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#1497369 - 08/16/10 06:29 PM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: Smallpiano]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Jeez, between all the self aggrandizing and the annoying platitudes this thread's
***REALLY AWESOME*** (as they say). Or have I inadvertently surfed into Platitude World?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1497441 - 08/16/10 08:39 PM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
In my mind the ideas of the original post have it backwards. Music is a gift that I give TO the students, not the other way around.

It's important not to confuse lack of teaching skill, lack of useful development of the child or adult by teacher, parents, environment of school and home, with lack of potential or talent in "jenny". Hell, I WAS Jenny!!!

Currawong, I had a little moment like that with an adult student this week. It's our job to be patient and persisten and positive, and try many many ways to draw the music out of the student. Oh it's so exciting when a flash of real beauty is seen... Made me pretty happy.

To Steve042, don't feel bad about not reading and unusual technique for teaching, you can teach in a different way and will attract the clients that are interested. Much more important is believing in all your students, being committed to their musicality for their sakes not yours, and really loving the art of teaching. If you can't do/feel this then your other questioning of your abilities may not be very important IMO.
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1497453 - 08/16/10 08:52 PM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: Canonie]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Steve042, are you wanting to be a teacher? Or is this discussion an exploration of whether teaching is possible at all?
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1497584 - 08/17/10 12:55 AM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Canonie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 1941
Loc: Australia
I don't know where I got that idea, maybe I thought steve was trying to teach jennys which happen to be his own kids. Apologies for assuming. But I could apply the point to the "anyones" who wants to give up on the "musically untalented".

Originally Posted By: steve042
Sure he can play anything you put down in front of him and I can't but it still sounds like crap.
He can teach, I can't because all I can tell a student is "look for the source Luke".
<...>
after 10 years of my 3 kids trying to play various instruments (they can't)
_________________________

Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.

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#1497649 - 08/17/10 04:56 AM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: Canonie]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Hi Elissa,

Forgive me for going on about the "spatial" bit ... but for an architect, this is home territory (that’s of course if the dreamer is worth his salt).

Thinking spatially is not at all easy ... it took me 3 initial years before the mast to eventually cotton on to the fact that spatial thinking was the core of architectural design ... without it, the world remains 2 dimensional ... but what encouragement when the old brain-box learns how to think in 3-dimensions ... and spin any design concept around in the mind.

And so my disbelief at the very thought of a 6-year-old being taught to think spatially.

But enough for now ... let me get to my medication.

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#1497656 - 08/17/10 05:33 AM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: btb]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Good one Sir b! though Elissa's probable thinking more in the kinesthetic direction.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1497969 - 08/17/10 03:01 PM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
btb, all good: now you've contextualised your response I know better how to explain.

In mathematics the ability to reason spatially is regarded as being about thinking about shapes, how they fit into other shapes, how they can be manipulated - and in this context 'spatial' reasoning can be two-dimensional, but the term is being used to distinguish being able to think about shapes in space as compared to being able to think in a deductive fashion, or in terms of other non-spatial kinds of patterns. The research that shows that children improve their 'spatial' reasoning is looking at these specific mathematical applications of the term 'spatial' and I'm sure there's been no research on children's ability to think in more applied architectural sense of 'spatial' although of course these two kinds of spatial reasoning are not unconnected.

I've just googled 'spatial reasoning' and the first test that came up was this :

There is a good and growing body of research that shows that learning to play the piano helps children improve their scores in these kinds of tests.

I'm not sure how this relates to the process of thinking spatially as an architect, and again let me stress, I'm not a researcher into the intellectual benefits of learning to play the piano, so it's no skin off my nose if you find the research surprising/laughable. But if parents have read reports about a connection between learning the piano and doing better in spatial reasoning and that's why they have organised piano lessons for their child - they won't care much if little Jenny isn't that great a performer.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1498087 - 08/17/10 06:01 PM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: btb]
kck Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 265
Originally Posted By: btb


And so my disbelief at the very thought of a 6-year-old being taught to think spatially.



