I have been anxiously waiting for two VSTs:

Synthogy Ivory II
AND
IS - Fazioli Concert Grand



After months of fruitlessly checking his website and even writing him an e-mail regarding the upcoming release, I just went to his website and almost fell of my chair haha!

I was so excited because Matt Stedeford said that the Fazioli he was sampling will be the largest sample library at the time of release, with 71,588 samples and 127 velocity layers in the Extreme Edition.

Website: http://www.imperfectsamples.com/

It looks like you can buy/get all versions except the Extreme Edition immediately. You can pre-order the Extreme Edition for the release on the 31th of October, 2010. What I find so intriguing is that he will ship his entire library on an external harddrive, that is very convenient. I am suprised that he is able to use the official "Fazioli" name, where as Synthogy did not get that privilege and had to resort to calling their VST "Italian Grand *HINT HINT*".

The prices will be:

• Fazioli Concert Grand (Basic) £39.99
  8 Layers, ~2000 samples, 2 Mic perspectives
• Fazioli Ebony Concert Grand (Pro) £89.98
  12 layers of perspective 1, and an extra mic perspective with 8 layers, 4,653 samples
• Fazioli Ebony Concert Grand (Complete) £119.97
  Up to 14 layers and 3 mic perspectives gives the Fazioli Ebony Concert Grand (complete) added versatility and dynamics,
  ~9000 samples
• Fazioli Ebony Concert Grand (Extreme) Delivery: 31st Oct 2010 £299.96
  The World's Largest sampled grand piano, with up to 127 layers, 5 mic perspectives, with perfect and imperfect instruments, 71,588 samples, 162GB, ext. hard drive, 5 mic positions

The Extreme Edition seems to be the mother of all sample libraries. I am very anxious to get my hands on it!
The "Basic" Version seems to give you the most bang for the buck for just ~50 Euro and 8 dynamic layers is just 2 short of Ivory.
Listening to the sample songs on his website really impressed me. Might consider ordering the Extreme edition.

Video:

Blimey. What sort of computer will run this? If it can be made to work on any decent laptop and sounds good I think this is great value. Looking at the specs of the extreme version I checked the calendar to check it wasn't 1st April...I'm astounded that someone has put this together. 127 layers!

Steve

Looks like there are both EXS24 and Kontakt versions of this. I wonder if it will run on the free Kontakt Player.

To those wondering if it will require a powerful computer to run this. No. The size of the library does not have much effect on the amount of CPU power required. That is determined by how many notes you play per unit of time. Layers and notes you don't play just lay there on the disk and do nothing. But you will need a disk large enough to hold all the data.

EDIT: To answer my own question here is this quote from the Imperfect Samples web site


So I guess this means if you are using a Windows based PC it will cost you an extra $380 or so to use this product if yuo don't already have Kontakt 4. EXS24 is an Apple format.

127 layers sampling is really interesting, however what about half pedaling?

The ad says "70,000 samples". That works out to 795 samples of each key.

I sent an e-mail to Matt asking him about Half-pedalling and Sympathetic String Resonance etc., once he replies I'll post his answer. (or maybe he replies himself)

Divided by 5 mic positions.

Strange that the Youtube demo shows off so few layers!

From their website:

"With a choice of 5 microphone perspectives, up to a record-breaking 127 layers, true staccato, release samples, direct picked strings, perfect and imperfect instruments, piano effects, muted keys, unmuted keys, piano body wood knocks, seat and lid sounds, and many more, the Fazioli Ebony Concert Grand contains over 70,000 samples."

I wonder what "up to" means?

Right now I'm listening to the demos there. The first two seems like quite a muffled / mellow sound, but a quite authentic sound. A lot of pedal noise, especially in the "Gymnopedie No. 1" demo. (Why do people think that that is a good thing?) The third demo is a mix, and the piano is fairly buried.

The last demo combines solo and a bit of mix.

No spanked key demos at all - or the usual 8,000 notes per minute type of demo!

I'm intrigued. I get a real Art Vista type vibe from these demos. I wonder what the playability will be like.

"Up to 127" is in reference to the perspectives.
The "imperfectly" sampled perspectives do not have 127 velocites, only the "perfectly" sampled perspectives. There are 5 perfectly sampled perspectives, which can be seen here:

http://www.imperfectsamples.com/website/samples/fazioliconcertgrand/fazioligrand_extreme.php

You can compare the different perspectives in mix, quite a cool feature I just discovered lol.

http://www.imperfectsamples.com/website/samples/fazioliconcertgrand/fazioligrand_extreme_mixer.php

Huh? What the heck is a "imperfectly sampled perspective" v. a "perfectly sampled perspective"?

Their website says, "The Fazioli Ebony Concert Grand (extreme) contains up to 127 velocity layers . . . "

OK. I just checked out the various perspectives in the mix thingy, and that is indeed cool.

Well, they are clearly saying that the imperfections are much of the charm of the real thing and create a very real, authentic experience. It might just be me but I really don't like all this creaking, banging, scraping and knocking. This does not equate to my ideal piano at all. If I listen to what I would regard as a very well recorded grand piano you hear almost nothing of these sounds...just a little pedal whoosh maybe, certainly no creaking or banging. They have even represented the creaking of the piano stool I think - crazy.

That said, the demos are very mellow and woody. Nice sound but there is no indication of how it would sound played with a bit of gusto. There is a real richness to the bass but unfortunately a slight muddiness too. I haven't discovered the perfect versions yet (Fazioli sans creaking)...must revisit the site and listen because that would be the stuff I'd be interested in. It's a very intriguing product. I think you do need Kontakt or whatever it's called and that costs proper money. Still, certainly worth investigation.

Cheers,

Steve

Yes - I second the request for some demos with more vigorous/forte playing. The existing demos sound very good though!

Greg.

"It might just be me but I really don't like all this creaking, banging, scraping and knocking."

Ah, well. De gustibus, non disputandum est. I always found the 'rest of the sounds' my piano made to have a great charm, and to give it a feeling of aliveness. Haven't listened to this demo; I suppose you could take it too far. My first upright would even resonate a bit when I spoke, but it didn't creak, bang, scrape or knock.

If it's digital, why not provide sliders for each of these?

