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I should have mentioned this in my earlier post:
In both the Schabel and Henle editions, following the Allegro at measure 99, the right hand does continue with the triplet figures and the left hand does cross over to play the treble melody.
There must be some reason in both these editions that this particular distinction is so clearly made between the two iterations of this thematic material. Such as? This is yet another aspect that leaves me wondering what the heck is going on with that. I cannot understand why someone like Schnabel (nor anyone) would think of 'breaking' the triplets.
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....Preface by Schnabel....
"The fingerings in this edition may here and there appear somewhat strange. In explanation of the more unusual kinds let it be said that the selection was not made exclusively with a view to technical facility, but rather from the desire to secure - at least approximately - the correct musical expression of the passages in question (as the Editor feels they should be interpreted)..... Yes. In this case, that would mean (wouldn't it?) that he WANTED those "blips"!!! If I really try I can imagine why someone might. But it's not easy to imagine.
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Well, I don't know the reason, but don't you assume there must be one to make the distinction in the execution between such otherwise similar sections.
The only reason I can think for doing this is for the greater ease (ease? huh?) of the execution of that last note/first note repetition.
I do wish I could remember what one of my (brief summer school) teachers said about the execution of these passages, but we only looked at the first movement briefly and whatever comments may have been made at that time have faded from my already feeble memory.
Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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By the way, I tried playing through the measures in question "as written" where the triplets shift from right to left hand. I wouldn't anticipate any difficulties playing it this way at tempo. Someone with a more advanced and a more refined technique than mine should find it relatively easy to play these measures as written. The left hand ascending quarter-notes are staccato which gives one plenty of time to prepare the "shift," it seems to me.
Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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.....The left hand ascending quarter-notes are staccato which gives one plenty of time to prepare the "shift," it seems to me. Are you looking at places like the specific ones I mentioned? They give no time for the shift. Look at where the L.H. is right before the "shift." BTW, to clarify: I'm not saying that those places are the reason not to divide the triplets between the hands; I'm saying that these spots "prove" that this wasn't the intention, because it's impossible to play those places without a "break." Which it is. Of course, "break" might be in the ear of the beholder. Plus it seems (emphasis on seems) that Schnabel really WANTED the "break"!
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[...] Take a look, for example, at these places (and there are others like it). Counting the measures from the start of the theme in question (i.e. where the triplets begin), not from the beginning of the movement:
First note of measure 11 First note of measure 13 First note of measure 15 etc.
Tell me, Bruce: do you think it's even possible that Schnabel intended the "blip" (often HUGE) that would occur in the left hand if you play it that way? I do not.
I'm saying that something got lost in the translation between Schnabel and this printed version. Schnabel did not mean it that way.[/i]
I think the one and only thing that would convince me otherwise would be if such a "blip" occurs in these places in Schnabel's own playing of the piece. I see the measures you mention where the left hand, when played as written, has to jump down a twelfth. Although it's not really a twelfth, is it, when you consider that the last note in the measure is played with the thumb and the first note in the next is played with 5; finger 5 has to jump a ninth. I don't think that those jumps are any more treacherous or any more impossible than that from the first to the second beat of measure 62 (left hand) and that from the first to the second beat in measure 63 (also left hand). Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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Mattardo -- How do you avoid those "blips" at places like where I indicated?
You said "good timing," but I'm saying it's completely utterly impossible (literally) to avoid a blip (which is bad timing) if you do it that way. I really don't get any blips.... my hands are large enough where it's really not that much of a jump. Each switch-of-the-hands comes on what I perceive as a rhythmic accent. I wouldn't want the pasage to be entirely smooth on the accents, anyways. I'm sorry - I'm not sure I'm explaining it well. There is a jump, and it does involve a bit of speed to get it right, but it's really not that bad if you're able to play other things in Beethoven that require quick jumps, and you're using some sensible fingering when you approach the hand-crossing - I usually alter my fingering on the triplets at that point. Any 'blip' should really not be heard, if you're accenting the ryhthms properly and able to make the jump comfortably, in my opinion. It might be an issue of hand-size - I'm not sure. Or getting used to a new concept. I'll have to listen to the Schnabel and see if I can hear these blips.
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After playing it again, if measure 27 is giving trouble in the trasition, it's possible to play the 2nd half of the triplets, along with the half-note A entirely with the right hand - making the transition easier.
It seems that the downward jump is the one giving some people issues?
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I (an somewhat advanced but decidedly amateur pianist) found the two ways of playing through the triplets more or less equivalent in terms of difficulty.
Justin ------- Bach English Suite #5 Scarlatti Sonata K141 . L422 Mozart Sonata K333 Schubert Impromptu opus 90 D899 Schubert Moment Musicaux opus 94 D780
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Yes, it's not difficult at all with some effort. For those worried about breaking the triplets, it's not breaking them, really: it's the equivalent playing a melodic line if it goes from right hand to left hand, or vice versa. Nobody would claim that switching hands, ala Melody in F, is breaking up the melodic line. That's not the only example, but probably the most famous where it consistently happens and is used to teach the skill for many people.
