Hype and let hype.

Why should I? I've never said anything damning about the piano. I simply have not yet played one in my market area that matches what is said about them on this forum. I invite you and others to look at my first post on this thread. It was only when it took a different direction that I decided to further clarify why I believe this instrument (and Hailun) are hyped to the exclusion of other competing brands.

Are you purposely missing my point? The common thread is the dealer exposure and hype on this forum!

Ok, let me go on record too: I want to build the best piano coming out of Vancouver. I hope that makes it true! ?!?!?!?
In any case, I'm not even questioning Mr. Hailun's instruments. I've played some of the Hailuns and they are decent pianos. I've also played others from China that were decent pianos.

My personal irritation? I think I probably speak for many of the silent majority.

Hey, thanks for the advice. Should I shut my mouth now because of lack of good evidence about my personal experience. Everything I've said on this thread has been a result of my growing knowledge my local piano market. I thought the purpose of this forum was to share information. I'm doing that. Yes, I've been quite disappointed about what I've found. Yes I've been disappointed by the deception and tactics used by dealers I've met. On the flip side though, I've also met some great piano dealers. I guess I'm here to make sure they have some sort of voice on here to provide balance.

And I recall you calling me the part of the 'morality police' in the past. I suspect you are going in that direction again, no?

Dear Sceptical:

You have been to our store and other Vancouver stores many many times playing for hours on all kinds of pianos.

In our case, we treated you with great respect and patience, my wife offering you fresh coffee and cookies every time you came.

Seeing value in spending so much time in local piano showrooms I am sorry about your impressions stated above.

I hope it left us out of it.

Please let me congratulate you to the decision you made for yourself in the end once again,

Norbert

I wasn't sure it was worth the effort to respond. Now I'm convinced it isn't. You have it all figured out to your own satisfaction. It's not a matter for discussion, just a campaign of enlightenment.

At least make up your mind though.





Are you the populist candidate appealing to strong grass roots or are you one of a handful who sees through the facade?

Scepticalforumguy,

I agree with most of your statements in this thread and with those of Mike Carr.

You know, there can't be skepticism here... You have to follow the common thought...

Beside that I must say that this forum , I mean the Piano Forum of Piano World, in my opinion is one of the most stupid and useless of the entire web (useful only for merchants).

i would beg to differ Petrarca...

i've been at PW for a long time.. since January 1st, 2003.

i have followed this forum since day one. I've seen thousands of people benefit from the counsel freely offered here. I've seen hundreds of pictures of new pianos bought after the handholding, patient guidance and expert information received. Whether it be a digital, used console, starter grand or super high-end grand, posters have been given excellent information and great advice.

check out some of the 'show us your piano' threads to get an idea of what i mean.

i really have no idea where you are coming from. maybe you'll have a better feel of what this forum is all about after a while.

I have learned a ton from this forum. As with everything else I consume on the web (or most anywhere else), it's up to me to apply appropriate skepticism. The energy here is undeniable.

What is Estonia's annual production volume ... a few hundred? If so, how can the company steal much market share (or even relevant mind share) from anyone? I guess Hailun is another story.

This is an entertaining thread for sure, if a bit repetitive. I look forward to my daily visit to PW in general and to this thread in particular. I keep telling myself I should read a book, but I keep coming back here. And I don't even play, am just researching pianos for my wife.

I guess I should've said I'm bored talking to you, defender and champion of Piano Forum, about it. I still wonder what you have to gain by posting the things you do. As you can probably tell I'm not here to become popular or to somehow reassure myself of my own intelligence and selfworth, but I do question your motives at times.

Interesting how my views and retelling of my experiences has become the target of your attacks.

Yes, thanks for the offer of cookies and coffee. I don't believe I ever sampled them, but the offers were kind at least.

Scepticalforumguy,

I too have been here for many, many years. I too have seen thousands of shoppers who have benefitted greatly from the advice here. Being the 15th or so most prolific posters, I can make some informed judgements about those who have also posted extensively.

