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#1484837 - 07/30/10 06:54 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: stores]
Mattardo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 1306
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: Mattardo
I'd love to see that autograph, as well.
You sent me links to many of your photographs at one time, Stores - is this among your collection, or do you have some nice photographs of it you can share with us all?

Don't make me make Mark_C beg ha

>:)


Umm, there ISN'T a dminor autograph, Matt. It's not that I don't have it there just isn't one. Reread my post above. So solly.
And by the way the photos you saw were a very small portion of the facsimiles, etc. that I own. I don't have photos of everything (it would take a long time to shoot), but one of these days I'll try to make everything accessible.


Ah, duhhh.... that's what happens when I post at 2 in the morning.

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#1485083 - 07/31/10 08:17 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mattardo]
Victor25 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/30/09
Posts: 1676
Loc: The Netherlands
I have played it the other way now, and it actually makes quite some sense. You can hold the note down without having to use pedal and muddying it up, and its only in the first exposition (measures 21 - 37). You can see the long notes extended with slurs, and its only possible to play that without crossing hands. But the rest of the piece you do cross hands, but you can see that it is written on the second stave then, so again makes perfect sense. This thread has been an enormous help! It also seems more logical now that he uses the b note twice after eachother in measures 31-32 and so on, instead of a continues stream of 3thds. When the other hand picks over it repeats the last note. Beethoven is fascinating.


Edited by Victor25 (07/31/10 09:03 AM)
_________________________
Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)

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#1485143 - 07/31/10 10:28 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: stores]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11940
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: stores

Personally, I can't imagine switching hands with the triplets. It's MUCH easier to crossover and as a result there is no break in the continuity, nor is there any accent (or blip I guess we're calling it?...if that's what you meant). It is, of course, entirely possible that Beethoven MAY have changed hands himself with the triplets seeing that for one he possessed excellent technique and the keys of the Viennese pianoforte had not yet begun to widen quite as much as they would in a few, short years. I also cannot imagine using very much pedal at all in this area, nor would I on an early instrument. The triplets, the rate of speed at which they're played and the register they lie in are all a recipe for mud once you throw in much pedal.


Just a comment here...I'm not one of great technical prowess and yet I had no trouble switching hands on the triplets. I recall starting out trying to use the pedal, but as you say, it turned to mud, and my teacher suggested switching hands. I do not "blip" at this, and so it is not a difficult thing to do. I play the whole note with my LH while the RH continues the triplets for the first beat, then the LH takes them over on beat 2. I don't try to switch immediately at the bar line. I think this makes for a smoother transition, and as I said, it was not that hard to work it up to speed after enough slow practice. I think anyone who is ready to attempt this piece would be capable of this.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#1485147 - 07/31/10 10:34 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Victor25]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11940
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Victor25
It also seems more logical now that he uses the b note twice after eachother in measures 31-32 and so on, instead of a continues stream of 3thds. When the other hand picks over it repeats the last note. Beethoven is fascinating.


Yes, that is a whole different issue at this point, where you have the repeated notes across the bar lines. It is odd that m. 30 he does not have those repeated notes, but m. 31 and on with the same figures transposed up a step he does repeat the notes. However, at this point we do not have tied whole note sin the base and so I do cross over hands here. I change the fingering on the triplets from 5-2 to 1-4 to aid in the repeated note, and the pedaling is not much of an issue due to no longer needing to play a p melody right after while holding down the tied whole notes.

It's odd, though, because when you bring it up to speed, I don't think you can really hear that repeated note. I wonder now if that was an editorial error in m. 30 or if that was intentional to not repeat the notes, and what purpose it served if it were intentional by Beethoven.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#1485167 - 07/31/10 11:15 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Morodiene]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18031
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: Victor25
It also seems more logical now that he uses the b note twice after eachother in measures 31-32 and so on, instead of a continues stream of 3thds. When the other hand picks over it repeats the last note. Beethoven is fascinating.


Yes, that is a whole different issue at this point, where you have the repeated notes across the bar lines. It is odd that m. 30 he does not have those repeated notes, but m. 31 and on with the same figures transposed up a step he does repeat the notes. [...]


The other point to consider is that if the B were not repeated in measure 32 (and the C in measure 34, etc., etc.) and if the triplet were to continue in alternating notes, then on the third beat of each measure you would have an open octave sounding with the upper note in the upper stave. Could it be that Beethoven made this change at this point to avoid the open octave?

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1485172 - 07/31/10 11:31 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: BruceD]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11940
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: BruceD


The other point to consider is that if the B were not repeated in measure 32 (and the C in measure 34, etc., etc.) and if the triplet were to continue in alternating notes, then on the third beat of each measure you would have an open octave sounding with the upper note in the upper stave. Could it be that Beethoven made this change at this point to avoid the open octave?

Regards,


Ah, good point! I see in m. 29 that he doesn't begin with the alternating 4th, but a descending 5th which does not happen in m. 31, thus the triplet pattern is not the same and thus not in danger of the open octave on beat 3 in m. 30, whereas it is as you say in m. 32 a possibility if the pattern is not reversed in the previous measure.

Thanks for pointing that out! Although I do wonder how audible that open octave would be up to tempo, it is a valid point.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#1485188 - 07/31/10 12:05 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Morodiene]
Victor25 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/30/09
Posts: 1676
Loc: The Netherlands
Audible or not, I guess he just wanted to get it right smile. @ Morodiene, from that measure on there is indeed not the tied note, however it is a whole note, and must be held down the whole measure. Something I can only do by switching hands for the triplets. So I switch hands now in measures 21-37 and cross-over in the rest of the sonata (no not the whole sonata haha, would be funny though).
_________________________
Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)

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