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#1495187 - 08/13/10 12:49 PM Buying a piano--question about prices
mathmom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 27
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
Hi! I am new here and have a question for you all. I am shopping for a grand (or baby grand) for my home. My budget is $10K-$15K and I am looking at new or used. I went to the Kawai dealer yesterday and was given what I think is a great quote for a new RX-2 BLAK. Here is my question: the dealer said that I needed to buy it soon because prices are probably going up in September. Something about the yen/dollar ratio and that these companies keep raising prices on them. Is this true? Or is this a tactic to make a quick sale? He said it would be going up about $1000 after September. Are piano prices really going up right now? I would think they would be holding steady, or falling, given the economy. Thanks for your input.

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#1495220 - 08/13/10 01:27 PM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: mathmom]
Mark... Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 4381
Loc: Jersey Shore
Don't let him pressure you. Believe when I say you can come in with a check for the original price and still get it later. It's a buyers market. Plus don't rush because of a sale, I did and still regret it. There are a million pianos out there, take your time and enjoy the search.

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#1495227 - 08/13/10 01:36 PM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: mathmom]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7302
Loc: torrance, CA
I can't tell you the seller's motivation for informing you of a likely price increase. It's not unheard of for retailers to warn of impending price increases to provide a sales enema. smile

OTOH, the yen/USD exchange rate is just awful from the USD side of the fence..historic lows really. If the dealer can sell you a new RX2 Blak within your stated budget, you are hardly being taken advantage of.

Check Piano Buyer (link in the left column) to see where your price stands in relation to typical market price.

Price increases can come at any time. If they are wholesale price increases to the dealer, they mean more than just taking the air pump to the MSRP.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1495236 - 08/13/10 01:50 PM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: turandot]
gnuboi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 2349
Loc: USA
There is no real urgency but it is still a great piano. Maybe you can spin the urgency in your favor and get a bigger discount "right now, today!"...


Edited by gnuboi (08/13/10 01:51 PM)

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#1495262 - 08/13/10 02:48 PM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: gnuboi]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2772
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Prices do go up. Increases used to be pretty predictable but not any more. A crappy economy doesn't make COSTS go down. PRICES already have - that's why so many dealers have shrunk or are already gone. You're getting good prices. If you like the piano, buy it, if not, keep shopping. There are other similarly good choices.

I don't know if there is some impending September increase from Kawai, however is there some reason you'd rather wait than enjoy the piano now? I think that is the best reason to buy. The piano doesn't look nearly as good in their showroom as it will in your home.
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PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
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#1495328 - 08/13/10 04:52 PM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: turandot]
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2012
Loc: Belgium
Quote:
If the dealer can sell you a new RX2 Blak within your stated budget, you are hardly being taken advantage of.


If a new RX-2 Blak is offered at $ 15k, which means 45% below Fine's SMP or even 55% below the MSRP this means the whole US pricing structure is a jungle. But this is hardly anything new.

schwammerl.

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#1495415 - 08/13/10 06:47 PM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: schwammerl]
AlphaTerminus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 549
Loc: Iowa, USA
I was told the same thing about Yamaha. I have news for Yamaha. You can arbitrarily raise prices as much as you wish. Your price increase this year is so absurd and so not in-tune with economic reality that pretty soon street prices will by 75% off MSRP. It's ridiculous and no other industry is emulating what the "higher end" piano industry is doing right now.

I was insulted when I found out how much the MSRPs of things like the C6 and C7 went up this year. It's a joke.

When I trade up to a bigger grand in a few years I'll just get a rebuilt piano or buy a 7 foot Chinese make, but I'll never pay $50,000 for a piece of 6-7 foot Asian wood.
I can charge $200 for a hamburger... people will buy one elsewhere or offer me $2 and I can take it or leave it.


Edited by AlphaTerminus (08/13/10 06:48 PM)
_________________________
Lessons since September 2009
Yamaha C6

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#1495427 - 08/13/10 07:01 PM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: schwammerl]
gnuboi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 2349
Loc: USA
Yes I don't quite understand Yamaha's "strategy" either.

Originally Posted By: schwammerl
the whole US pricing structure is a jungle


Kawai is following Yamaha's lead. On paper at least.

I'd recommend shoppers to find competitive pricing (same brands or otherwise) that are well-grounded in facts and circumstances when negotiating. Buyers don't just pay the dealers' initial offers, right? smile

Anyhow mathmom has a good deal as it is.

