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#1484345 - 07/30/10 02:41 AM Levels of consciousness at the keyboard
molto_agitato Offline
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Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 162
Loc: Washington State
Playing the piano is often spoken of as a skill, but it seems to me to be a conglomeration of many skills, most of which can probably be divided into subskills in their own right. Stripping away most of the complexities of playing the piano, even the basic tasks that the beginner must perform (getting the correct fingers over the correct notes and playing them for their proper durations, etc.) can be daunting, as can be attested to by many of us who have clear memories of a time when learning to play the piano was a foreign experience.

Piano playing is thus an exercise in multi-tasking, and studies seem to show that when our attention is divided by needing to perform multiple tasks simultaneously, we perform much more poorly than if we were able to devote full attention to one task at a time. Approaching a single task with completely focused concentration can be difficult enough; devoting high levels of concentration on multiple tasks simultaneously is an unlikely proposition. Given the nature of playing a piano, this seems to be quite a dilemma.

I'm curious: do certain aspects of playing the piano eventually become automatic, or at the least, require far lower levels of concentration than would be required by the beginner? If so, are certain skills more likely than others to become candidates for automaticity? For those who have recently started learning to play the piano as well those who have been playing for years, I ask, what has become "natural" for you at the keyboard? What still requires the utmost concentration?

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#1484365 - 07/30/10 03:22 AM Re: Levels of consciousness at the keyboard [Re: molto_agitato]
tangleweeds Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 11 2012


Registered: 12/21/08
Posts: 745
Loc: Portlandia
Hands together playing used to be really, really hard for me. I could do it, but imprinting the sequence of events on my ill-coordinated fingers was laborious. I really needed to learn each hand's part by itself before I could begin to interweave them.

But I've found is that I seem to have developed an (unreliable) ability to run a separate train of thought for each hand, while also feeling the flow of the whole. When sight reading I often get sufficiently puzzled in one hand to forget & thus glitch the other, but now for measures at a stretch I can now have balanced trains of thought running for each hand/clef.

It's been very satisfying to find myself semi-sightreading (let's call it recreationally stumbling through wink ) material at the level that once took a week or more of work to play though hands together.
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#1484389 - 07/30/10 04:17 AM Re: Levels of consciousness at the keyboard [Re: tangleweeds]
Nogueira Offline
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Registered: 07/22/10
Posts: 26
Loc: Barcelona
That's totally true. Playing the piano is a multi-task action, it is difficult, envolves different senses (like other instruments, the ear, the touch, and also the sight), envolves language and mathematical skills, and also playing the piano produces emotions and moods. Almost all the brain is in action.

So, this activity is very hard for our brain, and the fact is that we don't make the pieces sound the same when it's the first time that we take a look on them than when we have practised them a lot.
We memorize the pieces in different ways, we memorize the notes and the melodies, but there is also a muscle memory, for the movement of the fingers and the arms, that's how we automate the movements without thinking every note of the piece, and how we free our mind to later improve the performance.
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#1484412 - 07/30/10 05:46 AM Re: Levels of consciousness at the keyboard [Re: Nogueira]
CarlosCC Offline
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Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 436
Loc: Lisboa, Portugal
I honestly never had trouble playing with both hands. In my case I think it is harder to play both hands separately and then do the exercise together.
I think the melody is the trick, because if you like the melody then the whole learning process is facilitated. I found it interesting that saying that when you play - piano in our case - all the brain works. Perhaps that is why it is so wonderful.
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#1484433 - 07/30/10 07:15 AM Re: Levels of consciousness at the keyboard [Re: molto_agitato]
timmyab Offline
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Registered: 04/15/08
Posts: 311
Loc: Bristol, UK
For me the piano has been a never ending procession of difficulties which eventually disappear only to be replaced by others.Two of the biggest hurdles for me as a beginner were sight reading and playing hands together.These two things alone were more than my brain could cope with.Nowadays my conscious mind is dealing more with voicing and dynamics.If I ever get the hang of that no doubt something else will come along.