Your questioning of Turandot's motive show that you are unfamiliar with his posting history. The facts are that he has given great advice to hundreds. he is unaffiliated and has no real bias.

Your generalizations about the Forum, and the industry show a lack of depth of knowledge about both.

Interesting that you see me as a defender of the piano forum. Like anyone here, I get exasperated at times with repetitious BS, mindless nitpicking, and opportunistic dealer posting. The thing is that the rules here don't prohibit anyone from making an ass of himself. In the end you have to trust people's good judgment in sorting things out. If they can't, that's life.

The piano industry in NA is dying in case you haven't noticed. It tears at me a little to read posts of members who just want to tear everyone and everything down all the while claiming to care about the industry. I'm not saying that's you by any means, but you really should narrow your focus. Your message wasn't Mike's and I don't think it's Petrarca's, but if you take an elitist position and imply that most people have been deluded, the ragtag army of supporters clinging to you will be a collection of malingerers, conspiracy theorists, agendists,and cave-dwellers rushing into the light to proclaim that this place is stupid.

I will not get involved in any discussion of your points from here on. I have no wish to be popular, unpopular, or to bore you. Besides, it's not that important. Sensible people will listen to the Etonia pianos, not to what youhave to say.

Actually, up until this point I was going to agree with you for the most part, but then you ended badly.

Come on stupid people! Unite with me! I'll promise not to lead you to certain doom!

Sensible people, you should know by now that I'm a lunatic spouting nonsense--you have the facts to prove it now! Take any one of my posts (but please do so out of context, twist it to suit your agenda, then attack the deformed nature of the now beaten down comment laying helpless in this forum) and use it to prove my lack of insight, and inability to understand things as much as you do!


If nothing else, this is at least entertaining me now. Anyone care to talk about tequila or something remotely more interesting?


Oh, and Steve C, you might want to take a trip up to my neck of the woods and see for yourself. I'd be happy to show you around. At that point you can judge for yourself whether I don't know what I'm talking about. And your PM is full, btw.

My PM is available now.

Wow!

Caro/a turandot,

I'll write in Italian because I understand you like the works of Puccini and consequently you probably have some familiarity with this language, otherwise what are you going to understand?

Non mi è piaciuta la descrizione del sottoscritto con epiteti quali "raccolta di lavativi, teorici della cospirazione, agendisti e cavernicoli" da lei fatta in un precedente post. Mi ha urtato non poco.

Veda in futuro di evitare certi sproloqui sugli utenti in genere. Specialmente verso quelli meno stagionati di lei.

Dietro il fatto che abbia definito il "piano forum" stupido potevano esserci motivi plausibili...

Per alcuni utenti argomenti come quello qui trattato possono risultare fastidiosi e anche noiosi.

Mi spiace di ammettere che spesso non riesco ad approfondire ulteriormente i miei punti di vista, ma Il mio inglese purtroppo non è di un buon livello (faccio uso frequente di google translator per trovare le giuste parole per esprimermi).

Well I must say that I am amazed at the feedback and conversation I've generated from my first ever PW post.

I suspect as someone who works independently in the investment industry (please hold your chuckles) and has found himself undecided on the value of the Estonia versus other high quality pianos, I should have expected the variety of opinion and discussion this piano has generated. I say that because obviously Estonia is the "hot" piano of the day for both buyers and enthusiasts to mull over. And just like any "hot" investment, opinion varies amongst owners, detractors, sellers, and those with no vested interest whatsoever.

Stock discussion oftentimes moves on to off topic stuff like vacuum cleaners, personal shenanigans, and other humorous discourse, just as this thread has - which I've thoroughly enjoyed perusing. I'd like to thank everyone for chiming in with a thought, as you've given me a lot to think about as I continue on my upgrade quest. I've yet to come to a decision, yet I find the feedback on this and other posts as extraordinarily helpful. I've been educated immensely - and that certainly speaks volumes about the PW brethren.

I will be posting more on PW... hopefully I can generate more interesting, intelligent, and witty conversation.

