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#1603345 - 01/22/11 11:09 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
deeluk, you've been gone for awhile. I recall you're one of the veterans of this thread 3 years ago...glad to see you visit.

Want to do more? smile
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#1603401 - 01/23/11 01:32 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
deeluk Offline
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Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
Hey jazzwee. Yeah, been too long. Life and my muse has me off in other directions. I've been peeking in and lurking every once in a while. It's really awesome what you have been doing here. I wish I had the time to dedicate. Maybe someday. I had a lot of fun with your help and guidance. I learned sooooooo much.

Looks like you got a new board too. Cool! I'm still pounding away on the old XS8. wink

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#1603437 - 01/23/11 02:49 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Well at least it's an XS8. I can't believe it's 'old' now smile Just dumped my XS6 which I bought specifically for this thread.

Keep lurking man. From the read counts, obviously someone's reading. The advanced thread is catching up though.

Hope you can come back and do this again.
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#1603518 - 01/23/11 06:43 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
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Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
SwingCabbage, let me help you with your thirds noodling so we put at least some structure here.

First make sure you're comfortable with playing the G Scale (for Autumn Leaves) starting with any note in the scale, so get your fingering issues resolved.

What we're going to work on is noodling but targetting thirds.

Let's just think of the ii-V-I
| Am7 | D7 | GMaj7|

Goals:

1. Start your noodling on the 'and' or '+'

2. Pick your starting note to be a note before the 3rd or after the 3rd. So for Am7 the target note is C. So think of the first note you will play as either B or D.

3. First let's just do this as two notes. An eighth note and a half note.
If you start the line at 1+, you migh play eighth notes as B C, or D C on the Am7
All the movements are just stepwise in the scale. Don't move to the next step until this is automatic.

4. Now later on expand it to all eighth notes. Again start the line at 1+, you migh play eighth notes stepwise as B C D E ...and stop when you lose control. The number of notes to play is up to you.

5. Don't think of stepwise as continuing in the same direction. Noodling involves up/down and reversing directions BUT AFTER YOU HIT YOUR TARGET NOTE. Typically after the first target note, the next several notes will be in sync with the chord.

This trains to you "target" chord tones but you actually play the target note via the approach note to it. And it also trains you to understand that short stepwise movements of eighth notes after the target note will naturally follow chord tones on downbeats.

This is the basic premise of the Bebop Scale. But it doesn't work once you cross an octave. For now, when it sounds off, just stop the line and start again.


Do this exercise at a tempo that's comfortable to you. If it's 60bpm it's fine.



Decided to rest last night.

Alls well now this morning after a bit of Yoga. Lastnight instead of playing piano I read on to pages 24 and 25 of the thread. Everything you are saying above makes sense to me. I get it. I'm still not able to put emphasis on the offbeat because of the keyboard. I can hear it though I think in the youtube videos.

I have 2 hours to practice this and will put up one or two mp3s for you folks to have a listen to. I may be slow here as when you look at the fingers moving on youtube the blur is real. Remember it took three weeks of hard work for my first posting.

I got my daughter to show me how to do the fingering for the Gmajor scale and she showed me stepwise and contrary motion with two hands which is interesting. It makes sense to me that there are guides for playing scales. Bringing the thumb under and the third finger over depending on your direction.

In the videos I see mainly fingers 1,2 and 3 being used where I can tell what fingers are involved. Is there somewhere you can point me regarding finger choice and general rules. As Jazzwee said somewhere 'learn with the rules and then when you become proficient with them then you can start to break them' or something like that. I know it was focused on improvising but maybe thereis a website somewhere that talks about finger placement.

Practice now. Thanks again Jazzwee for the above. There will be lots of work in your above guidlines for me to last a while just here.

Question

Does Arps mean Arpegios and does this mean going up and down a scale on the chord tones 1,3,5,7 and maybe even 1,3,5,7,9,11,13 ect.
I think that I will be instructed on this later in my learning. I have a yearning to know but not use just now. will stick to the programme.

Talk talk

SC


Edited by SwingCabbage (01/23/11 06:48 AM)
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#1603520 - 01/23/11 06:51 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: deeluk]
SwingCabbage Offline
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Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Originally Posted By: deeluk
Hey jazzwee. Yeah, been too long. Life and my muse has me off in other directions. I've been peeking in and lurking every once in a while. It's really awesome what you have been doing here. I wish I had the time to dedicate. Maybe someday. I had a lot of fun with your help and guidance. I learned sooooooo much.

