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#1481401 - 07/25/10 08:07 PM Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question
jnod Offline
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First movement - bar 21 onward. This is a dumb question I suspect....

In bar 21 the right hand is playing triplets and the left hand is playing half note, quarter note, quarter note. In the next bar, does the left hand take over the triplets?
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#1481410 - 07/25/10 08:44 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: jnod]
missjasper Offline
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I play the triplets with the right hand only. I imagine most pianists do the same, because changing hands there would be troublesome. Watch some performances on youtube.
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#1481462 - 07/25/10 10:24 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: jnod]
Mark_C Offline
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You absolutely keep playing the triplets with the RH.

The "crossing-over" of the LH is an important part of what's going on musically.

And really it's easier to play that way too, although you may have to work on it a bit to realize that.
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#1481471 - 07/25/10 10:39 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
missjasper Offline
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The legato line with the left hand over the right can be tricky for sure, but once you "get it", it physically feels better to play the melody using your left hand. Keep working on it if you're having trouble, you will get it eventually (it isn't so hard as it appears
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#1481505 - 07/25/10 11:29 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: missjasper]
jnod Offline
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Thanks for your input on this - I've tried it both ways and can through it decently (given the short time I've been working at it). But switching hands definately interrupts the flow of the triplets.
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#1481516 - 07/26/10 12:07 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: jnod]
BruceD Offline
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I am not so sure that the solution is as absolute as some may suggest.

Both the Schnabel edition and the Henle (edited Wallner; fingering by Conrad Hansen) do not recommend the continuing triplets to be played with the right hand; both editions clearly change hands for the triplets.

I suspect that one reason for this is that in certain measures (31-32, 33-34, 35-36, for example) the last note of the measure is repeated as the first note of the next measure. For some - perhaps that is why Beethoven has it written this way - the repeated note is easier to execute in time with a change of hand rather than - at that tempo - repeating the note with the same hand.

I read somewhere, although I don't recall where, that it doesn't really matter whether or not you repeat the last/first note or whether you just keep alternating with the notes in question. I am sure that adherents to original scores would find this heretic.

Regards,
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#1481559 - 07/26/10 03:06 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: BruceD]
Mark_C Offline
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re-Edit: Don't pay too much attention to this post. smile

Originally Posted By: BruceD
....Both the Schnabel edition and the Henle (edited Wallner; fingering by Conrad Hansen) do not recommend the continuing triplets to be played with the right hand; both editions clearly change hands for the triplets.....

You're kidding. smile

I mean, I know you're not, but I can't believe it.

I gotta see that.

P.S. Have you ever seen anybody play it that way? I sure haven't -- and that covers dozens of players, of all levels.
Nor have I ever heard or seen anyone raise the possibility.

EDIT: I was able to look at the Schnabel, or at least a version of the Schnabel, on Amazon -- and I'm going to stick my neck out. (Not every measure is shown, but more than enough for me to say this.)

Something is wrong.
I do not believe that Schnabel meant it the way it appears.

Here's why.

Take a look, for example, at these places (and there are others like it).
Counting the measures from the start of the theme in question (i.e. where the triplets begin), not from the beginning of the movement:

First note of measure 11
First note of measure 13
First note of measure 15
etc.

Tell me, Bruce: do you think it's even possible that Schnabel intended the "blip" (often HUGE) that would occur in the left hand if you play it that way?
I do not.

I'm saying that something got lost in the translation between Schnabel and this printed version. Schnabel did not mean it that way.


I think the one and only thing that would convince me otherwise would be if such a "blip" occurs in these places in Schnabel's own playing of the piece.


Edited by Mark_C (07/26/10 12:30 PM)
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#1481569 - 07/26/10 04:08 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: BruceD]
Mark_C Offline
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P.S. Not crucial to the discussion, but as a side note: From the measures that do show up on that Amazon page, it seems that the only thing indicating that the notes are to be played as you said is the fingerings. The first few measures of the triplet section don't show up; I'm wondering if maybe up there it says "m.s." and "m.d." or some such?

The placement of the notes on the treble or bass clef doesn't in itself mean anything. The editions indicating all the triplets to be played by the right hand often (if not always) also divide those notes between the clefs.

I know that Schnabel in general indicated lots of fingerings, and so of course we would usually not have any doubt that fingerings in this edition are his. But I'm guessing strongly that in this case, they aren't. And from what I can see, nothing but the fingerings needs to be doubted.
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#1481594 - 07/26/10 05:36 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
btb Offline
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Hi chaps,

LBs sonata 31-2 ... 1st movement

BruceDs comment caught my eye ... the correct hand to play the trills ... while most would settle for a RH continuity to the trills ... allowing the LH to negotiate the cross-hands Theme ... the Henle Edition apparently prefers the RH to handle the treble motif and the LH the bass

And, there’s a quirk at m31-32 to support the Henle approach
"the last note of the measure is repeated as the first note of the next measure" ...

where the RH easily copes with the jab of extra note ... but, it’s a mute point whether dividing the trills between hands keeps the flow of the trills.

IMHO that extra note could well be omitted ... then, the broad single-note outline of the cross-hands motif can be easily managed by the LH

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#1481624 - 07/26/10 07:26 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: btb]
Mattardo Offline
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Bruce is right - it's possible to switch hands, if you have good timing.
I've been doing it that way ever since I've played the piece. I toyed with doing some hand-crossing, but rejected it for a few small reasons.
It's not for lack of technic - I have no problem with hand-crossing in Beethoven generally.

I just like the accents it seems to add.

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#1481642 - 07/26/10 08:47 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
ChrisKeys Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: BruceD
....Both the Schnabel edition and the Henle (edited Wallner; fingering by Conrad Hansen) do not recommend the continuing triplets to be played with the right hand; both editions clearly change hands for the triplets.....

You're kidding. smile

I mean, I know you're not, but I can't believe it.

I gotta see that.

P.S. Have you ever seen anybody play it that way? I sure haven't -- and that covers dozens of players, of all levels.
Nor have I ever heard or seen anyone raise the possibility.

Well, you've heard of one now. I have always played it that way, and exactly so that I can cover the repeated notes in those few measures. (Though I do keep the triplets in the R.H. in measures 38-40.)
Quote:
EDIT: I was able to look at the Schnabel, or at least a version of the Schnabel, on Amazon -- and I'm going to stick my neck out. (Not every measure is shown, but more than enough for me to say this.)

Something is wrong.
I do not believe that Schnabel meant it the way it appears.

Here's why.

Take a look, for example, at these places (and there are others like it).
Counting the measures from the start of the theme in question (i.e. where the triplets begin), not from the beginning of the movement:

First note of measure 11
First note of measure 13
First note of measure 15
etc.

Tell me, Bruce: do you think it's even possible that Schnabel intended the "blip" (often HUGE) that would occur in the left hand if you play it that way?
I do not.

What blip? I can play it without any micropauses, and I can keep the melody flowing as if played by a single hand. It's really not that hard, and when done correctly it will not be disruptive to the musical flow.

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#1481700 - 07/26/10 10:46 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: ChrisKeys]
Stanza Offline
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The the new Cooper edition also has you changing hands for the triplets. I don't cross until those high A notes in mm 37,38,39.
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#1481703 - 07/26/10 10:54 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
I know that Schnabel in general indicated lots of fingerings, and so of course we would usually not have any doubt that fingerings in this edition are his. But I'm guessing strongly that in this case, they aren't.
So whose fingerings are they?

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#1481707 - 07/26/10 11:01 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mattardo]
Mark_C Offline
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Mattardo -- How do you avoid those "blips" at places like where I indicated?

You said "good timing," but I'm saying it's completely utterly impossible (literally) to avoid a blip (which is bad timing) if you do it that way.
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#1481708 - 07/26/10 11:01 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: ChrisKeys]
Mark_C Offline
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With the leaps?? I can't see it.

But in any event....it's interesting to see that there are people who actually do play it that way and always have.

Meanwhile, I'm standing by what I've said, being aware that I may be about to fall off a cliff.

I'm saying it's not possible to play it that way without a significant "blip" in many places -- i.e. breaking the rhythm for those leaps. If someone wants to demonstrate that it is possible, I'm all ears. smile
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#1481710 - 07/26/10 11:04 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: pianoloverus]
jnod Offline
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I guess this wasn't such a dumb question after all. For the record, I've found it reasonably playable either way and I can see aesthetic reasons for both formats. I agree with Mattardo that switching hands gives you a chance to add a little accent when the left hand takes over. But I also agree with the others who say that it makes more intuitive sense (and maybe is more consistent with precedent in Beethoven, though I'm less sure about this) to keep the triplets in the right hand and cross the left over.

Interesting!
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#1481724 - 07/26/10 11:27 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: BruceD]
Mark_C Offline
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In the name of honesty and fairness..... smile

There are "blips" in Schnabel's recording.
It does sound like he does exactly that.

I still can't believe it. But looks like it is so.



"Blips" occur at 1:00 and 1:02, among other places. They're quite pronounced in those two places; not so bad at 1:04 but still an evident break.