Best regards, Adam

This thread offers little insight but instead regurgitates what has been said before with the usual suspects getting into verbal fights here to prove their intellectual mettle in a somewhat self-adulating fashion.
Having been curious about all the hype, I have played some Estonias and Hailuns, too. I can see why people like the Estonia. It's a quality piano, although I didn't connect with it musically. Having played Hailun, my impressions were luke-warm. It's ok especially for the money. It's an economy-class piano. But that's it. Not something that gets my musical engine running. Definitely not the best piano built in Asia. Not by a long shot! Unless it is able to eclipse the likes of Shigeru Kawai and Yamaha's former S class. I'd say, in terms of quality for the price, the Shigeru is the best deal out there right now.

I am sure someone here will retort: "Yes, but the pianos you played weren't fully prepped. If they had been, you would have loved them." To which I respond: "Should have, would have, could have..."

There are brands that get almost no mention here because people aren't familiar with them.

Petrarca,

Caro would be correct.

Your English is certainly better than my Italian. The structure is clearly not from Google translator. Perhaps you rely on Google for a word or two. In arriving at a conclusion that this forum is one of the most stupid on the web, I hope your understanding of English did not mislead you.

I understand that you are not pleased with my reference to certain forum elements. Your "cavernicoli" is a precise translation of my cave-dwellers, but please remember that I referred to "cave-dwellers rushing into the light". That was a reference to Plato's Allegory of the Cave. Since Petrarca is a Renaissance man whose writings are often ironic and humorous, I'm sure you will appreciate the irony.

Regarding your post, I also agree with some of the sentiments expressed by Mike, Jethro, and SFG that Estonia can at times seem larger than life on this forum, and that a disproportionate share of favorable attention will pleases those who sell Estonia. However, I certainly don't hold that against the pianos. My point from the beginning has been that people are not stupid. They will try to spend whatever money they have available wisely and buy a piano that gives them pleasure. They will compare different pianos, not different biased opinions of pianos. I can easily understand how Estonia pianos can give people pleasure. I can easily understand how most any piano on the market today would make someone happy. I cannot buy into the idea that Estonia pianos are overpriced in the US, but that's my personal opinion based on looking around at prices of their competitors. Others may disagree. Each shopper can reach his own conclusion about price/value.

If someone wants to make the point here that there are many worthy alternatives to Estonia at or below its price point, he can simply call attention to those pianos and advise a shopper to consider them them as well. That would be constructive. Such a person need not drag Estonia through the mud questioning its country of origin, maker, marketing, and distribution, suggesting that this forum has willfully over-hyped Estonia. Such a person would not call this forum stupid. People who drag pianos through the mud for reasons that have nothing to do with their musical potential and people who write off the forum as stupid are not providing any constructive advice or criticism. They are simply bitching and moaning. If someone wanted to reasonably express the reservations about Estonia pianos that have been cited here, that person could simply say

"nice piano with a very lyric tone, probably over-hyped on this forum, a bit pricy due to limited production and status as a hot-ticket item. Compare it to X,Y, and Z and make up your own mind. Don't make a decision based on one audition in a showroom."

That would sum it up without all the stinkbombs, tear gas, pyrotechnics and histrionics. I think that's the approach that Jethro took. It seemed (to me at least) that he was trying really hard to be fair in his comments.

If you want to communicate a post to me personally, it's probably a good idea to either enable private messages or send me an e-mail at shempenman@gmail.com. It's a little awkward communicating through public posts.

The first thing coming to mind is what anybody in the word could possibly expect when asking feedback or opinion on a 'make' of a piano.

No consideration given to model, consideration of price, consideration to a number of other often very important variables.

Just 'make'

In this context I have never understood why the discussion of Estonia should be different than any other piano in the world.

Let's assume for a moment there is no 'distraction' by someone like Larry Fine putting pianos into certain tier groups.

Let's assume there is no Piano Forum and no discussion about pianos on the web.