Looks like you got a new board too. Cool! I'm still pounding away on the old XS8. wink


Deeluk
I am in the middle of your posts from back at the start of the thread and am learning from your questions and the answers that Jazzwee and others posted.

I know that your off in other directions bu it would be interesting to hear a rendition of AL from you three years later. Even though youve had a big gap.

Anyway your posts live on in this thread.
BC


Edited by SwingCabbage (01/23/11 06:53 AM)
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#1603564 - 01/23/11 09:38 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: SwingCabbage]
SwingCabbage Offline
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Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
This is the only recording I made warts and all.

http://www.box.net/shared/hcsovfj4la


I had about an hour practice and now post my 5 min recording.

I got a little carried away with the intro onto the 3rd.
starting on a + and then the third.

Lacks melody and I lost my place many many times. First time working with a moving base background so that takes a bit of getting used to.
there is I hope a little bit of repeating patterns and some swing here and there.

It's not easy and needs practice. I will go and do more practice and post something that I think is closer to where I need to be.

Comments welcome. I need to sit down and listen to it myself in more depth. only had time to listen once. I know that there is alot of noise in here. You can hear me grunt and sigh in the recording. This is where and when I know I've moved into madness.

Anyway I have to go and get me a piano.

I will practice more and put up some decent improvs in a day or two.

maybe just a few questions in the meantime.

Thanks to all. 4 people listened to my other one. just saw that on box.net so there are others listning and following and not commenting. would be good to have someone else posting.

120 beats was the slowest backing I could locate to practice on.

Talk Talk
SC
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#1603581 - 01/23/11 10:05 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2939
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Hi SC,

here's a few things I'd say:
- Try to play more legato. Connect your notes more.
- Let your last notes ring longer. If you play extremely short lines, that's ok, but let the last note ring.
- You're playing a very fast tempo. I'd personally cut the tempo in half. Doesn't sound like 120, but rather 150 to me.
- It's cool to practice with a backing track, but use the metronome most of the time.

take care++

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#1603794 - 01/23/11 02:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
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Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Thanks knotty
I've listened a good few times now. I need to put in a good few hours practice. 10 or 15 before posting mynext mp3 up. In piping you woul call this tight playing. Pipitty pip pip pip. Highly detached.
I missed loads of 3rds as well. Maybe even more than i hit. There wasn't much swing at all either.
I will slow down. I have the chords inmyhead I think so noneedfor their support in playing.

I will practice with metronome set to 2, 4 at 80 bpm. I'll be back ina few days.

I'm a gettin a Yamaha p-95 B

Anything else in this price range I should consider folks?
SC
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#1603813 - 01/23/11 02:13 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Swing Cabbage - for what it's worth, just keep doing this. You sound in control. Interesting rhythms and phrasing. In fact I might even get back to it myself.

What backing-track are you using?
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#1603848 - 01/23/11 02:41 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
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Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Quote:
Ok you swingin'. hep cats . . .
here's some weekend fun for you all.
2 tracks for your exercising.
Autumn Leaves of course . . .
Walkin bass and walkin bass w drums
mp3 as well as midi. mp3 is at 150 bpm. midi is at 120 but of course changeable.
Walkin bass mp3
walkin bass midi
walkin bass + drums mp3
walkin bass + drums midi

And for those of you who want to figure out what the bass is doing (and don't have access to a score app) here\'s a pdf of the bass line.
remember that all 8th notes should be played as triplets (see the third bar)


Ten left thumbs
I was looking for a backing track playing at 60 like Jazzwee suggested. Even 80 woulda been grand. After searching came across above on page one and went for midi with drums. Chris said in post was 120.

The walking base was a new one for me. Need to just listen to it more cause used to 1,3,7 sound from lessons.

Thanks for your comments as well by the way.

There you go.
SwingCabbage
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#1603902 - 01/23/11 03:26 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Thanks, SwingCabbage, I found it and even managed to download it. I like the walking bass, somehow it's a bit of a relief after dense chords. I'll give improvising a go during the week.
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#1604071 - 01/23/11 07:39 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
SwingCabbage that's a hell of great practice IMHO. thumb Very good actually. You're finding the 3rds and venturing nearby and youre aware of the offbeats. That fact that it's short and broken up makes sense because of the tempo. That's pretty fast.

Now just remember that original exercise was Eighth + Half Note. So let it ring so you can hear it clearly.

The problem you're having is that at this tempo, you can't execute 8th notes yet. Too fast. So talking about swing or legato may be premature here.