I can't imagine why he'd do it that way, but obviously he had his reasons (need I say). smile
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#1481725 - 07/26/10 11:27 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: jnod]
pianoloverus Online   content
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There are six or seven editions with fingerings marked at IMSLP. All but one indicate switching the triplets to the left hand at bar 21. Add in the Schnabel edition and the other edition specifically mentioned in this thread, it seems like most editions have the triplets changing to the left hand.

Later on in the piece, when there is only single note(not phrase of 6 or 7 notes) played above the triplets, I think some(but not all) of those editions may indicate crossing over with the left hand to play that note.


Edited by pianoloverus (07/26/10 11:38 AM)

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#1481757 - 07/26/10 11:58 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: pianoloverus]
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
[...]
Later on in the piece, when there is only single note(not phrase of 6 or 7 notes) played above the triplets, I think some(but not all) of those editions may indicate crossing over with the left hand to play that note.


I should have mentioned this in my earlier post:

In both the Schabel and Henle editions, following the Allegro at measure 99, the right hand does continue with the triplet figures and the left hand does cross over to play the treble melody.

There must be some reason in both these editions that this particular distinction is so clearly made between the two iterations of this thematic material.

Regards,
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#1481758 - 07/26/10 12:04 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: pianoloverus]
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
I know that Schnabel in general indicated lots of fingerings, and so of course we would usually not have any doubt that fingerings in this edition are his. But I'm guessing strongly that in this case, they aren't.
So whose fingerings are they?


It's very clear, given the Preface by Schnabel, that the fingerings in his edition are indeed his own. He states, in fact (in part):

"The fingerings in this edition may here and there appear somewhat strange. In explanation of the more unusual kinds let it be said that the selection was not made exclusively with a view to technical facility, but rather from the desire to secure - at least approximately - the correct musical expression of the passages in question (as the Editor feels they should be interpreted).

[...] The fingerings and pedal indication s are almost without exception by the Editor; the original texts, especially those of earlier works, contain next to none."

It would seem to me, then, in light of this last statement, that there can be no doubt that the fingerings in the Schnabel edition are Schnabel's.

Regards,
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#1481780 - 07/26/10 12:26 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: BruceD]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: BruceD
I should have mentioned this in my earlier post:

In both the Schabel and Henle editions, following the Allegro at measure 99, the right hand does continue with the triplet figures and the left hand does cross over to play the treble melody.

There must be some reason in both these editions that this particular distinction is so clearly made between the two iterations of this thematic material.

Such as? smile

This is yet another aspect that leaves me wondering what the heck is going on with that.
I cannot understand why someone like Schnabel (nor anyone) would think of 'breaking' the triplets.
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#1481787 - 07/26/10 12:29 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: BruceD]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: BruceD
....Preface by Schnabel....

"The fingerings in this edition may here and there appear somewhat strange. In explanation of the more unusual kinds let it be said that the selection was not made exclusively with a view to technical facility, but rather from the desire to secure - at least approximately - the correct musical expression of the passages in question (as the Editor feels they should be interpreted).....

Yes.
In this case, that would mean (wouldn't it?) that he WANTED those "blips"!!!

If I really try smile I can imagine why someone might.
But it's not easy to imagine.
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#1481790 - 07/26/10 12:32 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
BruceD Offline
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Well, I don't know the reason, but don't you assume there must be one to make the distinction in the execution between such otherwise similar sections.

The only reason I can think for doing this is for the greater ease (ease? huh?) of the execution of that last note/first note repetition.

I do wish I could remember what one of my (brief summer school) teachers said about the execution of these passages, but we only looked at the first movement briefly and whatever comments may have been made at that time have faded from my already feeble memory.

Regards,
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#1481824 - 07/26/10 01:24 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: BruceD]
BruceD Offline
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By the way, I tried playing through the measures in question "as written" where the triplets shift from right to left hand. I wouldn't anticipate any difficulties playing it this way at tempo. Someone with a more advanced and a more refined technique than mine should find it relatively easy to play these measures as written. The left hand ascending quarter-notes are staccato which gives one plenty of time to prepare the "shift," it seems to me.

Regards,
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#1481833 - 07/26/10 01:39 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: BruceD]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: BruceD
.....The left hand ascending quarter-notes are staccato which gives one plenty of time to prepare the "shift," it seems to me.

Are you looking at places like the specific ones I mentioned? They give no time for the shift.
Look at where the L.H. is right before the "shift."

BTW, to clarify: I'm not saying that those places are the reason not to divide the triplets between the hands; I'm saying that these spots "prove" that this wasn't the intention, because it's impossible to play those places without a "break."

Which it is.

Of course, "break" might be in the ear of the beholder. Plus it seems (emphasis on seems) that Schnabel really WANTED the "break"!
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#1481882 - 07/26/10 03:27 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
[...]
Take a look, for example, at these places (and there are others like it).
Counting the measures from the start of the theme in question (i.e. where the triplets begin), not from the beginning of the movement:

First note of measure 11
First note of measure 13
First note of measure 15
etc.

Tell me, Bruce: do you think it's even possible that Schnabel intended the "blip" (often HUGE) that would occur in the left hand if you play it that way?
I do not.

I'm saying that something got lost in the translation between Schnabel and this printed version. Schnabel did not mean it that way.[/i]

I think the one and only thing that would convince me otherwise would be if such a "blip" occurs in these places in Schnabel's own playing of the piece.


I see the measures you mention where the left hand, when played as written, has to jump down a twelfth. Although it's not really a twelfth, is it, when you consider that the last note in the measure is played with the thumb and the first note in the next is played with 5; finger 5 has to jump a ninth. I don't think that those jumps are any more treacherous or any more impossible than that from the first to the second beat of measure 62 (left hand) and that from the first to the second beat in measure 63 (also left hand).

Regards,
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#1481903 - 07/26/10 04:12 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
Mattardo Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Mattardo -- How do you avoid those "blips" at places like where I indicated?

You said "good timing," but I'm saying it's completely utterly impossible (literally) to avoid a blip (which is bad timing) if you do it that way.


I really don't get any blips.... my hands are large enough where it's really not that much of a jump.
Each switch-of-the-hands comes on what I perceive as a rhythmic accent. I wouldn't want the pasage to be entirely smooth on the accents, anyways. I'm sorry - I'm not sure I'm explaining it well.

There is a jump, and it does involve a bit of speed to get it right, but it's really not that bad if you're able to play other things in Beethoven that require quick jumps, and you're using some sensible fingering when you approach the hand-crossing - I usually alter my fingering on the triplets at that point. Any 'blip' should really not be heard, if you're accenting the ryhthms properly and able to make the jump comfortably, in my opinion.

It might be an issue of hand-size - I'm not sure. Or getting used to a new concept.

I'll have to listen to the Schnabel and see if I can hear these blips.

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#1481909 - 07/26/10 04:20 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mattardo]
Mattardo Offline
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After playing it again, if measure 27 is giving trouble in the trasition, it's possible to play the 2nd half of the triplets, along with the half-note A entirely with the right hand - making the transition easier.

It seems that the downward jump is the one giving some people issues?

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#1481918 - 07/26/10 04:36 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mattardo]
jnod Offline
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I (an somewhat advanced but decidedly amateur pianist) found the two ways of playing through the triplets more or less equivalent in terms of difficulty.
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#1481949 - 07/26/10 05:54 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: jnod]
Mattardo Offline
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Yes, it's not difficult at all with some effort.
For those worried about breaking the triplets, it's not breaking them, really: it's the equivalent playing a melodic line if it goes from right hand to left hand, or vice versa. Nobody would claim that switching hands, ala Melody in F, is breaking up the melodic line. That's not the only example, but probably the most famous where it consistently happens and is used to teach the skill for many people.

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#1482039 - 07/26/10 08:40 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mattardo]
pianoloverus Online   content
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The OP's question was specifically about the music starting in bar 21. Maybe some posters have started discussing other places?

Three posters, myself among them, have already mentioned around 8 different fingered editions, and in all but one of those editions the fingering indicates changing hands from right to left for the triplets.

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#1482063 - 07/26/10 09:26 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: pianoloverus]
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I don't see how you avoid switching hands if you want to hold the notes in the bass clef for 3 bars. I suppose you could play that with the right hand but it leaves you with a somewhat more uncomfortable negotiation at the end of each phrase.
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#1482065 - 07/26/10 09:30 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: pianoloverus]
Mattardo Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
The OP's question was specifically about the music starting in bar 21. Maybe some posters have started discussing other places?

Three posters, myself among them, have already mentioned around 8 different fingered editions, and in all but one of those editions the fingering indicates changing hands from right to left for the triplets.


I think we're discussing the same passages the OP is asking about.
I haven't seen anyone veering away from that question.

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#1482120 - 07/26/10 10:31 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: BruceD]
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Originally Posted By: BruceD
.....I don't think that those jumps are any more treacherous or any more impossible than that from the first to the second beat of measure 62 (left hand) and that from the first to the second beat in measure 63 (also left hand).

Bruce -- either we're misunderstanding what each other is talking about, or we just have drastically different ideas about these passages. Assuming I'm counting the measures right (and I'm assuming you're counting from the beginning of the movement), those notes you're talking about are QUARTER NOTES, and the ones I'm talking about are triplets -- i.e. 3 times as quick. How are they comparable? Leaping between those quarter notes is essentially no issue at all.
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#1482126 - 07/26/10 10:35 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mattardo]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mattardo
It might be an issue of hand-size - I'm not sure. Or getting used to a new concept....

