Hi again all,

having used my ETD for three weeks now, I now understand what many of you have been saying about the device slowing you down at first. Funny how you have to train yourself much in the same way as in achieving aural tuning speed - that is, making the coordination of it all become second nature.

You experienced ETD users in this forum - how fast can you do a pitch raise using your device? And, do you go by wedges or by strip mutes?

I understand why RCT advocates A0 -> C8, tuning the unisons as you go. One indeed gets very close to the desired pitch using that method, because the overpull is calculated with that procedure in mind. But it still feels awkward to me, so any hints on swift moving would be most welcome.

This said, just for the fun of it, I pitch-lowered a seasonally high-pitched piano from 445 to 442 the other day using RCT's "smart tune" mode, the recommended A0 -> C8 procedure, and some rubber wedges, tuning everything by the RCT (including the unisons).

Besides making a few aurally justified choices at the break, and adjusting a few unisons a tiny bit, it sounded very well indeed, and all of this in 45-50 minutes. Impressing programming right there.

I can do a rough pitch raise in approx 20 minutes with either of my ETD using wedges, but then I strip mute to do the final tuning.

Pat,

Time required depends on how off pitch the piano is, and how all-over-the-map the pitch is. With Tunelab at least, if the piano is more than 50c flat, it won't read the next note up in auto-up mode, so I either have to set the timed switch or switch to the next note manually, which I prefer.

Pitch adjustments of 20-30 cents or less can be done in 15-20 minutes, but if I spend 5-10 minutes more adjusting the pitch, the fine tuning won't take as long. Like keyboardman, I strip mute the second time through after going from A-0 to C8 with only one rubber mute the first time through.

To make things easier for the second tuning, I usually set the pins and render the strings on the pitch adjustment, so setting the pins when doing fine tuning is a piece of cake.

Yesterday I tuned a Kimball console that had been left untuned in a garage for 20 years or so. It was 50-150 c flat, so I had to go through it 3 times. This took me a full 1 1/2 hours to turn the 660 pins....the $200.00 cash was good, though!

With rubber wedges and a paps mute it takes me about 15- 20 min to do a pitch raise. I don't fuss much with setting the pin other than swinging a little sharp, banging the note and a bump or nudge on the hammer to drop to target pitch. Even though the software does a good job on the proper overpull I rarely find the notes good enough to just leave as they are so I feel that setting the pin for the pitch raise and any other unnesasary fiddling robs you of time better spent on the fine tuning. If you learn to use your ear to select the proper stretch and partials for the bass along with using the equalizer sliders in RCT, there is much less left to correct on the tuning by ear later.

That's quite an amazing number to me, amounting to 4-5 seconds per string. I don't think I could move the mutes that fast, even without any tuning!

I guess speed comes with experience...

Kees

Calculated overpull on bass strings is not a good idea in my opinion because on some pianos the tension can be very close to the break point.
I pitch raise starting at the lowest plain steel unison and after that I aurally tune the bass. This way the bass strings are never overpulled.
Takes about 20 minutes.
I like to reset the calc every M3rd and do unisons as I go.

You aren't setting pins or doing test blows on a pitch raise - play the note, pull on the lever, and you are done, next pin.

If I'm using Tunelab to raise pitch, set pins, test blow, it's an overpull tuning, not a pitch raise - at least that's what I call it. Overpull tunings take a longer, and are more accurate than a pitch raise.

On the bass, I use no overpull on the single strings, 10% on the bichords, and 15% on the bichords on the treble bridge.

If there is rust present, I won't overpull at all on the bass. Better to tune 2-3 times than break a string.

I guess it's just a matter of semantics. I call any tuning where I'm not trying to be absolutely precise a pitch raise.

I am not a fast tuner. It takes me 1 hour to pitch raise a piano. I do set pins as I go. I am not comfortable at all by leaving unstable pins.

I guess I am wrong on that one because they are to be moved on the fine tuning anyway.

With my Verituner and two rubber wedges I tune unisons as I go, I follow the sequence: A4 (only midle string), A3 (only midle string), from lowest tenor note up to C8, then from highest bass note to A0.

The maximum overpull I use for the treble is 32%. If the treble needs more overpull, I prefere to do a second pitch raise. For the bass I usually use an over pull of 12% to 16%.

If the piano is flat more than 50 cents, I do a first pass without overpull, manually selecting notes on the ETD. Then a second pass with over pull and then the aural fine tuning.

