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#14807 - 08/07/06 12:19 PM Re: brodmann
Jolly Offline
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Registered: 06/20/01
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Loc: Louisiana
Comments?

Has the M&H had any work done to it? Or is it vintage?

Second comment...as good as the new Chinese may be, for the kind of money we are talking about, I'd be much more inclined to look at the Eastern European pianos.
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#14808 - 08/11/06 12:44 AM Re: brodmann
George K Offline
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Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 999
Loc: The Midwest
Check this out. An evaluation of the Brodmann 187.
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#14809 - 08/11/06 12:15 PM Re: brodmann
Jolly Offline
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Registered: 06/20/01
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Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by George K:
Check this out. An evaluation of the Brodmann 187. [/b]
I noticed in your link a Chinese brand mentioned by Rick I'm not familiar with, that he also thinks is very good.

Things in China are changing rapidly...
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#14810 - 08/11/06 01:32 PM Re: brodmann
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
Hi Jolly

The brand Hailun which Rick mentions, is where Wendl & Lung is made. See links below:

http://www.hailunpiano.com/en/lishi.asp

http://www.wendl-lung.com/

Schwammerl

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#14811 - 08/11/06 01:36 PM Re: brodmann
Colin Crawford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 438
Loc: Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, U...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:


Second comment...as good as the new Chinese may be, for the kind of money we are talking about, I'd be much more inclined to look at the Eastern European pianos. [/b]
Which ones pray tell?

The Hailun And Brodmann pianos that I've seen recently are far better built than most from Eastern Europe.
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#14812 - 08/11/06 02:02 PM Re: brodmann
George K Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 999
Loc: The Midwest
 Quote:
Originally posted by Colin Crawford:
The Hailun And Brodmann pianos that I've seen recently are far better built than most from Eastern Europe. [/b]
Which ones (out of Eastern Europe) do consider inferior to the Broadmanns and why?
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#14813 - 08/11/06 02:06 PM Re: brodmann
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4680
Loc: San Francisco
Hailun's site says that 80% of its production is exported. I think that that is the opposite of the Chinese piano idustry as a whole. The company's purchase of Japanese manufacturing equipment has me thinking that their standard of manufacturing can equal that of Japan.

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#14814 - 08/11/06 02:10 PM Re: brodmann
Colin Crawford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 438
Loc: Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, U...
Hailun has a strong Western European link in Peter Veletzky, who uses the Hailun plant to make his Wendl & Lung range. I have a feeling that he has a family connection by marriage to this part of China, and was introduced to the Hailun factory by a relative. All W&L pianos are exported, none are marketed in China, so this could account for your figure.
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#14815 - 08/11/06 02:22 PM Re: brodmann
Colin Crawford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 438
Loc: Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, U...
 Quote:
Originally posted by George K:
]Which ones (out of Eastern Europe) do consider inferior to the Broadmanns and why? [/b]
Most of them, excepting those like Zimmermann (formerly East German) and others which have been adopted by German mainstream manufacturers, and systematically improved beyond their humble Communist-era designs.

From what I can see (and bear in mind that I live in Europe so get to see a lot of these every week) many Eastern European makers, and I'll name Förster and Petrof as examples, are content to fit a Renner action to an existing design of frame that was probably penned in the late '60s, smarten the cabinet up a bit and affix a higher price tag. It's simply not good enough to do this. The British piano industry did something similar and now it doesn't exist except to assemble Yamahas.

Some Eastern European makers seem content to rest on their laurels whilst the Chinese are breaking new ground.
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#14816 - 08/11/06 02:52 PM Re: brodmann
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Colin Crawford:
 Quote:
Originally posted by George K:
]Which ones (out of Eastern Europe) do consider inferior to the Broadmanns and why? [/b]
Most of them, excepting those like Zimmermann (formerly East German) and others which have been adopted by German mainstream manufacturers, and systematically improved beyond their humble Communist-era designs.

From what I can see (and bear in mind that I live in Europe so get to see a lot of these every week) many Eastern European makers, and I'll name Förster and Petrof as examples, are content to fit a Renner action to an existing design of frame that was probably penned in the late '60s, smarten the cabinet up a bit and affix a higher price tag. It's simply not good enough to do this. The British piano industry did something similar and now it doesn't exist except to assemble Yamahas.

Some Eastern European makers seem content to rest on their laurels whilst the Chinese are breaking new ground. [/b]
Sometimes new is not always better. Or not. I wonder whether one would rather have a M&H from the early 1900s, or one from today...or the same could be mused about Steinway.