I can imagine the mix room chatter: "Turn up the creaking a bit... perfect. Now give us a scoch less banging... ahh, just right!"

Ah, there are some more demos on the "demos" page, with a bit more forte playing. I like "Endless World" a lot. (uses compression though)

Greg.

Btw, here's a CD that has purportedly been recorded on a real Fazioli: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ericmuhler I prefer the sounds I'm hearing in these sampled-instrument demos so far.

Greg.

From what I understood, you can disable the creaking, knocking, scraping and "sitting on your chair" sounds.

I really like the "Sin en Mass" demo found under the Complete Edition tab.
The bass is very deep, the higher octaves very crisp and clear.

Yes, remember this a sample library that you use inside either Kontakt 4 (not the free Kontakt Player) or with Apple's EXS24. So you get to use the full power of either Kontakt or EXS24. Both of these programs allow you to do just about anything you can imagine to do with a sound file as well as the mapping from MIDI to samples and specify any level blending or filters to be applied. These full featured sampler programs have great depth, enough that I doubt many people ever understand all the features. Certainly turning down or off the sampled noises would be easy enough.

At this page you can download .wav files of the demos, which is helpful for evaluation purposes.

http://www.imperfectsamples.com/website/samples/fazioliconcertgrand/demos.php

Matt Stedeford answered my e-mail and said that while half-pedalling and sympathetic string resonance are currently not implemented, there will be a free upgrade to all customers with these and some other cool features.

He also said there are no plans for a group plan at this point (discount based on large group orders)

Well, a free upgrade can take a few weeks up to whatever it needed, so I would choose to wait until the functions I need are fully implemented.

Yes. I strongly enhanced the bass for my Vintage D and added a bit of reverb and it sounded much like this Fazioli.... ;-)
Its not that I would dislike the sound, it is impressive, but I think this is not natural bass...
Peter

I think these sample makers should provide a limited trial. There's just no way to tell from demos how the thing will play. The only trial versions I've found of popular samples are for Pianotek and Truepianos (please let me know if if there are others, like Ivory, or Garritan that I missed).

Also it doesn't come with a standalone player so it will cost $500 more for Kontakt or Logic (to get EXS24). At least Alicia's Keys came with a player (but no trial version darn it). Pianotek and Truepianos also play standalone.

Matt did say that one of their samples (the white Grand) has an AU version which I think means it can be loaded into Garageband although I'm not sure how this is done. He also said there would be an AU Fazioli version in a while. He didn't say anything about a trial version though.

No half-pedaling, no string resonance, and no re-pedaling makes it quite unusable for anything other than recording for me.

It makes it not usable for me at all. Its weird to not have these features in a competetive time like this, I will wait for Ivory 2 .

Did anyone try it yet? How is it?

Matt just sent me another e-mail saying that the features below ARE supported. That is very good to know!

Ahh ok so only the extreme version has all those things. Hmmm, I want the complete version, but only if it has the sympathetic resonance and half pedalling, I wonder how fast those will be available.

Is hard to limit what you can do with a sample library. After all it is just data, just a bunch of WAV files. They could offer a trial version that had (say) only the white keys so you could play in "C". But even then, after you loaded it into EXS24 you could with a few mouse clicks tell ESX24 to 'stretch" the natural samples if a black key was played. So I don't know how they could offer a limited trial demo version, not when it goes into EXS24.

Yes you WILL need a sampler to use this but I'd imagine most people who would want this are making recordings and would already have software.

If you don't have Logic, Logic Express will do fine and costs $199. But you CAN use EXS24 based samples inside Garage Band. GB is included free with every Mac and uses the same audio engine as Logic. All the GB instruments are EXS24 based but in GB to don't get a user interface to EXS24 and can only play ready-made EXS24 instruments and can't make your own new ones like in Logic. In GB you simply place the EXS24 file in the "right" folder and GB will notice and offer it to you in a menu.

That said, I'd suggest getting Logic Express. The big things that "Express" lacks are (1) ability to create surround sound mixes. (2) about 9GB less sampled instruments and loops. (3) "mainstage" which is for live performance and controlling MIDI and stage lights and effects. "Express" works best in a studio environment where you are mixing down to stereo.

If you have a PC there is no way around it, you need Kontakt and I think it sells for $380. Silly price when it's competitor EXS24 is "free" when you buy Logic. And the Kontakt interface is just not very good.

For Kontakt instruments, some pianos come with software as well. They are NOT just a bunch of samples. The software is in the form of Kontakt scripts, and they fine tune the behaviour of the instrument and implement advanced features. These scripts can be completely locked/hidden from the end user, too. Does Kontakt support sample encryption yet? (I know Kontakt 4 now supports sample compression, but I'm not sure about encryption. If it does support encryption, do the instruments have to be officially licensed by N.I, or can any Kontakt owner do their own encryption?)

Pianowave provide demo versions of their pianos. The demo versions typically have a few complete octaves in the middle, with the rest of the range being only very sparsely populated. (one sample per octave I think it is). I think they also reduce the sample rate of the samples, to slightly degrade the quality.
I think this is very sensible, because almost all users would not bother using or editing these demo versions rather than purchase the real product, yet the demos still give a reasonably good idea of how the pianos sound and behave.

I was at one of Sydney's major music stores the other day, and I suggested to them that they set up a few workstations with large sample libraries on demo. They weren't interested.

Greg.

Has anyone tried this yet, I am very curious about the playability.

I checked Imperfect Samples recently and saw that they introduced a program called "ISP" (Imperfect Samples Player), so you do not have to own Kontakt to be able to use the library, any regular VST host would do.



Judging by the video, there appears to be no interface to make any real changes besides volume.
Can anyone confirm that?

I'm still interested if someone has played it yet? And does it have half-pedal and harmonic string resonance?

A Fazioli would be great, but I find it hard to believe it can beat Ivory II at this moment.

Well according to Matt's e-mail he sent me, it does support the above features, but I don't know how you can enable / disable or see them with the Imp. Sample Player

I am very interested in reviews about this sample set, but I think I just have to buyy the basic version and test it.

Does anyone know if this would work in a V-Machine?

It seems to me like ideal for recording, but not for playing.

