Hello everyone!
I'm new on this forum,found lots of useful info here.
And now I would like to ask for some advice.

I have been playing piano for 14 years, but for various reasons had to take a break for 2 years. Now i finally have the chance to continue with my hobby and decided to buy a new digital piano (was using an acoustic before).
My budget is about 1200 euros and after reading several reviews I have found that one of the most popular instruments in this price range are the Yamaha CLP-320 and the Kawai ES6.

Now I need help to decide which one of those two to buy (or maybe there are other good pianos in this price range that I should know about?)

I do understand that it would be the best to go to a music store and try both out, but I haven't had the time to visit one yet. I plan to do it soon,though.

What I would really like to know is which of the 2 pianos has better key action. I also read that Yamaha's CLP 330+ / CLP 230 GH3 keys are on a whole new level compared to the 320's GH, so would it be better to save up 300 more euros and get a clp 230 / 330?

I also would like to add that size and portability of the instrument don't matter to me. What really is important, is the piano sound and the key action.

I would really appreciate if someone who has had experience with these instruments could give me some advice.

greetings from France,
Phil

p.s excuse me for my english if I made any mistakes.

For the touch...take the Yamaha.....

For the sound.....matter of taste....

Funtionality:
The Kawai has, in my opinion, many bells and whistles like rhythmboxes etc.....

The yamaha is only a nice piano with some more voices.

So what do you want? Playing classical, jazz, modern, new-age etc....so only piano...take the yammy....

Good luck to your choice....

Best regards from The Netherlands.

Johan B

Thanks for the quick reply Johan B!


I won't really have a use for all the whistles, "meows" , etc . Maybe some strings and a layering function to put them on top of piano sound, but in most cases only pure piano sound, so I guess I should go with the Yamaha then. Next step is to test both pianos in a store. Will probably do it some time next week.

Keep me informed....Phillie....good luck.......

I play the clp320 PE...is some more glossy......
Mostly play bach, Schumann, jazzstandards and lazy jazzy music on it with piano 2....

But above all: go to stores, play, feel, listen and make your decision.

Best regards,
Johan B

The difference between Yamaha's GH3 and GH is subtle. You might even be hard pressed to notice the difference. GH3 does allow you to repeat a note without first stopping it.

The Yamaha GH/GH3 will have a slightly heaver feel compared to Kawai. Neither is better, you will just have to try them.

If sound is important, the weak link in most all digital pianos is the speaker system. Imagine a stereo system that used those tiny speaker found in most digital pianos. How would a CD recording of a great piano performance sound like if your HiFi Stereo used the speakers from the digital piano? So, you may want to look at improving the sound by connecting the Line Out on the DP to a better external sound system

When you test the pianos, bring with you some high quality headphones so you can hear the internal sound, bypasing the speakers

Definitely go for the better keyboard. The GH3 is worth it. But note that the better Kawai and Roland models have fine keyboards, too. Try them out.

In this price range, extra money buys a much better keyboard action. Go for it.

Given, there is no substitute for a live sound/touch/feel audition.
We're also looking at DPs for my daughter, tomorrow’s audition of the CA63 (compared to a Yamaha CLP340 and Roland HP305) should finalize the choice. So far, the Kawai has the lead.

On paper (do a Search on the actions/sound)…
Among consoles I wouldn’t get a Clavinova without the GH3, for a GH take a closer look at the YDP160/161 (or P155 for a slab piano). There is indeed a difference from the GHS (black and white with a P85/CLP340), with a closer gap between GH-E/GH3 by the forum.
On the other hand (again, from my reading), the AHAIV-F is above the GHS and is more comparable to the GH-E/GH3.
As for a Clavinova/GH3 my minimum would be a CLP340… a ‘big’ jump from the CLP330… not too far from the CLP370… with the CLP380 outclassing itself on price – again on paper, and subjectively.

Good luck.

Did I understand you right that a YDP160/161/P155 with GH is superior to a Clavinova with GH?

No, it is comparable.

I think what he means is that getting a YDP160/161/P155 is cheaper than a Clavinova with the same results.

phillie, the CLP-320 and ES6 may be comparable in terms of price, however in my opinion they are geared towards different uses.

As you are no doubt aware, the CLP-320 is a console type DP, with integrated stand and three pedals - it is not a portable instrument.

The ES6 on the other hand, is a stage piano. An optional stand and three pedal unit is available, however this instrument is really intended to be portable.



In which case, may I suggest you consider the Kawai CN23. This is a console type DP with an integrated stand and three pedals, and features a superior piano sound and keyboard action compared to the ES6.

Kind regards,
James
x

Kawai James, thank you for your advice.

I will definitely have a look at the CN23.



The P155 and YDP 161 are indeed cheaper, but the ydp 160 has almost the same price as the clp 320. But the ydp definitely looks like a good alternative so far. Will try it out at the store too

phillie, for the sake of balance, I should point out that Roland and Casio also offer console type digital pianos within your budget.

