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#1505196 - 08/29/10 07:25 AM
IMPROV-one note at a time vs mutiple note harmonization
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Full Member
Registered: 10/12/09
Posts: 27
Loc: South Carolina
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I find that I can work on "one note at a time" jazz/blues improvisation using what I have learned the past few years and occasionally it sound passable. But, how does one learn how to "construct" multiple note improvs (notes played at the same time) that will harmonize, such as in licks, or just knowing what multiple simultaneously played notes will harmonize when you go from chordal, to pentatonic to blues scales or when you throw in a tritone substitution?
I would greatly appreciate any direction or guidance on this as I have been struggling with this problem for quite a while.
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#1505541 - 08/29/10 08:21 PM
Re: IMPROV-one note at a time vs mutiple note harmonization
[Re: traveler]
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4000 Post Club Member
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4521
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You appear to be like many people, you resist digging in And improvising by ear, with no concern for whether you're Doing it "correctly". The problem may be that you've Always done things the "right" way, and you hesitate To just let yourself go and trust your instincts. You feel That if you do this, you will end up doing it the wrong way, Playing "wrong notes", etc.
But that's what improv is like, you're experimenting and Innovating, training your ear and learning about the Instrument and what you can do on it, in a way that You can never learn from a book.
Of course like anything this this is going to take practice, A lot of it. Initially it might sound bad, like mindless Pounding, but that's how you learn improv.
When you improvise, you're not thinking: what notes do I Hit that will be harmonious? Or what notes with go with Certain scale, or how do I play a lick, or how do I make A Tritone substitution, etc. You just play, purely by ear. You're Not even thinking specific chords, just: if I hit these keys, I get this sound, etc.
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#1505566 - 08/29/10 08:58 PM
Re: IMPROV-one note at a time vs mutiple note harmonization
[Re: Gyro]
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Full Member
Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 74
Loc: Heidelberg, Germany
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hi traveler,
if you want to harmonize your single-line-improvisation, there are different possibilities. First of all, when playing a scale stepwise up- or downwards, you have to hear these notes allways with alternating functions.
c d e f g a b c could be harmonized with tonic - dominant - tonic - dominant - tonic - tonic - dominant - tonic. But this is not really satisfying because of the one repetition of the tonic. Therefore it is usefull to add an additional chromatic note to the 7 tone scale. If you play now c d e f g g# a b c and alternate the chords with tonic - dominant - tonic - dominant - tonic - dominant - tonic - dominant - tonic, you will see that it fits much better. For tonic function you can use a major-sixth-chord and for dominant-function a diminished 7 chord. In the right hand you play 4 note voicings in close position and in the left you just double the lead voice an octave down.
This could be an exercise, starting harmonizing melodies.
Edited by Cudo (08/29/10 09:02 PM)
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#1505608 - 08/29/10 10:04 PM
Re: IMPROV-one note at a time vs mutiple note harmonization
[Re: Cudo]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
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don't listen to Gyro, his advice is useless for improvising. I don't even know if he can actually improvise or if he's just talk. His "play by ear" method will get you nowhere.
Basically for jazz, know your 2-5-1. Learn the chords and their extensions and how they sound with them.
The V7, dominant chord can basically have any note played, where you get into specific alterations, (b9,#9, b5, #5).
The important one know the entire chord.
So say C major key, 1 chord is C. C E G B is the C maj7th, extensions are D (9th) A (6th)
Learn as many inversions of the chord and find ones you like the sound.
Do that with the 2 and 5 chords and you are on your way.
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#1505609 - 08/29/10 10:05 PM
Re: IMPROV-one note at a time vs mutiple note harmonization
[Re: Cudo]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1294
Loc: Toronto
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hi traveler,
if you want to harmonize your single-line-improvisation, there are different possibilities. First of all, when playing a scale stepwise up- or downwards, you have to hear these notes allways with alternating functions.
c d e f g a b c could be harmonized with tonic - dominant - tonic - dominant - tonic - tonic - dominant - tonic. But this is not really satisfying because of the one repetition of the tonic. Therefore it is usefull to add an additional chromatic note to the 7 tone scale. If you play now c d e f g g# a b c and alternate the chords with tonic - dominant - tonic - dominant - tonic - dominant - tonic - dominant - tonic, you will see that it fits much better. For tonic function you can use a major-sixth-chord and for dominant-function a diminished 7 chord. In the right hand you play 4 note voicings in close position and in the left you just double the lead voice an octave down.
This could be an exercise, starting harmonizing melodies. The teachings of Barry Harris alive and well:)
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#1505804 - 08/30/10 06:37 AM
Re: IMPROV-one note at a time vs mutiple note harmonization
[Re: AJF]
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Full Member
Registered: 10/12/09
Posts: 27
Loc: South Carolina
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I appreciate everyone's response. I have exercises I've been using going, through all the ii V I scales and even doing some improv while doing the scales.
Cudo, if you don't mind, three questions: 1) when you say use a dimished 7 chord for dominant function, you don't mean in a ii V I progression do you and if not, do you mean other chordal progressions as one improvises; 2) if one uses close position in the right hand, do you then use single notes in between when using approach or passing notes; and 3) when you say double the lead voice an octive down, do you mean for the tonic scale as wouldn't you be doing 1 7 shells or walking bass or many other jazz oriented chords? I'm sure its my misunderstanding so I very much appreciate you assistance.
BTW - I found "Rodney's method" string and it was also helpful
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#1505844 - 08/30/10 09:24 AM
Re: IMPROV-one note at a time vs mutiple note harmonization
[Re: traveler]
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Full Member
Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Vermont, USA
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While cudo's method is good, I think it's too advanced to start with.