This is a bigger achievement than you give yourself credit. If you want to not involve the LH (which is not a bad idea), I can give you a slower backing track. I'll record one or two for you later from my Iphone.

Very good work. You're inspiring TLT too!
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#1604289 - 01/24/11 12:41 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
SwingCabbage, here's an AL Backing track

Autumn Leaves Backing - 80bpm
http://www.box.net/shared/8bjpa2lks3

It's pretty slow for swing. This is practically ballad feel. Now even then, don't start with multiple eighth notes.

Reminder Goal 1:

1. You will play two notes. An Eighth and Half note in sequence. Legato.

2. Start the Eighth note on the offbeat. You can start on 1+, 2+, 3+, 4+ so don't feel rushed. There's plenty of time in a bar.

3. The offbeat note will be an approach note to the 3rd of the chord on the next downbeat. Now think about this. If you are starting on 4+, make sure the chord is the one for the next bar. Again to define an "approach note", it's a stepwise move to the 3rd (a step above or a step below). You are also allowed to approach it from the bottom chromatically (half step). But not from the top.

4. The second note as mentioned above is the 3rd of the chord and it must fall on a downbeat.

5. It's ok to skip playing if you lose your place. Don't feel rushed.

Those are the rules. Master this first. Stay disciplined here. Don't rush forward to something more complex until you can do this without fail. The next steps are geometric increases in complexity.
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#1604370 - 01/24/11 05:16 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
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Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Understand
Good to have focus
TANKS
will post later
SC
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#1604386 - 01/24/11 06:45 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Thanks for creating 60bpm track. Over and above the call of duty. Much appreciated.

Ordered piano with weighted keys. Will be able to slow down midi and record my own backing as well soon.

many thanks again.
SC
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#1604974 - 01/24/11 10:42 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: SwingCabbage]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: SwingCabbage
Thanks for creating 60bpm track. Over and above the call of duty. Much appreciated.

Ordered piano with weighted keys. Will be able to slow down midi and record my own backing as well soon.

many thanks again.
SC


SC, any track is a piece of cake. Comes out of my Iphone and direct to my Zoom H4. I don't have to do anything special. I can even change the key. If you want a change (like tempo), let me know and I can post it. It takes like 5 minutes.
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#1604992 - 01/24/11 11:08 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
cubop Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 28 2012


Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 368
Loc: Norway
Thanks Jazzwee. Have downloaded the backing track and used it with my keyboard.One of the best backing tracks I have been able to find. I guess you have made it on a DP, and then it is pretty good work. Some info on how you did it would be useful.
cubop

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#1604995 - 01/24/11 11:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Cubop, it's not made with a DP. It's made with an Iphone App called iRealbook, which is like Band-In-the-Box. All the common standards are pre-loaded with the chord changes. You can then make it play a backing track automatically, just by specifying a style (latin, bossa, swing, even 8ths) then give it a tempo. I've made it include only bass and drums and that's it.

This is what I use for practice daily. I plug the iphone into my amp and mix it with the sound of the keyboard. Or if you have FP7F, you plug it directly into the keyboard.

Piece of cake. And cheap too. I think it's under $15 with jazz styles. You can now also get latin styles (more advanced latin).

So if you don't have an iphone/itouch/ipad, I can make the tracks for you. Otherwise, get one of these devices as I consider it a killer app for jazz musicians. And it sounds good doesn't it? Sounds better than the live players I deal with and it doesn't need to get paid smile
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#1605022 - 01/25/11 12:07 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
cubop Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 28 2012


Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 368
Loc: Norway
jazzwee: I dont have an iphone or any of that stuff, so I think I will do some more searching on the net. Have checked Band in a box, but did not like the jazz tracks. I will get the Kawai MP6 in a couple of days, and will see what I can do with that. It has 100 rhytms, and some of them might be useful. I can also use the sequencer and do my own tracks.
The absolutely perfect solution would of course be a nice collection of Mehldaus and Jarrets backing directly plugged into your DP. Probably wont happen.
cubop

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#1605103 - 01/25/11 05:51 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Jazzwee

Was ging to ask how you are doing this on your iPhone. I use iPhone and iPad mainly but have had to go to computer for MIDI files. Cubop saved the journey.

I'll look into the iRealbook

Sounds like it could be usefull. Especially for backing track on the move with my mandolin.

Can you download and play midi files from other non iRealbook sources on your iPhone using iRealbook?