Just imagine you sitting there behind your dp, with your headphones on, playing some nice stuff

Then suddenly you hear in your left ear a loud squeek from a virtual bench, or finger's touching the keys that aren't yours etc.

The whole 'imperfect' idea is great for recording a piece, but for real life playing it seems bad.

The video sounds great but the bass response of the piano is just a tad too much for my taste.

I was right - your headphones do emphasise the bass afterall. :P

Greg.

I switched headphones and now used the ones I use for my AvantGrand, Sony MDR-V600. With the Sony headphones the bass was less than my 'computer' headphones, but still just a tad too bassy. I'm sure this is a personal preference. Since the amount of EQ tweaking would be minimal, I'm sure it's a great sample just the same.

It would be nice though to hear something other than a new age meandering for such a large sample set.

Ok. (I was just using a touch of sarcasm to get you back, that's all)

Greg.

Although, they seem to have a reputation of having a lot of bass afterall:

http://www.headphonereviews.org/headphone/Sony/MDR-V600

I'm using AKG601s, which are classed as reference headphones, with a very natural response. (it was a BIG shock to my system when I switched from more consumer-oriented phones to these, but now the other ones sound silly, and I prefer the AKGs)

Greg.

I used to have the 601's great headphones indeed. However the whole 'reference headphones' is marketing and marketing only, you won't find them being used in studio's. But I would take a 601 over a 701 anyday, that thing was cold.

Wow, you guys have that special skill to derail a thread quickly

B2T: Suprised nobody has purchased this sample library and at least reported back here

Ditto. In particular I'm curious about whether it supports repedalling [*]. Alicia's Keys, which is also a Kontakt 4 instrument, does not, so I'm concerned it's a limitation of Kontakt. For me this is a deal breaker with respect to playability.

[*] Where "repedalling" is defined as being able to rapidly release and repress the sustain pedal to "catch" a decaying note before it fully decays.

Without half-pedaling and symp. resonance in the affordable versions and the Extreme version only being available starting today, it makes a lot of sense that it's not selling well... yet!

Curt

Repedalling is possible in Kontakt.
Galaxy supports it from Kontakt 2 on and later.
It is however not implemented as feature into Kontakt, because Kontakt is a generic sampler. A script must be implemented to support repedalling.

Look here under "Artikulation":
http://www.galaxypianos.com/media/tutorial1.htm

BTW, Syntogys Italian Grand is almost ready yet....

But for those that don't have Kontakt (and won't pay for it), we still have to wait for it to be included in the ISP from Imperfect Samples.

And BTW: Synthogy's Italian Grand is available NOW. Got the email on Thursday. Order now, will ship on Monday. Just wish it was downloadable - like ImperfectSamples.

Well, considering that the Fazioli Extreme is around 162 gigs, it's not surprising that no download option is available.

As for the Synthogy version, it sounds sterile (IMHO of course) and it too is really huge.

True, but he sends it to you pre-installed and authorized on an external hard drive! That's quite nice. The purchase price is very reasonable but what makes it amazing is the fact that the hardware is included!

I'm on the fence between the imperfect samples Fazioli and the Vienna Imperial Bosendorfer... leaning more toward the Fazioli.

I agree about the Synthogy Bosendorfer. It sounds more thin (like a Yamaha) than it does warm...

Curt

I never liked the sound of the Bosendorfer when sampled... yet.

The Vienna sure looks (and sounds!) interesting, but if my memory serves me right, it costs around $800 for a single piano! I also can't find it on their website, any longer. Hmmmmm,...

The Fazioli sure sounds different, but the IS version sounds ridiculously deep to me... and woody as well as organic! However, I'm deeply concerned about the pedal sounds. Wondering if they can be turned off and if they can be lessened if I feel like having them included.

And yes, having it on a portable HD is pretty cool!

Go to DVD instruments. It's never changed location. http://vsl.co.at/en/211/442/478/1701/1305.htm

None of the audio demos work though...

I just sent Matt an email asking him about the adjustability of the Fazioli, the pedal noise in particular... I'll post back.

Curt

Looks like audio demos are back up on VSL.

Thanks, Curt. Was about to send him an e-mail as well about this.

In fact, I have some other questions about the software, so I might as well send him an e-mail anyway. I'll post back my answers as well.

From Matt:

The pedal sounds are in fact not included in the main piano patch; you have to add them afterwards, using the FX patch.

Whilst there are some pedal sounds on some of the demos, if you're talking about the hammer sounds, you can adjust these in the same way you would in a live piano recording; move the microphone perspective. For example P1 has more hammer noise than P3. These are raw recordings, which means nothing has been added afterwards. Treat it as you would a live piano.

There is no DSP on this piano like we are used to with other manufacturers libraries. They are raw files. He's taken care of recording the Fazioli. Now WE get to be engineers and make the piano sound the way we need to make it. I love this concept.

I think I'm sold!
Curt

Here's a more elaborate response to this. I'll preface his e-mail by stating the questions I asked ;



And now, for his answers ;



This is sounding more interesting all the time. The sound truly feels organic. My *sole* reservation is the reliance on Kontakt which I find to be a powerful program with the worst GUI (graphical user interface) I have ever seen. There's no way to change it and everything is way too small, making it tough (for me, anyway) to use.

If I were on a Mac, things might be different, but there's no stand-alone GUI like there is for Ivory or QLP among others. So far, that's my main disappointment.

Agreed.
- I don't like the dependence on Kontakt.
- I DO like the rawness of the recordings.
- It's a little more than HALF the cost of the Vienna Imperial.
- However, the VSL Imperial has a nice standalone GUI.

I suppose that I don't NEED a standalone GUI. I have enough engineering experience to plug this into a channel strip in SONAR and treat it like a recorded piano and apply some nice tube compression and EQ and a nice convolution reverb and get some pretty outstanding results.

Curt

That's just it. I'm not an engineer and figuring this stuff out will be a *painful* experience!

Wish I could find a step-by-step stripped down tutorial on how to make this work in Kontakt properly.

As it stands, its dependency on Kontakt is its biggest flaw, IMHO... no matter how good it performs.

I'd love an option to have a standalone GUI like most of its competitors.

