Holy Toledo that was fast!

Thanks to the moderator(s).

Aaaand... we're sticky! Thanks to the moderator & superwang!!

Is there a way you could summarize the test result?

By that I mean ...
I've looked at you listing, posted on some file share somewhere. But it's hard to see the whole picture.

It would be useful to have a spreadsheet with a list of models, and columns showing pass/fail (or other metric) for each of your functional tests. Something like this:

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .test . test . test ...
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . #1 .. #2 .. #3 ....
Yamaha .. CVP501 .... F .... P ..... F .....
Yamaha .. CVP503 .... F .... P ..... P .....
Yamaha .. CVP505 .... P .... P ..... P .....
.
Roland .... HP201 ...... F .... P ..... F .....
Roland .... HP203 ...... P .... P ..... F .....
Roland .... HP207 ...... P .... P ..... P .....
.
.
(Or maybe you already have that online and I've missed it??)

KAWAI James asked me the same thing a while ago. Such a table might be a handy thing to have, but it would be a can of worms doing it in any kind of objective way as there are problems with assigning P/F or numbers to many of the tests. For instance, the looping, stretching, and layer tests are performed mainly to investigate behavior, and many DPs only partially pass or fail the various pedal / key / resonance tests. Any numbers I might assign would be more subjective than my actual measurements, and thus wide open to debate (= time suck).

This isn't a DP battle to the death cage match - though that sounds like fun! All I ever intended to accomplish with it was the examination of the sound generation technology in various DPs, and at the same time give people a chance to hear note decay and sympathetic resonance up-close and in isolation, something that seemingly never happens in standard demo songs (and usually for understandable reasons).

The SN sounds can be VERY thin and bright when played forte, and this is something I really like. And yes, for soft playing it is nice and dark, so it's very expressive. The main thing lacking for me is that the interesting frilly bits are missing. It's like looking at the fiords of Norway after having been traced over by a kid with a crayon. :^) FYI I'm basing all this on demos and a brief hands-on.

Greg.

Thanks Greg, I'm very interested in any criticism of the SN sound. Could you elaborate?

My theory (pure conjecture) is that, unless it is really, really well done and highly finessed, something essential is almost always lost when huge amounts of compression (however it's done) are applied to an organic sample set. The hybrid approach seems to offer the most promise, I just don't know if we are or aren't there yet. The glacial pace of DP technology makes me assume the latter, but I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

I just mean that it sounds very processed and refined compares to how a real piano sounds. In a real piano, each note has it's own character, and some notes may even sound a slightly quirky with a bit of a twang or something. In general there are lots of little artifacts in the real thing that are hard to describe - I just don't hear the same detail in this Roland SN. However, I think it sounds VERY good! (it'd be cool if they released a software version, or a hardware module, too)

Greg.

Special Begging Post

I'd really appreciate anyone contributing DPBSD MP3s of the following:

- Yamaha CP50 - CFIII grand (default piano)
- Yamaha CP1 or CP5 - S6 grand
- Casio Privia PX-3 - grand piano 1 (default piano)

Any other suggestions? I'm thinking of adding a permanent begging section to the initial post.

-----------------

If anyone wants to redo any of the older DPBSD MP3 files with the very latest MIDI file (v1.8) that would be cool too.

-----------------

Also, I'm very still open to adding a short musical passage to the DPBSD test. Ideally it would have a variety of:
- dynamics (light, med, & hard played velocity)
- pitch (low, mid, & high pitch notes)
- tempo (slow, med, & fast played notes)

And:
- played by a human, not sequenced
- sounds pretty / interesting
- no copyright issues

Maybe it's asking too much to cover most of that in 90 seconds max? I'll listen to any suggestions.


Thanks!

I agree to some extent...it is certainly a very refined sound. But, Greg, what you are talking about is not present in any DP that I've played. Although they often fall short, manufacturers are aiming for perfection after all...and this means the quirky elements (or imperfections) are removed. I think you'd agree that the perfect Steinway (or whatever) prepared painstakingly would be short of imperfections or quirkiness. The problem with quirkiness in piano sounds is that a manufacturer would alienate far more people than they would attract. Although we would probably all like some imperfections (or character, call it what you will), the problem is we would all like DIFFERENT imperfections. The way to gain the maximum acceptance is to make it as perfect as they can within the limitations of the technology used.

