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I too am very interested in your answer, Dumdiddle.

I'll get back to you about that, Joe, but I've got to go watch the match !

I grew up learning letter names and was first introduced to solfege when I trained to teach the Yamaha program back in the 80's. At first, it was confusing to me, but over the years I found I preferred it to teaching letter names as the student's first musical language.

I now teach Harmony Road, similar to Yamaha in that it's a group music program that allows kids to experience many different musical activities, all centered around the piano keyboard. Concepts are EXPERIENCED first, then taught.

Solfege is used because of the extensive ear training that is woven throughout the program. Students learn what 'do', 're', 'mi' SOUND like before they learn them on the staff. Kids as young as four years old don't have to know the alphabet in order to learn to play piano. They learn the note names in solfege, although some letter naming is used when referring to 'C' chords (do-mi-sol), 'G7' chords (ti-fa-sol), and when talking about playing in the Key of C, G, F, Dm, etc.... Solfege is the key to ear training and internalizing pitch.

The philosophy of both programs says that the VOICE is a child's first instrument. Children will sing every song that they will eventually play on the piano. They will sing hundreds of short and long solfege patterns over course of the 4 year program. They will create their own patterns and turn those into short compositions that they notate.

Having taught both letter names and 'fixed Do' solfege for nearly 30 years now, I'm completely sold on teaching solfege to beginning students.

Where did Re go? incomplete G7 with inversion? (curious)

I hope you're being funny

These are little kids; a 3-note chord is challenging enough.

A G chord would be played 'ti-re-sol'.

Dumdumdiddle, I am admittedly a student. I know nothing about your program so my question was sincere. You said that they sing things first. I sing the G7 chord, and I sing it as "so ti re fa" and in that way I know which notes are involved in that chord, and how they relate in every way. Ti-re-so was disorienting to me. So they sing exactly as they play - that makes sense. Thank you.

The smiley you posted made me think that your question was 'a bit in jest'. No problem.

And yes, we do also sing the note names of chords (as 3-note chords).

Thank you dumdumdiddle for summary of your methods, and lando for world cup inspired revelations (perhaps we need a picture).
DDD my teaching philosophy and approach are similar to yours, except i have no training really in this area. But your words inspire me to continue working to put solfege into my teaching.

In my philosophy the childs first 'instruments' are
Singing/speech +
Dance/movement +
Story

I find that it's more interesting for the child to have these happen away from piano, and then translated to the piano, and notation. But sometimes we go straight to the piano too. But always story and words and rhytm reinforced by movement.

DDD I have a question. These are the syllables that I use; are they the same as yours?
White: do re me fa so la ti
Sharps from C# up: di ri fi si li
Flats from Db up: ra me se le te

There are nice consistencies in this set that I found somewhere. But my logical side is a little bothered by the exceptions. I think I want you to tell me the exceptions dont matter and that it's better to have a language in common with other musicians. So is this what you use? Anyone else?

Hi Canonie. The Harmony Road program I teach doesn't use the syllable variations for flats and sharps (di, ri, etc....). The basic solfege syllables are the same as you've mentioned.

We start out in Key of C and stay within the 5-finger scale; then G. Key of F is when we have the ti-flat (B-flat) and I sing it as a 'ti', but when notating it on the staff and when seeing it in the music we will call it 'ti-flat'; when singing, we'll sing 'ti'. Then we move to D minor, then A minor, where we only have the sharps in the V7 chords (do-sharp and then sol-sharp), and the stretch to ti-flat in some pieces that are in Dm. By the time they're playing in other keys that have more sharps/flats (usually about the 4th year or so), the kids have begun to learn regular letter names.

- ToBeYourFiddle
thank you for your quick and clear response I have lots to think about. I know it feels good to be familiar with a system and know how it works with the students. I see how you avoid the mouthful of "ti-flat" while still teaching that it sounds different to the usual ti. The names of all the black notes have been the tipping point, that hold me back from getting it into my brain and using this solfege.