Great stuff, people! Are most of you pulling in the unisons by ear (which, at least at this stage, is much faster for me)?

One big advantage of TuneLab's spectrum display (like an oscilloscope) is that you can see separate peaks for each string, without using mutes.

I go through one quick pass, no mutes, no pin-setting, in 16-20 minutes. Then I go back and fine-tune, then I use Steve Brady's forearm-bashing to test for unstable unisons, and do a cleanup pass on anything that has moved. About 1.5 to 1.75 hours total.

--Cy--

Yes, I do unisons by ear. I tune one string to the spike on the spectrum graph, aurally tune string two to string one, then move the mute up to the next note and tune string three to the first two.

How I approach a pitch raise depends on how far off it is. Generally, if a piano is fairly close to pitch (for example, if A4 is beating with the fork / reference, but is still sounding like one note, and not two distinct pitches), I may attempt to fine tune the entire piano in one pass. If it's more than about 8 to 10 cents off, though, I'm more likely to do a pitch raise. When tuning pianos that are relatively close to pitch, I usually do unisons as I go, using a couple rubber mutes, without strip muting the piano.
Between about 10 cents and maybe 50 to 75 cents or so, I generally like to overpull as necessary so that when I go through the fine tuning the second time, the strings will be fairly close. I may use a strip mute for the pitch raise pass, bringing the unisons in after I've raised one string of each note. If I'm using an ETD (right now my SAT III is having problems so I've sent it in for repair), I start at A0 and work my way up to the top.
(Question for those more experienced than me - is it better to pull the unisons up as I go, or should I continue doing one string of all notes, then the 2nd and 3rd, where applicable, later?)
If a piano is more like 70 to 100 cents flat or more, I approach it a little differently. For my first pass, I'll pull the strings up TO pitch, without overpull (or if I do, it may only be a few cents or so) AND without using any mutes at all. As for a pitch reference, I may just use what my brain tells me an "A" is supposed to be (I have fairly good relative pitch, and have been able to fairly accurately call out the pitch of a note I hear without being told (or seeing) ahead of time what it was), and rough tune the other notes so they sound somewhat ok with each other (Since I am not using a definite pitch source at this stage, other than what I remember a particular note is supposed to sound like, I will often err slightly on the side of leaving it flat, on this first pass). I do NOT tune unisons-as-I-go on the first pass... and if a piano is upwards of 150 to 200 cents flat, I may bring up one string each on all the As, all the Bs, all the C#s, D#s, Fs, Gs, A#s, Cs, Ds, Es, F#s, G#s, or something like that. When doing that, I'll typically do the 4th octave, 2nd, 6th, 8th (where applicable), 7th, 5th, 3rd, 1st octave, or some variation on that order. Then I'll bring up the 2nd and 3rd strings, in similar order. Once I get to my second pass, though (unless the piano is so far flat that it sank 100 cents due to me not using overpull), I'll use the overpull and the pitch reference (ETD, fork, etc). Once it gets close enough, like within about 10 cents or so, then I will use the normal fine tuning technique.
Question... has anyone yet figured out a good way to pitch raise AND fine tune a piano (including setting the pins, strings, and other techniques used in fine tuning) in ONE pass, that is upwards of 100 to 200 cents flat?

I tune all the unisons by ear, pitch raise and fine tuning, its just faster for me and gives my eyes a break from the spinner. In RCT, I beleive its only the first string of the unison that the software hears that effects the calculations for the following notes (pitch raise and smart tune). I'm a little more careful on setting this string reasonably close and just get the other unisons close by ear on first pass.

The smart tune function does not work that great if the first string of a note it hears is erratically sharp or flat because of excessive sloppiness on the first pass. I think its because the over-under pull calculations are counting on a piano that exibits consistant flatness (occaisionally sharpness) in the tuning. This is the way we usually find the pianos after they have not been tuned for a long time.

If RCT's defaults are used in pitch raise mode it will leave the piano sharp by a couple cents (two I believe) to account for the anticipated drop that follows in the weeks to come. Make sure to adjust the program in fine tune to account for this or you will be undoing the work you did on the first pass. You can also lower the pitch raise defaults by 2 cents to accomplish the same thing if you don't want the piano left sharp of 440.

I've never been fast at pitch raising with my fastest time being 22 minutes. Most of the time it is over 30 minutes using RCT. I've found that a little extra time in Smart Tune mode will mean less time needed in fine tune mode. I'm always scared of breaking strings if I go too fast on older pianos.