My thoughts anyway.

Steve

Large sample libraries cover most of the bases for me though - that's the point I'm trying to make. They have ALL the sound! So, at the moment, I'd prefer Roland to put multi-GB sampled piano into a DP, at least as an option. I'd also like them to release this as software. (ditto for all brands - I am not singling out Roland)

Apparently they do put more sample memory into the higher end DPs - I understand that. (e.g there's a high end Kawai with FULL length samples, if I understand correctly)

Regarding software pianos, I know that at the moment none of them(?) do some of the finer behavioural things as well as a good DP though. For this, we need Pianoteq, but I prefer the sound and clarity of samples to Pianoteq at the moment. I'm not saying that Pianoteq is not capable of fooling me into thinking I am listening to a real piano - it's just that when I switch back and forth between them, there's a quantum increase in sound quality with the samples.

Greg.

Wow, what DP is that?

The DP1.

I mentioned it to you a little while ago after you questioned why manufacturers hadn't moved over to PC-based hardware running Linux.

The instrument was perhaps a little too advanced for the intended market (button-less touch screen operation), and I expect dealers struggled to explain to customers why they would have to wait for their piano to boot-up (i.e. load samples into memory). However it was a great idea, and had it been released today I'm sure you'd be singing its praises.

Cheers,
James
x

I don't remember that (my fault I'm sure) - could you provide a link to your post?

I remember a post from James very clearly, however it was directed to me. I had said that I suspected that the DP1 was NOT using a general purpose PC for audio - just management. James corrected me. It was in that thread about the Crumar digital piano that runs Pianoteq.

Greg.

Ah, that was it.

Thanks Greg, and my apologies to you dewster for the incorrect reference.

Cheers,
James
x

The DP1 is here:
http://www.kawai.de/service/dp1_katalog.pdf

I think the problem is the price tag. For that price you can buy two Kawai silent pianos or one Kawai Baby Grand.

Typical customers that need all those features will probably prefer a real Baby Grand and typical DP users dont want to pay the price and will expect a realistic pedal action and a 3-sensor keyboard with escapement and Ivory touch nowadays.
He will probably not want to pay 5.1 surround sound.
At least I would prefer a used RX2 that has surround sound too ;-)

It is made for a target customer group that doesnt exist.

DPBSD MP3 Popularity

I was curious as to what MP3 files people were downloading and presumably listening to, so I went and did a bunch of text grabs of the MediFire directories, then a bunch of editing to pare away the chaff. The numbers of course reflect length of time posted as well as popularity.

Another caveat: Martin C. Doege reports that his Yamaha P85 DPBSD MP3 got 82 hits and about 54 complete downloads at his server, so perhaps most people get the MP3s directly from the source post rather than my MediaFire account - thanks Martin!

Here they are if anyone else is interested, I left off the manufacturers that had 5 or fewer downloads. In terms of hardware DPs there seems to be a lot of interest in Casio, Kawai, Yamaha P155 & CP1, and Roland SN:

CASIO
75 dp_bsd_v1.3_casio_px330.mp3

KAWAI
72 dp_bsd_v1.3_kawai_ca63.mp3
26 dp_bsd_v1.4_kawai_mp5_ver1.15.mp3
17 dpbsd_v1.7_kawai_cn33_concert_grand_1.mp3
05 dpbsd_v1.7_kawai_cn33_studio_grand_1.mp3
02 dpbsd_v1.7_kawai_cn33_mellow_grand_1.mp3

PIANOTEQ
69 dp_bsd_v1.3_pt_v3.5.2.mp3
13 dpbsd_v1.6_Pianoteq_3.6.0_K1_SR_X-2I1_Imp3.mp3
10 dp_bsd_v1.4_Pianoteq_v3.5.3beta.mp3

YAMAHA
65 dp_bsd_v1.3_yamaha_p155.mp3
51 dp_bsd_v1.3_yamaha_cp1.mp3
28 dp_bsd_v1.3_Yamaha_MotifXS8_FullConcertGrand.mp3
27 dp_bsd_v1.3_yamaha_p120.mp3
27 dp_bsd_v1.5_yamaha_avant_grand_n3.mp3
17 dp_bsd_v1.4_yamaha_clp330_dr5.mp3
16 dp_bsd_v1.4_yamaha_clp330_max_res.mp3
13 dp_bsd_v1.3_yamaha_ydp223_gp1.mp3
12 dp_bsd_v1.5_yamaha_s90xs_natural_grand_s6.mp3
10 dp_bsd_v1.3_yamaha_p80.mp3
04 dpbsd_v1.8_yamaha_p-85.mp3
02 dp_bsd_v1.4_yamaha_motif_rack_es_full_grand.mp3
01 dp_bsd_v1.5_yamaha_clp-990.mp3

