Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Kawai CP136 excellent or overkill for an absolute beginner?

Sorry for the newbie question, long story short I have been offered a demo Kawai CP136 for the equivalent of about $2,200 USD. I was wondering if this was unnecessary for a beginner or a fantastic opportunity?


I played piano for a little while as a youngling but stopped soon after as the family wouldn't upgrade from the "toy keyboard" I was using at the time! Piano teacher wouldn't come back until they did so that never eventuated.

I am now 27 and very serious about learning piano again (using my own funds and motivation now I'm financially independent) and I would like to learn through the traditional route, grading and exams etc.

At first I was recommended the NP30 by the Yamaha dealer, but I wanted something that felt better so I ended up purchasing a Casio CDP-100 online.

I was thoroughly disappointed with it as the middle key notes and the knock back sound from the keys was painful even to my newbie ears.

I managed to return the unit and have been in the market for a replacement.

I really don't mind spending a bit more money (but I have to buy a digital), and this time I was adamant about going to music stores in my area and playing as many of them as possible before buying. You can't buy from spec sheets alone, I learnt this the hard way.

So somehow I went from looking at the NP30 to a CDP100, to testing out the YDP-141 and then falling in love with the Kawai CN23.

I'm suffering from a case of "just pay a little bit more... little bit more... little bit more" and I was adament about going no further than the Kawai CN23 since I'm only a learning pianist. But I've been given the opportunity to pick up a demo CL136 for what I believe sounds like an unbelievably fantastic price.

I don't mind spending (essentially twice) the money for the CL136, as long as I'm getting what I pay for and it's not a waste of a piano for an absolute beginner.

What are your expert opinions? As teachers, would you say the CL136 is overkill or a fantastic opportunity?

I should also note that I've researched and tested the YDP-141, P95, S31, YDP-161, P155, CLP?320, Korg SP-250 and Kawai CL-25. I know it sounds brand bias but I would prefer to stick with Yamaha or Kawai after all the keys I've test-bashed over the last few weeks.

Thanks!

well, if you just want to learn to play the piano, it would seem with this keyboard, you're spending a fair amount of money for all the extras.

Do you really want a keyboard with 1,000 sounds and the ability to provide you with automatic accompaniment?

What are your musical goals?

The 1,000 sounds and bells and whistles completely turn me off - I most certainly don't need that.

My musical goals are to take it as far as I can, but certainly not make a career out of it. Just a passionate hobby really at best.

The points for the CL136 I was guessing is mainly about the keys, which I assume is weighted significantly more like an acoustic than that of the CN23.

To be honest when I played both I didn't really notice a difference.

Unlike the Yamaha GHS, GH, GH3 rating system, I don't know how to compare the Kawai's key system. I don't know how the CN23's hammer weighted keys compare with the Yamaha GHS or GH keys.

But your initial response is pointing me more towards settling with the Kawai CN23, maybe even something more basic! The CL-25 is exceptionally affordable by comparison.

Regarding the various flavors of keyboard action design, just go with what feels best. A digital keyboard will never have the exact action of an acoustic piano and most of what you read is hype. I'd love to conduct a blind fold test on those who believe all the advertising hype.

Also remember, in this shaky financial time, dealers may be more receptive to haggling. Don't be afraid to haggle, it's your right and while they might feign indignation, it's still your money and you can spend it wherever you want. Walk out of a store if you need to. Visit as many stores as you can.

See if you can work out a deal where if you're not happy with your purchase, you can return it minus a small fee. If the dealer makes the agreement to use your refund on another piano, you have no haggling leverage - you will pay the price on the second piano he asks.

You sometimes have to live with a keyboard before little things start irritating you. By then it's too late and you're stuck with your purchase.

By just purchasing a basic keyboard - just a piano sound, you may wind up spending less than you think. I see those keyboards with automatic accompaniment and hundreds of sounds and I think of old guys with bright yellow slacks and white shoes trying to impress old ladies with blue hair, ... but that's just me.

Take your time and ask around ... and not just here.