What would be great is if Matt could cook up a deal where he could bundle a Kontakt Lite version of the application along with his piano. It would certainly open up his market a bit. He even states that his piano is optimized to run in this player (or will run in an optimized state) so I have to assume that it will run in a less than optimal state in SONAR or Pro Tools as a VSTi plug-in.

Dang.

From what I understand, there are some limitations within Kontakt Lite that wouldn't run this software to its optimal level... which is probably why this is not even in the cards.

The 2 most severe limitations, IMHO, is the lack of a stand-along GUI and its dependency on Kontakt. If either of these could be fixed, I'd be a happy camper.

As it is now, I'm on the fence about purchasing this application. Not to sound petty, but at the price these things sell for, I'd like to be able to run it as I wish and it doesn't seem like that'd be possible right this moment.

I might send a quick e-mail back to Matt asking him if he plans on addressing these concerns sooner rather than later.

Anybody else take the risk and try out the extreme versions, I'm really interested but I want to hear real world demos and playability.

We really need a demo version to try out.

As I explained before, the library is 168 gigs big. A demo ain't gonna happen at all. Ever.

Same thing with Vienna Imperial.

Synthogy doesn't offer a demo of Ivory and people have no problem forking over the dough.

If you have any doubts, e-mail Matt at Imperfect Samples. He's prompt, courteous, and isn't afraid of writing elaborate replies to any question.

Hello,

After reading this thread i downloaded the basic version yesterday with 8 layers, price 47 euro.

I'm still figuring out how to use the bonus fx (lid, knocks, pedals) in Logic EXS .
I do like the basic sound with the hammer noises, very different compared to Ivory or Vienna Imperial.
Perfect for my imperfect playing :-)

Hope to read here from users testing the "extreme" version!

Enjoy playing!

It does not have to. Kontakt itself runs as a plug-in inside DAW software. I find I actully get better resolt running Kontakt inside Logic than Kontakt stand alone.

I think he has all bases coved as it runs as a VST/AU plugin which means it can run stand alone if you have one of those minimum sized "host" programs that do nothing but runs the VST.

The second way to run it is inside Kontakt while runing Kontkt as a stand alone. Then the third option is ruing Kontakt as a plug-in

Also there is an ESX-II version for use with Apple's sampler.

I think he has everyone covered.

You mean like Cantabile?



Not gonna be helpful to those that don't/won't own Kontakt.



I'm still not convinced. If I don't own Kontakt and want to run this as a plug-in in SONAR so I can record and edit my performance in MIDI, according to your explanation I'm NOT covered?

Curt

I'm no where a professional pianist but having a really good sound really inspires you to keep learning.

Post at least a quick demo . At least some arpeggios, just to experience the general tone.

OK fair enough, so i posted a very short demo on soundcloud, here is the link : http://soundcloud.com/mnoizz/fazioli-demo

Just some playing, no fx, bounced in Logic to mp3.

Enjoy!

It appears that you could use the free ISP (Imperfect Samples Player) for this:
http://www.imperfectsamples.com/website/is_player/info.php

Greg.

As I said above, it runs as a VST/AU. The VST can run inside SONAR (I assume SONAR can host VSTs)

Thx, it sounds impressive!

Edit: other tracks are very nice too!

Impressive, so this is the basic version, can't imagine how the extreme would sound. Doesn't sound sterile.

Lots of damper noise tho... did you add that in or is it all native to that perspective?

Curt

Wow... to be honest I am blown away. The gritty realism is astonishing. When people said Ivory sounded sterile, I never exactly knew what they meant - now I know.

Edit: this is in response to Mnoiz sound sample

See if you have the same reaction as me:

Visit the Imperfect Samples website. Listen to the "Fur Elise" demo with a good pair of phones. About six notes into it there is a note, much louder and of course has a different timbre, but this note does a major shift in its position in the sound field. The previous, softer samples, of this same note are slightly to the right of center and then the loud one comes in from the far left.

Listen a couple of times. This would drive me crazy while playing or recording. And this is in the opening notes of a demo.

Your take?

Which perspective was being used?

And yes, now people are starting to realize what I'm talking about when I say Ivory sounds sterile.

I'm hearing a clunky key noise type sound....sounds like a very old worn out piano. I'll stick with my clean Ivory II sound thank you.

Yes, we know you love Ivory. Move along, now.

Sheesh ; talk about sounding like a broken record. Do you have to pollute every thread with your limitless love for the product?

Do you have to pollute every thread for your hatred of Ivory ??

I'm just saying I hear lots clunking keys noise in that sample. Is that something that's supposed to be desireable ??

Not to me.

?? Man, get some logic courses. Your lame comeback makes no sense at all.

Getting back on topic, the product is made by a company called "Imperfect Samples!" Duh. lol!

To some people, this represents less sterility and more of an organic experience. There is a "perfect" set of samples in the Extreme version for those who wish to eliminate these noises.

Let's keep this on topic.

The extreme version is $599.99. Too rich for me.

Fair enough. However, it *does* come on a portable hard drive, already pre-installed. The HD itself is more expensive than DVDs, but considering you didn't appreciate the idea of installing QLP's 35 DVDs, I could only imagine how much you'd "enjoy" installing this library. :p

Price is a good reason to not want to buy a product like this. Another is the sound.

However, I have yet to hear the perfect samples from this library.

The Extreme version is 162 gigs, which would be too expensive for me to put on an ssd drive. Even Ivory II is large at 77 gigs, I was only able to put two of the three piano's onto my 64 gig ssd drive.

As I explained in other threads, an SSD isn't a necessity. Optical storage is cheap and fast enough to keep up.

It's your decision to limit yourself this way. I have never had a single dropout with an optical hard drive while using any such product, yes, including QLP.

It wouldn't make much sense for the manufacturer of this product to supply it on a drive that wouldn't be fast enough to access all the data, therefore creating dropouts, would it?

Maybe you don't understand, I WANTED to use an solid state drive to see how it would perform with quality sound samples. It's an experiment. This is why the size or the program is important to me. It has to fit on a ssd that I can afford...right now that's about a 64 gig drive....next year larger ssd's are going to become available and I want to be ready for them.

I'm curious ; what benefits do you believe to get from an SSD? It won't affect sound quality and optical drives are already fast enough for these applications, so I'm genuinely wondering what the point of the experiment is.