Kind regards,
James
x

hello again!
It has been a long time since my last post, but I had been busy / away on vacation.
Anyway,
after some hours of testing pianos at the music store, I finally decided to go for the Yamaha CLP-320. Out of all DPs in this price range, I liked its sound and touch the most. My new baby should be delivered on wednesday (damn, I can't wait :D)

I want to say thanks to everyone who replied and gave advice.

I also have one more question regarding recording the CLP 320 and transferring the recorded music to my PC.It will be my first experience recording a digital piano so i'm completely clueless about it. After some research I have found that the CLP 320 doesn't offer a big choice in terms of recording as it has only 2 headphone outputs and a midi in/out.

As far as I have understood, transferring midi to my pc via a midi to USB interface wouldn't be an option, since midi isn't actually "sound" , but just notes.

Another option would be connecting the piano's headphone out to my PC's line in, but how good will the sound be?

Are there any other options? I thought about getting a good microphone and use it for recording, but it would be a problem because I live near a railroad, trains are passing by every 15 minutes so the noise would disturb the recording.

Please help me!

Glad you bought the CLP320, I used to own the CLP220. It's not a high end DP but good enough.

For the recording, the better way for 320 is get a Midi to USB cable and a virtual piano for recording. The MIDI cable can output the signal, then virtual piano software take over the job and selected the best sampled sound from the database. There are many virtual piano software on the Internet, based on our members' recommendations, I'd say Galaxy Vintage Piano D should be the best choice. There is a similar topic regards to this, take a look at post here.
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1474980

I never try to connect my DP's headphone to my computer, I don't have the propriety cable to do so. But listen to the sample from Vintage D, it's definitely better than CLP's on board chip samples.

Thanks for the Advice James Q!

I read some comments and reviews about Galaxy Vintage Piano D and it seems to be one of the best softwares out there, but for me it is too expensive at the moment ( have spent everything on my piano . Speaking of which, I received my CLP 320 today. Can't remember the last time I was excited like that when unboxing the DP.

The assembling took me about 1 hour. So far I am very happy with it, except for one downside - and, like I already mentioned in my previous post, it is recording your played music! there is no slot for a flash storage device to save your recorded songs and neither are there Line out jacks.

So either I can use a midi to usb interface or an audio cable to connect the headphones out to my pc. I tried following this guide http://www.pianoclues.com/how-to-record-piano/ but it just won't work for me.

I still don't understand,which is the best option:
1. connecting headphones out to line in
2. connecting headphones out to mic in

I tried both variants but there is still a lot of clipping in the sound, although i'm setting my piano's volume control almost to 0 and my pc's recording volume to 20%.

I keep wondering if the problem may lie in my audio cable. It's a 1/8 stereo audio cable.
Here's a photo of it.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Maybe upgrading the cable could solve the problem?

Option 1, definitely. Not sure why you are getting clipping though. To get the best signal to noise ratio you generally want the piano volume up fairly high.

You might want to invest in a USB or Firewire sound interface, which would give you more control over I/O gain and signal routing, and might also include a MIDI interface. There are a lot of really lame ones out there though, you have to shop very carefully for these products. If I needed one right now I'd probably go with the Presonus FireStudio Mobile:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/FireStuMobile/

I try to keep both, piano volume and recording volume low and that way there seems to be less clipping.
But if to follow your suggestion, should i keep piano volume high and mic recording volume low or both high?

As about the interface, I agree that it might be a big help, but it's costly and I try to solve the problem with the least expenses possible.

I would think that running a headphone signal turned all the way up into a 1/8" line in would overload it. You might try plugging your headphones into your computer and monitor your piano playing that way. Play some fff stuff and dynamically adjust the volume on both the piano and the volume applet of your computer while listening for both a full robust signal as well as distortion.

I tried a CLP-320 today and the action was too heavy for my taste. I like the Roland FP-7 and Yamaha CP5, how would you say the ES 6 compares to them in terms of keyboard action?

I followed your advice and it helped me a little bit, thanks!
I connected the piano's headphone out to my PC's line in and played around with the volume levels.

The clipping is now gone, but there is noise. The thing is, noise is present even if i turn down both, the piano's volume and the recording volume to 0,so it seems that the noise comes just from connecting headphones out to line in, so I'll have to deal with it. The goal is to remove as much noise as possible, but so far I've been unsuccessful. I tried using Audacity's noise removal tool. It does remove the noise completely, but at the same time corrupts the sound, so I'm stuck at this point

Phillie

There's a reason they are called recording engineers.

The goal is to get a nice full signal into your recording program without overloads. It's possible the noise your hearing is just your sound card driving the phones. Export your work to your IPOD and compare. Work on getting a recording with your hottest peaks being anywhere from 0db to -4db.
The goal of the previous routine I described to you was to be able to turn up the volume of the piano as high as possible without overloading your sound-card. At that point, the line in of your sound applet will set the recording level going into Audacity. Getting Audacity to show waveform peaks at max before clipping will ensure that you are recording at a full bit-depth. Most recording projects how-ever can also be done at 24bits. Engineers will typically not worry about getting too close to 0db when recording at that bit depth and will adjust the gain for 0 or -0.1db max peak during editing.
It's possible, if your able to maximize your various gain stages, the playback of your recorded piano at normal listening levels will exhibit a minimum noise floor.