Let's especially assume that all pianos are priced the same and budget not even entering the equation.

Let's assume this is 1923 and people go out looking at a few hundred piano names and makes out there.

Were people in those days not able to find a suitable instrument for themselves?

Did people then follow each and every 'advice' they were given - perhaps much more forcefully - by their pastor,rabbi,neighbours, friends, teachers and music peers?

Ask yourself.

During my recent trip through Germany I played a good number of rebuilts with names I have never heard before.

All very nice pianos within their own right.

So, why should this be any different today?

Why would you and me not be able to go out, sample the variety of goods and come to a conclusion of your own?

Because your music peers tell you that in your position you must own such and such piano?

Or the institution you learn or teach in only buys certain brands?

Or because some whizkids on the Forum here [other than owners of course..] *tell* you to buy this or that make?

Or perhaps because your budget forces you to only look at certain pianos you actually *can* afford?

Like those who dream to own a 7' Yamaha S, Steinway, Bosendorfer or Bechstein grand but can only afford......

And then end up being happy with it.

Because you probably heard about a piano in your price range that may be worth looking at?

Well, you committed the crime to take up some reading, started to ask questions and then became terribly swayed by the opinion of those who expressed an opinion, whatever that opinion might have been or *why* it was possibly ever given.

Including all the owners of any such piano.

What shame.....

Norbert

The OP seemed to feel the dialogue was of benefit so not all is lost.

Nothing new here? Just regurgitation? Rating a piano according to an opinion of the caliber of its country of origin's democracy, by the choice of market made by its maker, by its maker's habit of visiting dealers in person and getting their feedback, and by its popularity with its owners as expressed on this forum, and giving it loweer grades because of these factors -- that seems new to me.

I suppose it would be different if someone ran down Seiler because of post-war aid to a defeated Germany and shaky management by the secretary turned company president, you might find something alarmingly new about that. I would too.

Did you ever consider that members who fight back against this kind of crap (including dealers of the brand) may simply be doing it out of a sense of fairness? Who the hell are you to read minds and say that people are regurgitating and simply posting for their own self-adulation? You are one pompous dude.

Do you suppose that you've made some kind of huge contribution to the knowledge base here with your late entry saying that Estonia is a quality piano and with your standard Hailun dust-off of being an economy-class piano. The OP didn't ask anything about Hailun, but you found a way to fit that dust-off in your post, didn't you? Do you think that Hailun buyers and shoppers don't know where the brand stands in the price pecking order?

Do you go up to economy-class passengers on airplanes and inform them they are sitting in economy-class seats? It wouldn't surprise me at all.

BTW, I was the one who posted Chen Hailun's goal. You are the one who took it to task. Do you understand the meaning of the word 'goal'? It's something one aspires to in the future. Chen never said that he is building the best pianos in Asia. I brought up his goal because "in Asia" is significant to me. He did not state an aspiration to better all high-end makers.

Asian entrepeneurs are smart. They realize the income potential (or lack thereof) from pursuing the wild geese of Europe. Why beat yourself u setting that goal when you can just stand by and rescue a Euro brand from the dustbin as Yamaha did with its last-minute bid for Bösendorfer and SMC did when it scooped up Seiler?

Well, I'm feeling good now. Hope you are too. Nice disagreeing with you.

PSI agree with your last statement: "There are brands that get almost no mention here because people aren't familiar with them." That is a real problem, but what to do about it? Ay ideas?

deleted

I think the constant promoting of Estonia and Hailun by a few is a problem but not only because they get a disproportionate amount of the talk(which some readers could be swayed by). It's a question of having a constantly talking ten ton gorilla in the room.

Some would reply "Just put them on ignore", but I disagree. I think that's like someone who is blasting an annoying boom box telling you "Just use earplugs if you don't like it."

The OP started with "I would like to get opinions on EStonia."

So it is normal then he got opinions as multiple replies; what else should this forum be for, trying to meet the OP's needs?

As a result of his opening he got 7 responses, 3 from dealers (well balanced opnions) and 4 from members/owners.

