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I've just listened to this blues impro, which moves from C to C#/Db, then D, then Eb, skips E and moves finally to F. I must say: I don't hear more tension in Db and Eb, neither do I hear more purity in C, D or F.

For my part, I close this "EBVT vs. ET" chapter, having come to my personal conclusions that
1) in real-time play, I cannot distinguish ET from EBVT,
2) I still think that stretch plays a stronger role in the overall sound of a piano than 1 or 2 cents deviation in the temperament. I submit a personal opinion that things like the pipe organ effect, the melodious and/or harmonious sound of a piano, etc. etc. depend much more on the amount of stretch used.

Anyway, it's been fascinating reading, and from now on, I'll leave it up to those really fine ears that can (or believe they can) actually distinguish between the two...

I just wanted to say thank you to Bill B., (welcome back too of course) Andy, GPM, Greg, Pat and maybe others that I missed for taking the time to tune, post, tune again, record, play, post etc.. That took a lot of time out of a 4 day schedule. It was nice of you all to take the time to do this for everyone here.

Jer

Yeah...what he said.

I too am grateful for the efforts and willingness to work on the concept, that all of you put forth...

RPD

Mark,

I am particularly interested in having you skip back to the "Going Home" melodies that Patrick recorded. He did this early on at my request. I had him do it with you in mind. He played it on the Disklavier but we recorded it three times on the Mason & Hamlin.

I had a theory about what Dvorak must have done. It was clear to me that at the time Dvorak lived, pianos were not yet being tuned in ET as we know it today. His piano would have been tuned in a Victorian style temperament similar in characteristics to the EBVT III: not all that different from ET but still bearing distinct key color that can be perceived, even if not by everyone.

What I have seen from what you and any number of other people have written, both here and elsewhere has been the perception that if it is not ET, it wouldn't work, couldn't work and shouldn't even be tried. Some, as you have, said they tried it and found the dissonance in the remote keys unbearable (as you said you did on your harpsichord). I can accept that and I have.

Now, however, you say that you can't distinguish much if anything between one key and the other. I often see this. At first, the perception is that the EBVT III doesn't work because it is too different from ET. Then, the perception is that it is not different enough, so why bother? Believe me, there is a reason why I tune nearly all of my customers' pianos in the EBVT III. Those that I don't, I tune in some other temperament but never ET.

The theory I had about Dvorak was that the "Going Home" melody is a C Major type melody, best served by C Major on a keyboard instrument tuned in a Well Temperament. Dvorak most likely composed it that way but transposed it up 1/2 step to facilitate the wind instruments.

The winds would not maintain the kinds of interval sizes among the Major thirds that a keyboard instrument would. They would not even maintain the 14 cent wide M3s of ET. They would aim mostly at Just Intonation as you previously pointed out. Therefore, the choice of key on a keyboard was relevant to the way the keyboard was tuned but the choice of key for winds was made for a different reason.

After hearing what he played on the Disklavier played back first in D-flat, then in C Major, Patrick agreed with me completely. In D-flat, the rendition does not sound bad but it seems to have too much energy. (If it had been played in a stronger WT, it would have sounded out of tune, no question about that).

When played in C Major in the EBVT III, the rendition has that very calm sound that we associate with the way it sounds played by the winds (or at least closer to that sound). After that, Patrick had the short recording played again in D Major just for comparison. Again, it doesn't sound bad but it is just not the same as it is in C Major.

Do you care to go back and listen to those three renditions and tell us whether you can distinguish the differences in character between them?

Hey, Jer! I think in the list of names above, you mean Randy, as in Randy Cox, GP's piano rebuilder?

It's true, I would have loved to have been there! But the only thing I could have brought to the table would have been my pom-poms and a "things to do" checklist!

And so, to Bill, Randy, GP, Gregg, and Patrick, I add my thanks to Jer's! What you've posted is wonderful! I particularly enjoyed the jazz improv--beautiful tuning, beautiful music, beautiful piano, beautiful recording--jeez, that was beautiful!

--Andy

Dear Bill,



Please, let's not go down this fundamentalist route again! I would never have said that. I'm sure you remember that I was actually quite open to experiment whether something other than ET works. That's why I tried the EBVT III on my parents' harpsichord in the first place.



