Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

Trying Something New with Search
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
94 registered (alex7121, ando, AndyP, anamnesis, 36251, Al LaPorte, 25 invisible), 1032 Guests and 12 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Topic Options
#1496835 - 08/15/10 11:54 PM Question regarding Chopin Black key etude
Mochomu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 76
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
Hello Experts,

I started reading Chopin Op10-5, and I run into this. In Measure 31, the top note in the last chord on the left hand, is that an F or F flat? F has a flat earlier in the measure, and has a natural in the last chord according to the Salabert editon by Cortot. This change it to a major chord. But I have another edition from Schirmer's Sibrary, which doesn't have a natural on that note, which makes it a minor. Both sounds fine when you play it at the suggested tempo, but it changes the mood slightly.

When I checked editions available online, I see both versions.
Could anyone tell me which version is considered correct?

Thank you.
_________________________
Current project:
Chopin Scherzo No.1
Chopin Etude OP.25 No.12



Top
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items
#1496838 - 08/16/10 12:06 AM Re: Question regarding Chopin Black key etude [Re: Mochomu]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6413
Loc: St. Louis area
laugh I can tell you what I consider correct and no consensus will change my mind. F!

(in other words, that's what I've been playing for years)
_________________________
Horowitz was awesome!

Top
#1496851 - 08/16/10 12:58 AM Re: Question regarding Chopin Black key etude [Re: Mochomu]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6342
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Checking Chopin's First Editions Online, this is the passage in question:



This is from a previous passage on the same page:


You can see he repeats accidentals on the same note in the same measure in other instances, probably because of the chord (so both notes have the same accidental), like the double B flat or the C sharp.

I consulted Bailie, but didn't find any remarks concerning measure #31... Theoretically it should be a flat if he doesn't put the natural, but I haven't played this etude yet. Are there no editorial notes next to the natural (in the editions that consider the natural correct)?
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


Top
#1496858 - 08/16/10 01:11 AM Re: Question regarding Chopin Black key etude [Re: ChopinAddict]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3974
Loc: Bay Area, CA
I've learned here that it can be hard to get a definitive answer for this sort of thing, especially with Chopin.

My Paderewski edition has an F natural for that second chord. In the commentary, he writes (paraphrasing here):

In the manuscript, original French edition and original German edition there is no natural sign before the F of the second chord of the measure. Bulow and Klindworth have accepted this version (with the Fb). However, it is very probable that the natural was omitted inadvertently. The key of this passage (Db) and the chromatic progression Fb - F - Gb both support the F natural. This is why we have followed Mikuli's version.
_________________________
Goldberg Variations (so far:-->V25)
Schumann: F# minor sonata

Top
#1496860 - 08/16/10 01:19 AM Re: Question regarding Chopin Black key etude [Re: ChopinAddict]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8354
Badura-Skoda's urtext gives it as F flat, although there's a footnote saying that Mikuli and many later editions have an F natural.

The Paderewski edition gives it as F natural (taking it from Mikuli), in spite of the fact that neither the manuscript nor the first editions show a natural sign there. Their reasoning is that "it was very probable that the natural was omitted inadvertently" and they think it makes sense harmonically.

Top
#1496901 - 08/16/10 04:29 AM Re: Question regarding Chopin Black key etude [Re: wr]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6342
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Thank you for the information, beet31425 and wr.
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


Top
#1497109 - 08/16/10 01:18 PM Re: Question regarding Chopin Black key etude [Re: ChopinAddict]
Mochomu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 76
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
Thank you everyone for informations and suggestions.

I feel the argument given in the Paderwski edition is convincing. I will use the F natural version.

Thank you.
_________________________
Current project:
Chopin Scherzo No.1
Chopin Etude OP.25 No.12



Top

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
(ad) Teaching Music To Children
Teaching Music to Children
(ad) Yamaha CP4 Rebate
Yamaha CP4 Rebate
(ads) PD - WNG - MH
PianoDisc
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
Composer Statuettes
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Digital piano with synth sound or Synth with piano sound?
by jkim4007
07/01/15 02:21 AM
Questions about our Baldwin
by Dave-j
07/01/15 12:59 AM
looking for an orchestra to play with
by MiguelSousa
06/30/15 10:38 PM
A question on attitude , psychology and piano.
by piano_primo_1
06/30/15 10:27 PM
Piano teacher in NJ
by ezpiano.org
06/30/15 10:13 PM
What's Hot!!
New Forum for Selling Your Products or Services
--------------------
Historic Piano Documents
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Forum Stats
79,838 Registered Members
44 Forums
165,203 Topics
2,422,657 Posts

Most users ever online: 15,252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2015 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission