Hi everybody, this is my 1st post on this forum... though i've been visiting it for a few weeks
I play piano/keyboard for 5 months now. First 2 months a was just trying by myself, and now I take weekly lessons from a private teacher.
I own an Yamaha PSR-E313, it was just fine at the very beginning, but since i'm taking lessons on an acoustic, the unweighted keyboard just seems like some toy piano, you might know that feel
I have access to an upright often during holidays, but i'll have no longer 2 weeks from now.

So here's the issue, I'm looking for a nice DP, my budget is (converted to $) about 700$...
I found 3 suitable DP's - Casio PX-130, Korg SP-170 and Yamaha P85 (well, the P95 is pretty much the same, but costs 150$ more).
They have the Casio and Korg at the music store so I tried them - the Casio's sound felt slightly better to me, but maybe it was just me expecting it, since the Casio is much better on the paper (tri-sensor, 4 layers, etc.)
Also the Korg has really stupid button position, I'd have to move it before each practising
The Yamaha wasn't available atm but i tried S31 (also GHS) and the action felt too light to me (the upright i'm used to has VERY heavy action). The sound were between Casio and Korg but still...

I can afford each one of those 3 (Yamaha and Korg are like 680$ in Czech Republic, Casio 850$)
My requirements are just the finest hammer feeling and piano sound, I really don't care about the count of other sounds, or their quality... just looking for the best (affordable) substitute for an acoustic.

I will be very happy for your opinions, experiences, etc.
Also one question: do you get your money back if the keys start clicking?

Thanks for replies.

You probably basically found the three strongest contenders in your price range. They're all good choices. Unless you need some particular feature that one might have over another, it's really just a matter of which keyboard feels best to you, and what sounds best to you. They're all good, and no one else's opinion here will be better than your going and trying them yourself. If one is more satisfying to play than the others, that's the one to go with!

From what I've heard, the ~5 year old Korg SP250 has even better key feeling than the PX-130. On the flip side it's ugly as hell, has only dual sensors, two layers, and no advanced volume altering chip.

About Casio's clicking issue:
There's at least one other guy on these forums that plan on returning his when the warranty almost runs out, so I guess it goes under the warranty.

I just bought the Korg SP-170 and I like it. To me, it has the most realistic piano touch of any digital I've played. But don't just give it a quick run through - play it for 15 or 20 minutes to really get a good feel for it. (I admit I gave it a quick once over in the store, but I trusted my dealer. When I got it home I realized he was right about the great feel).

The way of changing voices is a little different, but my needs were portability (weighs 26.68 lbs) and a realistic piano feel - so that wasn't a big issue for me.

Wishing you great luck - I know it's hard to choose!

Yes it is! Thanks for advices, I think I'll give the Korg one more shot. I will stop at the music store on Tuesday and the final decision will be made. I'll post it, as i can see I'm not the only one who's got eye on those 3.

And after all, if it's as good as Casio, i save almost 200 bucks and the brand won't remind me of my school calculator all the time, lol

Looks like i won't be able to make it to the music store tomorrow, cause i got mumps (yeah, really funny at age 16 except it hurts like hell ) so I'm gonna stop there later...
Just a technical question: don't you guys know how many velocity layers the Korg SP-170 has? I know Casio has 4, and Yamaha's got 1, but I can't found any data on Korg, they just say ''several'' or ''multiple''... I know the sound is a matter of taste but I'm not THAT experienced with acoustics... the layers should be the tie-breaker if everything else fails

Ouch - didn't you get the MMR vaccine at some point?

I had all three (measles, mumps, rubella) in childhood, but when I went back to college in my late 30's I couldn't put my hands on any documentation proving it, so I had to get the MMR - it gave me mild arthritis in my fingers for a while which was kind of scary.

I don't think i did... and i didn't get mumps in childhood for sure... but it might be some other salivary gland inflammation... the doctor will tell for sure today

Ok, so it seems like I'm not going to have a second chance - the SP-170 and PX-130 are sold from the store, and are available to buy from the warehouse only.
After watching few more videos, I'm gonna go with PX-130. The sound (and touch) is really less 'artificial' imho. I will have it delivered this week and tell you guys my impressions
Just one last question: the Casio has USB port, I'm not going to need it now, but is it ''real'' to plug it into mid-range laptop and use it to enhance piano sound or get some new sounds? Won't there be some terrible delay? This is an advantage over Korg which doesn't have USB
btw: It really was mumps. Sad thing is that I sold my E313 few days before the disease showed up, and had to wait to try the DP's - tons of unused boring time which could be used to practise ;-)

To connect "real MIDI" to a computer you would need a MIDI -> USB adaptor. So either way the MIDI data goes through the computer's USB port.