From day-to-day use, you'd benefit a lot more having your OS on the SSD than a piano sampling application.

Strat: optical storage? You've said that at least twice now so I don't think it's a casual error. Yet I can't imagine that optical media would be nearly fast enough, given that seek latencies are like 2 orders slower than hard disks, and throughput of the fastest Bluray is still 2-3x slower (but even if throughput was faster, seek latencies would kill you).

Are you really meaning optical here? If so, what's your drive and what media are you using?

Optical refers to regular hard drives. It specifically refers to how the device operates (i.e. a platform with a reading device as opposed to, say, an SSD with memory banks)

Any modern optical hard drive is fast enough to keep up with the demands of piano sampling applications.

Near zero latency, quiet operation, less heat, no moving parts, instant access to samples, It's a seperate drive from my main drive, so if there's a problem with my main drive, my sample drive will be isolated from that.

I haven't gotten around to installing an OS on ssd yet, so I don't know how well it'll perform. Next year, Intel is planning on releasing larger, cheaper ssd's, so I'm holding off on buying any more right now until the prices come down, which they should in the first quarter of next year. For my main OS drive, I'd like to have a minimum of 250 gigs, which would be very expensive right now.

This is how I learn things, by just jumping in and doing.

Strat, I believe you mean magnetic versus optical. Most hard drives with spinning plateres are magnetic. Optical would imply a CD, DVD or Blu-Ray device.

Aldo

Correct, Aldo. Optical would be CD/DVD, which is light-based (hence, optical), and quite slow by computer standards. Hard drives are magnetic, not optical. The advantage of SSD over hard drive is in greater speed, quieter operation, and being safer for mobile use (i.e. not nearly as susceptible to failure as a hard drive is if a unit is dropped or otherwise subjected to sudden shocks or motion during operation).

Not quite. "Optical hard drive" is an oxymoron.

If that were true, I wouldn't see that pesky "Slow disk" light constantly in Ivory (on a 1TB Seagate Barracuda). SSD is the cure for that.

Another reason I want to go with ssd's is for multi-tasking purposes. Let's say you want to play your samples and record them at the same time. If you have everything on one hard drive, you're asking the hard drive work like crazy to keep up with you. It has to search for samples as well as keep the recording program going, which can result in latency problems, stuttering, clicks, pops, and lock ups. I'm not experiencing any of those problems with my ssd set up, but I have had problems while using your standard hard drive.

SSD's add a whole new dimension to my computer, it's like having 128 gigs of ram memory available to store my samples on. (I have two 64 bit ssd's) Another really nice feature is that the time it takes to load up samples is greatly reduced.

Thanks for the demo. I have to say, I'm starting to get interested in this sample set. Right now I'm listening with some VSS3 reverb from TC Powercore. Very enjoyable. Of course the essential big question will be playability. I like the tonal range. Quite expressive.

OK, this demo was made with the basic version (47 euro), no fx and nothing added.

Here is the "official" info included:
Fazioli Ebony Concert Grand (Basic) Instruments:
Mic Perspective 1 (2 inches from the soundboard, for a larger-than-life sound):
Fazioli Concert Grand: (8 layers)
Ebony Grand FX: (piano performance effects, pedal sounds, wood knocking, lid open and close, direct string glissandos)

If you can hear your regular hard drives operating, you probably have it lying next to you. I use an HTPC so acoustics are important since I don't want a pesky noisy hard drive ruining the mood of a movie. My drives are silent enough that my own breathing and beating of my heart is more noticeable. :p

As for less heat, unless you're into overclocking, there's not much of a purpose there. And you can easily get instant access to samples. There isn't a latency from using an SSD as opposed to regular hard drive when playing a sample.

If you can spot the differences, you're superhuman.


That's because the Barracuda has always been about bang-for-the-buck storage ; not about speed. The Western Digital Velociraptor series is all about speed. Check out the prices & performance.

FWIW, I own regular Caviar WD hard drives and never have experienced any latency playing anything, while performing a host of other operations simultaneously.

I do work in IT and can configure things to a point where I can squeeze as much performance out of them as possible, but in all honesty, I don't think you need any particular knowledge to just choose the right components for the job. A PC built part by part, with quality parts, without any weak links will perform fantastically and won't require an SSD to avoid dropouts.

Having said that, I am aware of how people choose their PCs, so possibly this has something to do with computers that are underperforming somehow.

Nevertheless, I'll stop discussing this particular bit. If you feel like you need to spend more to get rid of a problem that can be fixed without spending more, it's not really my problem.

My apologies for attempting to add reasoning and instilling the idea that spending more money is unnecessary for this application.

Spend away.

You work in IT and don't know what an optical drive is?? Hmm, interesting!

And go ahead and run your piano library from a brand new (modern) 5400rpm hard drive and then report back on the performance results...

Curt

That's 7200 RPMs. You don't know of hard drives that run at more than 5400 RPMs? Hmmmm, interesting. :p

No wonder you're having performance problems if you solely use 5400 RPM drives. Yeesh...

I suggest you stop extolling the virtues of mechanical hard drives for applications where access times are important: if you think that a 6ms (average, for 15k rpm HDs, which aren't cheap) access time compares to a 0.1ms (average, for a bog-standard X25-M intel ssd) access time you aren't pushing your system hard at all... even short-stroking on a large hard drive there is no way you can get even close to the same performance as an SSD, let alone if you go to PCIe SSDs which are even faster than SATA (although of course at a price premium).

If 'magically' by 'setting up things correctly' mechanical hard drives (which nobody has ever called 'optical') could be made to perform as well as an SSD people would not be spending significant $$$ converting their mission critical SANs to SSD (considering said SANs usually already ran fibre channel 15k rpm hard drives usually).

As much as you 'work in IT' you might want to re-evaluate your contributions to the thread because it's hard to believe blanket statements like "a well put together PC won't have dropouts even on a mechanical h.d." when most people working with large sample libraries can easily show you that's not the case at all.

And trying to get back on topic, given that this sample library has 127 velocity layers in the 'extreme' version, I assume it's going to be large enough to bring a mechanical h.d. to its knees in live playing if liberal amounts of sustain pedal were used, it'd be interesting if anybody owning it could chime in with the performance they are seeing on their system in terms of dropouts etc.