Two comments:
1) You have to remember, Bill, that I am an amateur. I had great difficulty in finding the point where some of those intervals are truly equal-beating. (I mailed you to describe this problem). So, what I heard, was not necessarily a true EBVT III. It was just my (first) attempt. I distinctly remember that C major was very calm, but Ab major was very harsh. Time and again, I tried to tune C4 a bit sharper, but then it wouldn't fit the tuning sequence properly any more. (If I remember correctly, someone else here (Patrick? Glen?) also had this problem during his first attempts: some intervals or notes have to be set very carefully, in order to avoid making the temperament "too well".) So please bear in mind that when I spoke of harsh remote keys, I talked about my own attempt.
2) "Unbearable" is a strong word to use in this context. I'll just leave it at that...



Bill, you make it appear as though I've had a sudden change of mind. This is not true. You can go back and check: since GPM and Patrick have posted tuning comparisons here, especially in "live" music pieces, I have not been able to distinguish one from the other conclusively. I actually joked about it the other day, because I got more guesses wrong than right!

Now, if GPM, Patrick or Glen were to play slow, successive M3s, I'm sure I could make out which is which. But in any normal piece of music, I can't - at least not conclusively. I sometimes hear some differences, but can't say for sure which is which. That's always been the case, ever since the first tuning comparison was posted!



I would love to! Just bear in mind that I have pitch memory (I prefer this term to perfect pitch), hence I would recognise the key immediately... The true test, for me, would be if all three renditions were in D flat, but with slightly differently-sized M3s.

Be that as it may, I'll gladly listen to the three, for what it's worth, if only you can give me a pointer (who posted them, when, which thread - or perhaps a direct link?)

Just curious—apologies for the tangent—does anyone actually use the "kilogram force"? I, for one, have heard of it but never seen it in use.

Mark,

Thanks for your reply. In now way was I trying to be accusatory or argumentative. What I said was what I have encountered in general, not specific to you except in part and only fragments of that.

Here are the three boxnet links to the "Going Home" melody, all played in the EBVT III by Patrick (originally recorded on the Disklavier in ET but played on the M&H in ET.) [GP could probably post the Disklavier recording in ET].

The first is in the key of D-flat, the second in C Major and the third in D Major. I think you will find that it sounds most appropriate in C Major. I agree with your term "pitch memory". Some playback equipment can transpose. If you could do that, you could play the C Major version 1/2 step higher. It would not change the temperament, only the pitch.

Please let us know your reaction to these.

By the way, don't feel that you are in the minority if you can't tell conclusively whether a recording is in ET or EBVT III, especially if the music is sufficiently complex. I couldn't either.

Hi Mark,
Since the intervals are not spaced evenly in EBVTiii by design, the same piece of music played in CMaj will sound quite different played in F#Maj. However, for example, I can't imagine playing the second Mvt of the Pathetique in CMaj anyway...Some folks might not hear the difference, but it is clear to me when that happens.

My first go at EBVTiii was not a disaster, it was just that I placed a few of the intervals in the bearing section as I heard them and they weren't correct, leaving the G#-C and F#-A# way too wide, which, when combined with octaves up and down from the bearing section left me with something that I just did not like. It would be the same situation in ET if I stretched too much the octaves in the most played section of the piano, for example, or did not have the intervals in ET set optimally. It would sound wrong, or like it needed to be tuned again.

That has since been corrected - like ET, in EBVTiii, one has to make the temperament fit the pianos voice (scale, and other limitations, etc) by making small adjustments, enough to make it as correct and musical as possible. I am a big fan of getting the octaves and unisons as perfect as possible - that is what makes any temperament shine.

Glen

Yes, this is all very true, and I appreciate your detailed memory, Bill

The folk melody is called "Kristallen den fina", which would translate into something like "The beautiful (/noble) chrystal". It is a Swedish song, part of my tradition too. I am one of about 300.000 swedish-speaking Finns (a minority of about 6% of the population in Finland).

In the folk music of our heritage, you would often have coeval minor and major. A melody line often rises up to a climax on the minor third, and then descends down to settle firmly on the major third. Thus it is simoultaneosly light and dark, much like our nature

Bill, thanks for jarring my memory...Patrick, sorry about the mix up. There was so much going on and I was pretty tired as the days progressed, that I had forgotten that you had explained the song etc. I think we recorded that song late in the evening as well.

There is definitely more music to come....have been busy with my work...stay tuned!

Thanks, Rafael!

BTW, I've gotten a few requests on starting a thread about the tuning exam. I guess it's all pretty fresh in my memory, and some of my recalls might help others. If more of you forum members think this is a good idea, please say so and push me into starting it


... at least that is what I think The measurements I have seen is total length and bore length, and then rather obscure gradings for density/weight (for example, "No 1, No 2" and so on.)

