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Re:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTfBpKzu6XA

at 3:35
Exactly the way I comp with my band, too! Finally I can compare to the great Herbie

Haha, yes, less is more sometimes

hey, anyone here play Stella by Starlight? I'm going through KJ's intro on his Standards Live album and figuring out the chord progression. It's got a strange (to me) chords, the key is Bb but it switches several times to D-, Ebmaj.

How do you approach songs like this, where the chords are non-diatonic to the melody.

Everybody plays Stella. I haven't worked out the Jarrett intro though. I was just listening to his later version on 'Yesterdays'. I am not sure I understand your question as Stella is more or less a bunch of 2 5's.

I should rephrase that, the chords themselves aren't "strange", but what I have trouble with is remembering the key changes in harmony while playing the melody.

yeah it's all 2-5's, from D-, Eb+ Bb. I just approach songs differently in trying to play melodically first.

I have to consciously remember the shifts.


I hate thinking, ok here's the 2-5 in D- coming up, then Eb, but I guess you can't avoid that.

Which chords are you thinking as non-diatonic? As beeboss said, all the chords should have a ii, V or a I function to them, and I believe all of the resting points (such as Eb, D7, Cm7, etc) all are within the diatonic scale of Bb. The only exception is the Ab7 chord, but that is a type of sub for a F7#9 I think. So, if you approach it AS diatonic, and see how the chords fit that model the song becomes much easier to play and understand.

But I do agree with you that it is not an easy tune to make sound good when you first learn it. It seems a bit elusive at times.

Oops, we cross posted. But in any case, another thing that I force myself to think about when I'm trying to learn a tune is the idea of movement and stability, and how the underlying chords are a function of that. So, everytime a V or a ii V is around I know what I can/should do on these chords, as well as how I should approach the I chords in a different manner.

I think by restricting oneself to just considering the melody it makes the job of understanding the song that much harder. I remember my Royal Conservatory days when I had to figure bass (literally) for melodies in my theory classes. I don't remember really enjoying it either.

The problem for me isn't to know the 2-5-1, it's when you use a 2-5 not of the key. For Stella, the melody is in Bb, but the chords shift from a 2-5 of D- to Ebmaj, to Bb. If I'm playing an E-b5 to A7 (D-), I'm still thinking Bb maj when I'm improvising in the right hand.

To me that's easier than switching all those keys.

the 2 would be non-diatonic relative to Bb, with the E, and same with A7, with the C#.

That's what I mean, you guys get it?

I don't think I get what you mean. I thought you were looking for advice, but now you are stating that you've found a way to improvise that avoids thinking outside the key. Is that what you are saying? I'm still unclear about what you mean about 'the 2 would be non-diatonic relative to Bb...'

As far as I can tell the piece never moves outside of Bb maj. The chords it lands on at times are all within Bb. I think the trick is knowing how those chords operate.

Also, the 2 5s are not always so evident, as in the Bbmin Eb7 to Fmaj. The Bbmin is a sub for Gm7b5 and the Eb7 is a sub for the C7#9. At least that is how I approached them.

The melody doesn't move outside Bb maj, but the chords do. Like the 2-5-1 in D-, the 2 chord, E-b5 has the E note, which would be a #4 in the key of Bb maj. I consider it non-diatonic.

There's some other chords like that too, which utilize notes outside, but the melody note remains in Bb.

When I play a 2-5-1 in a key, I tend to think more of the key than the actual chord, less complicated.

In Stella it keeps switching but I'd rather just keep thinking in Bb maj.

Not a good idea in Stella. There are many tunes like this where you really have to make the changes and not rely on a generalized scale. It only goes so far to take these shortcuts IMHO.

In Giant Steps, for example, there is no opportunity for faking it. You've got to make the changes. Period.

To me the best approach is to look at each portion of the progression and specifically write what key that's in. Stella, ATTYA, etc. all change keys frequently. So why not just accept that?

LOL That really made my day! I'm not so bad after all...

I think I get what you mean. Stella is a weird tune- the melody itself is almost entirely diatonic but the chords move around quite a lot. Many of the changes that jazz players now play are not really in the original, rather the sequence has been made gradually more complex over time. It should be possible to do a decent melodic solo without playing many notes outside of Bb major, but this is surprisingly difficult to do.
I would suggest a dual approach.... firstly decide on the sequence you wish to use and try really outlining the harmony as much as possible until you have completely assimilated it (ie forgetting entirely about Bb major and just working on the chord of the moment).
Then try playing really simple melodic ideas that never stray far from Bb major but that also don't clash with the changing chords.

I think it may be that Wiz has not fully assimilated the harmony here. When I play Stella, I don't think I even think of scales, keys, or anything. It is so ingrained that I will not pick a wrong note. And I will not stick to Bb at all. I don't know how you could. There are minor ii-V's in here that require alterations.

This approach of forcing some single scale cannot work on tunes like Very Early. So why even bother? To me there is but one rule. Follow the harmony (i.e. play the changes).

Man, I've recorded Stella a few times, and I don't have one single version that I haven't played at least one regrettable note. I'm not even sure any more as to what my problem is, but I had given up playing the tune for some time because I could never make it sound as nice as other tunes I've worked on.

Care to post a version or two of Stella anyone? I'd love to hear the PW locals do some solo piano versions of it.

lots of good versions on youtube, I like 7notemode's solo take:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFu286OQLkY


Yeah I need to get the chord progressions worked out.

KJ's intro on Standards is still the best. I got a transcription and he follows pretty much the exact chord changes in the fake book, good to know!

I'll be sure to put it on my todo list Scep. Although, I'm way behind right now so it won't be too soon.

When I started playing Jazz, I started with Stella almost from the very beginning. I thought that together with ATTYA, these two tunes give you a real workout in keeping up with the changes. However, just playing with the changes is one thing. Coming up with something coherent is a separate matter

But I have to still post Falling Grace and some Blues...

Scep, I was just playing some Blues a moment ago and if approached as a modern jazz project (using a Chick kind of thinking), it really sounds cool; a lot of it sounding outside. But I have to practice this kind of playing a bit as it is hard to play all this ALT stuff. It doesn't flow well with the fingers. I hope you join me in this as no one else seems interested.

Ya, I'll join you in it. Remember we did Porkpie Hat a while back? I think that's the closest I've come to the blues in a while. I think my playing in general gravitates towards the 'blues' sound though, despite my recordings that would seem to indicate the contrary.

So, any head of interest? A Monk blues? I'm not sure where I'm going to start.

Well we know it can work as the melody of Stella is virtually diatonic (with only one E and one F sharp if I remember correctly). So for your scale choice on each chord you could just choose to use those notes which as also in Bb major scale.
For E half dim for example you could use Bb C D F G A (notes that are in E locrian and Bb major scale), for A7 you could play A Bb C F G (the notes in A dim W/T and also Bb major) etc. If the chord is more distant there are less notes in common but there will always be some. I have never tried this but I don't see why it shouldn't work. Limiting the notes to use in improvisation can be a really useful technique, it forces you to get more out a smaller set of possibilities.
I'll try it and report back.

I know what you mean. We all have tunes like that. A train is my one, I just hate playing on it.
I used to play Stella so much and it is such a cliche that I don't really like playing it anymore. It's a great sequence though so maybe I'll try it again.