When I bought the CP136, the CA63 was not available.
Nowadays, knowing what I know, I would probably choose the later. And possibly I would have had more luck with the CA61 that was available at that time.
I would combine it with a Korg PA500 keyboard, this will give the same price and equal or better accompaniement features. I wanted to avoid the hassle and believed the CP136 is ready to go and less work.
Yes, at this time I wanted the auto accompaniement features.(And still want it)
I wanted this mainly to write my own accompaniement with the inbuilt sequencer. Because Kawais sequencer is much better than Yamahas and because I did not want ordinary plastics keys I finally decided for the CP136 over a Yamaha CVP303.

Now here what I have to say about some of the components:

Keyboard:
At this time keys with Ivory touch where not available for a reasonable price. The CP136 has an AWA Grand pro keyboard and the surface is not ordinary plastics. I think it is polyacryl, like it is used on lower end acoustics. I really like this, because it is less sticky and less slippery than odinary plastics. This is especially then the case when the skin is dry. People that dont suffer from dry skin will probably not notice the difference.
(I dont suffer, but I wash my hands often at work and before playing. 5 Minutes after the skin becomes very dry and an odinary keyboard feels slippery like impregnated with silicone. But in the meantime I learned to manage this. I use soap only when absolutely necessary and my skin improved much. Then I found a moisture balanced hand creme that helps when necessary. So, nowadays this would possibly not be a criteria for me)

Compared with newer keyboards the AWA Grand Pro has a disadvantage: It is necessary to release a key more than 50% before it can be played again.
The newer Kawai Keyboards are much better in this respect. Today this is not a problem for me, because I readjusted the keys. This is not simple it was a lot of work and requires technical skills.

The piano sound cannot compete with todays DP's. But it is a really beautiful sound. I did not care too much about this because I intended to use software pianos.

Pedal:
The pedal has a problem: Kawai claims this as a 8-step pedal, but it is not. It has 6 steps, or, if you with a lot of good will, count the zero as a step, then it has 7 steps.
These steps are not equidistant.
When I press and release my pedal then it produces in turn these values:
70,77,84,93,107,127,107,93,84,77,70,0
These steps are so close together that this is hard to control with the feet. It seems also that there is some noise and the electronics are a little bit unstable. At a distinct position I get a uninterrupted stream of sustain events.
With a library that emulates pedal noises this sounds funny ;-). A little detail for the engineers here: The reason is probably the screening of the pedal cable. It is connected to frame ground instead signal ground. At the next opportunity I will try if I can fix that.

In this form the pedal cannot be used for the modern piano libraries that require a continuous pedal.

However, the CP136 also has an Expression pedal input and I intend to use this instead. This will require some work but I am confident this will do.

The newer Kawais (fom CAx1 and later) either have a pedal with true equidistant 8 steps and the latest generation is claimed to have continouous pedal.

The CDROM:
I dont use the recording feature, never wanted this.
But I believed it would be useful for lesson CD's. It has a A-B repeat feature that is not mentioned in the handbook but implemented in software. Now, unfortunately the A-B marks are deleted immediately, when the "pause" button is pressed.
So, indeed a A-B section can be played repetitively but pause is not possible without deleting the section.
This makes this feature useless for me. I use it sometimes to listen aportion of music, but dont systematically use it for CDs with lessons for this reason. There are better solutions.
So far I found the "loop" functionality of the MIDI player has the same limitation. (I am not totally sure)

Disk drive:
The disk drive has a technical flaw. If a disk is inserted while switching on the piano, then the disk formatting is destroyed and the content is lost. This can be prevented by avoiding this situation or write protecting all disks. I had to learn this the hard way, nobody from Kawai warned me and for some time I believed, my newly purchased USB disk was the reason. But it was not. I lost one disk that had some value for me and a lot of temporary disks. This never happened with my old Yamaha that also had a disk.

Notation Display:
Seen, laughed and forgotten. I never intended to use it, but it was funny to see. Even some of the inbuilt songs are displayed chaotically with a lot of sharps and no possibility to adjust. I wonder that they are not too ashamed to deliver something like this in sich a high end piano. They would better have omitted it.