My point, Strat, was that you can't assume that every "modern" hard drive is going to be spinning at 7200rpm minimum. The majority of PCs still sell with 5400rpm drives. But you knew that, right??


Could not agree MORE with this statement. It's really no surprise that you end up in an arguement in every thread you post to.

Curt

And this is especially true of laptops (sometimes even slower than 5400!), which is often what people want to use with their music equipment (fewer wires going everywhere, usually quieter, takes less space, can be transported for live performance).

My Seagate is a 7200 RPM disk. Has a 32MB cache, read throughput is a very standard 80-100MB/s, and seek time (actual, not spec sheet) of 8-10ms. This is a typical hard disk by just about any measure.

You say that "any modern hard drive" can handle this, but then you cite the VelociRaptor, which is among the most expensive, fastest hard disks money can buy.



Well, since we're whipping it out, my day job has me involved in engineering scalable architectures for globally distributed infrastructure to support many tens of millions of subscribers.

We've been looking very seriously at flash storage for production deployments. There are a lot of caveats and issues you need to be aware of with flash storage, this much is true, but for any storage profile that involves lots of random access, flash storage is simply demolishing spinning rust thanks to seek times measured in usec, rather than msec, to say nothing about the power savings (directly and indirectly due to lower heat output).

When you're sitting in front of a software piano, latencies are important. 10-15ms is a fairly common processing latency for the audio path (from the time it takes to hit a key and hear a sound), and that's already starting to push the boundary of being perceptible. If you have to add another 10-30ms (for multiple seek+reads, since it will probably also pull in the release sample if you have them enabled), even assuming that doesn't manifest as a dropout, you will notice the latency, especially if it's inconsistent.

So yes, you can run out and buy a VelociRaptor, which will halve the typical hard disk seek times. But even that isn't guaranteed, especially if your processing latency is already pushing it (maybe you're using USB audio/midi interface?). Or you can buy an SSD and be guaranteed seek times won't stand in your way. And lower power consumption, silent and cool operation are added bonuses.

Clearly, you either don't own a library or have never played one. And saying "most" is also wrong.

On several PCs with plain regular 7200RPM hard drives, I was able to successfully run QLP & Ivory with no dropouts whatsoever. Moreover, thousands of people were successful in running Ivory on regular hard drives for years, even before SSDs ever existed.

This whole "I *need* an SSD to run a library" viewpoint is pure bologna and this can be confirmed by the thousands of people who, as I said, ran Garritan, Galaxy, Ivory, QLP, and other libraries on regular hard drives.

So please ; understand, or at least have the experience, what is necessary before claiming this or that.

Unless you're saying that I, along with thousands of others have access to some magic PC powder that makes our libraries run flawlessly?

A PC is made of a lot of various components. Most people just buy whatever's available at Dell or other manufacturers and it's no secret that they skimp on components to keep the prices down. They'll make sure they have big stats that are marketable to people who aren't knowledgeable enough to know the difference between a good and bad component "marriage" and then complain prematurely that their PC is too slow.

Couple that with how people use their PCs in the first place (for instance, installing tons of crap and never uninstalling anything at all, not understanding how to optimize Windows services, etc), and it's no surprise to me at all that some people are frustrated that their PCs are seemingly overwhelmed by these libraries' real-time performance demands.

The rest of your post is pure speculation...

Oh, and considering that Ivory and a slew of other libraries have been released years before SSDs ever existed, if what you're saying would have an once of truth to it, companies like Synthogy would have gone bankrupt as nobody would keep on buying their products.

Wrong. Most PC manufacturers (or should I say "assemblers") will to keep the costs down. That's an old tactic and frankly, I fail to see the logic into thinking that an SSD is a necessity to run these libraries when a 7200RPM hard drive could be bought instead. A customer's ignorance in the matter shouldn't give way to speculation based on no experience whatsoever.

It's no wonder I get in an argument when pure bologna is propogated. You shouldn't be surprised that I correct you when you post that regular hard drives spin at 5400 RPM. That is 100% wrong, plain & simple.

And that's why external hard drives exist.

The point I was trying to make (and maybe I could have phrased it better) is that even with one of the most expensive hard drives, you'd still end up saving money versus buying an SSD of equal capacity and there would be no dropouts.

For the record, I own three Seagate Barracuda 1.5tb hard drives. I've installed QLP & Ivory on the one that doesn't have Windows on it and have never had an issue. Same goes for the Western Digital Caviar drive that I own as well. And the Maxtor I had previously.


And I'm sure that's relevant because that runs on Windows, right?


True, but I never argued otherwise. A common misconception in this thread is that I'm saying that plain regular hard drives are better than SSD. I never said that ; I said that using an SSD is not a necessity. Some people are arguing otherwise when I, along with thousands of others, have been/are running Ivory, QLP, and other libraries on regular 7200 RPM hard drives with no dropouts whatsoever.


People in love with statistics often fail to realize or to remind themselves that there's theory and then there's real-life. I'm aware of this. However, in real-life there is no discernable lag between pressing a note and hearing its sound on my setup. Again, thousands of others are perfectly happy as well. There are some who experience latency, but again in most cases, it can be easily fixed, as it most often comes down to knowing how to troubleshoot and fix these issues.


All true. But again, it's not necessary. And in the case of the bigger libraries, they won't fit on the small capacity being currently offered by SSDs. Or, they can fit... but only if you own a 2000$ SSD.

People seem to want to argue until they're blue in the face that an SSD is a necessity to run these libraries. That is 100% false. There *are* advantages to using an SSD, but stating that without one, you're guaranteed to have performance issues is plain wrong.

I'll buy an SSD once capacities have caught up with regular hard drives. Am I currently suffering from performance issues, dropouts, and other problems when playing QLP despite not owning one? Not at all.

Velocityraptor is so expensive that indeed SSD's are a better alternative.

The other alternative is buy a cheap and fast 1TB drive and use only 25-30% of it. Access time is a little bit worse than velocityraptor but transferrate is faster.

I have read this in a technical report where they investigated the performance.

Unless you want more storage space.

Then, SSDs are way more expensive.

Some of it does, yes. Not that the platform significantly changes the relative performance of SSDs mind you.