Not to totally shake your world, but some people very naturally think spatially. My 9 year old hit the ceiling on the visual-spatial portion of an IQ test which involved moving objects in space and the like. My husband and I are very much this way as well (I studied architecture for a time and this was nothing I ever worked on). If you ask my son to learn things more linearly, that might confuse him however. He is also a very natural piano player, but I don't think I'd let the OP evaluate his playing. wink

A person need only google "music education benefits" to find lots of wonderful reasons to engage your kids in piano lessons. I personally enjoy piano recitals from the littlest kids banging out single note one hand tunes to the longest Mozart Sonatas. It represents much hard work and commitment. I've watched some kids over years have a very slow start and bloom into competent and artistic musicians. They might not have the natural talent some have. But they've developed an ear and perseverance that not many have either. Very few can be professional pianists.

I'll be holding my breath waiting for the OP's video to be posted.
_________________________
Amateur musician, piano and violin parent

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#1498116 - 08/17/10 06:44 PM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: kck]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: kck
Originally Posted By: btb


And so my disbelief at the very thought of a 6-year-old being taught to think spatially.



Not to totally shake your world, but some people very naturally think spatially. My 9 year old hit the ceiling on the visual-spatial portion of an IQ test which involved moving objects in space and the like. My husband and I are very much this way as well (I studied architecture for a time and this was nothing I ever worked on). If you ask my son to learn things more linearly, that might confuse him however. He is also a very natural piano player, but I don't think I'd let the OP evaluate his playing. wink

A person need only google "music education benefits" to find lots of wonderful reasons to engage your kids in piano lessons. I personally enjoy piano recitals from the littlest kids banging out single note one hand tunes to the longest Mozart Sonatas. It represents much hard work and commitment. I've watched some kids over years have a very slow start and bloom into competent and artistic musicians. They might not have the natural talent some have. But they've developed an ear and perseverance that not many have either. Very few can be professional pianists.

I'll be holding my breath waiting for the OP's video to be posted.


+1
_________________________
B.A., Piano, Piano Pegagogy, Music Ed.
M.M., Piano

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#1498118 - 08/17/10 06:44 PM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: kck]
Victor25 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/30/09
Posts: 1676
Loc: The Netherlands
THIS THREAD IS AWESOME!
_________________________
Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)

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#1498329 - 08/18/10 02:03 AM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: Victor25]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Sorry chaps,

Can’t help thinking that space is 3-dimensional ... am tickled pink to hear that a young Dutch airline pilot (who likes his Beethoven sonatas) considers this thread awesome ... he’s still to master the Moonlight 3rd movement (but from all accounts, it won’t be long).

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#1498364 - 08/18/10 03:45 AM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: btb]
Opus_Maximus Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/04
Posts: 1480
Bach
Mozart
Beethoven
Chopin
Liszt
Vladimir Horowitz
Glenn Gould
Keith Jarret
Duke Ellington
Lang Lang
Judy Collins
Lady Gaga
........ALL had extensive lessons. Among hundreds of others. The extent to which their inborn gifts helped them develop into what they were only rests on top of the fact that they had this foundation.

I don't dispute the fact that some people - no matter how hard they work or how well they are taught - just don't have it and will not amount to so much musically. But is it so audacious to think that perhaps there is something in the PROCESS of trying to learn something that can help one grow in other ways? God knows that I have no aptitude in mathematics, but is it so outrageous to think that all those years that is was shoved down my throat in k-12 possibly helped develop a sense of problem solving, a certain patience, the act of critical thinking, and, most importantly - an admiration and I daresay even love - for the art of math itself and those who excell at it?


Also you're going to have to post some recordings of yourself if you want to be taken half seriously.


Edited by Opus_Maximus (08/18/10 04:05 AM)

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#1498518 - 08/18/10 10:53 AM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: Opus_Maximus]
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
hahahaha! This thread reminds me of the musical genius thread.. everyone wanted some proof! proof.. proof.. proof.. and only then they will consider what is being said...