I don't think either of those is the issue for me -- just seeing the passage differently, and maybe having a lower threshold for calling something a "blip."
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#1482131 - 07/26/10 10:41 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Damon]
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Originally Posted By: Damon
I don't see how you avoid switching hands if you want to hold the notes in the bass clef for 3 bars....

Good point -- but there's a good answer. smile

The pedal holds the note.

This is one of those things where there's an issue about the way the piano has changed since Beethoven's time. On his pianos, I'm pretty sure this would be no issue at all: Put your foot on the pedal, and leave it there through those measures, no sweat. The sound of each note "decays" rapidly enough that the dissonance from the non-harmonic notes won't bother anybody. But on the modern piano......well, it's still not hard to make it OK (there are lots of places in Beethoven that are harder in this respect), but you have to be a bit sensitive about the sound and the degree of pedaling.

The pedal holds the note.
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#1482193 - 07/27/10 12:18 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
I don't see how you avoid switching hands if you want to hold the notes in the bass clef for 3 bars....

Good point -- but there's a good answer. smile

The pedal holds the note.


For 3 bars? I'm not sure that's a sound I would pursue when the alternative isn't that hard.

Originally Posted By: Mark_C

The pedal holds the note.


I saw it the first time.
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#1482217 - 07/27/10 01:28 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: BruceD
.....I don't think that those jumps are any more treacherous or any more impossible than that from the first to the second beat of measure 62 (left hand) and that from the first to the second beat in measure 63 (also left hand).

Bruce -- either we're misunderstanding what each other is talking about, or we just have drastically different ideas about these passages. Assuming I'm counting the measures right (and I'm assuming you're counting from the beginning of the movement), those notes you're talking about are QUARTER NOTES, and the ones I'm talking about are triplets -- i.e. 3 times as quick. How are they comparable? Leaping between those quarter notes is essentially no issue at all.


If we are talking about the same measures (I prefer to use the numbered measures that start from the beginning to be sure) and if you read closely what I wrote, I think we are talking about the same notes.

Yes, the first post I made in this connection was about the left hand quarter notes, but when you pointed to specific spots in the score, I went to those measures and, yes, I was talking about the triplets.

So: to clarify :

The last triplet left hand note in measure 30 is a D (above middle C) and the first left hand note in measure 31 is a G-sharp. But the D is played with the thumb and the lower G-sharp is played with 5, so the jump is not excessive. It's not as if you have to jump from the D to the G-sharp with the same finger but rather with fingers on the opposite side of the hand, 1 and 5, making the jump less expansive that it sounds if you simply say D4 to G-sharp2.

The last triplet left hand not in measure 32 is E above middle C and the first left hand note in measure 33 is an A. but the E is played with the thumb and the A is played with 5, so the jump is not that great; at least they are not any greater than many jumps in Beethoven.

Is this not what we are talking about? If it isn't, what are we talking about?

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#1482218 - 07/27/10 01:35 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Damon]
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Originally Posted By: Damon
I saw it the first time.

Right -- but meanwhile it seems you missed everything in between. smile
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#1482219 - 07/27/10 01:39 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: BruceD]
Mark_C Offline
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Sorry, but I'm lost.

Let's talk. smile

That post of yours was a reply to a post of mine, in which I referred to measures you had talked about in your previous post.

(I hope I haven't just lost you too.) smile

I mentioned that the places you referred to in that previous post weren't anything like the places I had talked about. I didn't understand how you could have felt there was any comparison.

So now, in this most recent post, presumably replying to what I had just said and explaining what you were thinking in that previous post, you talk about different measures than in that previous post.

Which leaves me at a loss.
Maybe we're trying too hard..... smile
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#1482312 - 07/27/10 08:10 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
I saw it the first time.

Right -- but meanwhile it seems you missed everything in between. smile


I didn't miss anything in between, I just didn't quote it. I thought my opinion was clear that the difficulty of switching hands was no harder than managing the phrase properly when crossing over instead. If you like the sound of 3 bars with the pedal down (or letting the note die ahead of schedule), fine. It doesn't matter if Beethoven's crappy piano was incapable of sustaining a note 3 bars, we know he clearly wanted it to.
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#1482314 - 07/27/10 08:19 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C

Which leaves me at a loss.
Maybe we're trying too hard..... smile


Do you have a frog in your pocket or do you have dissociative identity disorder? Or maybe you misunderstand the meaning of the word "we"? grin
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#1482325 - 07/27/10 08:35 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Damon]
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Anyone know what Tovey says on the subject? My edition is in storage at the moment.

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#1482376 - 07/27/10 10:22 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: jnod]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: jnod
First movement - bar 21 onward. This is a dumb question I suspect....

In bar 21 the right hand is playing triplets and the left hand is playing half note, quarter note, quarter note. In the next bar, does the left hand take over the triplets?


I have only read through some of the responses here, so forgive me if I throw in my $0.02.

In m. 21, which is where the triplets first appear in the piece, I play them with the RH, then in m. 22, I play them with the LH and play the melody in the RH. I do this because I find it easier to keep the continuity of the LH arpeggio melody and contrast it with the RH p melody. In m. 30, however, I continue playing the triplets in the RH and play the treble D in the LH, as that is continuation of the LH arpeggio melody - almost like an echo of that.

And as far as the issue in m.31-32 with the triplets changing gears, I woudl change the fingering in the RH to accommodate that, but really when you play it up to tempo it's hardly noticeable. Still, I make the effort to play it as written, rather than just continue the triplets in the pattern.

*edited to add: I didn't mention that I switch to the LH in m. 22 on the 2nd beat, not at the bar line.

I never noticed the difference between that and m. 99 however, where it's clearly marked the the LH should take the melody. Of course, in m. 99 I played it as my edition has it (Schenker edition). Playing the m. 22 as I did, however, didn't present too many problems for me, nor was it much of an issue at m. 99 the other way.

My only guess as to why it would be differently notated in m. 22 is that there is a fingering and pedaling issue. In m.21-21, the LH figure is an arpeggio ending on a tied whole note which should be held through m. 24. If you are keeping the triplets in the RH and going up to play the p melody in the LH, then the only way to hold down the whole note is to play the last note of the arpeggio figure with the RH as well, which means then doing the triplets not with fingers 1-3 and 2-4 alternatively to keep them from building up tension, you must do them only with 2-4 or try and do 3-5, which is much much harder, IMO. However, in m. 99 there is no tied whole note, it is a staccato quarter, clearly not intended to be held and thus frees up the RH to continue playing the triplets.

For the pedaling issue, if one tries to play the tied whole note in m. 22 with the LH and then go up to play the RH melody, you'd have those triplet sin your pedal and a f and thus would not be able to play it p on beat 4. Lifting the pedal woudl clear out the tied whole note, so that is not an option.


Edited by Morodiene (07/27/10 10:43 AM)
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#1482382 - 07/27/10 10:39 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Sorry, but I'm lost.

Let's talk. smile

That post of yours was a reply to a post of mine, in which I referred to measures you had talked about in your previous post.

(I hope I haven't just lost you too.) smile

I mentioned that the places you referred to in that previous post weren't anything like the places I had talked about. I didn't understand how you could have felt there was any comparison.

So now, in this most recent post, presumably replying to what I had just said and explaining what you were thinking in that previous post, you talk about different measures than in that previous post.

Which leaves me at a loss.
Maybe we're trying too hard..... smile


Yes, in one of my earlier posts, I was referring to the quarter note themes in the left hand. However, since you said this wasn't "the problem" but that "the problem" involved the triplet figures from right hand to left hand, I saw that we were referring to different problems, and I then tried to accommodate what you were referring to and tried to respond to you by referring to the jumps in the triplet figures.

So, yes, I talked about different measures in my subsequent post because you were talking about different measures than I was, and I was trying to respond to what you were referring to.

I did the best I could by quoting measure numbers as they appear in my score. If that doesn't communicate, let's just forget it. I can't put forth any more effort because I don't see how I can be any clearer than I was by quoting both precise measure numbers and exact notes.

Let's just forget it.
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#1482409 - 07/27/10 11:23 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: BruceD]
jnod Offline
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Hello Everyone. This has all been very helpful in that I suspect I have licence to play this movement in the way that works best for me. This involves switching the hand that does the triplets by the way - I don't like the idea of holding the whole note with the pedal personally althought perhaps some of you do.

But hey - what's all this squabbling about? Seems silly! We're discussing music here! Surely none of us are morons!
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#1482431 - 07/27/10 12:00 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: jnod]
Mattardo Offline
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Originally Posted By: jnod
Hello Everyone. This has all been very helpful in that I suspect I have licence to play this movement in the way that works best for me. This involves switching the hand that does the triplets by the way - I don't like the idea of holding the whole note with the pedal personally althought perhaps some of you do.

But hey - what's all this squabbling about? Seems silly! We're discussing music here! Surely none of us are morons!


