Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Help w/ restoration issues

Well, I've finally got a spot for a piano and got a freebie off craig's list. It's a Conway from somewhere around 1920 I gather. I've repaired woodwind and some brass instruments for a bit, so I'm familiar with the general mechanical skills and borderline OCD necessary to repair an instrument, but I'm new to actually trying to do so to a piano.

Anyhoo... I've replaced the hammer rail, damper rail and back rail felts, also the sticker felts, adjusted the capstans, gotten rid of any apparent lost motion. I've also replaced the pedals, and it seems to me that it has just 2 plain issues at present.

One is that the bass dampers badly need replacing, to which I'll attend later...but also (the main reason for this post) many of the keys are kind of "dead." They require clearly more force to sound than they should.

Originally, most of them hit multiple times (bababonnnggg....!). I got rid of lost motion and then adjusted the regulating buttons which mostly alleviated that problem (though I think new hammer butt springs are wanting as well). The regulating button process seemed to deaden the keys further. But more than that, it still has the issue that some are more than others.

My question is basically what are some of the common causes of "dead" keys as I've described above. I've studied the action and it seems that the jacks don't quite "stab" properly at the hammer butt; however, it seems like they need to come out from under it so the hammer doesn't bounce on it. I'm just not sure what other things affect it.

Mellowyellow there could be many issues why your piano does not sound OK. One, it could be structually faulty and thats why you got it for nothing, two unless you can work your way through the proper regulation procedues one at a time and know what each adjustment does you will have a problem. Just replacing felts, hammer rail, pedals and damper felts will not solve your problem. My suggestion is to get a competant tuner to assess the piano before wasting money on felts etc.
Getting old PSO pianos working is not for a amateurs!
Best of luck anyway ;-)
Robin Stevens ARPT
South Australia

Lift the damper off of the string and pluck the string, compare with hammer blow - still sound dead or does it have more life?
Check your lost motion adjustment - if the jacks are not resetting completely you went too far.
To get them to escape a bit more and help with the double bounce you need a bit more key dip - shimming the balance rail is easy enough.

Thanks for the replies. I do realize this is not for the beginner, but as I said, I do have experience with the general dedication required and principles involved. I should clarify that part of the reason I got this was so that I could practice repairing. I am willing to invest in tools where needed, and also go through the regulation process step by step. I simply am not aware of all the details of said process yet :), and I realize that could well be a lot to explain. If there is a thread that covers it, I'd be plenty willing to read it.

It's true it was free for a reason, and yeah it needs work, but it's not a complete lost cause with broken parts and whatnot. The people were moving and had no room in their new place, etc... Though yes, I'm sure if it were in good shape, they could have gotten some cash for it.

I will investigate that key dip issue--thanks. I think the jacks are resetting properly, but I'll double check.

The plucking and hammer blow are similar, but not quite there. With a firm keystrike, the sound of the piano is fine...sorry if I mislead there. By dead I mean a lack of sensitivity which is clearly manifested in the action. Right now, I'm just going for a clear enough hammer blow to sound as it should, and getting all the keys to require the same touch...so I can play quietly up a scale and not find 2 notes not in attendance.

I notice the few good notes--the hammer is well closer to the strings after the key is struck. Part of the problem seems to be the backchecks. I've gotten some notes to improve by backing off my regulation button adjustment and bending the backchecks just slightly toward the action to catch the rebounding hammer (to avoid the previous double hits). It just isn't quite enough to be what it should. Some of the jacks just seem a little bit like their alarm clock went off and they hit snooze right at the top of their travel.

Anyway, thanks again. I'll fiddle about and I'll post any progress.

Mellowmeyer - How would you describe the striking surface of the hammers? Are they deeply grooved? Do they more or less wrap around the strings when the hammer makes contact? Chuck Behm

Oh the hammers are indeed rough haha. I plan to replace them eventually. They are old, pretty much yellow and yes, grooved indeed, even a little bit flattened. However, I did do a quick attempt at voicing by fluffing them up a bit and I did purchase the steaming iron tool (Weller soldering iron w/ custom tip). That did improve them, but I'd have to say they're still pretty sad.

