Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#1502243 - 08/24/10 11:32 AM Getting ripped off in gigs
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
I was asked to do a gig with them couple of weeks ago as a guest musician, everything went okay things for the most part very professional. The problem started when they asked me to do a free gig on October. At first I really wasn't into the idea, but they looked like they needed help, and I thought I can help build better network, since the band was pretty reputable in the area and I didn't mind playing for a good cause.

But I started having second thoughts about this, and asked the other guest players what they were planning to do. It turns out that they were actually getting paid for the gig. What I know is that they had very little budget, and they've probably allocated all their money to other guest players long before they asked me to do the gig(they didn't know I existed in the scene), and they were planning to use a student piano player for free in the first place.

What I felt was wrong was the fact that whoever was in charge gave me the impression that nobody was getting paid for this gig. It could have been an honest mistake, but it certainly gave me a bad impression, and made me question whether they treated other guest musicians with courtesy and respect.

I want to add that I am not posting this because of money but because principle. If they let me know the money situation and explained to me why some people were getting paid and I wasn't, I would have been more understanding. I still might have done the gig if the explanation is reasonable.

I will give them credit for telling me that they will understand if I choose not to do it and they will use someone else instead. But the way they conducted business gave me the impression that they didn't want me to find out other people were getting paid on this gig.

The bottom line is this , they should know that whether other guest musicians are paid or not will influence my decision, and the lack of transparency in this respect has greatly tainted my opinion on this group.

I guess what I would like is a feedback from you guys.. what's the best way to deal with situation like this? Part of me feels like I have been ripped of and disrespected.

Thanks,



Edited by etcetra (08/24/10 12:42 PM)

Top
Piano & Music Accessories
#1502251 - 08/24/10 11:43 AM Re: Getting ripped off in gigs [Re: etcetra]
casinitaly Offline

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 4860
Loc: Italy
Why would you not say anything to the organizer? If you don't respond he will never know that you were upset.

You can tell him very matter-of-factly that you feel he mislead you and you don't appreciate it.
Or you could tell him you think he mislead you - but as this is a worthy cause you'll do the gig.

If you don't say anything you run the risk of getting "set up" again.
You don't have to be angry or confrontational.

Maybe they were perfectly happy to go with a student but were really impressed with your playing and wanted YOU, even though their budget was already spent. Sure, they should have explained more, but the fact is that they didn't.

Do you ever want to play with them again? If so, set the ground rules now. If you never plan on seeing them again, don't you want them to know why? Again, you don't have to be heavy handed, just express what your expectations are very clearly and politely.

(btw, no, I don't have experience as a musician in this type of thing, but I do in other fields. I do understand you feel taken advantage of - it has happened to me too - but it won't happen again. Live and learn.)
_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

Top
#1502299 - 08/24/10 12:51 PM Re: Getting ripped off in gigs [Re: casinitaly]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
casinititaly

I forgot to mention that I did play one gig with them last week as a sub, and they did pay me very well for it.

thanks. after consulting other musicians friends I did just that. I emailed the person in charge and politely told him that I talked to other people and it seems like some were getting paid and some weren't.. and I asked him what was going on.

I've also found out from other people that the guy in charge is known to do stuff like this, which means I will probably not work with them again. But that shouldn't stop me from handling the situation professionally. I am glad I didn't blow up and talked to older players in the scene first.


Edited by etcetra (08/24/10 01:11 PM)

Top
#1502322 - 08/24/10 01:15 PM Re: Getting ripped off in gigs [Re: etcetra]
casinitaly Offline

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 4860
Loc: Italy
Good for you!
I did catch that you were paid for the first gig - it was the next "charity gig" that was the issue.

I think you've handled it beautifully - professionally.

Maybe the fellow in charge will re-think his approach in the future.
_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

Top
#1502329 - 08/24/10 01:24 PM Re: Getting ripped off in gigs [Re: casinitaly]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Originally Posted By: casinitaly
Good for you!
I did catch that you were paid for the first gig - it was the next "charity gig" that was the issue.

