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#1486211 - 08/01/10 10:23 PM Casio AP620 Design Flaw?
Gorm Laben Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 79
Loc: Wisconsin
Long time lurker; first time poster. Love the forum!

Been teaching myself for a year and am soon to get some professional help. This stuff is great! Though, I've been on a 61 key board and it's time.

I recently purchased the new Casio AP-620. The sound is magnificent, the weighted-hammer keys are better than anything else I have tried anywhere near the price point.

Unfortunately, the keys seem loose - they can touch each other and often do when playing, and frequently they 'catch' on each others' top edges and this makes a 'clacking' noise when playing!

I went to the store and tried a lower-tier model of the same line (Casio AP-220). These keys were much firmer in place, but they still could touch each other and there were one or two that seemed to catch (though not enough of a catch to produce a clicking noise). The lower-tier Yamahas they had there (Arius 140) had keys that were much better aligned; they didn't ever even touch each other. However, the action was springy and not weighted.

I am returning the item and getting a new one, in the hopes it is a quality control issue with this particular board and not a design flaw. However, I'm suspicious of the line.

Any thoughts? I don't want to spend more than $2,000, and I want the (otherwise) quality action and sound I felt in the Casio. They sample four times per key, compared to the Arius 161's 3. They have 4 speakers at 30 watts versus 20. They have hammer-weighted keys with triple action...Hopefully the new one is perfect...
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--- Estonia L190 #7249 ---
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#1486245 - 08/01/10 10:57 PM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: Gorm Laben]
cast12 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 219
I had the same problem with my Privia PX830. All of the new Casios are very similar, so I doubt that your problem is characteristic of or exclusive to the AP-620 model.

I returned my PX830 and ordered an AP-620, which should arrive at my house on Tuesday. I'll let you know whether it has any problems.

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#1486313 - 08/02/10 01:01 AM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: cast12]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 846
Loc: Lakewood, CA
I have noticed this problem on a PX-130 I saw at a Best Buy store recently. The keys have too much side to side movement. I was surprised to see how sloppy the action was. It was very noticable. This looks like a quality control problem. I notice also the spacing is not uniform and some gaps between the keys are larger. This complaint is becoming more common on the new PX-30 series of Casio DP's. I have a PX-575 and while the keys are noisy (they tend to be clackity), there is little side to side wobble.

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#1486357 - 08/02/10 05:07 AM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: galaxy4t]
Vectistim Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 312
Loc: Reading, UK
With my PX-330 I've finally managed to sort out that going back 'for repair' initially due to two crackly keys, although one other now makes an intermittent clicky sound and another makes a sound like a piece of loose metal banging if I do a fast repetition.

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#1486368 - 08/02/10 05:59 AM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: Vectistim]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2235
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Vectistim
With my PX-330 I've finally managed to sort out that going back 'for repair' initially due to two crackly keys, although one other now makes an intermittent clicky sound and another makes a sound like a piece of loose metal banging if I do a fast repetition.


Hi Vectistim, I didn't quite understand what you wrote. Have you sent back the PX330 and had it repaired?

I ask because I also have a PX330 with three pairs of clacking keys. I have 'fixed' them by inserting a thin plastic shim between the keys, and intend to get it repaired under warranty eventually. The warranty is 3 years so I can wait until a few more keys go clacking.

Despite this I thinks it's a great DP for the money and love playing it.

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#1486374 - 08/02/10 06:26 AM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: spanishbuddha]
Vectistim Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 312
Loc: Reading, UK
After much too-ing and fro-ing I've finally made arrangements for them to collect it and they will then apparently repair it - which I think will require relaying some of the felt stuff (I assume that's what makes the crackly sound) replacing a key (I think its surface isn't stuck well enough to the main body of the key - I think that's why that one makes an occasional noise) and re-afixing whatever it is that's come loose for the other one.

Casio's UK repairs/returns/servicing (whatever you want to call them) don't seem to be all that much on the ball. Coupled with that it doesn't help that they only seem to man their phone lines Mon-Fri 9-5.

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#1486464 - 08/02/10 09:39 AM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: Vectistim]
Gorm Laben Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 79
Loc: Wisconsin
OK, based on the (very helpful) feedback (thanks!) it's still an open question whether this is a design flaw or a quality control issue (or both). I'll be returning it today and get a new one; if it still has issues I suppose I need to consider spending more $$ on a better built brand (even though the sound and feel is great for the A-620 - I can't play with all that clicking and sticking).
_________________________
--- Estonia L190 #7249 ---
My great-grandfather was an opera singer
My grandfather was a pianist
...
We'll see what my kids do

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#1486620 - 08/02/10 01:33 PM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: Gorm Laben]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
This is a design flaw, because it could be easily avoided by proper design and zero series stress testing and usability testing before releasing this into the wild ;-).
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#1486652 - 08/02/10 02:14 PM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: Gorm Laben]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: Steve Deutsch
..
Any thoughts? I don't want to spend more than $2,000, and I want the (otherwise) quality action and sound I felt in the Casio. They sample four times per key, compared to the Arius 161's 3


The Arius 140 uses Yamaha's cheaper "GHS" key action. Yamaha's "GH" is very different than GHS. Yamaha's Arius 160 and P155 use the GH keys The sound inside the P155 is a little better than what's inside the 160. Most people prefer the GHS over Casio. If you can spend $2,000 yu can certainly have a Yamaha with GH keys and their better sound. Look at Yamaha's CP-5. It sells for about $1,800 and is now I think Yamaha' best piano.

