is what makes something normal? You mean like eating meat? Or bowling? Or surfing?

Originally Posted By: Mattardo

I'm not saying you shouldn't use your elbow or teeth for operating vending machines, I'm just saying it's not normal.


The only reason these applications sound silly is because we have other better ways to do these things.
_________________________
Charles Lang
Working on: A Night in Tunisia; Memories of Tomorrow (Keith Jarrett).
Just started: Brazilian Like (Michel Petrucciani)

Baldwin Model R (1974), Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Rieger-Kloss 42.5" vertical

Top
Page 9 of 11 < 1 2 ... 7 8 9 10 11 >

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Download & Print Sheet Music Instantly
sheet music search
sheet music search

sheet music search
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
123 registered (accordeur, A Guy, Almaviva, 37 invisible), 1247 Guests and 44 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
74250 Members
42 Forums
153596 Topics
2251144 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Recorded a song on my workstation tonight
by Arizona Sage
26 minutes 16 seconds ago
How to tune a piano.....
by Grandpianoman
Yesterday at 11:46 PM
Need help with upgrading(?) Roland digital
by Pathbreaker
Yesterday at 10:23 PM
CA glue applications
by accordeur
Yesterday at 10:01 PM
Casio PX 850
by ryand90
Yesterday at 07:41 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission