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#1499375 - 08/19/10 04:28 PM Henle Cloth-bound Editions
the nosy ape Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/10/08
Posts: 681
Loc: Westford, MA
What are the advantages of the Henle cloth-bound editions over the paper-bound ones? I am thinking of treating myself to the Beethoven Sonatas.

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#1499390 - 08/19/10 04:48 PM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: the nosy ape]
JGonzalezGUS Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 191
Loc: Florida, USA
Never had one (could not afford it frown

Let me know if they are easier to learn smile
_________________________
Jose
Kawai K5 - Kawai CA61

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#1499407 - 08/19/10 05:13 PM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: JGonzalezGUS]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2229
Loc: San Jose, CA
I've had the Beethoven Sonatas in the cloth-bound editions since I was a kid. The binding is still strong and the pages look like new 20 years later.

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#1499411 - 08/19/10 05:23 PM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: JGonzalezGUS]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
One advantage is that it will make your pocketbook lighter. Other than that it's like buying a hardbound book. They're fantastic really and I own a few dozen of them. Keep in mind, however, that they don't always sit open quite as nicely on the piano's music stand as do the paper bound and after spending extra dollars for them you're probably not going to want to use them as a "working" edition. They are quite nice (some come with slipcases) and will make a nice treat for yourself! Enjoy!
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1499415 - 08/19/10 05:25 PM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: jeffreyjones]
Victor25 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/30/09
Posts: 1676
Loc: The Netherlands
Yeah they just stay good longer, however they are also more expensive. I have the paperbounds as study books, but will buy the clothbounds later for performance.
_________________________
Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)

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#1499419 - 08/19/10 05:31 PM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: Victor25]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Victor25
Yeah they just stay good longer, however they are also more expensive. I have the paperbounds as study books, but will buy the clothbounds later for performance.


You use the score for performances?
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1499423 - 08/19/10 05:38 PM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: stores]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2229
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: stores
One advantage is that it will make your pocketbook lighter. Other than that it's like buying a hardbound book. They're fantastic really and I own a few dozen of them. Keep in mind, however, that they don't always sit open quite as nicely on the piano's music stand as do the paper bound and after spending extra dollars for them you're probably not going to want to use them as a "working" edition. They are quite nice (some come with slipcases) and will make a nice treat for yourself! Enjoy!


I use mine as working editions.. it would be silly to buy books I couldn't use! I don't have any others besides the Beethoven Sonatas, but then again, I've had to slowly replace most of my library as the books have fallen apart, so in the long run, they're probably a good investment for a serious player.

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#1499427 - 08/19/10 05:44 PM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: jeffreyjones]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
A lot of people use the score for performances, even professionals.

I love clothbound editions. I love hardbound editions too. I get all my editions hardbound at the library hehe.
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

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#1499428 - 08/19/10 05:46 PM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: jeffreyjones]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Originally Posted By: stores
One advantage is that it will make your pocketbook lighter. Other than that it's like buying a hardbound book. They're fantastic really and I own a few dozen of them. Keep in mind, however, that they don't always sit open quite as nicely on the piano's music stand as do the paper bound and after spending extra dollars for them you're probably not going to want to use them as a "working" edition. They are quite nice (some come with slipcases) and will make a nice treat for yourself! Enjoy!


I use mine as working editions.. it would be silly to buy books I couldn't use! I don't have any others besides the Beethoven Sonatas, but then again, I've had to slowly replace most of my library as the books have fallen apart, so in the long run, they're probably a good investment for a serious player.


You're right that it would be silly (I use mine as working editions also and am lucky to have doubles of many scores...the doubles being paper) but most don't want to spend that kind of money on something that they'll "beat up".
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1499430 - 08/19/10 05:47 PM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: debrucey]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: debrucey
A lot of people use the score for performances, even professionals.



Who? I can't recall the last time I've seen anyone with a score.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1499629 - 08/20/10 12:13 AM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: stores]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
The only cloth bound I have is the complete Beethovens, and they are lovely. Lucky enough to inherit these long before I could play any beethoven, only later found out how expensive they are.
But it doesn't seem to make playing them any easier wink I take a working photocopy to my lessons since I ride my bike up a huge hill (and I am heavy enough), later I put my final fingerings/markings in the book, then I can maintain or revive pieces using the books - that's the plan anyway.
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1499674 - 08/20/10 03:15 AM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: stores]
Victor25 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/30/09
Posts: 1676
Loc: The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: Victor25
Yeah they just stay good longer, however they are also more expensive. I have the paperbounds as study books, but will buy the clothbounds later for performance.


You use the score for performances?


Is this a question?
_________________________
Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)

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#1499695 - 08/20/10 04:39 AM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: Victor25]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Victor25
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: Victor25
Yeah they just stay good longer, however they are also more expensive. I have the paperbounds as study books, but will buy the clothbounds later for performance.