Surely the irony of this statement isn't lost on you? You've made very bizarre technical blunders for someone who purports to work in the field. (Claiming there are no random access benefits to SSDs and calling hard disks "optical" are two that come to mind.)

You're claiming that some of us are arguing that SSDs are a necessity. I'm certainly not. I'm claiming there are benefits, and the performance advantages of SSD are quite well established. Since you've said in a prior post you now accept this, I think we can all finally agree.

In my case, putting the Ivory Library on SSD addressed a problem where I was experiencing dropouts in the morning after leaving my system idle overnight.

The root cause is almost certainly Windows brain damage: the samples should have been preserved in fs cache, but clearly they were being evacuated. Or Ivory itself could help by actually allocating and using far more memory than it currently does: it's only using 1/8th of my system memory. But since I can't fix either of those things, the simplest solution was found with SSD. (And I'm not entirely sure a VelociRaptor would have addressed this particular issue, either.)

Guess there was a miscommunication, then.


Uh, no. I can almost bet money on this that Windows wasn't the cause of this issue. And yes, there are ways to get around this. You could have created a RAM drive and buffered all the files through there, assuming you have a few gigs of RAM. It's strange that you wouldn't have thought of such a simplistic yet effective solution, but it was available to you.

Even in QLP, I could buffer the Steinway samples if I had any issues by simply discarding the Sostenuto samples.

It would have taken me about 10 min to create the RAM drive and buffer these files. And that's assuming I'd have any issues or latency. And I have experienced none in all my years of using these sampling programs.

You also could have moved these sampling files to the outer edges of the drive therefore making them much quicker to access.

And I can almost bet that it is, because once those samples are in fs cache and the machine is otherwise idle (i.e. scanning and indexing features disabled) they should remain cached. This is how proper operating systems behave.


The reason this simplistic solution is not effective for me is because I reboot this machine. A lot. It's also a kludge to work around what is clearly ineffective use of available memory.

Also, what files would I be copying over to the RAM drive (which is what I understand you're suggesting)? AFAIK Ivory's Library is all or nothing, and the German D (the only sample set I play) is about 27G. And I'm not aware of any feature in Cantabile that uses some other location as a cache.


Short stroking the disk will marginally improve seek time (obviously it does nothing for rotational latency). Even if it halves my seek times (which would be a pretty good result) that's not nearly fast enough for realtime access.

I should probably have mentioned that the hard disk was cut into two partitions, the first being 300GB and available to Windows, and that Synthogy was the first and only thing on that partition. So the sample library was very likely already on the outer tracks.

My two 64 gig ssd's act like 128 gigs of ram dedictated to holding my libraries. Imagine a computer with 128 gigs of ram....that's what you get. Why wouldn't I want ssd's ?? They are simple to install, simple to initialize, simple to format, simple to load samples to.

After playing around with them a little, I think they're great !!

Not sure how we got on the SSD versus hard drive debate, but here's a topic for that debate:
SSD vs Hard Drive...Fight!

Now, can we get back to the Imperfect Samples discussion?

Aldo

Thank you! I keep checking this topic, hoping to read about the Fazioli . . .

New Zealand dollars? The website is showing $449.23 USD.

Still not cheap, but it looks like you can buy the basic version and then just pay the difference to upgrade later to any other version. That really is a nice upgrade path.

And with the basic version at only $65, that makes it pretty low risk to try for a while, and then upgrade later if you like the sound and want more dynamic levels, mic positions, etc.

Aldo

It's $599.99 at this website, I don't know where you're seeing the $449.00 price you mentioned. Check this link ....

http://www.imperfectsamples.com/website/store/index.php

It really doesn't matter to me as I'm no longer in the market to buy anymore samples at this time. The C7 in Ivory II is my goto piano now.

Was looking here:
http://www.imperfectsamples.com/website/samples/fazioliconcertgrand/chooseversion.php

Looks like the two links are different. On the link in your post, you could buy the complete version, and then upgrade to the extreme version for a total of about $465. However, the extreme version when purchased alone is $599.

Looks like the difference covers the cost of the hard drive, packaging, and shipping. Maybe.

What Native Instruments plugin is required to host the Fazioli? I understand that it is the full version of Kontakt, but

at http://www.imperfectsamples.com/website/samples/fazioliconcertgrand/index.php it says:

Formats supported: "Kontakt 4 or higher", but it also says "to use the library, Kontakt 2.2 or later is required".

I happen to have Kontakt 3, hence my confusion.

Kontakt 4 is required to host the Fazioli.

You can use other applications, but use the ISP software he offers.

I'm using that 'til my Kontakt 4 upgrade arrives (actually Komplete 7 upgrade, which includes Kontakt 4).

Looks like the website is corrected. Prices in £ are all the same now. USD are approximate. The actual conversion is handled in real-time by PayPal. Right now, somewhere around $65 for the basic and $475 for the extreme version.

Anyone using this piano? Any user feedback? Playability? The official demos sound pretty compelling, at least for my style.

Lawrence

I heard someone before saying that they liked some of Imperfect Samples stuff, although I don't think I've heard anyone talking about the Fazioli.

The extreme version ships on an external hard drive. Cazy times.

I don't have the Fazioli, but I do have the Walnut Grand Extreme. Since I use Logic, I started off using the EX24 version which sounded very good, it somehow sounds more like a 'real' grand than other virtual pianos. However, using it with Kontakt makes it a completely different beast, so many options compare to the EX24 version, like mixing of mikes positions, sympathetic resonance, pedal/finger noise etc. My favorite is the 'close' mikes position, to me it's the closest thing to paying a real grand. The only downside is that using it with Logic plus Kontakt can be troublesome, but then I wouldn't recommend the EX24 version either because it's really only half of what it can do. So if you don't have Kontakt, might as well get the other versions instead of extreme. The reason I didn't get the Fazioli is that it doesn't have sympathetic resonance, which is weird as they could have just added it in easily.

That is a mind-blowing omission if so. Does it have half-pedal capability?

Someone needs to grab all these sample makers and tell them it's not about the number of layers, it's about the playability factor: resonances, partial pedal and repedalling, various noises, etc.

Only Galaxy and Ivory (and maybe Garritan) seem to pay attention to the important stuff, which I guess is why that's what everyone buys.