Oh, you know how some people like to be pedantic when they're bored and have nothing else to say.
It's just a sign that we need to spend more time playing the piano, less time hitting that 'reply' button, I suppose. I'm not claiming to be innocent, at times.

And yes - fortunately, there is no law that forces you to play a passage a certain way, if you can achieve similar or better results another way. Some people may try to make you do so, but that's okay, too. In the end - it's you that is playing the music, and you who must ultimately decide if you made the right decision.

I've always thought this section of the sonata was extremely fun because of the hand-switching - really gives it some energy to go along with the music. And if I'm thinking of the same note you are - you can hold that with the left hand, without pedal, and use the right hand to perform the triplets, and the upper voicing. Again, it's not that difficult - it just LOOKS like it should be played a certain way at first glance.


Edited by Mattardo (07/27/10 12:02 PM)

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#1482444 - 07/27/10 12:20 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Damon
.....It doesn't matter if Beethoven's crappy piano was incapable of sustaining a note 3 bars, we know he clearly wanted it to.

I can't tell if that's mainly serious or just rhetorical.

Sure he wanted it to -- and, his piano wasn't 'incapable' of sustaining the note; it just sustained it more lightly.

If you don't want to give this much credence, I wonder how you can give proper due to things like the pedal markings in the main theme of the last movement of the Waldstein.

(Which, come to think of it, is pretty close to this in all the considerations, including the hand crossing.)
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#1482449 - 07/27/10 12:27 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: BruceD]
Mark_C Offline
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Yes.
The fact that you had compared the "blips" I had talked about with leaps between quarter notes made me feel that you had just misunderstood what I'd been talking about from the start. I don't mean it's your fault, just that it felt like some of this had been a waste for us both.

However, I was glad to learn (better to know than not to know) smile that there's such a large view in favor of playing the movement in a way that I had thought was just misguided. (This included my checking on youtube to see if people actually play it that way -- and I see that they do.)
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#1482615 - 07/27/10 05:29 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
Mattardo Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
.....It doesn't matter if Beethoven's crappy piano was incapable of sustaining a note 3 bars, we know he clearly wanted it to.

I can't tell if that's mainly serious or just rhetorical.

Sure he wanted it to -- and, his piano wasn't 'incapable' of sustaining the note; it just sustained it more lightly.

If you don't want to give this much credence, I wonder how you can give proper due to things like the pedal markings in the main theme of the last movement of the Waldstein.

(Which, come to think of it, is pretty close to this in all the considerations, including the hand crossing.)


Out of curiosity, Mark, are you suggesting that we use the sustain pedal on the bass notes in these passages because the possibility exists because they are 'pedal notes'?
Correct me if I'm wrong - but Damon is suggesting that the sustain pedal is not necesarry in these passages, and you're suggesting that it should be/or could be used, possibly to overcome the technical difficulties.

Is that the problem here?
The last movement pedal markings, you refer to, are there to get a certain effect - the sustain pedal is to be used specifically, as indicated by Beethoven. The passages starting in measure 21 of the 1st movement, however, are not specifically marked to be pedalled. They could be pedalled, of course, but they are not specifically marked as such. I think these are 2 wildly varying and opposed examples.

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#1482788 - 07/27/10 09:44 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mattardo]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mattardo
Out of curiosity, Mark, are you suggesting that we use the sustain pedal on the bass notes in these passages because the possibility exists because they are 'pedal notes'?
Correct me if I'm wrong - but Damon is suggesting that the sustain pedal is not necessary in these passages, and you're suggesting that it should be/or could be used, possibly to overcome the technical difficulties.....
The last movement pedal markings, you refer to, are there to get a certain effect - the sustain pedal is to be used specifically, as indicated by Beethoven. The passages starting in measure 21 of the 1st movement, however, are not specifically marked to be pedaled. They could be pedalled, of course, but they are not specifically marked as such. I think these are 2 wildly varying and opposed examples.

My view has nothing whatsoever to do with 'overcoming technical difficulties.' I think the pedaling is an inherent part of the passage -- musically, and "to get a certain effect" as you said about the Waldstein.

That's a good point (of course) about the pedaling not being marked in this passage of the Tempest. Obviously I'd have an easier time with my argument if Beethoven did put in a pedal marking. smile

Regarding the initial question about switching hands in the middle of the triplets, I hadn't thought of the pedaling aspect of this passage (nor of the central importance of those long/tied notes in the L.H.) until Damon talked about them. And then I had to wonder if maybe that's how the whole thing about "switching hands in the triplets" came about: to be able to sustain that note without help from the pedal.

Using pedal for such passages (whether marked or not) doesn't faze me at all, maybe because I've been heavily influenced by the "original instruments" view of these pieces. It's so second-nature to me that I usually don't realize that this influence is involved. If I had realized it, I would have known immediately that this could be a reason for people wanting to switch hands in the middle of the triplets (i.e. not realizing or not caring that on Beethoven's pianos, pedaling the passage would have been no sweat). But if you know those instruments -- and if you believe they give a window into Beethoven's thinking, which I think they do -- I don't think it would ever occur to you to avoid pedal or to switch hands.

Nevertheless, there's something that would blow me completely out of the water (again): smile
If we see that even people playing the piece on "original instruments" switch hands and avoid pedaling through the passage.

I'm going to find out what my old mentor will say, and what he does.
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#1482882 - 07/27/10 11:41 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
Mattardo Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Mattardo
Out of curiosity, Mark, are you suggesting that we use the sustain pedal on the bass notes in these passages because the possibility exists because they are 'pedal notes'?
Correct me if I'm wrong - but Damon is suggesting that the sustain pedal is not necessary in these passages, and you're suggesting that it should be/or could be used, possibly to overcome the technical difficulties.....
The last movement pedal markings, you refer to, are there to get a certain effect - the sustain pedal is to be used specifically, as indicated by Beethoven. The passages starting in measure 21 of the 1st movement, however, are not specifically marked to be pedaled. They could be pedalled, of course, but they are not specifically marked as such. I think these are 2 wildly varying and opposed examples.

My view has nothing whatsoever to do with 'overcoming technical difficulties.' I think the pedaling is an inherent part of the passage -- musically, and "to get a certain effect" as you said about the Waldstein.

That's a good point (of course) about the pedaling not being marked in this passage of the Tempest. Obviously I'd have an easier time with my argument if Beethoven did put in a pedal marking. smile

Regarding the initial question about switching hands in the middle of the triplets, I hadn't thought of the pedaling aspect of this passage (nor of the central importance of those long/tied notes in the L.H.) until Damon talked about them. And then I had to wonder if maybe that's how the whole thing about "switching hands in the triplets" came about: to be able to sustain that note without help from the pedal.

Using pedal for such passages (whether marked or not) doesn't faze me at all, maybe because I've been heavily influenced by the "original instruments" view of these pieces. It's so second-nature to me that I usually don't realize that this influence is involved. If I had realized it, I would have known immediately that this could be a reason for people wanting to switch hands in the middle of the triplets (i.e. not realizing or not caring that on Beethoven's pianos, pedaling the passage would have been no sweat). But if you know those instruments -- and if you believe they give a window into Beethoven's thinking, which I think they do -- I don't think it would ever occur to you to avoid pedal or to switch hands.

Nevertheless, there's something that would blow me completely out of the water (again): smile
If we see that even people playing the piece on "original instruments" switch hands and avoid pedaling through the passage.

I'm going to find out what my old mentor will say, and what he does.


Oh bother - I had a lengthy post written out, and I hit the back button. I guess everyone is spared lol.

I agree that a piano-forte reveals much of Beethoven - I play on them as often as I can, and when I can't I use pc samples of them piped to my clavinova. The pedal is definately not as obnoxious as modern pianos, but I think many people misunderstand Beethoven's use of the pedal.

He seems to have been more concerned about changing the contrast, timbre, tone in his use of the pedal - look at the explicit instances he calls for it, virtually none are used for sustaining. More of a blurring, atmospheric effect is achieved, and sometimes a loud effect. From eyewitness accounts, we can tell that Beethoven used the pedal much more than he indicates, but I don't think it was for sustaining purposes mainly - anyone who played Bach as religiously as he did, and the organ as a teen, would have been quite capable of sustaining most bass notes and other passages in his sonatas. His technique could handle it.

Judging from some of his strange alberti-bass type passages which entail an octave, and then thirds - it seems he was quite comfortable with awkward passages. Just the sort of passage in the Tempest, where I mention it's possible to hold the bass, while using the right hand for the triplets and upper voice. I personally think holding the bass notes throughout the entire passage is essential, and doesn't require a pedal. With a piano-forte, a pedal might sound a bit too muddied, even on the older instrument. I like precision in these measures. I hear lots of performances with too much pedal in this Sonata - maybe it's a personal preference of mine.

I would love to see some professional piano-forte players recorded on this in video - I like your idea! Speaking of triplet-switchers, here's at least one on a modern piano:
Ory Shihor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3N58G9DRaA

I wish one of my customers were in town and not up north - I'd gladly record this for you! That's what happens when you live in Florida - half the population is gone half the time. smile

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#1483049 - 07/28/10 09:09 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mattardo]
Morodiene Offline
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This is just a side question, but aren't period pianos called fortepianos?