Sound system, speakers and so on:
I think this is VERY fine. The wooden case and board at the rear seems to contribute a little bit. No noise. There is a separate sensitivity knob for the line in. Dont underestimate this, this is very useful. Never heard any hiss or hum even at the loudest volume setting.

So finally I am happy with this thing because finally I found my way to work around the different flaws that it has. But nowadays I would not longer recommend it.
Better choose an MP8II or a CAx3 if you want the Kawai keyboard.

HTH,

Peter

(Sorry for the typos. I type blind and fast and my notebook keyboard is not the best. If you find typos, you may keep them for yourself for your own use;-)

eyst,

I didn't notice the Kawai EP3 before I bought my Korg sp170 (which is just fine for my use-no remorse), but for $1100, the EP3 looks like real good competition for the Yamaha P155. Google and check out the specs. and demo videos. Perhaps others can share their experience, but I'm thinking the Kawai piano samples are not quite as bright as the Yamaha voices, which I would like.

Happy shopping, and get ready for the work of making piano music!

OMG! Is that a DP or some kind of spacecraft?

Ground control to Major Tom...

I adore Kawai but I'd suggest that's a bit of a beast unless you need a sequencer and audio / data drives. I'd always be wary of mechanical drives (CD, floppy). Either you won't use them so they will just sit there expensive, ugly and useless. Or you will use them and they will wear out, which means an expensive repair or a big dent in the resale value.

If you buy the cheaper instrument, either you'll be happy with it forever, with money in pocket, or you've got $1000 towards your next purchase in a year or two when you'll likely be much more clear about what you want from a digi piano...

in reality it looks much better than this image. ;-)
A better Impression is here:
http://www.kawai.de/service/cp116136.pdf
Thats me:

So far I could find out, it is an Ensemble Piano and not a spaceship ;-)

Peter

"...offered a demo Kawai CP136 for the equivalent of about $2,200 USD. I was wondering if this was unnecessary for a beginner or a fantastic opportunity?"

It could be some of both. I looked at those touchscreen console models, and I remember that they cost a lot of money. Couldn't nail down the exact specs on the Kawai US website, because the 136 seems to fall in between two current models.

There's something to be said for having the sequencer, voice recorder, RW CD, and amp-and-speakers onboard. You start buying these pieces separately and it starts running into some money and a lot of manual reading.

I could see this holding you for a few years and giving you something to grow into... if the floor model isn't too beat-to-death. And if you like it.

MP8II alone cost me two grand, so the deal is not bad, at all, by comparison.

Anyway, you can close the fallboard and all the 'stuff' is out of sight. That could raise the wife-approval factor...

eyst, the CP136 is a very nice instrument, however as others have suggested, it offers a number of features (many sounds, accompaniment styles, recording and sequencing controls etc.) that may prove to be a distraction to an absolute beginner.

I personally believe that the CN23 would be more suitable. The piano sounds are superior to those found on the CP136, while the new 'RH' keyboard action is also very impressive.

Kind regards,
James
x

Thanks Dave, Peter, Jeff, Bob and Rob and James.

I was under the belief that much of the price commanded by the CL136 was due to the realism of the keys and not the other bells and whistles. If it's even inferior to the CN23 in some respects thats relevant to me, than there is really no point in me getting a CL136 at all even if it was just $50 more. You have all sold me on the CN23.



Just a quick off-topic question, my cousins are experienced pianists and all own acoustic pianos. Since i'll be the first of the extended family to get a DP I was wondering how high quality recording would be done with a CN23 (Or YDP-141). Is the best way to get a midi-usb cable and use software to get the best quality output? Or would it be possible to record directly into the PC's line in.

Reason I ask this, the CN33 has a Line Out, the CN23 only has headphones out. I have heard incredibly clean recordings using Line Out's on P155's and was thinking whether that can be done on the CN23 which dosn't have a Line Out. I ask this because I have tried recording into Audacity my Casio CDP-100 using it's headphones out to my PC's line in, and despite all the care and fine tuning I've researched online, the quality of the recording was absolutely awful. Are high quality recordings due to DP's having an actual Line Out? If so, perhaps I should also consider the C33.