I'd take a good Knight vertical over any Chinese vertical I've ever played...now, I haven't laid eyes on a W-L, or a Broadman, so on that level I'm ignorant.

But back to grands...you'd take the Chinese over an A-F, a Petrof, or Bohemia?
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#14817 - 08/11/06 03:16 PM Re: brodmann
Colin Crawford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 438
Loc: Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, U...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:


I'd take a good Knight vertical over any Chinese vertical I've ever played...now, I haven't laid eyes on a W-L, or a Broadman, so on that level I'm ignorant.

But back to grands...you'd take the Chinese over an A-F, a Petrof, or Bohemia? [/b]
At the same price point, yes. No question.

I'm not sure how they're priced in the US, but here on average, an average Chinese piano is about 35-50% cheaper than Eastern European. I don't have grand price lists handy, but taking a decent sized upright (Yamaha U1-ish size) the W&L 122, Yamaha Pearl River 125Mi and Brodmann 121 sell for around £2,500. That price would only buy you a 110cm Petrof with a Detoa action. You'd be paying about £5k for a Renner actioned Petrof 125F1. The 125cm Petrof is indeed a better piano, but not in the same price bracket.

I'd agree that a good example of a Knight takes some beating, but there are many poor ones around too.
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#14818 - 08/11/06 03:35 PM Re: brodmann
George K Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 999
Loc: The Midwest
 Quote:
Originally posted by Colin Crawford:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:


But back to grands...you'd take the Chinese over an A-F, a Petrof, or Bohemia? [/b]
At the same price point, yes. No question.
[/b]
That is an amazing statement - and I'm not saying that I disagree, being too ignorant except to ask questions.

However, you made the statement "at the same price point."
Fine's 2006-2007 supplement says this as to prices.
The cheapest A-F grand (the 170) is $44.219
The cheapest Bohemia (the 150) is $19,800
The cheapest Petrof (the VI) is $21,900

The cheapest Brodman (the 150) is $14,430
the 187 is $17,160

So, at the price point there is no comparison to the August -Forster, the Bohemia comes close, but is still pricier.

Now, how would you rate them at the same size point? Is the Brodmann comparable to the A-F 190 (which lists for three times the price), or the Bohemia 185 which is $10K more?

Believe me, I'm not trying to be snarky, but I am genuinely curious (and I plan on checking the Brodmanns out soon), but I don't see how it's possible to compare "at the price point" for there are no similarly priced European pianos.

Thanks!
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#14819 - 08/11/06 03:48 PM Re: brodmann
Colin Crawford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 438
Loc: Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, U...
I had no grand price lists to hand, which is why I gave an upright for price comparison.
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#14820 - 08/11/06 03:53 PM Re: brodmann
George K Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 999
Loc: The Midwest
Thanks for your thoughts, Colin. Understandably, when speaking of uprights, the price differences become much, much smaller. Having said that, how would you compare the grands that I mentioned as compared to the Brodmann?
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#14821 - 08/11/06 04:25 PM Re: brodmann
Colin Crawford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 438
Loc: Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, U...
I'll let you know as soon as I see a Brodmann grand!

I've only seen three Brodmann uprights so far, two 121s and a 125. All were excellent, consistent in quality and particularly good value, so I'm going on first impressions here!.

Of the recent Petrof/Weinbach grands I've experienced, consistency was very variable indeed, even down to casting quality and shade of paint on the frame on pianos with close serial numbers.

I've never seen a Bohemia, but I've worked on several of the sister piano, the Rieger Kloss. Quality of all of the aforementioned relies totally on dealer preparation; since they are so variable from the factory, comparison is difficult. Every single Rieger Kloss that I know of has needed a fair amount of action recentring before it has proved saleable, and the Petrofs have been only marginally better. Admittedly, once all this heavy preparation had been done, they have all settled down to be pleasant instruments, but I can imagine that in the hands of indifferent dealerships they could be nightmarish. I cannot imagine however, that all of this faffing about will be required with a Brodmann.

I can't comment on recent Förster grands.
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#14822 - 08/12/06 11:41 AM Re: brodmann
mikhailoh Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 4288
Loc: Cincinnati
I played a Petrof III with the Mag Assist action.. did not like it one little bit. The tone was Ok.. not great but OK. The action was horrendous, stiff and clumsy and very difficult to play with any grace at all.
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====

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#14823 - 08/12/06 12:58 PM Re: brodmann
Brick Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/06
Posts: 373
Michael,

There had to be something drastically "off" there. The ones I've dealt with were creamy and light to play. Stiff and clumsy would be the last descriptives I would use. Perhaps an explanation could be gotten by emailing Joe Swenson or John Elliott at Geneva International.