I had never realized that 19 pound hammers had a real physical relationship to their labeling. But then again, I tend to forget that a foot is actually the average length of a foot, too

Jürgen or Gregor (PW members) would know far more about this than I do, so if any of you (or anybody else with the facts together) read this, please set me straight if I'm wrong!


true, but wouldn't kilogram-force and pound-force be what we call kilograms and pounds, referring to weight, as long as we stay more or less on earth?


Yes, Mark, absolutely - I'm still pondering the placement of C4 every single time I tune EBVT III. The relationship you describe, between C major and Ab major, is the hardest one for me to get right.

Great idea! Go for it!

Patrick - you've got my vote. That would be fantastic!

Glen

I think it is a good idea. I'm all for it.

Oops, after all that, I forgot the links, here they are:

1."Going Home" played by Patrick Wingren in EBVT III http://www.box.net/shared/hhneejfcyv

2."Going Home" played by Patric Wingren in EBVT III http://www.box.net/shared/6449gepa5i

3."Going Home" played by Patrick Wingren in EBVT III http://www.box.net/shared/kcvk0dhf2p

Thank you, Patrick. I now recall you saying those words and how I tried to repeat them with your exact accent. I remember being captivated by the melody.

We are all waiting until you release some of the other recordings! There is so much that everyone has not heard yet. The best is yet to come!

Patrick, I think a thread about your experiences with the tuning exam is an excellent idea. Many people have misconceptions about it. Some think it is too easy. Others are intimidated by it. You did it and you did it very well! Please tell all!

For those attempting the EBVT or EBVT III: If A-flat - C seems way too dissonant, then it probably means that the F3-C4 5th is wide, not pure. The G#3-C4 M3 is a little less than 17 cents wide. That is certainly wider than an ET M3 (14 cents) but it is not as wide as the 22 cent Pythagorean M3 by far. Many WTs do have G#3-C4 at 22 cents. So, if your trial of the EBVT yields a horribly dissonant G#3-C4 M3, you must have made an error.

Yes Patrick, I want to know how was it.

But, wait... Isn't there any risk to be banned if one starts a thread about PTG exams? Remember that this forum is not a recruiting outlet for PTG.

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the links. Unfortunately, I don't have any transposing playback equipment. It's difficult for me to describe what I heard, and not refer to the key - many people refer to the "characters" of keys. For me, C major has always been C major, as long as I can remember. Just like the color blue is blue. And I will always associate the Going Home melody with Db major, so any other key somehow sounds "off" - and note: for me, this has nothing to do with the width of the M3! It's just a matter of my pitch memory requiring that the melody be in Db major.

For example, when I first heard Bach's double concerto (the well-known version being for two violins, in D minor) in a transcription for two harpsichords, played in C minor, I was highly irritated and really quite deeply disturbed - that is, until I found out that the harpsichord version is indeed written in C minor. Still, as often as I hear it, it sounds somehow "wrong" to me. Again, this has nothing to do with the pureness of C minor vs. D minor. So my pitch memory is actually making things difficult for me here.

That being said, here are my impressions of Patrick's renditions:

Right off the start, no. 1 feels "right" to me, not because of any temperament issues, but because it's in the correct key. That aside, and now specifically regarding those remote keys in EBVT III: I don't find the M3s of Db or Ab offensively wide. In fact, to me, they don't sound much wider than ET M3s. However, the middle section in the subdominant (Gb = F# = most remote key), is really quite harsh, and I find this a bit distractive from the mood. But all in all, I quite like this rendition.

No. 2 is much calmer, I agree, and the calmness suits the melody. But: there are a few very "busy" notes/chords that interrupt this calmness - you would perhaps call it "tension and release"? One of them is the F3 in the G7 chord at 0:45, 1:00, 1:49, etc. which beats quite strongly with G1 (?), the other is the E augm chord at 0:53. I realise that this to-and-fro between calm and tension is possibly exactly what you want, but to my ears, it's unusual, and I must say, it distracts me somewhat from "immersing" myself in the melody and harmony. The dominant 7th chord in No 1. (Ab 7) is much more harmonious to my ears.

No. 3 has similar elements, especially a very harsh F# augm chord at 0:54 - as is to be expected. What I do like, is the pure-sounding G major in the middle section. To me, it actually sounds even better than the middle section of No. 2.

So it boils down to whether you like a temperament to contribute to the tension and release in the music. Personally, I think that "Going Home" has quite enough tension and release of its own (in terms of melody and harmony), hence I'm a bit distracted by the calm and busy chords.

But those are just my impressions. To me, all three have agreeable and slightly disagreeable elements. Now, I would just love to hear the same arrangement in ET, to see whether it can find a compromise between what I perceive as positives and negatives.

I hope my answer doesn't offend anyone - there it is.