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#1495459 - 08/13/10 07:47 PM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: gnuboi]
J_D Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/10/10
Posts: 304
Loc: Texas, USA
Make sure you and your daughter are happy with the sound, feel etc... At least listen and try two or three other brands. Don't buy the first piano you evaluate until you have looked at others. Kawai is a great brand, so don't get me wrong. Even if the prices do go up by the end of September, you have some time to carefully make this important decision.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
_________________________
J.D.
Hailun 178

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#1495478 - 08/13/10 08:05 PM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: AlphaTerminus]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7302
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: AlphaTerminus
I was told the same thing about Yamaha. I have news for Yamaha. You can arbitrarily raise prices as much as you wish. Your price increase this year is so absurd and so not in-tune with economic reality that pretty soon street prices will by 75% off MSRP. It's ridiculous and no other industry is emulating what the "higher end" piano industry is doing right now.

I was insulted when I found out how much the MSRPs of things like the C6 and C7 went up this year. It's a joke.

When I trade up to a bigger grand in a few years I'll just get a rebuilt piano or buy a 7 foot Chinese make, but I'll never pay $50,000 for a piece of 6-7 foot Asian wood.
I can charge $200 for a hamburger... people will buy one elsewhere or offer me $2 and I can take it or leave it.


yadayadayada

Here's a little piece of "economic reality". In August of 2007, a US dollar bought 121 Japanese yen. Now it buys 86 Japanese yen. China is in a position to benefit from subsidizing the US dollar since it is the principal buyer of US debt. Japan is not and is not. China's skilled labor costs are quite low. Japan's are among the highest in the world.

If you don't like a Yamaha or Kawai dealer's asking price for "a piece of Asian wood", don't buy it, but don't think there's some sort of conspiracy to gouge you.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1495602 - 08/14/10 12:58 AM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: turandot]
gnuboi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 2349
Loc: USA
I don't feel there's a conspiracy... too many choices in this buyer's market to be fixing prices. It's just unfortunate for consumers, and probably unfortunate for Yamaha and Kawai as well. At higher prices people are going to move toward Estonia, Schimmel, Walter, etc. If buyers don't know about those brands, then they would "settle" for Korean or Chinese brands.


Edited by gnuboi (08/14/10 12:59 AM)

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#1495772 - 08/14/10 10:53 AM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: gnuboi]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7302
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: gnuboi
I don't feel there's a conspiracy... too many choices in this buyer's market to be fixing prices. It's just unfortunate for consumers, and probably unfortunate for Yamaha and Kawai as well. At higher prices people are going to move toward Estonia, Schimmel, Walter, etc. If buyers don't know about those brands, then they would "settle" for Korean or Chinese brands.


The reason that "it's a buyer's market" is that there aren't many buyers. I suppose you're right that if people read here and come across enough of the pride-of-ownership exhortations of Estonia, Schimmel, and Walter owners, they may become interested in those brands, but they have to be able to find them. Even if they do, the actual selling prices of those pianos might still be significantly higher than the actual selling prices of Yamaha and Kawai. Bear in mind the OP's stated budget and the piano that (s)he's considering.

You may also be right on people settling for something at a lower price. That's why Yamaha and Kawai have shifted a lot of production to China or Indonesia. Yamaha will do whatever it needs to do with budget lines, offshore production, and engineered cost savings to meet North American shopper's price expectations. It will also use its strength in digital pianos to offset the growing lack of interest in acoustic pianos here. Kawai will follow suit as best it can. However, the main marketing focus for acoustic pianos will turn (and is turning) to markets where there are greener pastures to graze, where it's not "a buyer's market".

Both Yamaha and Kawai have problems in the home market as well. Twenty years of rotten economic news since the bubble burst have made a new piano purchase and piano lessons a tougher sell to parents. Taking production overseas means taking jobs overseas. In terms of Japanese core cultural values, this is a real no-no.

I disagree with the sentiment here that the OP should sample tons of pianos before deciding. If (s)he really likes that Kawai RX2, she could simply buy it, bid adieu to the constant puerile PW bickering about X being better than Y, Z being the best of all, etc., and simply enjoy making music on a fine piano with a good name, good resale value, consistent build quality, and great customer support.