You know it's interesting, I've just realised that recently I've been doing the same thing; singing "Ceeeee" in place of C sharp in a song after briefly mentioning that of course we know it's C sharp. Students haven't been bothered by this at all. In fast songs there's no other way.

Ha, ha, you caught on!

Yeh. Like ages ago
But you dropped a broad hint recently which confirmed it.

It seems that this Harmony Road method follows solfège practise quite exactly, so I rest baffled as to why in this method they use "ti" in place of "si".

to have as a drink with jam and bread perhaps? Oooo I might just pop the kettle on.

But seriously, thank you for confirming that harmony road is in line with your own experience as I had been wondering. I (think I) understand how this works now.

You couldn't resist, could you?

Hey, Canonie, nice to see you, it had been a while, hadn't it.

The practise in solfège of pronouncing "do", whether the note be natural, sharp or flat, is a reflection of the theorhetical structure of music.

Music rests on keys, on modulations between one key and another, on modes within a key. A key is based on seven notes; exactly one do, one ré, one mi etc. And so in solfège you always have one do, one ré, one mi.

Solfège exercise lays a basis for internalizing this underlying structure, the intervals that make up a scale, the tonic, the dominant, the sensible, etc.

Solfège is a singing exercise, but it is not aimed at sucessfully singing the right tone at the right moment. It is aimed at developing the faculty of reading and writing music, taking reading in the sense of looking at a written score and understanding musically what it "says", as you understand the meaning of a written text in literature; taking writing in the sense of composing or arranging. Solfège is a quite sophisticated pedagogic technique, aimed at a philosophical, theorhetical mastery of music based on a profoundly assimilated practise.

By solfège I mean fixed-do solfège. Moveable-do solfège appears a pragmatic activity, aimed at permitting to sing in a choir.

Thank you yes it had been months with only bit of lurking.

I was busy passing my first piano exam, and doing my very first professional (= paid) piano jobs. Right now I'm on holidays practising new rep and interspersing this with PW time, very pleasant.

Back to topic. Since Guido de Arezzo only named up to La, it's not so surprising that different tis and sis have emerged. Personally I like ti because no consonant is repeated, and sibilants are not as nice to sing. But a reason to choose si could be that ti is already used for 1/8 note in rhythm solfege ( ta ta titi titi ...)

In fixed do, you never pronounce flats and sharps? What about flats and sharps that deviate from the key signature? Is there no way to pronounce them?

In moveable do, the flats and sharps that are part of the key signature are also never pronounced. At least not in major scales, and not in minor scales when using the la-based minor system. But all "non-diatonic" flats and sharps are pronounced. So in movable do, you could sing "fi" instead of "fa", and this note "fi" would trigger the feeling of the secondary dominant V/V (re-fi-la).

I would guess moveable do invented the name "ti" for the leading tone, because "si" means "so-sharp" (part of V/vi in major, and the leading tone in the la-based minor system).

WELL, I actually bumped into John Colwill today (see above) and we enthusiastically discussed his books for the full 4 minutes we had before John's ride to the airport arrived (!) - and it sounds as if his method is really a fixed do of kinds - in the sense of same finger, same note. But it's all about establishing relationships too, so..... I will still await the arrival of the publications with eagerness, but my suspicion is that there really isn't a movable do method per se out there......

On the other hand, in this discussion there's been much talk of singing first - and singing before doing anything else seems like a no-brainer, until you realise that most methods do NOT start with singing first - the singing comes as an accompaniment to the music the student learns in the method, not as a precursor to the playing. It's interesting to me that the connection between solfege (fixed or movable) and singing does not seem to be mirrored in other piano methods.....

Of course! Si is in list of syllables a few posts back, and it allows the sharps to all end in letter "i".

Are thinking of creating a young beginners piano method Elissa? I assume P-plate are not method books?