Yes there is a delay but the delay is on the audio side. Getting the MIDi data into the computer is very fast bjt Windows PCs are not very good at real-time audio output and need a third party software device driver installed to work acceptably well and some tie some other configuration changes too. It can be made to work but all the hassle will be on the audio output side. Not the input.

Remember that even an acoustic piano has some delay. About 10 milliseconds total for the time it take the hammer to move then a speed of sound delay from the string to your ear. Any Mac or a well setup PC can get down to 10ms.


The advantge is "real MIDI" over USB is that USB only works with a computer not other MIDI devices and you don't really know if your next compute will have USB. At some point I'm sure it won't

Looking at this very detailed study: http://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectures/askenflt/measure.html we can see that it actually takes about 30ms between when the finger makes contact with the key, to the moment the string starts to vibrate, for a forte strike. Add a few ms for sound propagation. On my reasonably well set up Windows laptop using a USB audio/MIDI interface, and for a forte strike, I have about a 50ms total latency (again, from finger contact with key to audio output) which is a fair bit more than a real grand piano. However, I find it totally acceptable, but I am NOT a concert pianist.

Greg.

Sorry - scrub the 50ms - in fact it is about 30ms. I had forgotten that my 50ms measurement was obtained when my audio interface had a firmware problem. So, yes, my system DOES have a forte latency which is a good match to an acoustic piano!

Chris: I suppose that it IS 10ms from where the key would be on a digital piano at the moment it senses/measures key velocity - i.e about 2/3rds down. That tallies nicely.

Greg.

Hmmm... I wouldn't think the delay between the finger making contact and sound reception is important, but rather the moment when finger and key (or key only if propelled by momentum) reach the bottom of the keybed. This would be exactly the moment of the hammer strike in an acoustic piano - so I wouldn't talk of delay there.

And I wouldn't take the sound travel into the equation, since sound has to travel from a DP or external speakers as well (unless you play through headphones) and anyway it takes less than 3 ms to travel that distance between piano and player.

However, digital pianos introduce some sort of "negative delay", since the sensors measure the velocity of a key slightly before it reaches the bottom. This is especially evident if you try to play pianissimo. Sophisticated measurements like the AvantGrands hammer sensors are made to prevent this. In a VST situation, this "premature signal" is rather favorable, since it counters at least a small fraction of the computer-introduced delay.

LaRate,
For forte strikes, I think that taking the measurement from the moment the finger makes contact with the key would be valid, assuming that the keys are reasonably well behaved, and that the key travel is correct. (both of which apply to my weighted action DP). For example - my keys don't stop half way down and do a little pirouette for 20ms, and then continue on their way. So, I'm confident that I can compare my forte measurements to the equivalent latency figure in that study paper I referenced.

All I'm trying to show is that my setup BROADLY performs like an acoustic piano, for forte strikes only. As you say, as we play softer and softer, the hammers strike the strings earlier and earlier (wrt the key bottoming out), and the latency of my setup may not be nearly as good for softer playing.

Just btw, I've been using Windows for software pianos for AGES - ever since the Nemesys Gigapiano which was released way back around year 2000. I have NEVER had any problems with latency.
That 50ms latency I mentioned was only picked up by doing an actual measurement. It was only occuring for the VERY first note that was played, if no other notes were already sounding at that time. I simply didn't notice it. (however, if I force the latency to be a constant 50ms, I most certainly do notice it - it is dreadful)

Greg.

Not quite. An acoustic piano has an escapement mechanism.
a. The key can reach bottom without the hammer striking the string at all ... if you press very gently.
b. The hammer can strike the string before the key reaches bottom ... if you press rapidly in a "sudden impact" motion.
Neither of these extremes are typical, but there are typical key motions that approach the extremes. So the delay from keytouch to the onset of sound will vary. There are research papers that report investigations of this.

A digital piano has no escapement. And the position of the hammer is irrelevant. Sound can begin as soon as the key approaches the bottom position (subject to key/sensor design variations among brands, and also subject to any deliberate delay that might be built into the software).
Quite. Sound moves at roughly 1 foot per millisecond. So the player can't detect such a small delay.

MacMacMac,
Even for normal playing, the hammers strike the strings before the keys bottom out, when the keys are played softly. That paper I referenced states this.

Note that the sound propagation delay may have to be added to the results in that paper, because they quote "string velocity", which kind of implies that they MAY have measured the motion of the strings in a very direct fashion.

Greg.