But with $2K you can afford a Roland or Kawai and many people like either of these better.

My opinion is the casio owns the sub $1,000 market. But if you can spend $2,000 there is little reason to buy Casio

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#1486715 - 08/02/10 03:31 PM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: ChrisA]
Gorm Laben Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 79
Loc: Wisconsin
Well I went ahead and returned the product to GC. Who were very helpful.

Now I need to rethink - Kawai CA63? Roland 990? I love the feel of the Kawai keys.
_________________________
--- Estonia L190 #7249 ---
My great-grandfather was an opera singer
My grandfather was a pianist
...
We'll see what my kids do

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#1486846 - 08/02/10 07:57 PM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: Gorm Laben]
JoeyIsFunny Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/14/10
Posts: 178
I have a px 130 and while the keys have some side to side movement they never touch each other or catch while playing. The black keys do have an excessive amount of side movement though, but not to the point of making it difficult to play.

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#1487039 - 08/03/10 12:45 AM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: JoeyIsFunny]
Gorm Laben Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 79
Loc: Wisconsin
Well I went ahead and got the Kawai CA63 after demoing it in the shop. A grand more, but I love the touch and action. Much more stable, not a hint of loosiness, the keys don't catch or even hit each other, and the ivory feel is quite nice. I kept going back to it in the shop. The sound is just fine as well.

No offense to the AP620, it's fantastic for the price point, except for the issue with the catching key surfaces. I was sad to have to reconsider but I think in the long run it's a more fulfilling choice.

Plus they'll apply the full purchase price to a grand if I exchange it for one from them in the next 5 years! Gotta love that incentive.
_________________________
--- Estonia L190 #7249 ---
My great-grandfather was an opera singer
My grandfather was a pianist
...
We'll see what my kids do

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#1487048 - 08/03/10 01:12 AM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: Gorm Laben]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8401
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Congrats on your new, new DP. wink

Great incentive from the dealer to upgrade to you a grand too. wink

If you have a moment to take a snap of your new CA63, please feel free to post it in this thread.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1487056 - 08/03/10 01:38 AM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: Kawai James]
Gorm Laben Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 79
Loc: Wisconsin
Happy to! Once I get it - shop says it'll be 7-10 days (argh!) A great opportunity to practice zenmanship - having made a decision then having to wait a week or more for the product.

I have learned that patience is necessary in many aspects of this hobby.

:-)
_________________________
--- Estonia L190 #7249 ---
My great-grandfather was an opera singer
My grandfather was a pianist
...
We'll see what my kids do

Top
#1487361 - 08/03/10 02:38 PM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: JoeyIsFunny]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2235
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: JoeyIsFunny
I have a px 130 and while the keys have some side to side movement they never touch each other or catch while playing. The black keys do have an excessive amount of side movement though, but not to the point of making it difficult to play.


Joey, I don't want you to go looking for a fault that is maybe not really there, but the clicking on some pairs on my Casio only occurs when doing some scales, and not every time, and some chord arpeggios, and not every time. The sideways push of the finger on adjacent keys can elicit the problem and a surprise when it does happen.

Originally Posted By: Vectistim
Casio's UK repairs/returns/servicing (whatever you want to call them) don't seem to be all that much on the ball. Coupled with that it doesn't help that they only seem to man their phone lines Mon-Fri 9-5.


That's not good to hear. I think the first two years of my warranty is through the store, who will deal with me and if necessary Casio. The third year though is AFAIK direct with Casio.

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#1487362 - 08/03/10 02:39 PM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: spanishbuddha]
eweiss Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
I just bought the AP-220 and no problems whatsoever! smile
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#1487541 - 08/03/10 06:35 PM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: eweiss]
Gorm Laben Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 79
Loc: Wisconsin
Yah, the AP220 key mechanism seems a bit different. It's not as hammer-weighted feeling as the 620. Also, I didn't see that issue on the 220 I tried in the store. The 620 keys were definitely looser AND they caught on each other while playing. I would guess it to be a quality control issue, and I happened to catch a bad one.

Thanks for the feedback!
_________________________
--- Estonia L190 #7249 ---
My great-grandfather was an opera singer
My grandfather was a pianist
...
We'll see what my kids do

Top
#1487568 - 08/03/10 07:17 PM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: Gorm Laben]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8401
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Are the keyboard actions for the AP-220 and AP-620 not the same?
I know that the AP-620 features Ivory Touch key surfaces, however the action (and weighted feeling) should be identical between the two models, surely?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1487615 - 08/03/10 08:19 PM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: Kawai James]
Gorm Laben Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 79
Loc: Wisconsin
I don't know the specs. Subjectively, they sure felt different to me.
_________________________
--- Estonia L190 #7249 ---
My great-grandfather was an opera singer
My grandfather was a pianist
...
We'll see what my kids do

Top
#1488484 - 08/05/10 05:19 AM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: Gorm Laben]
Vectistim Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 312
Loc: Reading, UK
I think all the current AP and PX models have the same keyboard system, its just a couple have the ivory style finish.

