Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Gabriela Montero

Sorry, but your lack of ability doesn't translate into me being impressed with what she does. And whether I can or can't improvise doesn't have any bearing on the matter.

I'm much more impressed with the organists who have to improvise fugues in their competitions. Also, I once heard a composer improvise a full-fledged sonata movement on notes given from the audience and it actually was of the kind of complexity that astonished, unlike Montero's quite modest achievements.

No need for an apology, since I'm not trying to convince you as such. She's considerably talented whether we think so, or not (dial up Ms. Argerich and ask her what she thinks).

Now to hear someone improvise as you did with this composer/sonata movement would be truly interesting. Was the improvisation truly in sonata form, or was that what he, or the audience decided to label it? I only ask, because I'm not sure actually composing something like a sonata movement on the spot is the same as improvising on the spot.

Would be very interesting if we start to do the same. Give each other themes and some time (of course it cannot be done in real time) to bring up something.

If anyone is up to it I'd like to try and see whateter I (we) can do in terms of creativity. I'm thinking about a ludic activity, not some sort of competition... anybody?

Yeah, I know that Argerich said she was impressed. I am glad she liked what she heard, but you know, that just makes me wonder about Argerich's taste and discrimination, rather than change my opinion of Montero's improvisations.

Yes, the composer's improvisation was really in sonata form, although in a modern dissonant style that didn't rely on tonal cadences for structural marks. He asked for people in the audience to name a few notes. He scribbled them onto a large paper sheet, and then quickly came up with a secondary theme derived from the first motif, which he also wrote down. Then he just sat down, collected his thoughts for about 30 seconds, and dove right into an improvised exposition, and about five minutes later, was finished.

I don't understand your distinction between "composing on the spot" and "improvising on the spot". To me, improvisation is composing, regardless of whether there is a predetermined formal outline or not (if that's the issue - I can't tell).

BTW, Rzewski also improvises on stage (much more interestingly than Montero, IMO), and asks for the pianist to do some improvisation in his "Variations on 'The People United'".

Sounds interesting if enough people here would participate - I might attempt to do it if at least 4 or 5 others are willing to make fools of themselves along with me. And if it is after the "Unsung Heroes" e-cital.

Maybe everyone could work from the same theme/motif/series of notes. It could perhaps be something everybody knows, like the first eight notes of Beethoven's 5th symphony, or the first phrase of "Fur Elise". Or it could be some random series of notes, on the other hand.

To make it simple, you could just start a thread in the Members Recordings area and people could upload there.

I'm in! Sounds fun.

-J

Just Another P, I play jazz and I agree with your thought on improvisation. In fact, most of jazz improv is based on chords and scales that we have worked out before.

It's like when we speak English, we are saying it on the spot, but using words that we know and make sense.

"Apple bird fly can't dog sit over and." Now that was just a random sentence made up, it was "free improv" if you will, but made no sense.

Same with any improvised music. You aren't going to play a tune that changes keys every 2 bars and make it sound good, because no music is like that. Nor play some weird chord progressions like 5 major 7th chords in row followed by 5 dominant alt and then end on a minor. There's a reason why 2-5-1 is the foundation for jazz and nothing else.


Chick Corea wrote an article called "The myth of improvisation", where he said we are playing the things we know, just in a new way.

Most melodies are based on either the major or minor scale, or a combination. I could play something completely chromatic, but it would sound horrible, because that's not the structure of music. Or I could play some weird tune where I only used a a perfect 4th or 5th interval. IT wouldn't sound that great.


If you listen to all the great jazz guys, Coltrane, Jarrett, Bill Evans, Herbie, Miles, you can tell they regurgitate certain patterns and lines in their improvs. It's just natural, like when you talk you have certain favourite words or catch-phrases.

There's a jazz pianist called Chris Donnelly, who's from Toronto too and he writes about this in his blog:

http://www.chrisdonnellymusic.com/Blog/Blog.php/reflections-on-solo-piano


Basically, improvisation is much more heavily prepared beforehand than people realize.

Interesting hearing how your jazz friends have almost a "snobbish" attitude towards improv. I haven't seen it as much myself.

The snob attitude was encountered on this forum in the forms of disciple1 and bjones, if any of you remember....

I agree with what you've said, Wizard. However, in the method of improvisation which I study (yes, there is a method) we try to move away from preconceptualized motoric patterns as much as possible. And it's NOT easy to do that. Not when you've been perposely ingraining motoric patterns into your brain for ten or twenty years...

But yeah the improv vs reciting thing..... it's like stand up comedy vs. shakespeare comedy. Both can be awesome. Both can suck. Depends who's involved.

I understand why jazz musicians value improv so much-it was very central to the development of jazz. Before bebop, a lot of jazz pretty much sucked. Big band and dixieland, anyone?

ah i remember bjones, i think people were saying if he was the same guy as disciple1.

Tell me more about your method of improv. I learned it on the fly, just listening to alot of records and piecing things together. No real rhyme or method, but more a pick and choose.

I know what you mean about the motoric patterns. If you've played the same scale 1000's of times, like you would in classical exercises, the fingers automatically go to what they know. You almost have to unlearn things.

The battle is hearing the sound in your mind first, but it's hard when you want to do fast runs like in jazz where literally the fingers will take over.

yes, the battle is in hearing the sound in your mind and being able to produce it with the body.

I don't ever practice regular scales anymore. Complete waste of time, imo. The only scale practice I do is improvising scales and modes. Much better than enforcing the same old same old patterns.

The method I study was developed by the teacher with whom I study improvisation. He is the scariest pianist I have ever seen. He can play anything, absolutely anything. He can improvise multiple-voice polyphony in any style, in any tempo. He has the smallest hands of any pianist I know, yet he can play and hold down the interval from A to F# with only his fourth and fifth fingers. Scary scary man.

JAP, what is your scary teacher's name, and does he have any recordings out there that we could hear?

Elene

pm sent

So, lets do it!

I'm not thinking about using nothing known, but themes given by ourselfes to each other. We could set some minial rules, like a small phrase, or even two different phrases to be connected some how into at least 2 minutes improvisation.

This is what I tought about it. One or two small phrases (or even motifs), and two minutes improv minumum.

What you think?

Battle? I hope not. Improv should be enjoyable. But I take a more 'eastern' approach on this subject. I don't 'try' and create something. I allow the music to lead the way. Or should I say, I try and get out of my own way when playing.

...perhaps we want to play MORE than the chord of I and the chord of iii....

More? What else is there? You'd be surprised what you can create with G Major and B minor.

Sorry dude, you seem like a really nice guy, and this isn't the place for me to bitch about new-age music. It hurts my soul DEEPLY that a hack like George Winston can sell tickets, but it's not your fault, and I shouldn't take out my anger on you.

No worries mate. What style do you play?

sent you a pm.