Will have something to post tomorow.

Talk Talk
SC
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#1605247 - 01/25/11 11:27 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: SwingCabbage]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: SwingCabbage
Jazzwee

Was ging to ask how you are doing this on your iPhone. I use iPhone and iPad mainly but have had to go to computer for MIDI files. Cubop saved the journey.

I'll look into the iRealbook

Sounds like it could be usefull. Especially for backing track on the move with my mandolin.

Can you download and play midi files from other non iRealbook sources on your iPhone using iRealbook?

Will have something to post tomorow.

Talk Talk
SC


No Midi. It has a single purpose. It plays a CHORD PROGRESSION. No melody. You can enter your own progression too so it is unlimited for that purpose.
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#1605794 - 01/26/11 06:18 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Folks

Life has removed lumps of practicing time so only been able to do about 5 x 10 min sessions at piano in last few days.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Deeluk, I think I spotted your problem. Don't look at just the one chord, look at each ii-V-I formation as a group since they typically follow the same scale.

What you have to practice to avoid is starting your lines at Beat 1 of each chord. Start off with starting on the & of 4. This forces you to think in a less boxed in way. Don't look at the chords boxing you in. In other words, work out the connection patterns from chord to chord (see my answer to Barb for examples).

It's a bit like sightreading ahead I suppose (although this one you can do with your eyes closed).



This is where I am at now. Linking through the progression. Gonna post something tomorow.

I have found 60 to slow. Mind is processing way faster so each note seems almost like a single note phrase. I'm itching to pres another key and am wiating and waiting for the next metronome click.

80 or 90 seems better for me. I still go back to 60 though as I accept that getting emphasis and timing is best learnt here so that when you speed up you have good technique.
I think that it is probrablly good for me to get used to space and quiet.

My ears and fingers are strugling with the 4 chords that take up a half bar each in the B section. I am going to focus on this tonight and tomorow and then post up where I am at with the whole tune then.

That Real book app is seriously good. Thanks for telling me about that Jazzwee.

Talk Talk
SwingCabbage
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#1606062 - 01/26/11 02:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: SwingCabbage]
cubop Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 28 2012


Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 368
Loc: Norway
SwingCabbage, nice that you reminded me of the Real book. I think I need that now. They have it for C instruments Vol.2 on Amazon, and that should be what I want. As I understand it there is no Vol. I for C instruments, it just refers to its place among the other instruments.
I also found Jazzback, a collection of Jazz backing tracks. You can listen to sound samples before you buy, and some of them are pretty good, and some are not. Have not downloaded anything yet. Need to pick out the best tracks first.
cubop

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#1606100 - 01/26/11 03:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
SwingCabbage, I hear you on the tempo. Since the exercise calls for just 2 notes per chord, I personally prefer it faster.

I remember practicing around 100-120 at the beginning. It really is not an issue until you start using streams of 8th notes. That's when you may want to slow down to give yourself time to think.

I can't feel swing at 60. That's a ballad to me.
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#1606518 - 01/27/11 06:12 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Jazwee and others. Here is my taped version with the backing you gave me. Thanks again for that.

http://www.box.net/shared/gn4riez5vx

Hard not to resist adding other notes. The timing is off when I did it though. three notes in one quarter at times.

I tried to hold the 3rd for a full Quarter note. I also tried legato. Some mistakes that need Ironing out. notes not always connected.

I dont feel comfortable with the G C# F# B against Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 sequence.

Must be my ears. Maybe I need to play the full chords 2LH,3RH like in another lesson somewhere or something. Maybe I dont have these sounds in my head propperly.

Out of interest how would the Charlston be plyed over this sequence as there is no 2+

Might you play the second chord of the bar on the 2+ instead of where it appears at 2?

I believe that I can do this exercise correctly. It's just when you record its as if someone is breathing down you neck. With bad breath. And with a smokers wheeze. Quite distracting.

Comments welcome. I am done with all this space. I can do it better. I need to move on though. Which of the lessons or steps is next. I will do three of four of this lesson with each practice until it is engrained. just like I still do 3 or 4 Charlston 17 with RH melody at the start of each practice.
Still have improvement there as well.

Talk Talk

Swing Cabáiste


Edited by SwingCabbage (01/27/11 06:16 AM)
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#1606565 - 01/27/11 09:00 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
SwingCabbage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/11
Posts: 81
Loc: Éire
Having listned a few times i can see that i missed the downbeat quite allot
Was also trying to put 3rd on beats 2 , 3, and 4 rather than just allways on 1.
Also played 16th and12th notes in places.
will redo this tonigt when I have the pixies to bed.