_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1495774 - 08/14/10 10:59 AM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: turandot]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
I can't believe how cheap those RX-2 BLAKs are selling for in America.
Sounds like a great deal on a great piano to me.

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#1495795 - 08/14/10 11:42 AM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: turandot]
Beacon Chris Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 465
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: turandot
Originally Posted By: AlphaTerminus
I was told the same thing about Yamaha. I have news for Yamaha. You can arbitrarily raise prices as much as you wish. Your price increase this year is so absurd and so not in-tune with economic reality that pretty soon street prices will by 75% off MSRP. It's ridiculous and no other industry is emulating what the "higher end" piano industry is doing right now.

I was insulted when I found out how much the MSRPs of things like the C6 and C7 went up this year. It's a joke.

When I trade up to a bigger grand in a few years I'll just get a rebuilt piano or buy a 7 foot Chinese make, but I'll never pay $50,000 for a piece of 6-7 foot Asian wood.
I can charge $200 for a hamburger... people will buy one elsewhere or offer me $2 and I can take it or leave it.


yadayadayada

Here's a little piece of "economic reality". In August of 2007, a US dollar bought 121 Japanese yen. Now it buys 86 Japanese yen. China is in a position to benefit from subsidizing the US dollar since it is the principal buyer of US debt. Japan is not and is not. China's skilled labor costs are quite low. Japan's are among the highest in the world.

If you don't like a Yamaha or Kawai dealer's asking price for "a piece of Asian wood", don't buy it, but don't think there's some sort of conspiracy to gouge you.



Add to that a distribution company that has a somewhat fixed overhead with a significantly shrunken consumer base and it all adds up to wholesale price increases and less flexibility on the part of manufacturers. In the case of the Blak piano in question, the good news is that Kawai has made improvements in the product with the price increase. Hopefully customers feel that the improvements can offset the additional cost.

I think we can all agree that some salesmen make stuff up - unfortunately that's not going to change. What does ring true to me in this situation, however, is that price increases are a sign of the times squeezing both dealer and consumer.
_________________________
Musician, Singer, Teacher, Humorist, Dad...

“I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment.” - Woody Allen

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#1495801 - 08/14/10 11:50 AM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: theJourney]
M.O.P. Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 989
Loc: Ocala, Florida
OP hasn't confirmed the RX2 BLAK price she was quoted as yet - posters are assuming it was quoted in the stated budget. OP stated what the budget was, and then went on to say she got what she believed was "a great quote" for the RX2 BLAK. Did not mention specifc $ amount for this particular piano.

Perhaps the new forum member will check back in on this thread that she started and clear up the question before everyone gets all out of whack & takes the jump off the cliff.
_________________________
Nancy Fanzlaw
Seamstress for the Band

www.FortePianoGallery.com
Forte' Blog - Technical Tuesdays
Forte' on Facebook

"The piano was God's gift to music." Lou Mason


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#1495815 - 08/14/10 12:16 PM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: M.O.P.]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7302
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: M.O.P.
Perhaps the new forum member will check back in on this thread that she started and clear up the question before everyone gets all out of whack & takes the jump off the cliff.


Yes indeed. The i's are not crossed and the t's are not dotted.

Should mathmom retire from the thread, her opening post might be viewed in a way that no mom would like. grin

No worries about you Nancy. You're much too even-tempered to jump off a cliff. Don't know about Chris though. Opera singers are trained to be overly dramatic. He might just go for the grand gesture.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1495824 - 08/14/10 12:25 PM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: turandot]
M.O.P. Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 989
Loc: Ocala, Florida
Maybe we should tie a figurative rope to Chris...just in case.
_________________________
Nancy Fanzlaw
Seamstress for the Band

www.FortePianoGallery.com
Forte' Blog - Technical Tuesdays
Forte' on Facebook

"The piano was God's gift to music." Lou Mason


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#1495866 - 08/14/10 01:41 PM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: turandot]
Beacon Chris Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 465
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: turandot
Originally Posted By: M.O.P.
Perhaps the new forum member will check back in on this thread that she started and clear up the question before everyone gets all out of whack & takes the jump off the cliff.


Yes indeed. The i's are not crossed and the t's are not dotted.

Should mathmom retire from the thread, her opening post might be viewed in a way that no mom would like. grin

No worries about you Nancy. You're much too even-tempered to jump off a cliff. Don't know about Chris though. Opera singers are trained to be overly dramatic. He might just go for the grand gesture.