While speed may be one reason to use an ETD for pitch adjustment, I really value the precision... It IS possible to come to a piano 20-30 cents off and have a stable fine-tuned piano in about an hour. The trick is matching the overpull percentages to your tuning lever technique and the particular type of piano in front of you. Keep good notes, learn from your mis-guesses and adjust!

Ron Koval
chicagoland

I have always thought that quality of the job trumps the speed of being finished in a hurry. But what the heck do I know......

I agree with Dan. There are too many tuners who somehow think that they should try to save money for the owner of a neglected piano. They have already saved too much money by not tuning the piano as often as it should have been. Yet they get all huffy for paying more than the basic rate. Well, now they can pay for it.

I would rather work on improving the time that it takes to regulate and voice a piano. The people who want that sort of work are the good long-term customers.

RCT slows me down big time. By the time the machine actually picks up the reading, I've already been hearing it. Tuning a piano with the machine, I can do a major pitch raise, say, 1/4-1/2 tone in 15 to 20 minutes whereas, by ear, I can easily do it in 6 minutes. A total tuning with RCT takes me about 45 minutes to one hour whereas, again, by ear, I can be done in 30 minutes or less, if I really want too...

If I am looking strictly for speed and the 6 minute tuning, I use no mutes, no temperament strips nothing. Just a complete aural tuning. I strip mute the tenor the 2nd time and use rubber mutes on the rest.

Some people like Bob, will do a blind pitch raise in 4 minutes just rushing through getting them approximately to where it needs to be.

Exactly.
If there is a pitch raise required, the customer can pay for two appointments; one for the pitch raise and one for the fine tuning.
I don’t feel compelled to reward people for their negligence.

I agree too. The quality of the end product, tuning, is most important. Usually, if say, the piano hasn't been tuned in 20 years, I raise it up to pitch, all the way, rough tune it, spend about an hour knowing full well that it is going to stretch and do its thing and then recommend letting it settle for a few weeks or longer and then re-tune it doing a fine tuning. It makes my job and the stability of the piano lots better.

Byron, if you want to know how I do that, send me a PM. I notice your post was deleted. I'd be happy to explain it privately to you, speed tuning...

How close do you consider a rough tuning to be? less then 5ct?

I posted a question about the no mutes, no temperament strips comment.

I consider a fast pitch raise to be twenty minutes. You said you can do one in six minutes w/o mutes or temp strip and aurally.

Now that's fast.

I don't think I could put my hammer on all the pins in 6 minutes, let alone pull on them...omg

Lunch time....

Well, it has been years since I attempted that. This past Friday I lowered pitch from 445 to 440 by ear in 9 minutes without pressing to hard and it landed right on pitch. 1 minute of that was spent setting the temperament. I slowed myself down Friday because I wasn't feeling well but, I did finish fine tuning the piano in 40 minutes. By fine tuning, I mean a good enough tuning to pass judgment.

Yes, I do lower it BELOW and on a pitch raise, I DO raise it ABOVE.

By the way Byron, I was going to answer your question about that but, your response had apparently been deleted and it wouldn't let me answer at the time.

First, We are talking strictly aurally here, no EDT's. And, I set my temperament F-F setting C-4 with a fork.

Next, the piano obviously has to bad enough to be able to hear it without mutes or strips so, let's say the piano for the fun of it that the piano is 1/2 tone flat.

Oh and, the first question always asked is how close do you get it. The answer to that is this. The purpose of a pitch raise is to get it on or close to pitch. I am not interested in the least, well maybe a little, how accurate the tuning itself is. I am not tuning it. I am " ONLY pitch raising." Tuning is a completely separate process here and is one major reason why so many tuners are slow. On a major pitch raise, they attempt to pitch raise, get some accuracy sometimes a lot of accuracy and tune all at the same time. Doing that slows you way down, wastes a lot of time most of the time and most often, you wind up raising pitch again anyway the other half the time. That said..

I set C-4, guessing as we do tuning aurally, approximately where it should be. I spend some time here and do not include setting C-4 in my clock watching time.... I want C-4 to be where I think it should be otherwise, it might land any old place and I do not want that. It doesn't take long with many years experience to figure out about where to set the pitch to get it to drop relatively close to 440. Sometimes, it drops down to 438 or 437, we guessed wrong... So what, another slight pitch raise and we're on.

I set F-F again, with no strips, going through the temperament easily in less than 30-45 seconds. Remember, your aim, is to get it up to pitch. Period... Up to pitch..