Why not just listen to what he's saying.. and take what he's saying with a grain of salt..
And also apply the same rule with all other people of all different classes and status levels..
You don't have to call it right or wrong... just listen!!

we learn a lot from ideas of others...
we also learn about others from the ideas they share...
So don't judge .. just learn.
_________________________
... such a vital organ

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#1498523 - 08/18/10 10:59 AM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: hippymusicman]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Learning is about discrimination. If you don't judge you don't learn - put that in your pipe!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1498546 - 08/18/10 11:48 AM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: keyboardklutz]
hippymusicman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 150
I did consider it.. and it seems we have a difference in opinion.
_________________________
... such a vital organ

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#1498551 - 08/18/10 11:52 AM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: hippymusicman]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
I did consider it.. and it seems we have a difference in opinion.
You mean you made a considered judgement?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1498569 - 08/18/10 12:18 PM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: keyboardklutz]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5422
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
I did consider it.. and it seems we have a difference in opinion.
You mean you made a considered judgement?
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#1498583 - 08/18/10 12:27 PM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: keyboardklutz]
bitWrangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1785
Loc: Central TX
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: hippymusicman
I did consider it.. and it seems we have a difference in opinion.
You mean you made a considered judgement?


This is all sounding very familiar .....

Like the saying goes:

"if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice"


Edited by bitWrangler (08/18/10 12:29 PM)

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#1498644 - 08/18/10 02:03 PM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: bitWrangler]
JimF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/09
Posts: 1676
Loc: south florida
YES, this thread is AWESOME. thumb

And now we can have the genius lecturing our OP on the finer points of ego. sick

I put the over/under at 7 pages for those inclined to wagering. cool


(all wagers cancelled if OP posts playing video) f
_________________________
La Fille aux cheveux de lin - Debussy
Ma Mere L'Oye - Ravel
Mozart Sonata K545

Estonia L190 #7284





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#1498793 - 08/18/10 05:12 PM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: JimF]
JustAnotherPianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
My own personal theory is that the OP is actually just GYRO using an alternate account.

in which case,

don't feed the troll. this thread has already seen him ruthlessly devour family upon family of billy goats.

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#1498802 - 08/18/10 05:22 PM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: JustAnotherPianist]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Easy does it, Gyro is not a troll.

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#1499063 - 08/19/10 03:16 AM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: landorrano]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873

I'll bet you big $ the OP isn't Gyro. This guy says he's a natural, Gyro said he waded through 3 jazz books and couldn't learn a thing.

He comes of as a braggart, but maybe music's all he's got. Certainly not tennis! haha, just kidding man.

I think most wouldn't even be that impressed with his playing anyways, just annoyed at his boasts of musical talent. People who know they are good usually don't need to say it.

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#1499064 - 08/19/10 03:17 AM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
oh and welcome back "Mr Musical genius" hippoman!!!

Maybe you 2 guys can play a duet together and talk about how easy it is for you!

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#1499316 - 08/19/10 02:20 PM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: SteveO42]
SAnnM AB-2001 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 2022
Loc: Canada
There is a book I'm reading "Talent is Overrated." You should read it. I'm not at home now and can't remember the author but I'd bet you could find it on Amazon.
_________________________
It's the journey not the destination..

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#1499448 - 08/19/10 06:10 PM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: SAnnM AB-2001]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11439
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: IPIBAHN - Sandy
There is a book I'm reading "Talent is Overrated." You should read it. I'm not at home now and can't remember the author but I'd bet you could find it on Amazon.



I haven't read it, but I like the title. I have had many talented students who refused to learn.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#1499513 - 08/19/10 07:56 PM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: Morodiene]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7311
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Talent Is Overrated: What Really Separates World-Class Performers from Everybody Else by Geoff Colvin.

We discussed this particular book back in November last year. You can search using the author's name to find comments I wrote. I believe others read the book and added comments later on.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1499517 - 08/19/10 08:01 PM Re: Can you actually "teach" someone to play the piano? [Re: John v.d.Brook]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
That title could aptly describe a few dozen or so sports "prodigies" that I can think of. Michelle Wie anyone?

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