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The OP's question was specifically about the music starting in bar 21. Maybe some posters have started discussing other places?
Three posters, myself among them, have already mentioned around 8 different fingered editions, and in all but one of those editions the fingering indicates changing hands from right to left for the triplets.
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I don't see how you avoid switching hands if you want to hold the notes in the bass clef for 3 bars. I suppose you could play that with the right hand but it leaves you with a somewhat more uncomfortable negotiation at the end of each phrase.
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The OP's question was specifically about the music starting in bar 21. Maybe some posters have started discussing other places?
Three posters, myself among them, have already mentioned around 8 different fingered editions, and in all but one of those editions the fingering indicates changing hands from right to left for the triplets. I think we're discussing the same passages the OP is asking about. I haven't seen anyone veering away from that question.
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.....I don't think that those jumps are any more treacherous or any more impossible than that from the first to the second beat of measure 62 (left hand) and that from the first to the second beat in measure 63 (also left hand). Bruce -- either we're misunderstanding what each other is talking about, or we just have drastically different ideas about these passages. Assuming I'm counting the measures right (and I'm assuming you're counting from the beginning of the movement), those notes you're talking about are QUARTER NOTES, and the ones I'm talking about are triplets -- i.e. 3 times as quick. How are they comparable? Leaping between those quarter notes is essentially no issue at all.
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It might be an issue of hand-size - I'm not sure. Or getting used to a new concept.... I don't think either of those is the issue for me -- just seeing the passage differently, and maybe having a lower threshold for calling something a "blip."
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I don't see how you avoid switching hands if you want to hold the notes in the bass clef for 3 bars.... Good point -- but there's a good answer. The pedal holds the note.This is one of those things where there's an issue about the way the piano has changed since Beethoven's time. On his pianos, I'm pretty sure this would be no issue at all: Put your foot on the pedal, and leave it there through those measures, no sweat. The sound of each note "decays" rapidly enough that the dissonance from the non-harmonic notes won't bother anybody. But on the modern piano......well, it's still not hard to make it OK (there are lots of places in Beethoven that are harder in this respect), but you have to be a bit sensitive about the sound and the degree of pedaling. The pedal holds the note.
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I don't see how you avoid switching hands if you want to hold the notes in the bass clef for 3 bars.... Good point -- but there's a good answer. The pedal holds the note. For 3 bars? I'm not sure that's a sound I would pursue when the alternative isn't that hard. The pedal holds the note.
I saw it the first time.
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.....I don't think that those jumps are any more treacherous or any more impossible than that from the first to the second beat of measure 62 (left hand) and that from the first to the second beat in measure 63 (also left hand). Bruce -- either we're misunderstanding what each other is talking about, or we just have drastically different ideas about these passages. Assuming I'm counting the measures right (and I'm assuming you're counting from the beginning of the movement), those notes you're talking about are QUARTER NOTES, and the ones I'm talking about are triplets -- i.e. 3 times as quick. How are they comparable? Leaping between those quarter notes is essentially no issue at all. If we are talking about the same measures (I prefer to use the numbered measures that start from the beginning to be sure) and if you read closely what I wrote, I think we are talking about the same notes. Yes, the first post I made in this connection was about the left hand quarter notes, but when you pointed to specific spots in the score, I went to those measures and, yes, I was talking about the triplets. So: to clarify : The last triplet left hand note in measure 30 is a D (above middle C) and the first left hand note in measure 31 is a G-sharp. But the D is played with the thumb and the lower G-sharp is played with 5, so the jump is not excessive. It's not as if you have to jump from the D to the G-sharp with the same finger but rather with fingers on the opposite side of the hand, 1 and 5, making the jump less expansive that it sounds if you simply say D4 to G-sharp2. The last triplet left hand not in measure 32 is E above middle C and the first left hand note in measure 33 is an A. but the E is played with the thumb and the A is played with 5, so the jump is not that great; at least they are not any greater than many jumps in Beethoven. Is this not what we are talking about? If it isn't, what are we talking about? Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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Right -- but meanwhile it seems you missed everything in between.
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Sorry, but I'm lost. Let's talk. That post of yours was a reply to a post of mine, in which I referred to measures you had talked about in your previous post. (I hope I haven't just lost you too.) I mentioned that the places you referred to in that previous post weren't anything like the places I had talked about. I didn't understand how you could have felt there was any comparison. So now, in this most recent post, presumably replying to what I had just said and explaining what you were thinking in that previous post, you talk about different measures than in that previous post. Which leaves me at a loss. Maybe we're trying too hard.....
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