I think the problem with trying to accommodate what Beethoven might have wanted given the instruments he had to work with on a modern instrument is somewhat an impossible task. We really don't know, and can only make guesses, no matter how educated they might be. Personally, I do not try and make a modern instrument sound like a period one. If I'm playing on a period instrument, then I would certainly make adjustments to get the sound that I feel musically makes the most sense to me. This is no different than on a modern piano.

In the end, everyone's answer on this issue comes down to the individual and their own musical senses. I think this was a very valuable discussion, however, because it helped me to define what I do and why. I did it instinctively without much thought, but now I can explain that to students and let them decide which route they'd like to take with that understanding.
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#1483203 - 07/28/10 01:37 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Morodiene]
Mattardo Offline
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Good! We have a happy ending in a thread, for once! smile

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#1483220 - 07/28/10 02:02 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Morodiene]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene
This is just a side question, but aren't period pianos called fortepianos?....

(yes)

Quote:
I think the problem with trying to accommodate what Beethoven might have wanted given the instruments he had to work with on a modern instrument is somewhat an impossible task.....

That gets said a lot, and it drives those of us who view it the other way a little bit nuts.

Because.....the point is that this isn't just a thing of how the passage "sounds" (which your view seems to be based on); it's a thing of what Beethoven was thinking, what he meant, what he had in mind. That's a more basic thing. How it sounds comes next. Sometimes one might decide to do something different from what a composer meant, but we want to know that when we do it.

Taking it back to the initial question: I'm saying that I don't think it ever entered Beethoven's mind to switch hands in the middle of the triplets, because there was no need, not to mention that it causes sacrifices in the rhythm.

If you want to say that the modern piano requires a different approach because the pedaling doesn't work, fine -- but realize that it may be something completely different than what he was thinking -- and unnecessarily, because you can do it on the modern piano with the pedal. It just takes a little extra attention and sensitivity, but not hugely; it's not one of the more difficult such places in Beethoven.

P.S. I don't get how switching hands helps you with the continuity of the melody or how it helps you with the contrast when the melody moves upward. For me, it would make those things harder, and in any event, I'm surprised that you'd have any trouble achieving those things with the hand-crossing. Are you sure it isn't just that your edition had it that way, and so you're used to it?
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#1483236 - 07/28/10 02:31 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
...the point is that this isn't just a thing of how the passage "sounds" (which your view seems to be based on); it's a thing of what Beethoven was thinking, what he meant, what he had in mind. That's a more basic thing. How it sounds comes next.


This distinction between how a passage sounds vs. what the composer meant, (or, I'm tempted to say, vs. what the passage is), is an interesting distinction. And its validity probably depends on the composer. With Bach and Beethoven there seems like a big difference between these two ideas, particularly since Beethoven was deaf. With Debussy or Ravel, I think there's much less of a distinction.

(This gets to a difference between two kinds of composition that I've been trying to articulate for a while: those compositions whose essence is captured by a sequence of written notes vs. those compositions whose essence is the produced sounds themselves. Bach and Brian Eno are good examples of the two types.)

-Jason
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#1483240 - 07/28/10 02:34 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Are you sure it isn't just that your edition had it that way, and so you're used to it?
Fifty posts ago I pointed out that almost every edition at IMSLP has it "that way",i.e., most editors think (for whatever reason) not crossing hands is a better way to play it. Then other people said their editions(not on IMSLP) also had it "that way". I think if an editor spend as much time obsessing over some thing like this as you seem to have done, they'd never finish editing more than one sonata.

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#1483245 - 07/28/10 02:39 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: pianoloverus]
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Are you sure it isn't just that your edition had it that way, and so you're used to it?
Fifty posts ago I pointed out that almost every edition at IMSLP has it "that way",i.e., most editors think (for whatever reason) not crossing hands is a better way to play it. Then other people said their editions(not on IMSLP) also had it "that way". I think if an editor spend as much time obsessing over some thing like this as you seem to have done, they'd never finish editing more than one sonata.


Lol - that's why the good folks at the Piano Forums are here to obsess over it for them.

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#1483246 - 07/28/10 02:41 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
Mattardo Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
This is just a side question, but aren't period pianos called fortepianos?....

(yes)

Quote:
I think the problem with trying to accommodate what Beethoven might have wanted given the instruments he had to work with on a modern instrument is somewhat an impossible task.....

That gets said a lot, and it drives those of us who view it the other way a little bit nuts.

Because.....the point is that this isn't just a thing of how the passage "sounds" (which your view seems to be based on); it's a thing of what Beethoven was thinking, what he meant, what he had in mind. That's a more basic thing. How it sounds comes next. Sometimes one might decide to do something different from what a composer meant, but we want to know that when we do it.

Taking it back to the initial question: I'm saying that I don't think it ever entered Beethoven's mind to switch hands in the middle of the triplets, because there was no need, not to mention that it causes sacrifices in the rhythm.

If you want to say that the modern piano requires a different approach because the pedaling doesn't work, fine -- but realize that it may be something completely different than what he was thinking -- and unnecessarily, because you can do it on the modern piano with the pedal. It just takes a little extra attention and sensitivity, but not hugely; it's not one of the more difficult such places in Beethoven.

P.S. I don't get how switching hands helps you with the continuity of the melody or how it helps you with the contrast when the melody moves upward. For me, it would make those things harder, and in any event, I'm surprised that you'd have any trouble achieving those things with the hand-crossing. Are you sure it isn't just that your edition had it that way, and so you're used to it?


Do you think the staccato marks were meant to be wedges in this instance? An editorial booboo?

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#1483274 - 07/28/10 03:36 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
[...]
Taking it back to the initial question: I'm saying that I don't think it ever entered Beethoven's mind to switch hands in the middle of the triplets, because there was no need, not to mention that it causes sacrifices in the rhythm.
[...]


If you are so convinced of that, then how do you explain why Beethoven wrote the score the way he did? Why did he not indicate crossed hands as he does later (in Urtext editions: measures 105 and ff.) That the two sections are written so differently surely has some significance.

It seems to me that your argument doesn't hold up against the (Urtext) score.

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#1483302 - 07/28/10 04:14 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C

Originally Posted By: Morodiene
I think the problem with trying to accommodate what Beethoven might have wanted given the instruments he had to work with on a modern instrument is somewhat an impossible task.....

That gets said a lot, and it drives those of us who view it the other way a little bit nuts.

Because.....the point is that this isn't just a thing of how the passage "sounds" (which your view seems to be based on); it's a thing of what Beethoven was thinking, what he meant, what he had in mind. That's a more basic thing. How it sounds comes next. Sometimes one might decide to do something different from what a composer meant, but we want to know that when we do it.

I agree wholeheartedly...if I were playing on a period instrument. I'm not and my piano cannot do the same things as his did. Therefore, regardless of what Beethoven was thinking (and you can only go based on what we have in original scores, what he may have written himself or said, or eye-witness accounts of him performing it), it is only an educated guess as to what you can do with your instrument. I can try to make my modern concert grand sound like a period instrument, but that is something that I personally don't agree with doing. I can completely understand those (and you may be one of them) who try to do this, but I am of the opinion that Beethoven also intended for other musicians to play his music, and whenever a composer allows that, you must expect individual interpretations, even ones you may not like.

Quote:
Taking it back to the initial question: I'm saying that I don't think it ever entered Beethoven's mind to switch hands in the middle of the triplets, because there was no need, not to mention that it causes sacrifices in the rhythm.
that is still only an educated guess, as is my opinion on the subject. smile

Quote:
If you want to say that the modern piano requires a different approach because the pedaling doesn't work, fine -- but realize that it may be something completely different than what he was thinking -- and unnecessarily, because you can do it on the modern piano with the pedal. It just takes a little extra attention and sensitivity, but not hugely; it's not one of the more difficult such places in Beethoven.
Have you done this? I would very much like to hear it done. I'm not tied to one way or the other - whatever helps me to play it well is all that I'm concerned about here.

Quote:
P.S. I don't get how switching hands helps you with the continuity of the melody or how it helps you with the contrast when the melody moves upward. For me, it would make those things harder, and in any event, I'm surprised that you'd have any trouble achieving those things with the hand-crossing. Are you sure it isn't just that your edition had it that way, and so you're used to it?
Actually, my edition keeps the stems up from m. 21 through m. 22. The switching is something that my teacher recommended to me after I struggled with the pedaling/fingering/tied note issue.
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#1483310 - 07/28/10 04:21 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: BruceD]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
[...]
Taking it back to the initial question: I'm saying that I don't think it ever entered Beethoven's mind to switch hands in the middle of the triplets, because there was no need, not to mention that it causes sacrifices in the rhythm.
[...]


If you are so convinced of that, then how do you explain why Beethoven wrote the score the way he did? Why did he not indicate crossed hands as he does later (in Urtext editions: measures 105 and ff.) That the two sections are written so differently surely has some significance.

It seems to me that your argument doesn't hold up against the (Urtext) score.