ROLAND
48 dp_bsd_v1.4_Roland_RD-700GX_K-RD700GX1_SuperNATURAL-Grand_Piano_no_sympres.mp3
43 dp_bsd_v1.3_roland_v-piano_vintage1.mp3
43 dp_bsd_v1.4_Roland_HP-307.mp3
17 dp_bsd_v1.3_roland_jv1010_session.mp3
17 dp_bsd_v1.3_roland_rd-700sx_superior_grand.mp3
14 dp_bsd_v1.3_roland_rd-700sx_x_ultimate.mp3

IVORY
39 dp_bsd_v1.3_ivory_steinway.mp3
27 dp_bsd_v1.3_ivory_bosey.mp3
25 dp_bsd_v1.3_ivory_italian.mp3
19 dp_bsd_v1.3_ivory_yamaha.mp3

GARRITAN
27 dp_bsd_v1.3_garritan_steinway_pro_close.mp3

GALAXY
27 dp_bsd_v1.3_galaxy2DE_steinway.mp3
11 dp_bsd_v1.5_galaxy_vintage_d.mp3
06 dp_bsd_v1.3_galaxy2DE_viennagrand.mp3

ACOUSTICA
15 dp_bsd_v1.4_acoustica_pianissimo.mp3

KORG
12 dp_bsd_v1.5_korg_sv1_grand_piano_1.mp3
05 dpbsd_v1.7_korg_sp-250.mp3
04 dp_bsd_v1.5_korg_sv1_grand_piano_2.mp3
04 dp_bsd_v1.5_korg_sv1_electric_grand.mp3

Here's another link: http://www.kawai.de/dp1_en.htm

Doing a quick search, the only pricing I can find on the web for the DP1 lists it as $8,000-$10,000 USD. I believe that's less than half the price of the AvantGrand N3, which I would think would be pretty much the same target audience.

I'm not normally a fan of these grand-shaped DPs, but that hidden touch screen is really nifty. And it isn't looped, something the AG can't claim. Too bad it died.

James, did it ever go into production?

Yes, it was built here in Japan at a DP factory north of Hamamatsu.

I believe the product was first shown at Frankfurt Musikmesse in 2006 (possibly before).

As suggested previously, I loved the concept (and still do), however the instrument was rather expensive and consequently difficult to sell to consumers unfamiliar with iPhones and computers running VSTi.

Cheers,
James
x

Do you know how many (ballpark) were manufactured? What was the MSRP (USD)?


Times do change - it seems as though it could use use a resurrecting. That smoked touchscreen is awesome, it really hides the controls. I'd love a slab with those (no protruding knobs/sliders to get broken). And the no-looping thing was ahead of its time - hell, it's ahead of NOW - give me that too.

Get well soon James!

I'm afraid the DP1 was developed a little before I arrived at Kawai, so I'm not terribly familiar with that aspect of the instrument. I'll try to find out and let you know.

It's interesting to hear you talking about touch controls for DPs. I'm sure such functionality will gradually become more mainstream in the years ahead, however there is still something to be said for the tactile control of a button, knob, or fader - especially on real-time devices such as musical instruments. An interface that physically moves simply feels more reassuring than tapping on a piece of glass.

But to return to one of your previous points, I do not believe the AvantGrand and DP1 would necessarily appeal to the same consume.

While undoubtedly similar in terms of appearance, the AvantGrand is marketed very much as a traditional instrument - there is a slide-out control panel (inspired by Kawai AnytimeX perhaps?), yet it's extremely minimalist to allow pianists to concentrate on their playing.

The DP1 panel was the complete opposite - its software-based tone generator allowed considerable control over the sound. However as terrific as such functionality was for tweakers, it was perhaps too distracting for classically-minded pianists who simply wished to sit down and play.