Try harmonizing with a sweet interval like a 3rd or a 6th. On a strong beat, try making both notes fall on a chord tone. For example, if you are playing paralell 6ths, and your top note is the 3rd of the chord, your bottom note will be the 5th of the chord. Likewise, if your top note is the root of the chord, then your bottom note is the 3rd of the chord.
You can practice scales like that to get your fingers used to it.
Edited by wavelength (08/30/10 09:27 AM)
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#1505957 - 08/30/10 12:55 PM
Re: IMPROV-one note at a time vs mutiple note harmonization
[Re: traveler]
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Full Member
Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 74
Loc: Heidelberg, Germany
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1) when you say use a dimished 7 chord for dominant function, you don't mean in a ii V I progression do you and if not, do you mean other chordal progressions as one improvises; I didn't ment a chordal progressions at this moment. I ment practising this technique first of all with a single chord quality. Let's say the wanted chord quality is major6. For example meanwhile a C6 chord is sounding, a ionian chordscale is running up and down. The overall harmony is C6, but the harmonisation of every single note of the run changes!See example below. 2) if one uses close position in the right hand, do you then use single notes in between when using approach or passing notes; Yes, especially arppegios are played as singlenote runs in both hands simultaneously. Approach or passing notes also can be played as single notes, but sometimes precisely these notes are very interesting for harmonisation. 3) when you say double the lead voice an octive down, do you mean for the tonic scale as wouldn't you be doing 1 7 shells or walking bass or many other jazz oriented chords? No, but I think you'll understand it reading the PDF-file example below. In the PDF you have for allmost every chord quality a different harmonisation. Watch out the 2 different harmonisations for dominant quality (C9 and D9). In the 1. example when relating it to C6 the g# should be spelled ab of course. ---> http://www.cisum.info/Scaleharmonization2.pdf EXAMPLE I could not find it. Do you have a link?
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#1506095 - 08/30/10 05:01 PM
Re: IMPROV-one note at a time vs mutiple note harmonization
[Re: Cudo]
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Full Member
Registered: 10/12/09
Posts: 27
Loc: South Carolina
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Cudo, thanks for the suggestions and the work you put into it. For the Rodney Method, I went to the search function and and entered those exact words and the it was the first link found. Please let me know if you can't find it and I'll see if I can find how to copy the link address.
One more question if I may. The primary question I have had, and not been able to articulate, is how does one inprovise in the right hand using multple notes such as the 7 and 3 to harmonize together and move on creating a lick or riff? I see people playing mltiple notes in the right hand followed by single notes folowed by multiple or whatever, going up or down the scal creating these terrific sounds, including tensions. But how do you know which notes harmonize or is it simply targeting notes like the 7th or 3rd and use the other notes such as tension notes with those specific notes holdoing on?
Hope this is understandable and thanks again.
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#1506615 - 08/31/10 01:13 PM
Re: IMPROV-one note at a time vs mutiple note harmonization
[Re: traveler]
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Full Member
Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Vermont, USA
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You can think about chord tones. Or you can think about intervals. Or you can just mess around until you find something you like.
The third one is probably best.
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#1507131 - 09/01/10 09:50 AM
Re: IMPROV-one note at a time vs mutiple note harmonization
[Re: Gyro]
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Full Member
Registered: 01/16/08
Posts: 365
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You appear to be like many people, you resist digging in And improvising by ear, with no concern for whether you're Doing it "correctly". The problem may be that you've Always done things the "right" way, and you hesitate To just let yourself go and trust your instincts. You feel That if you do this, you will end up doing it the wrong way, Playing "wrong notes", etc.
But that's what improv is like, you're experimenting and Innovating, training your ear and learning about the Instrument and what you can do on it, in a way that You can never learn from a book.
Of course like anything this this is going to take practice, A lot of it. Initially it might sound bad, like mindless Pounding, but that's how you learn improv.
When you improvise, you're not thinking: what notes do I Hit that will be harmonious? Or what notes with go with Certain scale, or how do I play a lick, or how do I make A Tritone substitution, etc. You just play, purely by ear. You're Not even thinking specific chords, just: if I hit these keys, I get this sound, etc. In your above poem, ode or elegy Or whatever lyrical verse it’s supposed to be, Could Gyro please ensure next time At least that the verses are all in rhyme And we’re really longing to hear you play So post on YouTube without delay. And if your pieces are really tough Just show us, or.....we’ll call your bluff!
_________________________
Dear Noah, We could have sworn you said the ark wasn't leaving till 5. Yours sincerely, The Unicorns
------------------------------
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#1508728 - 09/03/10 10:19 PM
Re: IMPROV-one note at a time vs mutiple note harmonization
[Re: traveler]
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Full Member
Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 347
Loc: Massachusetts
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The primary question I have had, and not been able to articulate, is how does one inprovise in the right hand using multple notes such as the 7 and 3 to harmonize together and move on creating a lick or riff? I see people playing mltiple notes in the right hand followed by single notes folowed by multiple or whatever, going up or down the scal creating these terrific sounds, including tensions. But how do you know which notes harmonize or is it simply targeting notes like the 7th or 3rd and use the other notes such as tension notes with those specific notes holdoing on? Maybe you're talking more about voice leading - which is a classical term for how each voice for the parts moves from one note to the next? Like a Bach choral? Many jazz players incorporate a loose idea of this in improvisation. Another term for this would be "polyphonic" - meaning "multiple voices" (as opposed to just a chord and single melody note). If you posted a specific example of someone doing what you're talking about, that's really the only way we can help you. But if what I've described above is what you're looking for, it sounds like you'll want to study how classical harmony works, just enough of the basics to get the idea. Some of this happens in jazz - when you do your ii-V-I's, watch how the 3rd/7th patterns move through each chord.
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