Re: the original question about which DP to buy, all I can say is that not too much importance should be attached to the fact that the Casio has a triple-sensor key action. I've tried it and I think the keys are quite sluggish, and for forte repetition it is not as good as my own DP, which only has two sensors. It MAY be better for pianissimo repetition but I didn't test that. I'm disappointed in this because I was very excited indeed about the new Casio action when I first heard about it.

Greg.

Thanks everybody for replies. My point was just if it's possible to get good ping, i once tried to record through 3,5mm jack. The latency was bad (as far as i can remember about half a second... it didn't matter for recording but it certainly wouldn't be suitable for playing)
So the PX-130 arrived yesterday, and I'm satisfied. The touch is great (someone was complaining about ''sluggish'' black keys... it's true, but the acoustic I'm used to play is even worse, so I don't mind), and the sound too. One thing that disappointed me is speakers, middle tones doesn't sound clean. But I play mostly with headphones, and I can plug in my PC speakers from time to time
Now I'm looking forward to build a stand, I use my old X one, but it isn't stable, and really doesn't look good in the department. I can post some pics later

Yamaha P85 is good for practice. It is light, and sound through headphones is pretty good. The poor part of the piano are the speakers, so if you want to put on a show for an audience you have to buy some extra speakers. But for that price seems quite balanced.

I didn't like the touch of Yamaha's but it's probably because aunt's acoustic I often use has the heaviest action i've ever seen.
Also, how about the headphones? I've got Sennheiser HD 201, the sound is clean, but not rich. Does anyone have experience with HD 418? With the ridiculous prices in Czech, they're the most expensive I can afford right now.

Greg,

I see many threads where the requirement is for a good portable/slab type DP for students which is cost effective.

The main criteria being:
1. The best key action closest/similar to an acoustic
2. The best possible piano sound.
3. Good speakers to enjoy the good sound.
4. Auto-accompaniment for students to have some fun (as many would be graduating from soft touch keyboards.

The company which CAN do this best seems to be Yamaha. They have the DGX630 with decent speakers (though just 6w+6w they come with their own boxes). All they need to do is give it their GH3 key action and the P-155 sound, and hey presto, you'll have magic.

I'm quite sure that its not a difficult/impossible task.

The issue is that they have gone into so many different categories which cater to each need separately.

Competitors like Casio (PX-330) are understanding these needs and gaining in the entry level DP for students.
Its a matter of time that Casio, which has eaten a big share of the entry level keyboards (soft touch), does the same with the DP.

Brian

Brian, have you seen the ES6?

James
x

Hi James,

I did'nt get a chance to see it when I visited the kawai dealership. They did'nt have it on display. I had asked the dealer for it as I'd seen it on the kawai website and was interested to see it.

Infact I've mentioned the ES6 on a couple of threads (including the Gold standard thread).

I'm hoping kawai will give it the ultra PHI and RM3 action. Could you throw some light on this. Believe me it will be a killer product.

I'm looking for the ES6 upgrade, FP-7F, Korg Pa588 type of product for the time being. Then if my daughter continues to do well, I'm going to get that Beauty, the Kawai K6 (what a Babe!!!).

Before I saw the K6, I was keen on the CVP 503/505 consoles. But after I fell in love, I'm torn between the above OR a combination of a stage/portable DP with auto-accompaniment plus The Babe in Polished Ebony with its gorgeous resonating sound and superb Millenium action.

Brian

Hello Brian,



The ES series has always been built around Kawai's latest plastic key action, so 'RH' (not 'RM3 Grand') will be the more likely candidate for a future ES model.

If you're looking for a stage piano that utilises the latest wooden-key action, keep your eyes peeled for a new MP instrument - expected to be announced shortly.

Kind regards,
James
x

James,

Just checked. The RH action would be good as well as its the equivalent of the GH3, PHAIII. I'm looking for the auto-accompaniment feature and hence the ES6 upgrade would be the ideal choice.

Regards,
Brian

I think they have not done this because it would not work out well. The GH/GH3 key action is a good piano action but a very firm weighted hammer action is just not the best for non-piano sounds. And not so good for playing one-finger cords either. I don't like the Yamaha GHS action for piano but I have to admit it is about right for an instrument like the "630". Where the piano voice is just one of many things the keyboard can do.

Look what Yamaha did on thei new CP1 and CP5 flagship pianos. They made the keys lighter and removed the grading. This is to make the electric piano voices more playable

I just don't think you can have one single keyboard that can do it all.

ChrisA,

The CVP 503 onwards has the combination of GH3 action with all the sounds and features, albiet in a console.

Yamaha needs to make this in a slab/stage piano form. They already have the tech in place.

Brian