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#1484483 - 07/30/10 09:35 AM Re: Levels of consciousness at the keyboard [Re: timmyab]
Stanza Offline
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Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 1406
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
It is like driving a car. A lot will become automatic in time. Probably for me the biggest difficulty is leaps when playing from the score. Looking to find the key then back to the page to find my place can cause disruption.

Also counting is always important. When you are first learning a piece to gain rhythmic accuracy, and then later to maintain a proper tempo, and "stay in the moment". Once I have a piece pretty well learned, I tend to look too far ahead and stumble.
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#1484486 - 07/30/10 09:38 AM Re: Levels of consciousness at the keyboard [Re: Stanza]
CarlosCC Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 436
Loc: Lisboa, Portugal
Originally Posted By: Stanza
It is like driving a car.

That's exactly what I say to my friends!
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#1484547 - 07/30/10 11:18 AM Re: Levels of consciousness at the keyboard [Re: CarlosCC]
packa Offline
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Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1274
Loc: Dallas, TX
I wouldn't call it multi-tasking. To me, it's more like integrating a bunch of subtasks into a single overall task. Like driving a car, or making a golf swing. As you get better, you operate at higher and higher levels in the "integration hierarchy".
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#1484761 - 07/30/10 04:32 PM Re: Levels of consciousness at the keyboard [Re: packa]
tangleweeds Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 11 2012


Registered: 12/21/08
Posts: 745
Loc: Portlandia
When I said to a talented multi-instrumentalist friend of mine that I was learning to play piano, she commented, "Piano tickles my brain!" I totally agreed, and I think this multi-tasking is why it tickles.

My problem is that it doesn't come easily for me to multi-task -- my strength is my ability to intensively focus on one thing at a time. So I think I harness this by using that focus to wear away at the unfamiliarity of each of these still-pretty-new-to-me piano skills. They start out needing lots of front-burner attention to get me used to them, but by applying that focused attention, I increase the degree to which that skill can function in the background, when it comes time bring all my skills together to make music.
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#1485042 - 07/31/10 05:12 AM Re: Levels of consciousness at the keyboard [Re: tangleweeds]
EJR Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 813
Loc: Bristol, UK
<<For those who have recently started learning to play the piano as well those who have been playing for years, I ask, what has become "natural" for you at the keyboard? What still requires the utmost concentration?>>

I think there's two distinct groups of activities here:

"Practicing": feels like hard work. It should be, since the aim is to work to a plan on things I can't do... whether technique or pieces. In my current main piece the syncopation and polyrhythms are doing my head in and do not feel "natural", but there are moments when it "gels" etc Clearly the aim is to automate separate sets of elemental tasks into larger functional chunks (whether making a scale automatic or a complex finger motion in a difficult phrase of a single bar in a piece)...

"Performing": this should feel natural (other than the anxiety of making a misstake). I find that pieces I've "mastered" do feel quite natural to play - I just wish there were more of them!


Edited by EJR (07/31/10 05:13 AM)
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#1487656 - 08/03/10 09:30 PM Re: Levels of consciousness at the keyboard [Re: EJR]
tangleweeds Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 11 2012


Registered: 12/21/08
Posts: 745
Loc: Portlandia
[WARNING!] Just skip this post if you hate long philosophical rambles! I've found myself mulling these ideas over for the last few days. I read the quote below, and idly asked, "Now why doesn't my time at the piano feel like work anymore?" And I felt like it had something to do with states of consciousness. So here's my ramble...

Originally Posted By: EJR
"Practicing": feels like hard work. It should be, since the aim is to work to a plan on things I can't do...