The Fazioli has the following features in the Pro, Complete and Extreme versions. (Not the Basic version, though):

- muting / level control of noises: Pedal FX only
- velocity mapping from host (Kontakt): yes
- sympathetic resonance: yes
- half pedal: yes
- re-pedalling: no

The Fazioli has got to be one of the most realistic sampled pianos I have ever played.

I recently sent a test recording (using the Fazioli (Basic) version) to an esteemed colleague, who observed:

"Just listened to your recording, thanks. I may have said this before about other sounds but this time it's different. This sounded like you had placed a pair of mics in front of a large (and nice sounding) grand piano, simple as that. Don't know what more I can say. Completely authentic!"

Sounds tempting.... any chance of uploading it here? (Not the sample, just the sample you did Lawrence. If your impressed, I'm interested!)

Cheers,

John

John -

I've sent you a PM.

Regards,

Lawrence

Sorry, my bad, since sympathetic resonance was only ever mentioned as a feature with the Walnut Grand, I just assumed the Fazioli doesn't have it, otherwise I would have ordered it at the same time, now I'd have to order it and pay for the postage again.

Do you use Kontakt with a DAW? Did you have any problem with it?

According to this review, the Fazioli doesn't have sympathetic resonance:

http://vpiano.net/imperfect%20samples%20fazioli%20review.htm

and they were reviewing the complete version with Kontact 4. Maybe they added it recently.

The above features I mentioned have been added to the Fazioli, obviously after the referenced review was written. I believe that Kontakt 4 (full version) is required. I specifically asked the developer about - muting / level control of noises, velocity mapping from host (Kontakt), sympathetic resonance, half pedal and re-pedalling.

Thanks, I got confirmation from Imperfect Samples too, will be ordering the extreme version this week.

Please check back and let us know what your experience is like after you have played it for a while. I'm sure we are all interested to know how good the extreme version is.

I would be very interested in this too. I did test out an earlier version of the Imperfect Samples Fazioli and although it sounded gorgeous and very authentic I just could not achieve enough dynamic variation from my keyboard to make it playable for me. It may of course have been completely redesigned since then (6 months ago) so I would love to know if this this issue has been resolved.

Which version did you test? Basic? Pro? Complete? Extreme?

I have the Basic and Pro. I find the dynamic range is greater with the Pro (12 layers) v. Basic (8 layers). I'm using it with the MP10, and find it a superb controller. No complaints about the dynamic range with the 12 layer.

Did you try various velocity curves on your keyboard?

I just had it on order, my Walnut Grand took over 2 weeks to get to me so I doubt I'd get Fazioli any sooner than that. Sure I will do a posting when I got it.

However, basing it on my Walnut Grand Extreme, I doubt the Fazioli Extreme would sound a lot better than the Pro or the Complete version. The Extreme versions are just more versatile because of the extra miking positions, they do make it sound like completely different pianos. For instant, the 'close' setting is very intimate sounding and great for jazz or as piano backing for a nice deep baritone or contralto voice, but totally not suitable for a lot of classical pieces in my opinion. The 'Wet' setting is for those who want it to have a natural room reverb sound, whilst the 'dry' setting is for those who want to use or program their own room environment or reverb. More useful for music production than musicians I think.

Here is a screen shot of the Fazioli (Pro) running in Kontakt 4. This demonstrates the various parameters that can be adjusted.





Here is a second image, showing the drop down for resonance parameters:





Here is a an image showing the velocity editor:




I have not needed to use the velocity editor, since the Fazioli works perfectly (for me) with the MP10.

will the walnut grand and the fazioli run in the Kontakt 4 player? or does one have to buy the full version Kontakt to use them. Pardon my ignorance but hosting programs vs standalone players has always been a point of confusion for me. I have Kontakt 4 installed on my music PC running Alicia Keys. and i know Vintage D can run directly on the Kontakt player also. Can the imperfect samples programs do the same, or do they require a full-scale sampler/host?

thanks

EDIT: never mind, it says right on their site that it requires full Kontakt and not the kontakt player. why would the developer do that with such a high end sample program?

DOUBLE SECRET PROBATION EDIT: well i guess i ought to do more investigation before i blast away. another place in the site describes the Imperfect Samples Player download- for those who can't afford the luxury of Kontakt. it appears to be for the more basic level programs (those that can be used VST/AU) but that is probably good enough for most of us...

At http://www.imperfectsamples.com/website/samples/steinwayconcertgrand/steinwaygrandpiano.php it says:

Features:
Over 54GB
4 Unique Microphone Perspectives (Player, Close, Room, Dry)
24 bit audio fidelity
Adjustable Piano FX:
Lid sounds, human fingers, pedals, wood knocks, more..
Up to 100 layers spread across 4 perspectives
TrueStaccato™
TrueCrotchet™
Sympathetic Resonance*
Half-pedalling*
Custom Velocity Mapping*
On the fly sample loading & real-time FX controls*
Rich, organic sound
Realistic

* Starred features available for full Retail Kontakt 4.2 or higher only.

I don't know, though, if this means you could run it in Kontakt Player, absent the features. (I believe you would really want them, though).

Best advice is to contact the developer:

Matt Stedeford <info@imperfectsamples.com>

The free Kontakt Player cannot be used for any of Imperfect Samples' pianos, the full Kontakt 4 or 5 is needed. I think it's more likely that Kontak didn't want 3rd party products using it than IS not wanting to use it.

The basic, pro and complete versions work with the free Imperfect Samples Player (ISP) but it doesn't work for the extreme versions.

I bought Komplete Ultimate primary for Kontakt 5 to use the Walnut Grand Extreme even it can be used with my Logic's EX24, but using it with Kontakt 4 or 5 is really much preferable if you want all the features.

Well, at least you still get the Rich, organic sound and Realistic without spending another $399 for the full Retail Kontakt. You just can't play it with Sympathetic Resonance or Half-pedalling, which therefore apparently aren't required for Rich, organic sound and Realistic.

Hmm ...

Fazioli (Pro) demo clips. This is the 12 layer version, with Mic Perspective #1 (2" from soundboard) which is described as "for a warm, organic sound".

Clip 1

Clip 2

Clip 3

Clip 4