You use the score for performances?


Is this a question?


Quite often when one adds a question mark to the end of a sentence it's to signify the presence of a question.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1499733 - 08/20/10 07:08 AM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: stores]
Victor25 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/30/09
Posts: 1676
Loc: The Netherlands
I say I will buy the clothbounds later for performance, then you ask if I use the score for performances.....

It seemed more like you wanted to give your critique or something, because the question you asked was already answered in my first post. Was this your intent? Or didn't you understand from my first sentence that my plan was to buy the clothbounds later, to use during performance?


Edited by Victor25 (08/20/10 07:46 AM)
_________________________
Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)

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#1499737 - 08/20/10 07:18 AM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: Victor25]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Manchester, UK
Joanna MacGregor regularly uses the score. I saw Pierre Laurent-Aimard use a score for Gaspard de la Nuit once. Chamber music performers almost always use the score.
_________________________
Kapustin - Preludes Op. 53, Nos. 8, 11, 12, 9 and 10
Poulenc - Nocturnes and Novellettes
Barber - Souvenirs
Esa-Pekka Salonen - Dichotomie
Kevin Oldham - Ballade, Op. 17

Top
#1499802 - 08/20/10 10:20 AM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: stores]
the nosy ape Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/10/08
Posts: 681
Loc: Westford, MA
Originally Posted By: stores
One advantage is that it will make your pocketbook lighter. Other than that it's like buying a hardbound book. They're fantastic really and I own a few dozen of them. Keep in mind, however, that they don't always sit open quite as nicely on the piano's music stand as do the paper bound and after spending extra dollars for them you're probably not going to want to use them as a "working" edition. They are quite nice (some come with slipcases) and will make a nice treat for yourself! Enjoy!

The cloth-bound editions run about $20 more per volume. Since this will be a birthday present to myself the added expense is not a big deal. However, how well they sit open is a big deal. This is one of the things I really like about my other Henle editions. How much worse are the cloth-bound editions? I already find the paper-bound editions to be quite durable so how well the sit open may be the deciding factor.

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#1499808 - 08/20/10 10:37 AM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: the nosy ape]
Victor25 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/30/09
Posts: 1676
Loc: The Netherlands
I have the full (paperbound) collection from Henle of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn and Chopin, and all of them stay open perfectly.
_________________________
Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)

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#1499812 - 08/20/10 10:42 AM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: the nosy ape]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17666
Loc: Victoria, BC
Given that Henle paper-bound editions, with proper, reasonable care, are extremely durable, the only advantage I can see to having cloth-bound editions is that of appearance. I don't have any experience with Henle cloth-bounds, but the few cloth-bounds I have from other publishers do tend to be a little less manageable on the music stand than well-bound paper editions.

Cloth-bound will certainly look nice on the shelves, though, just as do my leather-bound Éditions de la Pléiade of certain major works of French literature. Those works could have been bought in much, much cheaper editions, but the luxury of handling a leather-bound edition printed on extremely fine paper is an indulgence I have allowed myself.

That said, I don't think I could bring myself to using a cloth-bound Henle as a working copy, but that's just me, I guess.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony

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#1500041 - 08/20/10 05:52 PM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: Victor25]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Victor25
I say I will buy the clothbounds later for performance, then you ask if I use the score for performances.....

It seemed more like you wanted to give your critique or something, because the question you asked was already answered in my first post. Was this your intent? Or didn't you understand from my first sentence that my plan was to buy the clothbounds later, to use during performance?


No critique...It just seemed as if you meant you used paper bound for working and then you buy the clothbound for performance. Just a misunderstanding in the wording you used is all.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1500047 - 08/20/10 06:06 PM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: the nosy ape]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: the nosy ape
Originally Posted By: stores
One advantage is that it will make your pocketbook lighter. Other than that it's like buying a hardbound book. They're fantastic really and I own a few dozen of them. Keep in mind, however, that they don't always sit open quite as nicely on the piano's music stand as do the paper bound and after spending extra dollars for them you're probably not going to want to use them as a "working" edition. They are quite nice (some come with slipcases) and will make a nice treat for yourself! Enjoy!

The cloth-bound editions run about $20 more per volume. Since this will be a birthday present to myself the added expense is not a big deal. However, how well they sit open is a big deal. This is one of the things I really like about my other Henle editions. How much worse are the cloth-bound editions? I already find the paper-bound editions to be quite durable so how well the sit open may be the deciding factor.


