Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Beethoven #17 Sonata fingering question

In Henle - measures 21-on, the triplets are in the lower stave, and the melodic line ends up in the upper stave. The tied whole note is present as well - it ties for 3 measures in both instances.

In measure 104, and on - mine is like yours: it's a quarter note, staccato with the the melodic line in the lower stave - indicating left hand to play it.

It's in the latter case that it becomes permissible, in my opinion, to start switching hands - the staccato quarter note gives the player the freedom to do so: it's not needed to sustain the missing whole-note.

That is how mine is as well. And I agree with your assessment and that is how I learned the piece as well.

But we don't have to consider it in this case because it is very possible to play this without blips and without crossing hands. Gould crosses hands but makes mistakes on that part (he does the best at holding the bass using this method though), so crossing over doesn't ensure a seamless performance.

I can agree with that!

You're nitpicking in the extreme. If I change it to most editions and some pianists I guess you'd be happy, and my point is just as valid. That's why I compared your posts to Reuben Fine's "answer" to the question about Fischer's moves.

There isn't an autograph for the dminor and there's very little sketch material. The sketches that do exist are from what's known as the Kessler sketchbook (Kessler, is Joseph Kessler, a composer and pianist to whom the book was given by Carl Andreas Stein from the family of piano builders). Though few sketches for 31/2 are included the Kessler sketches are one of the very few completely intact sketchbooks in existence today (i.e. no leaves have ever been removed).

Want to offer a thought on what it would show if there were one?

i.e. How Beethoven was conceptualizing the hands and the pedaling in those passages?

I'd love to see that autograph, as well.
You sent me links to many of your photographs at one time, Stores - is this among your collection, or do you have some nice photographs of it you can share with us all?

Don't make me make Mark_C beg

>:)

Umm, there ISN'T a dminor autograph, Matt. It's not that I don't have it there just isn't one. Reread my post above. So solly.
And by the way the photos you saw were a very small portion of the facsimiles, etc. that I own. I don't have photos of everything (it would take a long time to shoot), but one of these days I'll try to make everything accessible.

Well, in my opinion it would probably show very much the same thing the first edition (Simrock,1802) shows, which can be found on IMSLP (it's actually the first edition listed). My best guess is that he'd leave the technical aspect of something like hand crossings to the performer, since it's such an individual thing. Beethoven, wasn't quite so free with his pedal markings, however and his indications are still rare even at this point. When he does indicate pedal (as well as it's "leaving point") it's something we should pay attention to, if we're wanting to play it his way, because there's often a strong reason he's left the indication (or not).
Personally, I can't imagine switching hands with the triplets. It's MUCH easier to crossover and as a result there is no break in the continuity, nor is there any accent (or blip I guess we're calling it?...if that's what you meant). It is, of course, entirely possible that Beethoven MAY have changed hands himself with the triplets seeing that for one he possessed excellent technique and the keys of the Viennese pianoforte had not yet begun to widen quite as much as they would in a few, short years. I also cannot imagine using very much pedal at all in this area, nor would I on an early instrument. The triplets, the rate of speed at which they're played and the register they lie in are all a recipe for mud once you throw in much pedal.

Ah, duhhh.... that's what happens when I post at 2 in the morning.

I have played it the other way now, and it actually makes quite some sense. You can hold the note down without having to use pedal and muddying it up, and its only in the first exposition (measures 21 - 37). You can see the long notes extended with slurs, and its only possible to play that without crossing hands. But the rest of the piece you do cross hands, but you can see that it is written on the second stave then, so again makes perfect sense. This thread has been an enormous help! It also seems more logical now that he uses the b note twice after eachother in measures 31-32 and so on, instead of a continues stream of 3thds. When the other hand picks over it repeats the last note. Beethoven is fascinating.

Just a comment here...I'm not one of great technical prowess and yet I had no trouble switching hands on the triplets. I recall starting out trying to use the pedal, but as you say, it turned to mud, and my teacher suggested switching hands. I do not "blip" at this, and so it is not a difficult thing to do. I play the whole note with my LH while the RH continues the triplets for the first beat, then the LH takes them over on beat 2. I don't try to switch immediately at the bar line. I think this makes for a smoother transition, and as I said, it was not that hard to work it up to speed after enough slow practice. I think anyone who is ready to attempt this piece would be capable of this.

Yes, that is a whole different issue at this point, where you have the repeated notes across the bar lines. It is odd that m. 30 he does not have those repeated notes, but m. 31 and on with the same figures transposed up a step he does repeat the notes. However, at this point we do not have tied whole note sin the base and so I do cross over hands here. I change the fingering on the triplets from 5-2 to 1-4 to aid in the repeated note, and the pedaling is not much of an issue due to no longer needing to play a p melody right after while holding down the tied whole notes.

It's odd, though, because when you bring it up to speed, I don't think you can really hear that repeated note. I wonder now if that was an editorial error in m. 30 or if that was intentional to not repeat the notes, and what purpose it served if it were intentional by Beethoven.

The other point to consider is that if the B were not repeated in measure 32 (and the C in measure 34, etc., etc.) and if the triplet were to continue in alternating notes, then on the third beat of each measure you would have an open octave sounding with the upper note in the upper stave. Could it be that Beethoven made this change at this point to avoid the open octave?

Regards,

Ah, good point! I see in m. 29 that he doesn't begin with the alternating 4th, but a descending 5th which does not happen in m. 31, thus the triplet pattern is not the same and thus not in danger of the open octave on beat 3 in m. 30, whereas it is as you say in m. 32 a possibility if the pattern is not reversed in the previous measure.

Thanks for pointing that out! Although I do wonder how audible that open octave would be up to tempo, it is a valid point.

Audible or not, I guess he just wanted to get it right . @ Morodiene, from that measure on there is indeed not the tied note, however it is a whole note, and must be held down the whole measure. Something I can only do by switching hands for the triplets. So I switch hands now in measures 21-37 and cross-over in the rest of the sonata (no not the whole sonata haha, would be funny though).