Regards,


I have to agree here. Also, my score only has Beethoven's pedal marks in them (no editorial ones), and there are no pedal marks for m. 21-22 in question, nor in m. 99 etc. So, how would one hold down those whole notes without a pedal? Either he only indicated pedal for expressive purposes (most likely) and assumed the performer would be able to figure out sustaining issues based on how the individual instrument responded, or he didn't want pedaling at all in this section. How does one know which it is?
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#1483343 - 07/28/10 05:20 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Morodiene]
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It's a bit counter-productive to assume that classical-era pianists used that pedal for anything other than special effects - the habit of using it to sustain, in place of fingers, was a later practice. If any sustaining was done - it was an intentional blurring of tones, a dreamy effect.

So Beethoven would not have expected this passage to have pedal applied to it for sustaining.
Judging from examples in the rest of his scores, if he had wanted the special 'senza sordini' effect here - he would have specified it. He was very picky at times.

As far as I can judge - the idea of using the pedal in this passage shouldn't even be considered, especially with a view to how it would be performed on a period instrument. It's prety plain how it should be performed, I think - only an insistence on crossing the hands between bass and treble will produce a desire to use tbe pedal. It just seems counter-intuitive.

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#1483358 - 07/28/10 05:49 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mattardo]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mattardo
It's a bit counter-productive to assume that classical-era pianists used that pedal for anything other than special effects - the habit of using it to sustain, in place of fingers, was a later practice. If any sustaining was done - it was an intentional blurring of tones, a dreamy effect.

So Beethoven would not have expected this passage to have pedal applied to it for sustaining.
Judging from examples in the rest of his scores, if he had wanted the special 'senza sordini' effect here - he would have specified it. He was very picky at times.

As far as I can judge - the idea of using the pedal in this passage shouldn't even be considered, especially with a view to how it would be performed on a period instrument. It's prety plain how it should be performed, I think - only an insistence on crossing the hands between bass and treble will produce a desire to use tbe pedal. It just seems counter-intuitive.


I wouldn't go so far as to say it should be played without pedal, but if you are trying to get at Beethoven's exact desires, then your logic stands.

On a side note I personally like using the pedal, as I think modern instruments are just too dry sounding without it. Adding pedal, whether legato pedaling or direct pedaling makes the whole sound much warmer and rounder, IMO. Probably not Beethoven's original desire, but I'm not one who tries to figure out what the composer actually meant. I am a musical person myself and have every right to interpret according to my own taste. There's an extreme of this of course, where one also fudges the notes and rhythms beyond all recognition - I'm not talking about that wink.
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#1483383 - 07/28/10 06:09 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Morodiene]
Mattardo Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: Mattardo
It's a bit counter-productive to assume that classical-era pianists used that pedal for anything other than special effects - the habit of using it to sustain, in place of fingers, was a later practice. If any sustaining was done - it was an intentional blurring of tones, a dreamy effect.

So Beethoven would not have expected this passage to have pedal applied to it for sustaining.
Judging from examples in the rest of his scores, if he had wanted the special 'senza sordini' effect here - he would have specified it. He was very picky at times.

As far as I can judge - the idea of using the pedal in this passage shouldn't even be considered, especially with a view to how it would be performed on a period instrument. It's prety plain how it should be performed, I think - only an insistence on crossing the hands between bass and treble will produce a desire to use tbe pedal. It just seems counter-intuitive.


I wouldn't go so far as to say it should be played without pedal, but if you are trying to get at Beethoven's exact desires, then your logic stands.

On a side note I personally like using the pedal, as I think modern instruments are just too dry sounding without it. Adding pedal, whether legato pedaling or direct pedaling makes the whole sound much warmer and rounder, IMO. Probably not Beethoven's original desire, but I'm not one who tries to figure out what the composer actually meant. I am a musical person myself and have every right to interpret according to my own taste. There's an extreme of this of course, where one also fudges the notes and rhythms beyond all recognition - I'm not talking about that wink.


Yes - well said.
I feel if a modern piano is to be used, you might as well use everything it has to offer at times.
You're exactly right about using the pedal to avoid dry-sounding modern piano (they're just made TOO efficiently nowadays)- I find that on a forte-piano the tone is not as crisp as a modern piano, it doesn't damp as well. This makes for less need for a sustaining pedal, in my opinion. I find Beethoven extremely easy on an older forte-piano, for this very reason. That, if anything, usually makes me reject any suggestion of using the pedal to sustain on an older piano. AFter experiencing these pianos, I really think that a competent pianist would have been more than capable of getting along without it in most cases.

To me, it seems to be an issue of applying modern piano methods to works that were written for older pianos. I wonder if anyone, having tried a forte-piano, has come to same conclusions about the way they feel and sound under your hands, the idea that using a sustaining pedal would have been overkill.

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#1483397 - 07/28/10 06:28 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C

Taking it back to the initial question: I'm saying that I don't think it ever entered Beethoven's mind to switch hands in the middle of the triplets, because there was no need, not to mention that it causes sacrifices in the rhythm.


You keep saying this as if it makes your argument but after watching several videos and doing my own experimentation, rhythmic sacrifices appear more often in the versions that cross over. Quite frankly, I don't see any reason why there should be rhythmic sacrifice here. Classical music is so rife with RS's I'm stunned anyone would notice anyway.
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#1483422 - 07/28/10 07:31 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Damon]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Mark_C

Taking it back to the initial question: I'm saying that I don't think it ever entered Beethoven's mind to switch hands in the middle of the triplets, because there was no need, not to mention that it causes sacrifices in the rhythm.


You keep saying this as if it makes your argument but after watching several videos and doing my own experimentation, rhythmic sacrifices appear more often in the versions that cross over. Quite frankly, I don't see any reason why there should be rhythmic sacrifice here. Classical music is so rife with RS's I'm stunned anyone would notice anyway.


Another good point. I don't think it causes any sacrifice in rhythm, actually, which is partially why I asked for some audio proof. It all comes down to sound anyways. By switching to LH triplets, there's no sacrifice in rhythm, no "blips" or what have you.
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#1483493 - 07/28/10 10:02 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: pianoloverus]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
....if an editor spend as much time obsessing over some thing like this as you seem to have done, they'd never finish editing more than one sonata.

I never needed to 'obsess' about it, because it never entered my mind to do anything other than cross the hands. There was no reason not to.
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#1483494 - 07/28/10 10:05 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: BruceD]
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I was wishing I had access to either a manuscript or a really good Urtext. (Y'know, there are urtexts and there are urtexts.) smile

If you'd like to be more specific about how Beethoven notated it, I'll be interested -- i.e. "why he wrote the score the way he did."

Like, how is it that he does and doesn't indicate crossed hands?
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#1483500 - 07/28/10 10:13 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Morodiene]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
....you can do it on the modern piano with the pedal. It just takes a little extra attention and sensitivity, but not hugely; it's not one of the more difficult such places in Beethoven.
Have you done this? I would very much like to hear it done. I'm not tied to one way or the other - whatever helps me to play it well is all that I'm concerned about here.

Yes, absolutely. I had never done it any other way when I've 'played through' the piece (never worked on it), and once we got into this discussion, I sat down and went over it carefully (with extreme scrutiny) smile to make sure it really works, although I didn't have any great doubt about it.

Yes, it absolutely works, and if I may say so, it works beautifully. smile
Even as played by me. ha
And without extreme effort. As I said, it's not one of the most challenging of these kinds of things in Beethoven. (The beginning of the last movement of the Waldstein is much harder.)

If I had greater facility with recording and uploading stuff, I'd put it on here. But I don't, which is the main reason I only ever put one thing online (and I had help for that).
I promise you that not only can it be done, it isn't even that hard. Please try it -- listening to yourself carefully and being ready to sort of half-flutter-pedal. (It varies according to the piano and the space. On my piano right here, which is a NY Steinway B, you hardly have to release any of the pedaled sound.)
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#1483502 - 07/28/10 10:17 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Morodiene]
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene
....Actually, my edition keeps the stems up from m. 21 through m. 22.

Hopefully Pianoloverus will see that post. ha

Let me add.....For me, maybe the main outcome of this 'argument' (like many others on the site) is that it makes me more interested in the piece than I ever was before. I hope that's true for others too.
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#1483520 - 07/28/10 10:54 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
....Actually, my edition keeps the stems up from m. 21 through m. 22.

Hopefully Pianoloverus will see that post.
So now there might be one more indicating not crossing hands? Who cares? So the ratio is now only 4:1 in favor of the hands crossed approach.

I thought you admitted about 25 posts ago that most editions and pianists indicated the passage should be played the way you thought was so impossibly incorrect. But apparently not.

Your posts remind of some thoughts expressed by Reuben Fine, one of the great chess players of the 1940's. He claimed that Bobby Fischer had a problem with moves near the edge of the board. When someone pointed out a Fischer mistake in the center of the board, he said "Oh, that's just the inverse of the edge of the board problem."

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#1483561 - 07/29/10 12:28 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: pianoloverus]
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I thought you admitted about 25 posts ago that most editions and pianists indicated the passage should be played the way you thought was so impossibly incorrect. But apparently not.

You are imagining the latter. smile
And mistaken about "most pianists." I never said anything about that.

Quote:
Your posts remind of some thoughts expressed by Reuben Fine, one of the great chess players of the 1940's.....