[note to EJR -- I'm actually interested in and respectful of how you structure your practice, and I'm not trying to pick on you in any way. This just inspred me to play a little devil's advocate... please take me with a grain of salt smile )

So here's my philosophical digression: Should practicing really feel like hard work? I find that my most productive practicing doesn't -- instead, I'm fully engaged in the present moment, unaware of how long I've been working, or of any sensation that what I'm doing is "hard". There is a sensation of challenge, but it's a pleasurable one, of creatively finding strategies to address obstacles to the flow of what I'm trying to play/learn/do.

For me, music is about flow, and getting into a "flow state", whatever that means -- I do know it when I feel it. I guess it's a state in which the many facets of making music integrate into a shifting but balanced whole (for lack better words springing readily to mind). My practice consists of finding what obstructs that sense of flow, isolating these issues as best I can, and working on them in such a way as to make them flow more easily for me. This generally consists of simplifying the problem areas to where I can teach things to flow, and then gradually increasing the difficulty while retaining that sense of flow. There is a distinctive sensation of pleasure and absorption (and notable progress) when I have found the precise threshold at which I am productively extending my capabilities. Once again, I am in a flow state, and I see/feel myself extending the range of activities I am able to perform within that flow.

This reminds me of something I read in _Effortless Mastery_, a book which I didn't actually click all that well with at the time, but this one bit stuck. He talked about extending the range of material which you can play with a sense of effortless mastery and presence within the music, rather than attempting pyrotechnics which you are not really able to pull off within your zone. I'm probably paraphrasing very badly here, because I read the book a long time ago and promptly gave it back to the library, but this idea has proved itself more & more true to me as I've progressed in my musical journey. Working within my "zone" is far more productive than banging my head against things which are beyond me.

Maybe the idea that I'm struggling toward here is that just as there is a distinct state of consciousness from which I play music much better, there is also a distinct state of consciousness in which I learn much better. And there is a kinship between these two states, in that if I can get into a flow state with what I'm learning, I'm more likely to be able to call upon that newly acquired skill/knowledge within the flow state I get into when I'm successfully making music.

I am being introspective of my learning process these days, because, at first periodically, and then with increasing consistency, I've been finding myself working more and more within my zone during my musical practice time. Only my old PX-120 knows how much time I have spent dutifully warming the bench and plugging away, with no inspiration and to little avail, just because I promised myself that I would do daily. It's altogether a tedious state of consciousness to endure, and I'd really rather avoid it. So while this happy phase is ongoing, I'm trying to "be a scientist", and observe and note down the the attitudes and approaches that seem to be contributing to it.
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#1488086 - 08/04/10 02:28 PM Re: Levels of consciousness at the keyboard [Re: tangleweeds]
JimF Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/09
Posts: 858
Loc: south florida
Quote:
Only my old PX-120 knows how much time I have spent dutifully warming the bench and plugging away, with no inspiration and to little avail, just because I promised myself that I would do daily. It's altogether a tedious state of consciousness to endure, and I'd really rather avoid it.


+1 thumb

Good post Tangleweeds. Alas, I wish the quoted part didn't resonate quite so well, as when I do find the alternative focused state you describe I often finish by muttering "ok, good work" although it didn't seem like work at all.
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#1488506 - 08/05/10 07:37 AM Re: Levels of consciousness at the keyboard [Re: tangleweeds]
EJR Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 813
Loc: Bristol, UK
Originally Posted By: tangleweeds
[WARNING!] Just skip this post if you hate long philosophical rambles! I've found myself mulling these ideas over for the last few days. I read the quote below, and idly asked, "Now why doesn't my time at the piano feel like work anymore?" And I felt like it had something to do with states of consciousness. So here's my ramble...

Originally Posted By: EJR
"Practicing": feels like hard work. It should be, since the aim is to work to a plan on things I can't do...

[note to EJR -- I'm actually interested in and respectful of how you structure your practice, and I'm not trying to pick on you in any way. This just inspred me to play a little devil's advocate... please take me with a grain of salt smile )

So here's my philosophical digression:....