If the noise is still there, when the recording volume slider is set to zero, then it is very unlikely that the noise comes out of the headphone output.

There are two possibilities in this case:
1) The recording DAC or preamp is noisy. To check this, pull the cable out of the piano and make a short to the plug. (Use tin foil or wire or what you have)
Then the input voltage is zero for sure and there cannot be a ground loop. Record this with the same settings that you use for piano recordings. If it is still noisy then the computer itself is the source. Then there is no other cure than to increase the audio volume at the piano to get better S/N ratio.

Edit: And, as emenelton wrote, pull all unneeded recording sliders (mic CD ...) to zero.

If you can exclude the computer itself as the noise source then possibilty 2) must be checked:

2) The noise is injected by a ground loop. Maybe this can be cured by connecting computer and piano to the same wall outlet. Maybe inserting the mains plug the other way round helps. If this doesnt help, then in this case an audio isolation transformer (DI box) would be the best solution.

In any case you should try to find the source of the noise by experiment and not by prejudice.


BTW. If the noise is generated inside the computer, then it can help to close unnecessary applications and to disable the speakers and disconnect unneccessary devices.

Phillie and James,

I own a clp320PE and I use to record just from the headphones to my laptop using audicity without any problem.....listen to the results......

Cable: use a simple big-jack to a small-jack into the micro-in of the laptop (use some quality say 1m € 12,--)

Phillie....I don not hear any strange noice..... for example:

Bach

Beatles

Perhaps it make difference taking headphones 1 or 2....try it.....

Best regards,
Johan B

Phillie wrote" The thing is, noise is present even if i turn down both, the piano's volume and the recording volume to 0,so it seems that the noise comes just from connecting headphones out to line in, so I'll have to deal with it."

Try muting the various other sliders on the volume applet of your computer.

hpeterh, thanks for the advice, I will check it tomorrow.



Wow! that's a very clean and nice sound.
Could you please give some detail on your recording process? Like how high you set your piano's volume. And do you do any postprocessing in audacity?

You said that you are connecting the cable to the mic in, but when I do that, the sound gets messed up, kinda distorted , BUT there is no noise.
When I connect to line in, the sound is nice, but noise is present. Do you think it could be an issue with my audio cable? I posted a picture of it in the post above. Also, does it make a difference if I use a thin cable like mine or a thick "guitar cable" like this one ( http://en.woodbrass.com/monster+symetriques+studiolink+cable+jack+st%20jack+st+1m ) ?

A saleman who has these cable for sell, would tell you, get a better cable ;-)

Those cables, if new are good. A cable with bad contact or bad screening would cause hum or cracles or dropouts, but not noise.
Of course the pro's dont like them because they arent sturdy enough for heavy duty usage on stage. But for home usage they are fine. Also the adapters that are totally made from metal (not plastics) are fine from my experiences. Best is when all contacts are plated with gold, because this doesnt corrode and ensures best contact.
BTW, how does the noise sound "cirp,squeek" .. or like rain?

Phillie,

About your questions.......

The recordings were made folowing. I put the volume of the clp at about 2/3.......and audicity input about 2,5 - 3........input setting: microphone.....also quite simple.......

The yamaha: studio grand (nr 2 of the voices) Output headphone the first of the front of the piano.

Succes and best regards,
Johan B

By the way....where are you living????

hpeterh,

the noise sounds often like "crackle" "crackle", but even when it's gone, there is still that humming background noise present. I will record something later so you can hear it.

Johan B,

thanks for sharing your settings, I will try like that, but first I'll get a new cable,because, like I posted earlier, when I connect to mic in, the sound gets terrible for some reason.

By the way, which of the 2 piano sounds on the clp320 do you prefer?
I think that the first one sounds more "juicy", but it depends on the music you play. Sometimes the second one is more appropriate, although I haven't had enough time yet to experiment with them ( I've had my new dp only for 2 days now )
Oh, and I live in Paris, France


Update:

Johan B, I listened one more time to the recordings you posted and they too contain that background "pshhh" noise,although it's not as loud as mine. Do you use Audacity's noise removal tool?

Thats normal. Dynamic microphones deliver very low voltage levels, measured by microvolt and millivolt, not by Volt.
Also the impedance is lower. To get the right frequency response a mic must be loaded with a matching impedance. That is not the case for line impedances.
There is another type of mic input that delivers the power for powered electrete microphones. The mic input is MONO, not Stereo and will in almost all cases give bad quality with line signals if it is not a combined line/mic input.


When there is a line-in then this must be used. Some inputs are combined line/mic and these will switch the amplification accordingly. But when there is a dedicated line-in, then use this.