BTW......I sort of knew the guy.
Including that he happened to be a student at a class I gave.

I guess that makes me about 140 years old. ha

P.S. His book about the psychology of the chess player is pretty preposterous. But that's another story. smile
And dunno about the relevance of what you said to this thread, nor do I think many others will.

Other posters who disagree with me here are doing it on substance, without getting personal. That's a good model.
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#1483658 - 07/29/10 08:28 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
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Not sure if this has been mentioned before, it might provide some clues.
This is going from the Henle Verlag edition - supposedly urtext. If this has already been compared, please forgive me.

Measure 104, the triplets are now explicity written in the lower stave. If you look at measure 30 and on, the triplets are actually written back and forth on the two staves - to me it implies using two different hands for the triplets, to deal with the whole note. I say that, because it would have been just as easy to have written them on one stave - as in most of the passages.

The big difference in 104, is that the whole note is replaced with a shorter note and does not need to be sustained. It makes sense to write the triplets that way, because of this. It seems to be standard piano notation. So it's not necesarry to notate the triplets on 2 different staves - it seems to be okay to cross hands here for the vocal line.

The 1st Edition shows the same practice. http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/2/29/IMSLP51116-PMLP01462-Op.31-2.pdf
Perhaps it we ask Stores nicely, he will tell us about the autograph - he owns many reproductions about them. This is assuming an autograph is available.

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#1483666 - 07/29/10 08:42 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mattardo]
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Very interesting thread this. I have always used the hands crossed approach as it seems very logical, and I know other pianists (Barenboim for example, you can see him on youtube) do it too. But the sustained notes is indeed a good argument. We have to bear in mind though that Beethoven was also the man that put crescendo's on single notes, not everything he writes is possible, he was thinking far ahead of his time.
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#1483676 - 07/29/10 09:14 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
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Parts of your second post in this thread. You begin by saying the same over and over.

Originally Posted By: Mark C
You're kidding...

I mean, I know you're not, but I can't believe it...

I gotta see that...

P.S. Have you ever seen anybody play it that way? I sure haven't -- and that covers dozens of players, of all levels.
Nor have I ever heard or seen anyone raise the possibility...

Something is wrong...
I do not believe that Schnabel meant it the way it appears.

Tell me, Bruce: do you think it's even possible that Schnabel intended the "blip" (often HUGE) that would occur in the left hand if you play it that way?I do not.



Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I thought you admitted about 25 posts ago that most editions and pianists indicated the passage should be played the way you thought was so impossibly incorrect. But apparently not.

You are imagining the latter. smile
And mistaken about "most pianists." I never said anything about that.


You said many posts ago:"However, I was glad to learn (better to know than not to know) that there's such a large view in favor of playing the movement in a way that I had thought was just misguided. (This included my checking on youtube to see if people actually play it that way -- and I see that they do.)"


Originally Posted By: Mark C
Originally Posted By: Pianoloverus
Your posts remind of some thoughts expressed by Reuben Fine, one of the great chess players of the 1940's.....
.
And dunno about the relevance of what you said to this thread, nor do I think many others will.
The obvious relevance was that what Fine said(which you didn't quote) showed a stubborness to prove himself correct that was laughable.

Originally Posted By: Mark C
Other posters who disagree with me here are doing it on substance, without getting personal. That's a good model.
Which you didn't follow in you recent sarcastic comment "Hopefully Pianoloverus will see that post. ha"And I suppose my pointing out 50 posts ago what the huge majority of editions on IMSLP showed is not substantive.


Edited by pianoloverus (07/29/10 10:51 AM)

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#1483685 - 07/29/10 09:36 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
....if an editor spend as much time obsessing over some thing like this as you seem to have done, they'd never finish editing more than one sonata.

I never needed to 'obsess' about it, because it never entered my mind to do anything other than cross the hands. There was no reason not to.
I was talking about obsessing in this thread. As in 24 posts.


Edited by pianoloverus (07/29/10 10:41 AM)

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#1483696 - 07/29/10 10:03 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mattardo]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mattardo
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, it might provide some clues.
This is going from the Henle Verlag edition - supposedly urtext. If this has already been compared, please forgive me.

Measure 104, the triplets are now explicity written in the lower stave. If you look at measure 30 and on, the triplets are actually written back and forth on the two staves - to me it implies using two different hands for the triplets, to deal with the whole note. I say that, because it would have been just as easy to have written them on one stave - as in most of the passages.

The big difference in 104, is that the whole note is replaced with a shorter note and does not need to be sustained. It makes sense to write the triplets that way, because of this. It seems to be standard piano notation. So it's not necesarry to notate the triplets on 2 different staves - it seems to be okay to cross hands here for the vocal line.

The 1st Edition shows the same practice. http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/2/29/IMSLP51116-PMLP01462-Op.31-2.pdf
Perhaps it we ask Stores nicely, he will tell us about the autograph - he owns many reproductions about them. This is assuming an autograph is available.



See, in my Schenker edition, I too have in m. 104 the upper staff in Bass clef and the lower staff in treble, indicating that the LH should cross over the RH. But what of m. 21-22? In this edition, the upper staff in Treble clef, and the lower staff remains bass clef. Also, m. 104 lacks the tied whole notes that are in m. 21-24. Is this also the case in your urtext?
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#1483795 - 07/29/10 12:25 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: pianoloverus]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
.....You said.....
"However, I was glad to learn (better to know than not to know) that there's such a large view in favor of playing the movement in a way that I had thought was just misguided. (This included my checking on youtube to see if people actually play it that way -- and I see that they do.)"

I guess you honestly can't tell that what you claimed I said (i.e. that most pianists do it that way) is very different than what I did say (which you quoted here).

So be it. smile
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#1483864 - 07/29/10 01:36 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
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I just tried the non-crossing method (having always crossed) and I love it. The LH leaps are nothing (barely more than an octave most of the time) and I think the right hand can add more subtlety to the quarter notes.

I don't think I'll go back to crossing. Just my opinion.

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#1484000 - 07/29/10 05:27 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Morodiene]
Mattardo Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: Mattardo
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, it might provide some clues.
This is going from the Henle Verlag edition - supposedly urtext. If this has already been compared, please forgive me.

Measure 104, the triplets are now explicity written in the lower stave. If you look at measure 30 and on, the triplets are actually written back and forth on the two staves - to me it implies using two different hands for the triplets, to deal with the whole note. I say that, because it would have been just as easy to have written them on one stave - as in most of the passages.

The big difference in 104, is that the whole note is replaced with a shorter note and does not need to be sustained. It makes sense to write the triplets that way, because of this. It seems to be standard piano notation. So it's not necesarry to notate the triplets on 2 different staves - it seems to be okay to cross hands here for the vocal line.

The 1st Edition shows the same practice. http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/2/29/IMSLP51116-PMLP01462-Op.31-2.pdf
Perhaps it we ask Stores nicely, he will tell us about the autograph - he owns many reproductions about them. This is assuming an autograph is available.



See, in my Schenker edition, I too have in m. 104 the upper staff in Bass clef and the lower staff in treble, indicating that the LH should cross over the RH. But what of m. 21-22? In this edition, the upper staff in Treble clef, and the lower staff remains bass clef. Also, m. 104 lacks the tied whole notes that are in m. 21-24. Is this also the case in your urtext?


In Henle - measures 21-on, the triplets are in the lower stave, and the melodic line ends up in the upper stave. The tied whole note is present as well - it ties for 3 measures in both instances.

In measure 104, and on - mine is like yours: it's a quarter note, staccato with the the melodic line in the lower stave - indicating left hand to play it.

It's in the latter case that it becomes permissible, in my opinion, to start switching hands - the staccato quarter note gives the player the freedom to do so: it's not needed to sustain the missing whole-note.

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#1484030 - 07/29/10 06:08 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mattardo]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mattardo


In Henle - measures 21-on, the triplets are in the lower stave, and the melodic line ends up in the upper stave. The tied whole note is present as well - it ties for 3 measures in both instances.

In measure 104, and on - mine is like yours: it's a quarter note, staccato with the the melodic line in the lower stave - indicating left hand to play it.

It's in the latter case that it becomes permissible, in my opinion, to start switching hands - the staccato quarter note gives the player the freedom to do so: it's not needed to sustain the missing whole-note.


That is how mine is as well. And I agree with your assessment and that is how I learned the piece as well.
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#1484046 - 07/29/10 06:29 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Victor25]
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Originally Posted By: Victor25
Very interesting thread this. I have always used the hands crossed approach as it seems very logical, and I know other pianists (Barenboim for example, you can see him on youtube) do it too. But the sustained notes is indeed a good argument. We have to bear in mind though that Beethoven was also the man that put crescendo's on single notes, not everything he writes is possible, he was thinking far ahead of his time.


But we don't have to consider it in this case because it is very possible to play this without blips and without crossing hands. Gould crosses hands but makes mistakes on that part (he does the best at holding the bass using this method though), so crossing over doesn't ensure a seamless performance.
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#1484047 - 07/29/10 06:31 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
For me, maybe the main outcome of this 'argument' (like many others on the site) is that it makes me more interested in the piece than I ever was before. I hope that's true for others too.