Piano arrived today.
Yeehaa yippee
Will be able to work on upbeat emphasis soon.
Gonna un pack after swimmin and let the kids loose on it.
Swing Cabáiste
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#1606750 - 01/27/11 01:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: SwingCabbage]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Hi SwingC, sounds nice! smile

I'm not really in a position to make erudite comments but:

Originally Posted By: SwingCabbage



I dont feel comfortable with the G C# F# B against Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 sequence.



For the Dm7 try F natural.
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#1606765 - 01/27/11 02:25 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
SwingCabbage, the beginning started out shaky and then I could hear you getting your footing in there and then it really sounded good.

You were not supposed to shoot for beat 1. You can shoot for beat 1, 2, 3, 4 for chord tones since they are all valid. So this was a successful exercise. Just make it consistent though on holding the chord tone down and making it "ring".

You are training yourself here to understand the upbeats and downbeats and you do it well.

Do this more often so it's ingrained in you and then proceed to the next step.

The next step is to add some step wise moves after the chord tone. Start with an extra note, and extra two notes, or three. And the direction of the notes can be up or down or repeats. But stay within the scale.

On the question of scale, | Em7 A7 | is a D scale, so sticking to the original G scale, just make sure to use C# instead of C.

On the |Dm7 G7| that's a C scale so ALL white notes.

On Charleston on half bars, there's no reason to actually play Charleston pattern all the time. If you listen to actual recordings, you can skip the 1st stab or 2nd stab, or do all 2nd stabs, etc. Often you do it only when the RH is not busy.

So when you're doing two chords in one bar, you could just play the chord at the top of the beat for the chord.

Good progress SC! I hope other people are copying you as they lurk. I have a feeling, a lot of people will have a hard time keeping up. smile
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#1607110 - 01/27/11 10:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
An Explanation of Swing

I just want to on this thread that we've arrived at some breakthrough discussions in the Advanced thread on understanding swing that has been proven by a sequencer and resulting recordings. This breakthrough just got clarified in my head the last few days. I've been mulling this problem for years.

The premise is this: swing isn't learned by thinking of "long-short long-short". Swing can be accomplished even by playing straight eighth notes like classical music. It will swing as long as the offbeat note lands in a particular spot on the beat. What I have now called the sweet spot.

Instead of repeating the discussions here, I will just point out that I put the explanation on my blog (see link below). Further explanations may build from this. Hundreds of posts here are probably related to swing and my swing examples have been download thousands of times.

When I started jazz, I played my swing eighths like everyone in this thread and the same as every beginner. We all think we understand swing the same way. Triplet feel notated as Dotted Eight + Sixteenth. So my current teacher told me that to swing, forget about the exaggerated articulation and instead he had these instructions:

1. Play straighter (keep eighth notes even)
2. Accent Offbeats (the + in the bar)
3. Lay Back
4. PLAY LEGATO

I can hear this done by all the top players, particularly the modern players, and yet it wasn't entirely clear how to make it sound good. Horn players play like this all the time and that's where modern swing is derived from I think.

The above formula gives a general guideline with some sensible variations. #1 cannot be accomplished at slow tempos, #2 Accents are variable as far as amount, and there are grouping accents as well that is independent of swing, and #3 is vague because it is not clear how much to lay back.

The blog entries I made explains a little bit of how to arrive at this exact point where it swings. Now the difficulty in practice is if you can keep in focus so that you keep that same point on the beat. That's the long term goal. But at least now, I can state that we know the target.

I am confident that these explanations are a breakthrough and could possibly help explain swing in a theoretical construct instead of just saying that "swing is a feel". Yes it is a feel, but now I can tell you "what to feel".

Just for putting this into perspective, this is how a modern jazz artist swings (my teacher)
http://www.box.net/shared/k13ibez7c0

Thanks to Scott Colleta for making the sequencing test recordings that demonstrate these points with precision and to 'drummer turned pianist' riverrun for inciting the idea.

I want to say too that most of my new understanding of this came from watching Peter Erskine Drum Instruction videos on youtube. I may post some short ones that really are useful for pianists.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Piano 88
My Blog

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#1607119 - 01/27/11 10:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
This is Peter Erskine explaining the idea of subdividing by singing "Uh". Listen to the jazz example. Eye opening to me.

_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Piano 88
My Blog

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