Ah, mathmom... avanti a Dio!!!!

(get it, Turandot?)

If you don't maybe you know "uccisi"? grin
_________________________
Musician, Singer, Teacher, Humorist, Dad...

“I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment.” - Woody Allen

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#1495886 - 08/14/10 02:17 PM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: Beacon Chris]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7302
Loc: torrance, CA
I'm confused. Are you talking Manon L'Escaut or Tosca? Either way, unless you've gotten yourself neutered, it might be a bit out of your singing range.

"Uccisi"? I doubt it. Just keep your sense of humor and you'll be fine.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1495894 - 08/14/10 02:34 PM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: turandot]
Beacon Chris Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 465
Loc: Idaho
ah, Tosca... Turandot... no, not neutered yet... although I see these big countertenor fees these days and it sort of makes me think...
_________________________
Musician, Singer, Teacher, Humorist, Dad...

“I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment.” - Woody Allen

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#1496025 - 08/14/10 06:52 PM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: mathmom]
mathmom Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 27
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
Hey, all! Thanks for some of the insight you helped with. I think part of my problem is that I have a hard time buying something fast. I have been shopping for my piano for almost a year now, so no one really would accuse me of rushing into things. I've shopped around, tried different brands. It's just a lot of money.

The price on the piano is $15,995. I'm not really done negotiating, but the dealer stated that as the price he could get me. It would push my budget quite a bit after taxes but it sounded like a good price on the RX-2, and I have been thinking that I would only be able to afford a used one in my price range. I can "afford" the quoted price, just not sure if I wanted to go quite that high.

I am a mom to five kids--five future musicians! My oldest (12) plays the violin and I enjoy so much being able to accompany her on her violin solos, or play piano/violin duets. My next two (ages 10 and 7) both play the piano. The younger two will when they can sit still a little longer. Right now I have a very old and out of tune console to play on--nothing inspiring about that! So, this (future) piano would get a lot of use for our family. I want something that will perform well for many years. So, that's a little about me. Thanks!

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#1496044 - 08/14/10 07:30 PM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: mathmom]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7302
Loc: torrance, CA
Mathmom,

Two kinds of math here.

On the piano price, unless there's some funny stuf (damaged goods, sideways deal with no factory warranty, short-term rental to a maximum security penitentiary) the price per se is a no-brainer.

The other math is the stretch to make it work with a family of five kids. Only you can do that math.

I guess the pain of the stretch would be measured against how much you and your playing kids like this particular piano. You've been shopping a while. How does this piano stack up against all the others you've tried out?
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1496054 - 08/14/10 07:56 PM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: turandot]
crogersrx Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 712
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Finding and affording the "perfect" piano is such a wearisome, but thrilling process. I have a love/hate relationship with my piano on at least a quarterly basis. I have a LOVE/LOVE relationship with my piano teacher's Yamaha concert grand, and another friend's Bosendorfer 225. But, I only get to play those two pianos about once a week or so... doubtless, I would start having fickle moments with those if I had them every day.

If the OP and her kids really like the Kawai RX2 Blak, they should jump on it. The price, as others have said, is a no brainer. And, the improvement over an old worn out console piano will be immense!
_________________________
Cary Rogers, PharmD
San Francisco, CA
1887 Knabe 6'4" (Rebuilt)

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#1496236 - 08/15/10 01:03 AM Re: Buying a piano--question about prices [Re: turandot]
gnuboi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 2349
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: turandot

I disagree with the sentiment here that the OP should sample tons of pianos before deciding. If (s)he really likes that Kawai RX2, she could simply buy it, bid adieu to the constant puerile PW bickering about X being better than Y, Z being the best of all, etc., and simply enjoy making music on a fine piano with a good name, good resale value, consistent build quality, and great customer support.


I spent 1 week piano shopping. That was a few months ago and since then I've been reading this PWPF learning about pianos I never tried. I knew I wanted a piano. I found what I liked. I thought about the pricing and decided it was a good deal. So yea, I agree with turandot here. I'm still very satisfied with the instrument. If only I could play more than 10 minutes a day, sigh.

In fact I got a Kawai too so I think mathmom should totally just go for it smile The price (now that we got it out of her) is totally awesome especially for a BLAK. I had thought only the non-BLAK remaining stock were going through firesales.


Edited by gnuboi (08/15/10 01:05 AM)

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