I can agree with that! thumb
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#1484081 - 07/29/10 07:25 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
.....You said.....
"However, I was glad to learn (better to know than not to know) that there's such a large view in favor of playing the movement in a way that I had thought was just misguided. (This included my checking on youtube to see if people actually play it that way -- and I see that they do.)"

I guess you honestly can't tell that what you claimed I said (i.e. that most pianists do it that way) is very different than what I did say (which you quoted here).
You're nitpicking in the extreme. If I change it to most editions and some pianists I guess you'd be happy, and my point is just as valid. That's why I compared your posts to Reuben Fine's "answer" to the question about Fischer's moves.

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#1484108 - 07/29/10 08:19 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mattardo]
stores Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mattardo



Perhaps it we ask Stores nicely, he will tell us about the autograph - he owns many reproductions about them. This is assuming an autograph is available.



There isn't an autograph for the dminor and there's very little sketch material. The sketches that do exist are from what's known as the Kessler sketchbook (Kessler, is Joseph Kessler, a composer and pianist to whom the book was given by Carl Andreas Stein from the family of piano builders). Though few sketches for 31/2 are included the Kessler sketches are one of the very few completely intact sketchbooks in existence today (i.e. no leaves have ever been removed).
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#1484221 - 07/29/10 11:03 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: stores]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: stores
There isn't an autograph for the d minor.....

Want to offer a thought on what it would show if there were one?

i.e. How Beethoven was conceptualizing the hands and the pedaling in those passages?
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#1484331 - 07/30/10 01:56 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
Mattardo Offline
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I'd love to see that autograph, as well.
You sent me links to many of your photographs at one time, Stores - is this among your collection, or do you have some nice photographs of it you can share with us all?

Don't make me make Mark_C beg ha

>:)

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#1484791 - 07/30/10 05:16 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mattardo]
stores Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mattardo
I'd love to see that autograph, as well.
You sent me links to many of your photographs at one time, Stores - is this among your collection, or do you have some nice photographs of it you can share with us all?

Don't make me make Mark_C beg ha

>:)


Umm, there ISN'T a dminor autograph, Matt. It's not that I don't have it there just isn't one. Reread my post above. So solly.
And by the way the photos you saw were a very small portion of the facsimiles, etc. that I own. I don't have photos of everything (it would take a long time to shoot), but one of these days I'll try to make everything accessible.


Edited by stores (07/30/10 05:24 PM)
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#1484816 - 07/30/10 06:13 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mark_C]
stores Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: stores
There isn't an autograph for the d minor.....

Want to offer a thought on what it would show if there were one?

i.e. How Beethoven was conceptualizing the hands and the pedaling in those passages?


Well, in my opinion it would probably show very much the same thing the first edition (Simrock,1802) shows, which can be found on IMSLP (it's actually the first edition listed). My best guess is that he'd leave the technical aspect of something like hand crossings to the performer, since it's such an individual thing. Beethoven, wasn't quite so free with his pedal markings, however and his indications are still rare even at this point. When he does indicate pedal (as well as it's "leaving point") it's something we should pay attention to, if we're wanting to play it his way, because there's often a strong reason he's left the indication (or not).
Personally, I can't imagine switching hands with the triplets. It's MUCH easier to crossover and as a result there is no break in the continuity, nor is there any accent (or blip I guess we're calling it?...if that's what you meant). It is, of course, entirely possible that Beethoven MAY have changed hands himself with the triplets seeing that for one he possessed excellent technique and the keys of the Viennese pianoforte had not yet begun to widen quite as much as they would in a few, short years. I also cannot imagine using very much pedal at all in this area, nor would I on an early instrument. The triplets, the rate of speed at which they're played and the register they lie in are all a recipe for mud once you throw in much pedal.
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#1484837 - 07/30/10 06:54 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: stores]
Mattardo Offline
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Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: Mattardo
I'd love to see that autograph, as well.
You sent me links to many of your photographs at one time, Stores - is this among your collection, or do you have some nice photographs of it you can share with us all?

Don't make me make Mark_C beg ha

>:)


Umm, there ISN'T a dminor autograph, Matt. It's not that I don't have it there just isn't one. Reread my post above. So solly.
And by the way the photos you saw were a very small portion of the facsimiles, etc. that I own. I don't have photos of everything (it would take a long time to shoot), but one of these days I'll try to make everything accessible.


Ah, duhhh.... that's what happens when I post at 2 in the morning.

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#1485083 - 07/31/10 08:17 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Mattardo]
Victor25 Offline
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I have played it the other way now, and it actually makes quite some sense. You can hold the note down without having to use pedal and muddying it up, and its only in the first exposition (measures 21 - 37). You can see the long notes extended with slurs, and its only possible to play that without crossing hands. But the rest of the piece you do cross hands, but you can see that it is written on the second stave then, so again makes perfect sense. This thread has been an enormous help! It also seems more logical now that he uses the b note twice after eachother in measures 31-32 and so on, instead of a continues stream of 3thds. When the other hand picks over it repeats the last note. Beethoven is fascinating.


Edited by Victor25 (07/31/10 09:03 AM)
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#1485143 - 07/31/10 10:28 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: stores]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: stores

Personally, I can't imagine switching hands with the triplets. It's MUCH easier to crossover and as a result there is no break in the continuity, nor is there any accent (or blip I guess we're calling it?...if that's what you meant). It is, of course, entirely possible that Beethoven MAY have changed hands himself with the triplets seeing that for one he possessed excellent technique and the keys of the Viennese pianoforte had not yet begun to widen quite as much as they would in a few, short years. I also cannot imagine using very much pedal at all in this area, nor would I on an early instrument. The triplets, the rate of speed at which they're played and the register they lie in are all a recipe for mud once you throw in much pedal.


Just a comment here...I'm not one of great technical prowess and yet I had no trouble switching hands on the triplets. I recall starting out trying to use the pedal, but as you say, it turned to mud, and my teacher suggested switching hands. I do not "blip" at this, and so it is not a difficult thing to do. I play the whole note with my LH while the RH continues the triplets for the first beat, then the LH takes them over on beat 2. I don't try to switch immediately at the bar line. I think this makes for a smoother transition, and as I said, it was not that hard to work it up to speed after enough slow practice. I think anyone who is ready to attempt this piece would be capable of this.
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#1485147 - 07/31/10 10:34 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Victor25]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: Victor25
It also seems more logical now that he uses the b note twice after eachother in measures 31-32 and so on, instead of a continues stream of 3thds. When the other hand picks over it repeats the last note. Beethoven is fascinating.


Yes, that is a whole different issue at this point, where you have the repeated notes across the bar lines. It is odd that m. 30 he does not have those repeated notes, but m. 31 and on with the same figures transposed up a step he does repeat the notes. However, at this point we do not have tied whole note sin the base and so I do cross over hands here. I change the fingering on the triplets from 5-2 to 1-4 to aid in the repeated note, and the pedaling is not much of an issue due to no longer needing to play a p melody right after while holding down the tied whole notes.

It's odd, though, because when you bring it up to speed, I don't think you can really hear that repeated note. I wonder now if that was an editorial error in m. 30 or if that was intentional to not repeat the notes, and what purpose it served if it were intentional by Beethoven.
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#1485167 - 07/31/10 11:15 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Morodiene]
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: Victor25
It also seems more logical now that he uses the b note twice after eachother in measures 31-32 and so on, instead of a continues stream of 3thds. When the other hand picks over it repeats the last note. Beethoven is fascinating.


Yes, that is a whole different issue at this point, where you have the repeated notes across the bar lines. It is odd that m. 30 he does not have those repeated notes, but m. 31 and on with the same figures transposed up a step he does repeat the notes. [...]


The other point to consider is that if the B were not repeated in measure 32 (and the C in measure 34, etc., etc.) and if the triplet were to continue in alternating notes, then on the third beat of each measure you would have an open octave sounding with the upper note in the upper stave. Could it be that Beethoven made this change at this point to avoid the open octave?

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#1485172 - 07/31/10 11:31 AM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: BruceD]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: BruceD


The other point to consider is that if the B were not repeated in measure 32 (and the C in measure 34, etc., etc.) and if the triplet were to continue in alternating notes, then on the third beat of each measure you would have an open octave sounding with the upper note in the upper stave. Could it be that Beethoven made this change at this point to avoid the open octave?

Regards,


Ah, good point! I see in m. 29 that he doesn't begin with the alternating 4th, but a descending 5th which does not happen in m. 31, thus the triplet pattern is not the same and thus not in danger of the open octave on beat 3 in m. 30, whereas it is as you say in m. 32 a possibility if the pattern is not reversed in the previous measure.

Thanks for pointing that out! Although I do wonder how audible that open octave would be up to tempo, it is a valid point.
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#1485188 - 07/31/10 12:05 PM Re: Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question [Re: Morodiene]
Victor25 Offline
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Audible or not, I guess he just wanted to get it right smile. @ Morodiene, from that measure on there is indeed not the tied note, however it is a whole note, and must be held down the whole measure. Something I can only do by switching hands for the triplets. So I switch hands now in measures 21-37 and cross-over in the rest of the sonata (no not the whole sonata haha, would be funny though).
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