If I hold several keys down, the resulting position of the hammers is a bit all over the place, it just seems tough to find a balance of getting a good clear strike without getting double hits... I'm not sure if the hammer butt springs being weak is enough to cause that much of a problem or not. When I get the babonging to stop, it's much nicer and more consistent, but the hammers seem to not "kick off" well...sluggish and the piano sort of sounds like it's singing with its mouth full :-P.

You need to file the hammers.

Mellowmeyer - I'll send you an article on filing hammers so that you can see what that involves. Before fiddling with anything else related to regulating the action, the hammers need to have a clean striking surface. After that, you can set the hammer blow (distance from the hammers to the string), and proceed to the subsequent steps involved with regulating the action. Until you are able to do that, you are just fixing the symptoms of a poorly regulated action, and not really curing anything at all. Chuck Behm

Thanks for that article and taking the time. For temporary purposes, I bent the hammer return springs back a bit so they would have some more life to them, and I spent the day today using my Dremel on the hammers. I didn't use the guide because I felt I had a better feel for what I was doing without it. I just used very light strokes and more of them. The sound is, of course, much improved.

Having that out of the way, I am more convinced now (by fixing some notes) that the backchecks being out of whack is a large part of the cause. Backing of my let-off adjustment and making sure the backcheck is in range solves a lot of the problem. There are still some notes that are kind of lifeless, and I think Gene's idea is most of the rest of the problem.

First off, the balance rail shims are uniformly depraved, and some keys just don't have the travel others do. I think by removing unecessary shims in the front pins, supplying new ones in the balance rail, etc... should do much.

Thanks to everyone for the advice.

Mellowmeyer..I'll give you a step by step method to regulate the action. the main thing with regulating is to do it step by step and not get too involved by how it's playing till all the steps are finished.
1.The first step is to replace all badly worn centre pins and shape the hammers...done on the bench.
2.Put the action back in the piano and caste all hammers so that they are parallel to each other.
3.Align hammers to the strings by loosening the butt screw and moving the hammers so that it hits strings evenly.
4.Adjust the hammer travel by packing the hammer rest rail so that the travel distance is 1 3/4 to 1 7/8 inches
5 Level the white keys with paper shims...here the height can be 3/4inch to 7/8 depending on the piano.
6.level the sharps to sit 1/2 inch above the whites
7.Adjust the let off to 1/8 inch (sometimes known as set off)
8.Set the key depth to 3/8 inch on all of the Bs and Cs by putting in paper shims or removing if not deep enough.
9.On only all of the Bs and Cs bend the back checks so that the hammer blow distance is 1/2 inch and 3/8th depth
10.Put a chalk mark on each of the Bs and Cs back checks then with a straight edge align all of the back checks to the Bs and Cs
11. Pull out all the keys except the Bs and Cs. then put one key at a time starting from the bass and shim up the front balance washers if needed to give a depth of 3/8. giving you...half inch from the string blow distance and 3/8 key depth (use a proper key depth guage is the best way to measure the depth)
12. So now you should have all the back checks in line, 1/2 inch blow distance and 3/8 key depth.
13. Regulate the dampers...I assume this is a American piano so the first thing is to get all the dampers lifting evenly with the pedal. Use the pedal lift of grab the lever with you left hand and with a damper bending tool bend the damper in and out till eventually they all lift as one. (don't forget to bend the dampers left or right to align on the strings)
14.When that job is done the next job the next thing is to get the dampers to lift at the right time. I normally start at the treble end of the dampers and play the note slowly and see if the hammer travels 1/2 to 2/3 thirds of the way to the string before the damper lifts. If you have the action nuts off you can rock the action out and bend the spoon till you get the right damper lift.
15. adjust the pedals.
I know that other tuners will have diffent methods but i have used this metod for 52 years. If the piano still does not play properly then don't spend too much time or money on a lemon. If you want further assistance you can contact mey off line at pianobee@bigpond.com
there you go...easy as that ;-)
Robin Stevens ARPT
South Australia

Oooops!! forgot one step ;-) After step 4 adjust the lost motion by winding up or down the capstain screws so that there is no play between the whippen and the key.
Robin

Hi Robin,

Could you explain what you mean by "caste" in step 4?

