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#1479036 - 07/22/10 09:56 AM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: Morodiene]
moscheles001 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/13/08
Posts: 753
Loc: Northeast Pennsylvania
Some people insist that words can mean whatever anyone else says they mean. Yet, when they order a pizza with pepperoni, actually expect to get a pizza with pepperoni.

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#1479050 - 07/22/10 10:13 AM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: moscheles001]
Stanza Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 1458
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Lets talk Tiger Woods....clearly he was his golf-loving father's "project". Fantastic golfer...fantastic person?
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#1479071 - 07/22/10 10:32 AM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: Stanza]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
hippymusicman has a valid point here: what on earth does the term mean anyway? It's a continuum from dunce to prodigy, and in golfing terms Tiger Woods was clearly a prodigy, but it's all a moot point once you're into adolescence and heading toward adulthood: Tiger Woods does not win EVERY tournament in which he competes....

so at best this label is one that applies for a short while before you reach maturity, and then says nothing much about anything apart from your past.....

there are plenty of studies showing that prodigy is almost completely a matter of time spent (the 10,000 hours thing is part of these research findings), but of course, it's a rare 3 year old who wants to spend hours a day doing the same narrow range of activities....

aspiring to prodigy seems to have it the wrong way about.... and may be why it is so rare for a prodigy to be happy....
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1479076 - 07/22/10 10:36 AM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: moscheles001]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10422
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: moscheles001
Some people insist that words can mean whatever anyone else says they mean. Yet, when they order a pizza with pepperoni, actually expect to get a pizza with pepperoni.


Indeed.

No, I don't think hippymusicman makes a valid point at all, unless you think language itself is meaningless.

People may not have noticed, but as I posted above, there is a sizable literature on this notion of 'prodigy.' You cannot have a meaningful discussion unless you are fairly precise about terms. I guess those of you who think all conceptions like this are meaningless likely think all science is just babble too, because every label just means something different to every person. Genuine communication requires a common understanding of terms, or at least a common understanding of why people are defining terms differently.
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#1479080 - 07/22/10 10:41 AM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: Piano*Dad]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12216
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: moscheles001
Some people insist that words can mean whatever anyone else says they mean. Yet, when they order a pizza with pepperoni, actually expect to get a pizza with pepperoni.


Indeed.

No, I don't think hippymusicman makes a valid point at all, unless you think language itself is meaningless.

People may not have noticed, but as I posted above, there is a sizable literature on this notion of 'prodigy.' You cannot have a meaningful discussion unless you are fairly precise about terms. I guess those of you who think all conceptions like this are meaningless likely think all science is just babble too, because every label just means something different to every person. Genuine communication requires a common understanding of terms, or at least a common understanding of why people are defining terms differently.


Well said, both of you!
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#1479102 - 07/22/10 11:07 AM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: Morodiene]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
I was taking as read that hippymusicman has invalid points.

The valid point is that the label 'prodigy' signifies little of consequence, particularly in the context of this discussion which asks not for evidence or research-based findings but your own thoughts. And one gets the impression that the question is not being asked in order to find the results of academic research in this field.

Brooke - are you interested in the research into high achievement in specific skill acquisition in young children, or are you wondering if you might be a prodigy yourself (and if not, how to become one)? Cos there's some good research out there that answers these questions, and it comes down to effort matched with appropriately focussed family support, and starting young enough.

Although there are some visual artists who take up painting in their dotage to great acclaim - do we regard these as 'prodigies'?
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1479139 - 07/22/10 11:54 AM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: cast12]
Brooke Taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 161
Loc: Citrus Park, Tampa, FL
Dear cast12,

I think I am FAR from the most talented pianist of all time. Nor a prodigy! What makes you think that? Haha.
_________________________
Currently working on - Ballade No.1 in G minor Opus 23 by Chopin and Un Sospiro by Liszt

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#1479142 - 07/22/10 12:00 PM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Brooke Taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 161
Loc: Citrus Park, Tampa, FL
Hello Elissa!

No, I am not wondering if I am a prodigy. I just find the topic to be very fascinating! I don't even know if I am or not. My guess, is no. I just love playing!