If you plan to do recordings, I would chose the CN33. The additional Line-INs are also nice, if you want to try Pianoteq or a similar software.

One feature, that the CN23 is also missing compared to the CN33 is the memory for the default settings. If you change something like the keyboard touch type or other settings, the CN23 resets them to factory defaults every time you switch it off and on. With the CN33 you can save your settings to get loaded, when you power it on.

Recording can take a bit of experimentation. Circuits interact, so some outputs mate much better with some inputs than others. Adequate recordings are possible from many headphone outputs, but line-out is much more standardised (albeit with two standards, 'pro' and 'consumer' - a 'pro' output will typically overdrive 'consumer' gear).

PC 'line-in' quality can be also very variable and there can be all manner of hidden settings in the PC mixer software. If you haven't done so, try recording a different source (such as an mp3 player) to confirm that the issue is with the keyboard not with the PC config. Levels are important - you need the source to be set to the optimum level for the PC input, and the PC mixer level set to capture as much clean signal as possible before distortion. A USB audio box can often offer a big upgrade for not much cash. MIDI is a whole other thing as it's like an ongoing roll of player-piano instructions with no analog or digital audio transferred - I'd say it was a good way to record a composition but not a great way to capture a performance.

If recording is a significant priority, do try to get a line-out equipped keyboard. Otherwise, some kind of adequate work-around should be possible. If your PC is a laptop, you could take it to the piano store and try recording from the headphone-out of a CN23... it may just sound OK!

I was afraid you would say that - more money to spend!

its a great idea though to install audacity into my laptop and take that into the music shop

"I was wondering how high quality recording would be done with a CN23 (Or YDP-141). Is the best way to get a midi-usb cable and use software to get the best quality output? Or would it be possible to record directly into the PC's line in."

But these are two different things. MIDI-over-USB transmits performance control data (like keypresses, instructions to change to a different instrument sound, etc), which is used by sequencers--- it is not sound itself. So yes, try the instrument's line out to the line in of your computer or a sound recorder.

You can get a fair way along into the subject by searching on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

That Casio CDP 100 was essentially an emulation of a grand
piano, on the extreme low end of digitals available
today, but still satisfactory for playing anything, from jazz
to big concertos. The fact that you got rid
of it so soon because it didn't sound good enough
to you bodes ill for your future on the piano, I fear.

The drop out rate in piano is very high, and if you dropped out
because something like the CDP 100 didn't sound good enough,
then I fear that you won't last long playing even on a fine digital piano
like the CP 136.

I use a Williams Overture, a low-end digital that I bought sight-unseen
online in 2009 for $600 (US). It's okay for any kind of playing,
and I regularly work on big concertos and jazz improvisation on it.
I have an expensive acoustic upright in storage, that I bought for
~$6000 in the early 1980's, a huge sum for an upright back then
(a similar model today would be in the ~$20,000 price range). It
stays in storage, because I feel that the Overture is good enough
for everyday playing, and a more expensive piano, digital or
acoustic, would do nothing for me.

Now it depends from what you want or expect from a piano.

I prefer piano music that lives more out of sound and feel than out of virtuosity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq_IF6So5Lc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfKcnaOXCkA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbJA1TOGZxQ

There is NO digital piano than can make these sounds....
(But with Galaxy I come quite close to it)

Peter

Dave,

Got to admit that I love your colorful imaging of old guys: "... bright yellow slacks, white shoes, ladies with blue hair ...". You have made it sound like it's almost fun to be an old fart. As Eliza Doolittle sings in My Fair Lady, "Just you wait, 'enry 'iggins, just you wait! ..." Your turn to be one will surely come. Come to think of it, is My Fair Lady before your time?

But seriously, for this old fart anyway, automatic accompaniment does look like fun. I know you don't need it for learning to play the piano. Yet the demo videos make it look like so much fun to play with auto-accompaniment. But it may not be easy to do. It seems that you need to have a good grounding in modern music before you can play that free-style, rhythmic tune in order to jive with auto-accompaniment. Is this a correct assessment?

For boards that do not come with auto-accompaniment, can this be provided via a mp3 player? Are versions of auto-accompaniment available to mp3 players?