Not sure if "caste" is the right spelling but it's the process of heating of the base of the hammer shank (while in the action)with a small gas lighter as per this site http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/287703663/Refillable_Lighter_adjustable_flame_BBQ_kitchen.html
Adjust the flame so it is about the lengh of your small finger nail and while twisting the hammer head left or right apply the flame to the bottom of the shank in a small waving motion which stops it burning the shank. Hold the hammer head in a exagerated position for about 5 seconds and somehow it manages to twist the shank. In the old days we used to heat up tongs on a gas fire and rush over to the piano. then it changed to a small spirit lamp but the lastest BBQ lighters are ideal and can be refilled or replaced. Don't worry about the exagerated twisting of the hammers shank while doing this I have done it on hundreds of pianos and have seen no adverse affects.
Robin

There is rarely any play between key and whippen, it could be stated differently : no play between jack top and butt leather (air play to be precise , which is not really none, but is not much either !

I suggest to try the regulation on a sample of 5 or 6 keys, and test if it works fine. Once you are sure it will work regulate the entire action.

Thanks again for the help everyone.

As a matter of update, I've just been tweaking this and that for the moment. I have some supplies I've ordered such as key shims, back check felts and whatnot. I'm waiting on those to go whole hog on this thing.

In the meantime, I've went about tweaking glaring issues. The high notes (last 1/3 of the harp) were all awful in that they took a good pound to get the note out. The worst of that was key depth (It was only about 1/4 inch). After doing that and adjusting the corresponding affect on the let-off, it's noticeably improved, but not great. The whole piano is like that and the piano's main issue is just the touch at this point.

I did try the process on a few keys and it turned out pretty well, but some still don't sound to a light touch as they should. I will wait and see what happens in the end, but I'm confused as to just what causes that sort of problem..which can probably be one of a hundred different interrelated things. Also, many of the keys feel as if there's nothing to them...like there should be more "firmness" if not weight....or in some cases, even notes that play well soft don't have much feel and not uncontrollably, but rather quickly go up to a ff bright "bong!" with a little more force. I suspect key bushings for part of that problem. I replaced them on one key...a very tedious process indeed, but that's how these things work :-P.

Anyway, still some things to try. On the other hand, I do have a few minor questions for whoever has the info handy...

1. Where can I order those thick felts for the pedal holes?
2. How do you level strings on an upright (if you do)?

<There is rarely any play between key and whippen, it could be stated differently : no play between jack top and butt leather (air play to be precise , which is not really none, but is not much either>
Yes you are correct as you stated. Obviously MellowYellow is going on his own tangent from reading above so I'm out of here.
Robin

You gave a good step by step procedure, but we tend to forget that many Diy dont understand a word of what is evident to us. !
It looks so simple at first sight that they believe they can make it thru with usual logic. and they find themselves lost in the middle of nowhere !
But it is normal, remember your first regulations !

Best wishes !

Yes, at the beginning we don't know exactly what each adjustment does in the playing of the action and how it affects other adjustments.

That is why a beginner must follow the entire sequence in a few sample keys and not focus his attention to particular issues. Because he won't be able to figure out what is the cause.

If he makes the step by step sequence from start to end in a few keys, he surely will avoid many problems and he then can go from a better starting point.

Eh, it seems I'm giving a skewed impression. Robin, I'm not snubbing the process which you generously spelled out. As I said, I'm just waiting on supplies, then I intend to follow the procedure. In the meantime, I'm just occupying myself by fixing obvious problems.

As suggested, I did perform the process on a few keys, and they worked pretty well, but still some not quite like they should. I'm posting updates so the process may be of help to anyone else in a similar position. I'm not someone who thinks I can do it just like an experienced tech, just illustrating the process.

I don't expect that some of the thoughts I had are necessarily answerable because of all the interrelationships, but I'm just mentioning them for good measure. For example, I have the key depth, let-off, hammer blow, etc... all as identical as I can see on the Eb and the Ab above middle C, and the Eb works very well, though the Ab is just slightly lacking in response. I'm suspicious of the jack seating, but I'll wait until I perform the process properly before I look at the real guts of the thing. Anyhoo, I appreciate all the advice, and it will not be wasted.