Tangleweeds,

What a thoughtful reply! I actually agree with nearly all of what you've said.

Perhaps it's what I subjectively label "hard work" does not mean that it is not "pleasurable" or "fun" or that I don't get into the "flow" or zone....

For example. I enjoy hill walking. I like doing a 3000 foot ascent. I love the view from the top. It feels meditative, both the getting there and the view, it also gives time for thoughtful contemplation. But it's still very hard work.
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#1488844 - 08/05/10 05:06 PM Re: Levels of consciousness at the keyboard [Re: EJR]
tangleweeds Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 11 2012


Registered: 12/21/08
Posts: 745
Loc: Portlandia
Thanks for the nice reply. It does all depend on one's definition of work. I guess I think of "work" as tedious required tasks that drain my energy, and "play" as anything that raises and renews my energy levels. Given that bias, I've found the magical key to music (and many other life activities) is the alchemical transformation of "work" into "play". For me it seems to have something to do with being present where I really am.

If I am grinding my way up an endless series of switchbacks, I find that it's best if I either put all my will and energy into going uphill and enjoy the aerobic sensation, or else stop and appreciate the view for a while and catch my breath. What I need personally to avoid is when I get into a state of martyred trudging ever upward, so that my experience becomes one of dis-appreciation of where I am. That's when it seems like work instead of play.
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#1488907 - 08/05/10 06:34 PM Re: Levels of consciousness at the keyboard [Re: molto_agitato]
gooddog Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 3920
Loc: Seattle area, WA
Originally Posted By: tangleweeds
For me, music is about flow, and getting into a "flow state", whatever that means -- I do know it when I feel it. I guess it's a state in which the many facets of making music integrate into a shifting but balanced whole (for lack better words springing readily to mind). My practice consists of finding what obstructs that sense of flow, isolating these issues as best I can, and working on them in such a way as to make them flow more easily for me. This generally consists of simplifying the problem areas to where I can teach things to flow, and then gradually increasing the difficulty while retaining that sense of flow. There is a distinctive sensation of pleasure and absorption (and notable progress) when I have found the precise threshold at which I am productively extending my capabilities. Once again, I am in a flow state, and I see/feel myself extending the range of activities I am able to perform within that flow.
thumbI love what you said!

.
Originally Posted By: molto_agitato
I'm curious: do certain aspects of playing the piano eventually become automatic, or at the least, require far lower levels of concentration than would be required by the beginner? If so, are certain skills more likely than others to become candidates for automaticity? For those who have recently started learning to play the piano as well those who have been playing for years, I ask, what has become "natural" for you at the keyboard? What still requires the utmost concentration?
I've been playing for many decades. Here are some of the tasks I struggled with when I was beginning which are now automatic: I simultaneously translate multiple written notes directly from the score to their keyboard position, without thinking about their names. For the most part, I sightread hands together without thinking about it and without looking at the keyboard. I don't have perfect pitch but I can usually identify mistakes when I sightread (a difference between what the score says and what I have just played.) I only have to count difficult passages. Pedalling is pretty automatic but I do take the time to check myself.

What requires the utmost concentration? Articulation, dynamics, keeping a steady beat, expression.
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#1488912 - 08/05/10 06:42 PM Re: Levels of consciousness at the keyboard [Re: tangleweeds]
SAnnM AB-2001 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 2018
Loc: Canada
Most of my practices go by way too fast. I never practice because I feel that I have to, although some are definitely more productive. It's those practices where I am determined to focus on only a few measures and not try to play through my pieces that seem to have the best results - this post is a great reminder of that!! After 8 years....the one thing that seems fairly automatic to me now is pedaling (my teacher may say 'too automatic').

Reading both staves at once is automatic mostly but that doesn't mean my sightreading is fluent, just that I see everything at once.... it still takes way to long to get the message to my hands crazy...... but I find it easier to play (albeit slowly) with both hands than separately (unless working out fingering or very tricky passages).
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