-Brooke
_________________________
Currently working on - Ballade No.1 in G minor Opus 23 by Chopin and Un Sospiro by Liszt

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#1479143 - 07/22/10 12:00 PM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: Piano*Dad]
Brooke Taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 161
Loc: Citrus Park, Tampa, FL
I agree with Morodiene! Well said!
_________________________
Currently working on - Ballade No.1 in G minor Opus 23 by Chopin and Un Sospiro by Liszt

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#1479145 - 07/22/10 12:02 PM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: WinsomeAllegretto]
Brooke Taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 161
Loc: Citrus Park, Tampa, FL
WinsomeAllegretto,

You have a good point. That is what I think. Thanks for answering!

-Brooke
_________________________
Currently working on - Ballade No.1 in G minor Opus 23 by Chopin and Un Sospiro by Liszt

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#1479148 - 07/22/10 12:03 PM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: pianoloverus]
Brooke Taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 161
Loc: Citrus Park, Tampa, FL
Great answer, Pianoloverus!
_________________________
Currently working on - Ballade No.1 in G minor Opus 23 by Chopin and Un Sospiro by Liszt

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#1479275 - 07/22/10 03:23 PM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: Brooke Taylor]
jdhampton924 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 1009
Loc: Evansville, Indiana
Recently read an article that said Lady Gaga was a prodigy, so I don't think anyone knows the actual definition...now where is my dictionary...I will go find it later :p

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#1479328 - 07/22/10 04:52 PM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: jdhampton924]
Brooke Taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 161
Loc: Citrus Park, Tampa, FL
Lady gaga? That's really funny. No offense to anyone here that likes her, but I think her music is pure garbage. Did you know Justin bieber is a prodigy too? I'm serious. Usher claimed that he is. I had a good laugh at that. And that Greyson chance.... He sings lady gaga and plays the piano and people consider him a prodigy. People abuse that word, I'll tell ya.

- Brooke
_________________________
Currently working on - Ballade No.1 in G minor Opus 23 by Chopin and Un Sospiro by Liszt

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#1479390 - 07/22/10 06:27 PM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: Brooke Taylor]
bitWrangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1789
Loc: Central TX
I'm no fan of Justin Bieber or Lady Gaga, however, basing whether or not the term "prodigy" applies by looking at the body of their commercial work seems short sighted. They may very well be musical prodigies, but if they need to sing bubble gum pop songs to "bring home the bacon" (and lots and lots of it), then that says nothing about their musical talents. Plus, I think it can very well be argued that even if they are not purely "musical performance" prodigies, they certainly are "popular music revenue generation" prodigies.

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#1479406 - 07/22/10 07:13 PM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: bitWrangler]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: bitWrangler
I'm no fan of Justin Bieber or Lady Gaga, however, basing whether or not the term "prodigy" applies by looking at the body of their commercial work seems short sighted. They may very well be musical prodigies, but if they need to sing bubble gum pop songs to "bring home the bacon" (and lots and lots of it), then that says nothing about their musical talents. Plus, I think it can very well be argued that even if they are not purely "musical performance" prodigies, they certainly are "popular music revenue generation" prodigies.


Well, if Bieber, or Gaga are prodigies then I'm the Pope (excuse me while I convert to Catholicism). "Popular music revenue generation" prodigies? Hardly. Pop music stars these days have little to do with their own success outside of looking good and pulling off a slick dance move or two.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1479410 - 07/22/10 07:30 PM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: Brooke Taylor]
cast12 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 219
Originally Posted By: Brooke Taylor
Dear cast12,

I think I am FAR from the most talented pianist of all time. Nor a prodigy! What makes you think that? Haha.


You've stated that can play Prelude and Fugue no 2 from the WTC, the first two pages of Sonata Pathtique, the Raindrop Prelude, and the first page of Un Sospiro. Yet you've only been playing for ten weeks.

From what I know, no pianist in history -- not even Liszt or Rachmaninoff -- progressed as rapidly as you have.

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#1479442 - 07/22/10 08:48 PM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: cast12]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8935
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Admittedly Justin Bieber is an easy target for the fake-prodigy category, but I don't think it's quite that simple. He has had phenomenal success, and it was a YouTube video (when he was a nobody) which came to the attention of a Big Wig and thus propelled him to stardom and the Big League. Clearly he is doing something right, though it remains to be seen if his career can take him past the trajectory of the myriad pop prodigies who ended up on the junk heap after they physically matured.