He then said:

So the thread could have ended here but it did not.

Then came some quite provocative statements starting with post #1478591 and the debate started evolving in the direction it went. Who is the to blaim this thread run till 6 pages, the brand got 'disproportionate' attention, nothing was told we already did not know....??

schwammerl.

...er, me? I was provocative at that point? It seems that what I did was provide my point of view which included my frustrations with the Piano Forum. Others agreed, others disagreed. Some supported Estonia, others did not. None of this happened in the first six posts, so it appeared to me the OP was NOT getting a balanced and fair few of the piano. They came here for advice, I didn't see anything but dealers and supporters of the product. I believe I provided the balance. Perhaps it opened a can of worms, but nevertheless I felt someone should chime in (with time on their hands, and a chip on their shoulder )

Hi scepticalforumguy,

The only point I want to make and what I was responding to is that anyone is entitled to give her or his opinion whether ,provocative or whathever but that if then others come with counter arguments, disagree ... one should not wonder why at hread runs to 6 pages, that the brand being discussed if too much in the picture or that opinions, arguments are recurrent and not new anymore.

The thread simply becomes animated and lively and anyone who feels he has seen enough can simply refrain from reading or posting.

schwammerl.

Perhaps it would have been best to express frustrations about the piano Forum in a seperate thread.

i get tired of the Estonia detractors who always must put their two cents in .. those who sell or own a different piano who are bothered by the attention Estonia gets. i thought about this a lot yesterday while playing my 168 in a new space, one that resonates and amplifies.

I don't remember, but there has been little talk of the extraordinarily unique tone of Estonias. It's really like no other piano. certianly not tinkly.. full of rich dark overtones that swell and bloom.

The first one I played (and I just happened to stumble across it an estate sale) grabbed me. it was so beautiful and i just decided to order one when i could get the money together.. Thanks to gramps (rest his soul) and my husband it only took a few months to match my savings and the amount from my piano sale.

I would be happy with any better piano. I often pop in to support Baldwins particularly because i love the longer ones and they can be such a value. I just like to practice and simply want a piano that works perfectly. . I really enjoy the fact that a note will sustain for 3 or 4 measures.

sooooo, sorry to revive this thread, but i get seriously irritated with those who always chime in with noninfo. Estonias were particularly desirable when i bought mine. the price was so incredible. Now, they are more in line with other pianos.

I just had a few minutes and read through this thread. I was impressed by the passion on both sides. Turnandot, just for the record both current Estonia dealers in Southern California are members here.

In response to this thread I would say that we all have our opinions here on PW and they are that, just opinions which we are all entitled to. After we compare the fit and finish and the nuts and bolts of brand "E" to brand "Y" to Brand "K" it still comes down a player pulling out a piano bench, sitting down, touching a keyboard, felling it and hearing it. Either it speaks to you, or it doesn't and no amount of pontificating, adulation, kvetching, witticisms or an individual's "personal experience" on either side of this issue will change that or sway someone one way or another. This is true for every piano discussed and debated on this forum. I understand for those of you shopping for pianos the contradictory information on forums such as these can be confusing. I would say read as much as you can on PW and other sources, do your due diligence as you would with any big purchase then when you've narrowed down your choices trust yourself, your ears and your hands for the tone that sings to your heart and the touch that you like the best. In the end that is the only opinion that really matters.

Haven't been here in ages and here is a subject near and dear to my heart. I bought my Estonia 190 in 2004. It was the best purchase of my life. I knew if I didn't buy then I would be priced out of the market and I was right. It has just gotten better and better, especially with the help of two wonderful techs to bring it to its full voice in its early years. It now sings like a bird and is as solid as a rock in its tunings. It is a wonderful instrument assuming it suits your personal taste.

Good luck.

I think many of those who complain about Estonia are complaining not about the piano but about the endless talk of a small number of dealers.

Just like many who complain about Steinway are not complaining about the piano but about Steinway marketing tactics or Steinway prices.