I get to spend today listening out for the doorbell so my 330 can go back for repair (replacement).

Any bets on how long they'll keep it?

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#1488553 - 08/05/10 09:28 AM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: Vectistim]
Gorm Laben Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 79
Loc: Wisconsin
Yah, you're right, the website says it's the same. Boy, they sure felt different in the action though. I probably just got a dud - scary how variable the keyboards were. I am happy spending the extra grand to get a Kawai.
_________________________
--- Estonia L190 #7249 ---
My great-grandfather was an opera singer
My grandfather was a pianist
...
We'll see what my kids do

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#1489504 - 08/06/10 01:19 PM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: Gorm Laben]
bluebilly Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 418
Loc: England
-
I reported here two years ago that the "wobbly key" phenomenon had manifested itself, back then, in the Privia PX-800. On my recent hunt for a new piano I tried the PX-830 and nothing had changed, same old "Wobbly Keys", it was the deal breaker for me. What a shame, a great piano at a great price spoiled because of the "Wobbly Keys". I bought a Kawai.
-

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#1489721 - 08/06/10 05:28 PM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: bluebilly]
Glenn Treibitz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 541
Loc: Los Angeles/Burbank
For $2199 you can purchase a Roland DP990. This has the Roland escapement action which you should love.
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#1490714 - 08/08/10 06:37 AM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: Vectistim]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2235
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Vectistim
I think all the current AP and PX models have the same keyboard system, its just a couple have the ivory style finish.

I get to spend today listening out for the doorbell so my 330 can go back for repair (replacement).

Any bets on how long they'll keep it?


Hi Vectistim. Please update with progress on repair or replacement as it happens. Thanks.

Was this direct with Casio support or the shop you bought it from?

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#1490952 - 08/08/10 03:33 PM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: spanishbuddha]
Vectistim Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 312
Loc: Reading, UK
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
Originally Posted By: Vectistim
I think all the current AP and PX models have the same keyboard system, its just a couple have the ivory style finish.
I get to spend today listening out for the doorbell so my 330 can go back for repair (replacement).
Any bets on how long they'll keep it?


Hi Vectistim. Please update with progress on repair or replacement as it happens. Thanks.
Was this direct with Casio support or the shop you bought it from?

I'll let you know what happens. It took some tooing and froing between shop (Rimmers/Rocking Rooster) and Casio, not helped by neither of them running their phones out of office hours at all. So it was picked up on Thursday to go back to Casio, doing a parcel trace they received it on Friday. So the chances are they haven't looked at it yet.

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#1491432 - 08/09/10 07:52 AM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: Vectistim]
Vectistim Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 312
Loc: Reading, UK
Just got back in from a rehearsal[1] this morning and there is a letter from Casio confirming receipt and providing login details for a repair tracking website. The letter says normal turnaround is about ten working days (plus postage). Logging into the website it says 'repair completed' but no further details, so presumably someone will contact me soon for its return and then we will see what we shall see.

[1] OK, not a fair comparison but at this rehearsal I was playing a Clavinoa CVP-50 (c. 20 year old model), the piano sound was very tinny - a bit like a shabby pub piano, the keys felt OK, but the sensitivity was all to pot - the volume gradation was very stilted.

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#1491484 - 08/09/10 10:00 AM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: Vectistim]
Vectistim Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 312
Loc: Reading, UK
I'm now told I'm getting it back on Wednesday, so I'll report back then.

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#1493290 - 08/11/10 08:43 AM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: Vectistim]
Vectistim Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 312
Loc: Reading, UK
OK, its just come back, I've run chromatically up the keyboard (without it being turned on) and the defects seem to have gone. The slip that was in the box says it was replaced, but the serial number is the same as it was before so I don't quite know what they've done.

I'll give it a couple of hours of thrashing later and see how it responds.

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#1493408 - 08/11/10 11:47 AM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: Vectistim]
Vectistim Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 312
Loc: Reading, UK
I've now had a bit of a play, whilst they've made the previous problems go away it now has a new set (which suggests they've 'repaired' rather than replaced it).

The B next to the crackly C and C# that I did have is now rather sluggish (as if whatever was making those two crackle is now shoved underneath the B).

The worst new problem is with the G at the bottom of the bass clef. I did a fast arpeggio from a Haydn sonata and received a delayed and _very_ loud G.

So I've just been back on the phone, and presumably will get the delights of another two days at home waiting for the postman.

PS: It makes me wonder if they did any quality control before sticking it back in the post.


Edited by Vectistim (08/11/10 11:48 AM)
Edit Reason: PS added

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#1493504 - 08/11/10 01:50 PM Re: Casio AP620 Design Flaw? [Re: Vectistim]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2235
Loc: UK
Thanks for the feedback. I suspect that not only no quality control but no piano/keyboard players in the support department. Doesn't sound heartening.

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