Of course there is a fair amount of 'packaging' involved, and far be it for me to tell his millions of adolescent girl fans that -after all- it's not my kind of music. (My non-classical tastes are more jazz and '80's pop.)

IMO, one of the greatest film star prodigies was Brad Renfro. His performance with Susan Sarrandon in 'The Client' (one of my favourite movies) was brilliantly outstanding in every respect. By all accounts he should have gone on (like Leonardo DiCaprio) to far greater things, but alas, every subsequent film was in some sense a disappointment, and after a while I stopped seeing them. And dear Brad had his battles with substance abuse which finally took their toll. That was a sad day for me as I pondered what could have been.
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Jason

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#1479450 - 07/22/10 09:16 PM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: cast12]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8935
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: cast12

You've stated that can play Prelude and Fugue no 2 from the WTC, the first two pages of Sonata Pathtique, the Raindrop Prelude, and the first page of Un Sospiro. Yet you've only been playing for ten weeks.

From what I know, no pianist in history -- not even Liszt or Rachmaninoff -- progressed as rapidly as you have.

We have been through this on the board before, so perhaps I'll leave well enough alone. And I will also leave well enough alone what I was playing at 10 weeks. blush
_________________________
Jason

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#1479521 - 07/22/10 10:57 PM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: cast12]
Brooke Taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 161
Loc: Citrus Park, Tampa, FL
Dear cast12,

Yes, that is true, but I don't quite think that qualifies me as a prodigy! I don't know.
_________________________
Currently working on - Ballade No.1 in G minor Opus 23 by Chopin and Un Sospiro by Liszt

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#1479527 - 07/22/10 11:03 PM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: cast12]
Brooke Taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 161
Loc: Citrus Park, Tampa, FL
Woah woah, my goodness! It certainly is very nice of you to give me those compliments, but I don't think I could ever put myself in the same sentence as liszt or rachmaninoff!

But you know what's funny, most of the composers weren't prodigies themselves. Chopin & mozart was, but Beethoven, rachmaninoff, liszt (I don't think), or Bach were not prodigies. Excuse me if I am wrong, but it says no where that any of the listed composers were prodiges. How funny is that?

- brooke


Edited by Brooke Taylor (07/22/10 11:03 PM)
_________________________
Currently working on - Ballade No.1 in G minor Opus 23 by Chopin and Un Sospiro by Liszt

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#1479529 - 07/22/10 11:05 PM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: argerichfan]
Brooke Taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 161
Loc: Citrus Park, Tampa, FL
Argierchfan,

I don't quite get your reply! Could you explain? Sorry, I don't get a lot of things. I have trouble with social ques, and things like that.
_________________________
Currently working on - Ballade No.1 in G minor Opus 23 by Chopin and Un Sospiro by Liszt

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#1479531 - 07/22/10 11:13 PM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: bitWrangler]
Brooke Taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 161
Loc: Citrus Park, Tampa, FL
BitWrangler,

The reason I laugh when people say that justin bieber or lady gaga are prodigies, is because, well, they don't show that they have any significant amount of talent. Justin bieber, writes songs about teenage puppy love, that any moron could write, and most of his songs are all done up, because when he sings live, it's god awful. Lady gaga, In my opinion, any "singer" that has to dress up like an ignorant fool to get peoples attention, then there is obviously something missing. Talent. Don't get me wrong, I am all about individuality, but it's gotten way out of hand. Her songs are disgusting. Did you watch the telephone? It really puzzles me. Why people have to be so dirty. Sure, Justin bieber can write some songs, and make some overly done soundtracks, but give him a guitar and ask him to play an E minor, and I bet you he wouldn't know how.

- Brooke
_________________________
Currently working on - Ballade No.1 in G minor Opus 23 by Chopin and Un Sospiro by Liszt

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#1479533 - 07/22/10 11:14 PM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: stores]
Brooke Taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 161
Loc: Citrus Park, Tampa, FL
Great answer stores! I completely agree with you!
_________________________
Currently working on - Ballade No.1 in G minor Opus 23 by Chopin and Un Sospiro by Liszt

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#1479539 - 07/22/10 11:34 PM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: Brooke Taylor]
Afterthought Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/10
Posts: 35
I think that Lady Gaga is more interesting than the rest of them, and that makes her better, somehow. I wouldn't go as far as to say that she's talented, although nobody really knows the extent of her talent when her voice has been auto-tuned so much.