I tune the middle strings, tuning in octaves, down to the bass. I start on F#-4 again tuning octaves all the way up to C-8. Again, raising everything going up, sharp of pitch by an amount that I determine at every piano tuning. At first, this is daunting task but with some practice it can be done. We hear many things when tuning. You can train your ear to also hear this as well.

Next, starting in the tenor bass, going down, I tune the top tuning pin down to the single wound strings, tuning in octaves. Many times, I will just crank it up, sort of like a blind pitch raise about the same amount of turning as the other tunings pins required listening only to how much I have raised it up making it "about the same as the last one.

Next, starting in the lower tenor, I tune the top pin cranking it up QUICKLY to where I set the center string. I do this all the way up to C-8. I then tune beginning in the upper bass, the lower tuning pin down to A-0.

Next, I tune the lower tuning pin in the tenor up to C-8, again, matching and/or, blind pitch raising sometimes, up to C-8. a blind pitch raise can be lots faster than a listening pitch raise and takes a lot more practice to get it to be half way close. Bob is much better at that than I am.

That's about it. I do not diddly dally around at all. I slam on the tuning hammer cranking it at the same time not moving my hand position on the tuning hammer.

It takes lots and lots and lots of practice. Some people never master the ability to do fast pitch raises. No big deal. Some people can do it. There are times where I just want out. It is noisy, I am cranky, I am tired, or sore, or maybe I have a time limit. The time limit especially, is where knowing how to tune quickly will save lots of time.

So, let's say, I raised pitch 1/4 tone on a piano as I did Friday, in the case, I mute stripped off the entire tenor and treble. I tuned the center strings, yanked out the strip on unison at a time tuning them all up to C-8. Then, I tuned the bass, tuning each string all the way down. Figuring on a 40 minute tuning, I just left myself 31 minutes to put the felt strips back in and fine tune the piano....

Make sense? Time to go back to work!!! No time to proof it so, I hope it's okay!!

Wow. It would be nice to see a video of that. I imagine something like one of the old Charlie Chaplin movies (where everything is sped up) or some scene from a Superman movie.

Is there a Guinness book of records entry for fastest piano tuning?

Kees

Hi Kees,

Well, I'm not the only person that can tune fast. I know lots of tuners that can and do a nice job. I am NOT good with recording stuff and computer stuff so, for me, recording and posting is not going to happen. Don't have the material for it anyway. It took me like, forever just to figure out how to post a picture on this forum!

Yes, there are Guiness Book of records on that. Steve Fairchild holds the current record. I can't ever remember what his time for tuning was but, it is my understanding that the tuning was considered "playable" whatever that means. I want to say it was done in 13 minutes? Pitch raise maybe 6 minutes? Don't know for sure...

Today I tuned 3 pianos in 135 minutes. I lowered pitch from 25-40 ¢ on each. My time includes taking the pianos apart, tuning, pitch adjusting, putting them back together, talking to the music director for a while, driving to a 2nd school 5 minutes away and doing likewise on the other 2 that were located here. They came out nice.. 3 Yamaha's P22's.

They should film you for the tuning documentary Jerry. Do you drive a Ferrari?
Kees

Greetings,
I go fast on a pitch raise. 15 minutes is about all the chore is worth. I don't worry about overpulling the bass, since virtually any piano in good shape is capable of A-442, which means it would have to be 30 cents flat to cause overpull to the 442 tension.
After a flattening to break any rust bonds, and a short yank sharp, I use a single stroke of the hammer dropping the pitch to where I want it. On a pitch raise, if I miss my target by 5 cents, I keep going and make it up on the next pin. The way to get the time down is to never fuss with a pin,never move it up and down to adjust the pitch. There are hundreds of pounds of change still coming, so just throw it near where it will have to ultimately be, and keep moving.
If you can refine your "throw" technique, you will soon be moving with speed and ease, i.e. even though I am going fast, I am leaving all the pins "set", where-ever they happen to land. After a few decades, or thousands of these jobs, you will have a clearer idea of how to quickly leave a string so that it can't be moved. It has to do with a hand registering the amount of torque put in the pin to make it move, and the amount of friction sensed from hearing the string change. We gradually learn to leave the note at pitch, with higher tension in the topstring. That is really all there is to it.
During the fine tuning, a lot of these notes don't move with a wiggle on the pin and a test blow, so I leave them. My own freebies.
Regards,