You're right that the cost is fairly marginal, but keep in mind there are two volumes. My point here was that most people don't necessarily want to shell out $100 for all 32 at once. They are, as I said (and Bruce I notice did too), somewhat difficult to keep open on the stand. With the extra expense you don't want to have to crease your pages, or grab a bottom corner (perhaps crumpling or tearing it in the process) to turn a page back. I'm not at all discouraging you from purchasing them, but just giving you a bit of a heads up. If I were you and wanted to treat myself I'd buy them.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1500049 - 08/20/10 06:07 PM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: stores]
Victor25 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/30/09
Posts: 1676
Loc: The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: Victor25
I say I will buy the clothbounds later for performance, then you ask if I use the score for performances.....

It seemed more like you wanted to give your critique or something, because the question you asked was already answered in my first post. Was this your intent? Or didn't you understand from my first sentence that my plan was to buy the clothbounds later, to use during performance?


No critique...It just seemed as if you meant you used paper bound for working and then you buy the clothbound for performance. Just a misunderstanding in the wording you used is all.


Ahh ok, then I understand, I was afraid you were going to make a snobby comment about my performing with sheets (I wasn't used to this from you, so that was why I was surprised). But my apologies then. And to answer your question, yes my idea was to keep the paperbound one's as 'workbooks', with lots of tips and examinations in them, and to have a good looking clothbound to use for performance.
_________________________
Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)

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#1500067 - 08/20/10 06:38 PM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: Victor25]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Victor25
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: Victor25
I say I will buy the clothbounds later for performance, then you ask if I use the score for performances.....

It seemed more like you wanted to give your critique or something, because the question you asked was already answered in my first post. Was this your intent? Or didn't you understand from my first sentence that my plan was to buy the clothbounds later, to use during performance?


No critique...It just seemed as if you meant you used paper bound for working and then you buy the clothbound for performance. Just a misunderstanding in the wording you used is all.


Ahh ok, then I understand, I was afraid you were going to make a snobby comment about my performing with sheets (I wasn't used to this from you, so that was why I was surprised). But my apologies then. And to answer your question, yes my idea was to keep the paperbound one's as 'workbooks', with lots of tips and examinations in them, and to have a good looking clothbound to use for performance.


It wouldn't have been a snobby comment, but yes I was going to ask why it is that you use the score, rather than memorise for performance. Just curious.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1500263 - 08/21/10 01:46 AM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: stores]
Mattardo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 1306
Of COURSE he was going to make a snobby comment about memorizing - that was fairly obvious.
But moving on past that silliness, which is appropriate for another thread...

I recently got some cloth-bound hard-cover editions from Henle and they are fantastic!
The Brahms Violin Sonatas edition lay open perfectly, are great for performance and will probably last longer in such a situation. I find that the paper editions can take a pretty severe beating at times.
This is the first time I've used these editions, and I will be spending the extra money from now on when possible. I don't mind a few nicks on the cover from heavy usage in performance. They're meant to be used, in my opinion.
I'll be getting the Beethoven Violin Sonata Editions next, but I must wait for the new edition (or reprinting - whichever it is) this October.

So there's a ringing endorsement on all counts for you.


Edited by Mattardo (08/21/10 01:47 AM)

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#1514868 - 09/14/10 11:25 AM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: the nosy ape]
the nosy ape Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/10/08
Posts: 681
Loc: Westford, MA
Well, I got the cloth bound editions and have been using them for a little while now. I must say that they are fantastic. If anything, they stay open on the music stand better than my paper editions, and they look so good sitting in my bookcase. My wife had a bit of sticker shock, but nothing life threatening wink.

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#1514895 - 09/14/10 12:19 PM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: the nosy ape]
Bart Kinlein Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 715
Loc: Maryland

Generally, cloth bound books should lay open better than paperacks. To understand why, clothbound books are held together with threads, being sew together with the thread inserted through the center of the folds. Softbound (paperback) books have the folds cut off, then notched and coated with glue (generally very quick drying hot glue) and the cover immediately attached.

Because a sewn book retains the original folds, it will open flatter than a book that has the folds removed, notches cut into it and glue forced into those grooves.

I owned a bookbindery for 30 years that produced millions of books using both types of bindings, as well as plastic and wire bindings. I generally buy paperback music books and have them plastic bound at Staples or Office Depot for a couple of dollars each.

If I were to purchase cloth bound books I would use them for reference and display only. I treat clothbound books very lovingly! 3hearts

Having said the above, a recent trend (30 years) is to use the glued method even for clothbound books as it is much less expensive.
_________________________
Steinway 1905 model A, rebuild started 2008, completed 2012
Yahama CVP-401
Will somone get my wife off the Steinway so I can play it!

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#1515043 - 09/14/10 03:36 PM Re: Henle Cloth-bound Editions [Re: Bart Kinlein]
coz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/10
Posts: 34
Loc: United States
I've had both and prefer the paperback versions for practicing. I feel that they open flatter than the hard bound Henle editions. Paper is identical and you can't go wrong either way.

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