I'm no dancer, and I'm sure people who are serious dancers would differ on their opinions, but from what I can see, she seems better at dancing than many other celebrities.

Please nobody eat me alive for saying positive things about her!

Oh, and great comment, Brooke Taylor, about how "if any 'singer' has to dress up like an ignorant fool to get peoples attention, then there is obviously something missing. Talent."

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#1479549 - 07/22/10 11:51 PM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: Afterthought]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
The discussion about Lady Gaga and Justin Bieber demonstrates a lack of understanding about how the pop music world works. If anyone could do it then everyone would do it, and they don't. The 'talent' might not be as uncomplicated as being able to play the piano.

Prodigies are made. If prodigies don't put in the work they don't become any good at what they do. No one gets born skilled.

Although my three year old is freakish with a soccer ball, and has been since he took his first steps. Hmm!
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1479552 - 07/22/10 11:55 PM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: Afterthought]
Brooke Taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 161
Loc: Citrus Park, Tampa, FL
Thank you, Afterthought, for posting! I will have to agree with you. She is more interesting, as Justin bieber is just like any Nick Carter or jessy McCartney, but I am really not that harsh in real life. I thought that what I was saying was a bit too much. But people OBSESS, and it drives me crazy.
_________________________
Currently working on - Ballade No.1 in G minor Opus 23 by Chopin and Un Sospiro by Liszt

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#1479560 - 07/23/10 12:03 AM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Brooke Taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 161
Loc: Citrus Park, Tampa, FL
Dear Elissa,

I agree with you on the prodigy part, but in my opinion, all of the teeny pop bands have been a joke. Jonas brothers, Justin bieber, lady gaga, etc. What they are doing to ME, isn't talent. I don't want to come off as critical, but it's just my opinion. There are some VERY good musicians out there that are so unknown, yet these people are in the spotlight. Why? While these unknown singers are writing some songs that actually portray to real life, Justin bieber is writing yet another song about this girl he is in love with singing the same verse OVER and OVER again. And people obsess over it. Thank you for posting!
_________________________
Currently working on - Ballade No.1 in G minor Opus 23 by Chopin and Un Sospiro by Liszt

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#1479568 - 07/23/10 12:18 AM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: Brooke Taylor]
Afterthought Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/10
Posts: 35
Very true, very true. I have to admit that she has made it to the top, along with others, which shows hard work. I like how you put it, Elissa Milne. "If anyone could do it then everyone would do it, and they don't. The 'talent' might not be as uncomplicated as being able to play the piano."

Who knows? Perhaps these people really CAN sing? I know that they can sing and dance better than me, and they must have something that I don't have, or else I would be in their same shoes.(Not that singing and dancing better than me is an accomplishment.) Some people seem to like the electronic sound to music, so the artists might add it to their music for fame. Perhaps they made a bad decision of signing a particular contract, and are now controlled like puppets. We don't really know the full story, although that doesn't mean that we have to like them. The point is, they've made it to the top, and somehow they're staying at the top, so surely that could be a talent in itself?

And don't fret, Brooke Taylor, to me you didn't sound too harsh. It's also very true about how some obsess, but, then again, everything is obsessed over by somebody.


Edited by Afterthought (07/23/10 12:21 AM)

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#1479572 - 07/23/10 12:25 AM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: Brooke Taylor]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8935
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Brooke Taylor

I don't quite get your reply! Could you explain? Sorry, I don't get a lot of things. I have trouble with social ques, and things like that.

That's okay, you're new here. wink

Stick around, things will make sense.
_________________________
Jason

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#1479573 - 07/23/10 12:31 AM Re: Can a prodigy be "made"? [Re: Afterthought]
Brooke Taylor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 161
Loc: Citrus Park, Tampa, FL
Maybe they can! I can NOT sing, nor dance. It's just my opinion on their music. But what do I know, I'm just some 14 year old kid! I do understand obsessions, because I have Aspergers, and I have had some very bad obsessions that have taken over me completely. But hearing about these people everyday, it just bothers me when it all comes down to it. You know?


Edited by Brooke Taylor (07/23/10 12:31 AM)
_________________________
Currently working on - Ballade No.1 in G minor Opus 23 by Chopin and Un Sospiro by Liszt

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