I think you've handled it beautifully - professionally.

Maybe the fellow in charge will re-think his approach in the future.


thanks smile The other players I talked were just as confused too, they assumed that I was getting paid also, and they told me they are calling the organizers too. So I am guessing organizers are going to end up getting bad rep for this.

Top
#1502370 - 08/24/10 02:07 PM Re: Getting ripped off in gigs [Re: etcetra]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17733
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
I'll second casinitaly's opinion that you handled an unpleasant situation very well. You may still be hosed this time around in terms of payment, but at least the organizers are on notice that their treatment of you was not professional.

[Edit: see Cathy's post immediately following. I was wrong about this; you can't deduct services directly but have to do some fancy bookkeeping first.]
p.s. If you're located in the U.S., and this is a charity gig, you can always request a letter from the organizers thanking you for your donation of services, with an estimated value of whatever you'd charge for a paying gig. That way you could at least deduct it from your taxes.


Edited by Monica K. (08/24/10 03:27 PM)
Edit Reason: I was wrong, as usual.
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

Top
#1502399 - 08/24/10 02:51 PM Re: Getting ripped off in gigs [Re: Monica K.]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5426
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
It's my understanding that the value of your time isn't deductible as a charitable gift here in the U.S. I can't, for instance, volunteer as bookkeeper and deduct what I would normally charge for bookkeeping services. The way I've had people handle things is to charge us, we pay, and then they write us a check for that amount. The cash is, in fact, deductible, because you've donated it back to us. I don't even allow them to endorse our check back to us, just to be on the safe side.

There may be nuances of the tax code of which I'm not aware, however. But that's the way I understand the services end of it.

Here's a link to an H&R Block site with some information:

Non-deductibility of value of time and services

Cathy


Edited by jotur (08/24/10 02:53 PM)
Edit Reason: added link
_________________________

Top
#1502423 - 08/24/10 03:24 PM Re: Getting ripped off in gigs [Re: jotur]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17733
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Thanks, Cathy! That's quite an important correction! While it's nice that there are ways to work around that and still get the write-off, it's a bit of a rigmarole.
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

Top
#1502429 - 08/24/10 03:34 PM Re: Getting ripped off in gigs [Re: Monica K.]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Jotur&Monica K

Thanks for letting me know, I will remember this next time I get a charity gig. As far as this gig is concerned, if they are ripping me of in terms of payment, I doubt they will go through the trouble of writing checks for me though. They'll probably charge me, and conveniently forget about the check smile

Top
#1502432 - 08/24/10 03:39 PM Re: Getting ripped off in gigs [Re: etcetra]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
What was his response to your email?
_________________________
Roland FP-4 digital piano, Mason & Hamlin acoustic piano.

Top
#1502443 - 08/24/10 03:57 PM Re: Getting ripped off in gigs [Re: Jazz+]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
I'll let you know when I get it.

I felt bad because (not to sound too full of myself) they are going to take a hit in the quality of their performance if I don't do it. The sub is a classical pianist who has very little experience playing jazz. The guest sax player and I had the most solo on the last gig. Well but a lot of bands here are known to cut cost by hiring less qualified musician and they don't seem to mind the fact that the music suffers from that.. so it's their problem now.

Top
#1502618 - 08/24/10 09:33 PM Re: Getting ripped off in gigs [Re: etcetra]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
jazz+

I did get an email back from the organizer.. they told me exactly how much they were getting for the gig(which is barely enough to cover transportation) and that no one was getting paid. It could be a big misunderstanding, It's possible that the organizer told my friend there was pay and the whole situation changed and they haven't told him yet. But if that's the case it sucks for the him, because he canceled another good paying gig to do this gig.

It still doesn't make sense, because we asked about the pay around the same time a month ago. And the organizers knows my friend is in high demand and they know each other well enough to know that he is not willing to play a gig for free. My friend is planning to ask about the pay later in the week, but he is mostly likely going to take the other gig instead.