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#14824 - 08/12/06 01:05 PM Re: brodmann
mikhailoh Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 4288
Loc: Cincinnati
Brick,

(Love your screen name, BTW.. 'He's a Brick... House.. he's might mighty")

It was the worst Petrof action I've seen, and that even includes one or two 10 or 15 year old ones. I think it had to be a case of adjustment. I've played some lovely Petrofs.
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Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'

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#14825 - 08/12/06 03:15 PM Re: brodmann
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3448
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
The Petrof magnetic action has a different feel. Some people might take longer to adjust to it than others.

I found it very pleasant and light, especially the sensation of the keys staying in contact with my fingers after release.

--Cy--
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#14826 - 08/20/06 12:35 PM Re: brodmann
George K Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 999
Loc: The Midwest
Read my impressions of a couple of Brodmanns here. Take it for what it's worth, I'm no pro, just an interested consumer.
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#14827 - 08/20/06 09:43 PM Re: brodmann
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13965
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
George:

I happen to agree with your assessment and observations.

For all still not seeing the light:
[or *hearing the sound*...]

The race is on.

"China has arrived".

Rest of the world: "better take note"....

Norbert \:o
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#14828 - 02/22/09 03:46 PM Re: brodmann
Upscale Piano Lessons Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/29/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Plaistow, NH
I played one yesterday and I was very impressed! This Chinese made piano is a manufacturing project that was dumped by Bosendorfer. It was taken over by some Bose execs who left the company. It's basically a reverse engineered Steinway and it plays and sounds like one too. Here's the kicker: The price is actually affordable!

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#14829 - 02/22/09 04:01 PM Re: brodmann
Rod Verhnjak Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3636
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Paul, Nice first post.

What is a reverse engineered Steinway.

Why would ex Bose guys make a piano that sounds and plays like a Steinway
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#14830 - 02/22/09 04:21 PM Re: brodmann
turandot Offline
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Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
 Quote:
Why would ex Bose guys make a piano that sounds and plays like a Steinway
Maybe the project was designed to take a bite out of someone else' apple instead of one's own.

Too much success in approaching the level of the high-priced original with the low-priced clone would create problems. Why not create problems for someone else? \:D
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#14831 - 02/22/09 06:32 PM Re: brodmann
Diaphragmatic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/09
Posts: 422
I am assuming eveyone is aware this thread was started nearly 3 years ago..
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#14832 - 02/22/09 06:56 PM Re: brodmann
Rod Verhnjak Online   content
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Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3636
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Yep, I saw that.
It's one reason I mention "nice first post" :rolleyes:
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#14833 - 02/22/09 10:05 PM Re: brodmann
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13965
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Oh I love those discussions about 'brands'.. \:D

Unfortunatley it takes a bit more knowledge about the various models a maker offers to get "the gist of things"

I've said this here so many times, it's becoming a broken record...

Anybody ever playing a 42 Yamaha E 108 walking away thinking it's a great brand?

Perhaps try the 48" Brodmann 121 and especially the 49" 123 C and M to get a better idea.

http://www.brodmann-pianos.com/upright_piano_123c0.html

Latter just being chosen by a local performance venue out of about 15 others as their "piano of choice" for visiting or hired entertainers.

And it's only an upright...

Norbert \:o
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#14834 - 02/22/09 10:23 PM Re: brodmann
JeffBC Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/04/07
Posts: 120
Loc: Haverhill, MA
Paul (Upscale Piano Lessons) played a PE187 - I know I was there with him.

Of course he also played a few Steinways, Blunthners, Bosendorfers, Estonias, Mason & Hamlins, Steingraebers, a Yamaha, and at least one August Forster. The Brodmann was in good company ;-)
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#14835 - 02/23/09 12:33 AM Re: brodmann
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13965
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
 Quote:
Why would ex Bose guys make a piano that sounds and plays like a Steinway
Because Brodmann was originally planned as a second line to Boesendorfer....

Norbert
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www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
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#14836 - 02/23/09 03:04 AM Re: brodmann
David-G Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/17/06
Posts: 1227
Loc: London
 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:
Because Brodmann was originally planned as a second line to Boesendorfer....

Norbert [/b]
I have been wondering - if the Brodmann line had come to fruition as a second line to Boesendorfer, what (with the benefit of hindsight) would have been the effect on Boesendorfer's finances?

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