I believe this is one reason why the AvantGrand works so well - it manages to combine cutting-edge technology within a package that can be easily marketed to traditional pianists. The DP1 offered similar - if not more advanced - cutting-edge technology, yet was simply too modern in its presentation for the kind of consumer that could afford it.



Thanks.

Cheers,
James
x

When it comes to actually playing an instrument, yes, I completely agree with you. There's nothing worse than insufficient tactile feedback in a musical instrument. For advanced as it was, I really hate the Theremin for getting people to think that waving their hands around in space was some kind of leap forward in musical interfaces. It persists to this day among people who don't play but are avid followers / researchers - a real shame.


Some would say dumbed-down.


Yeah, but Yamaha makes a ton of stuff that looks like the inside of a space capsule.

Exhibit A:


Exhibit B:


I love buttons and screens and other electronic doodads festooning control panels, and I also like the look of traditional pianos, but not together - these things look grotesque monstrosities to me. And, unlike the KAWAI DP1, those buttons and stuff don't have the decency to disappear when you want them to. And Yamaha only markets these Apollo Moon Lander class DPs through traditional piano outlets. So I guess I don't see your point and respectfully disagree.

Thought control (or control by intention) is the real frontier, not disappearing touch-screen control panels on which we can still make the wrong entry.

In my very first computer class, the instructor told us, "Computers never do what you want them to--- they do what you tell them to."

Well. It's time to put a stop to that. Though, the human mind, being what it is, some of us may still have a problem.

Off-topic



The Theremin and an orchestra
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0oo6o5d1CY (start 7'10" in)
continues into first couple of minutes of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7-ikoXl5gc

I found it only for much more than 10000 Euro.
e.g. 12500,-
http://www.music-filibe.com/webshop/product_info.php/info/p5247_KAWAI-DP1-Digital-Grand-Piano.html

I also like the display, it looks impressive, but it doesnt make sound or touch.
The display is without doubt one of the most expensive components and apart from good looking in these seldom moments where you need it, its main advantage is that you can switch it off and you dont see it and it doesnt disturb. If I had to pay it I would think twice. I think that is a misconception.

From functionality it is basically an MP8II keyboard, with an added computer and sound library and powerful amplifier and speakers in a shiny case. I think its much too expensive for that. When it is out of support, then upgrading and software-maintenance is impossible.

Would prefer a Grandtouch and add the computer myself and upgrade it as I want for much less money and get a real keyboard action.

Peter

Doing a quick search, the only pricing I can find on the web for the DP1 lists it as $8,000-$10,000 USD. I believe that's less than half the price of the AvantGrand N3, which I would think would be pretty much the same target audience.

The typical street price for the N3 is around $15,000 (and over here, €14,875).

An A2 can be had for around $9,000.

What's an A2? It sounds like a Dutch highway.

An A2 is a Car:

They design also ugly pianos:
http://www.boesendorfer.com/en/audi.html


BTW, I didnt like the design of the DP1 cabinet too much.
Those two frontlegs remind me to a heavy duty molding press, not to a piano ;-).
Probably that is meant to be modern or futuristic design, but I cannot stand it.

;-)

Peter

A quibble, but that includes 20% tax. Is that used, remainder stock, or what? I wonder what it was selling for new via Kawai dealers during the time of manufacture?


They make fairly inexpensive chips that handle capacitive switch, knob, and slider interfaces, I don't think it has to add much in the way of cost nowadays. Removing mechanicals usually increases reliability and reduces manufacturing costs. And there's no reason you couldn't include some tactile stuff somehow, such as indentations, bumps, grooves, etc. where the controls are to guide your finger - of course it wouldn't disappear so well, but I'd probably prefer the guides over a flat surface. A tapping solenoid was used to give tactile feedback to the membrane keyboard in the Rhodes Chroma synth.

It seems there is a fair number here who now own the Roland RD700-GXF (or, equivalently, the RD-700GX with the K-RD700GX1 expansion board).

Could I pester one of you fine people into doing a v1.8 DPBSD MP3 of it? This would be a retest to check various things that were added since v1.4 of the MIDI test file.

Reportedly there are ways of turning on all the effects during MIDI playback except unfortunately for pedal noises. I believe Lawrence is quite the expert at this so perhaps you could consult with him before attempting the test to see what is required.

Lawrence, if you could post your RD-700GXF MIDI setup secrets I would be most grateful!

TIA!