It's also possible that organizer will make a deal with my friend an offer to pay him, as long as he doesn't tell anybody about it.

Either way, something not right about all this.



Edited by etcetra (08/24/10 09:36 PM)

Top
#1502638 - 08/24/10 09:58 PM Re: Getting ripped off in gigs [Re: etcetra]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17733
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
+1. Somebody is either very mistaken, confused, or lying. None of those possibilities is comforting.

Sorry you have to deal with this, etcetera. I guess this is just one you have to chalk up to experience and then try to move on.
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

Top
#1502720 - 08/24/10 11:44 PM Re: Getting ripped off in gigs [Re: Monica K.]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Monica,

Thanks, yea I feel like I've learned a lot from the few hours trying to figure out how to deal with this situation. I am glad I brought the issue up for me and my friend's sake. It would suck if he found out right before the gig that there was no money in it. Either way I will know for sure when my friend asks the organizer about the pay situation later this week.

The problem is you can't really know for sure what the other person's intent is. It really is difficult to find the balance between being positive/giving benefit of the doubt and being cautiously skeptic. You can't be naive but you can't be too paranoid either.

Top
#1502764 - 08/25/10 01:25 AM Re: Getting ripped off in gigs [Re: etcetra]
RayE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/19/10
Posts: 163
Loc: Rochester, NY, USA
When I was playing with a band for money, we always had a written contract that detailing the specifics of the job, IE: Date Start and stop time, sound check time, and special requests for music, and most importantly how much we were to be compensated. Even on door gigs we had a contract detailing who was going to collect the door fee and what our % of the fee was going to be. A contract does two things it reduces misunderstandings, and keeps people on both sides from backing out of the deal by saying I never said that!! We did get stiffed a couple of times in the beginning and that's when we started getting things in writing. I'm not saying we didn't do the occasional Charity gig for free but we had everything spelled out in writing up front. If you agreed to play for free, I would go through with it, because if you don't you'll get a bad reputation, but I wouldn't accept the job as a freebee in the future.
_________________________
Retired Army reserve Bandsman who now plays for the Joy of Music!!

Top
#1503360 - 08/26/10 01:37 AM Re: Getting ripped off in gigs [Re: etcetra]
wavelength Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Vermont, USA
Originally Posted By: etcetra
You can't be naive but you can't be too paranoid either.


Personally, I think it is better to err on the side of believing that people are good. If you are naive and you get fooled, you might lose some money. OTOH, if you assume the worst of people you lose something much more valuable.

Top
#1503376 - 08/26/10 02:46 AM Re: Getting ripped off in gigs [Re: wavelength]
casinitaly Offline

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 4860
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: wavelength
If you assume the worst of people you lose something much more valuable.


I agree with you!

Though I do think that while you are believing that most people are, at heart, good, one also has to consider that with all the good will and best intentions in the world, other people may not be as organized/careful about details /considerate/ well-informed/ logical ...as you would like them to be, so you simply have to make sure things are clearly spelled out....for everyone's sake.
_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

Top

Moderator:  sharpsandflats 
What's Hot!!
European Piano Party 2014, Picts & Stories! (Piano Party in Portugal)
-------------------
75,000 Members and Growing!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(ad) Purely Piano Practice Software
Purely Piano Practice Software
(ad) Piano Guide Lessons
Piano Guide Lessons
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
111 registered (ando, AmateurBob, albumblatter, AndrewAJC, 36251, Abby Pianoman, 32 invisible), 1342 Guests and 23 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75369 Members
42 Forums
155827 Topics
2288169 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
New to the digital piano world! Can anyone help?
by blackwhitekeys
07/13/14 06:26 AM
Yamaha Swap For Roland ???
by musicmad
07/13/14 05:57 AM
midi over the internet
by chopin_r_us
07/13/14 04:56 AM
Theoretical tuning sequence
by DoelKees
07/13/14 01:01 AM
It's will never emit sounds again
by Maximillyan
07/12/14 11:24 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission