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#150678 - 09/24/05 12:30 AM Re: Schimmel help!
MahlerAdagio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 510
You know, it's true that the dealer don't have any legal obligation. And they would not be wrong in refusing a refund.

However, there are certainly moral obligation that won't hold up in court, but have much other hidden benefits that will never be seen by a dealer, were they to appreciate somebody who just bought a very expensive piano that they hate. Is that really the after taste that they want to leave behind on a customer, just because they won the sale and jackpoted a big fat commission and profit?

There are plenty of dealers out there who'd actually deliver and let sit a high priced piano at a potential buyers home, for him/her to have it live in their living room for a short while, and learn to see whether it's something they want. They then take it back if they're not interested.

Constance purchased the piano in good faith that she really wanted to own it and enjoy it. The fact the she didn't, well is there something within a dealer's heart and sensibilities that does not allow this to sit with them?

Of course, a dealer can't afford to sell pianos and have to refund the money afterwards. But the percentages of that happening is way too low when compared to those who actually keeps the piano.

Now, what is the proper dealer's response? To keep the money, fat with their profit and commission, and say, "Too bad lady, should've thought of that before!". Or, perhaps show some mercy and recognise that Constance didn't intend to not like the piano, and, "Heck, I was a darn good salesperson to convince her".

Try to work things out, sure, but to who's advantage? To the dealer, where they get to sell on an even higher priced item, and more profit margin? Or, perhaps to work things out where the buyer pays for the costs of having it delivered, etc, and lets make that even?

After all, it's a week old piano for goodness sakes. Many pianos sits months and years before they're sold and the store still claims them as new. In fact, frequently a piano has been battered, played in concerts, lived in showrooms after showrooms, for months and even years and still sell it as a "New" piano, just because it has not been sold before. Is it really new? According to who, the dealer? But the physical piano is not new is it? Because a new piano is usually something that looks and sounds like new, with hammers and keys still in unused condition, instead of indentation in the hammers and scratches on the keys.

Car dealerships sells demo cars, and the demos are not new, even thought it has not been sold before. It's a more accurate representation, a mandate forced by the Feds.

So, is a week old piano new, even though in paper it's not?

So, ultimately, it goes back to the dealer. Would he/her ignore the fact that Constance is not at all happy with her piano, but that's not their problem anymore and tell her to sell it on ebay, since a contract is a contract, and there is absolutely no legal obligation for them as dealer?

That's justice.

Or will there be enough sensitivity to know that this Constance was not really in her right frame of mind when she bought this, therefore, what can I do to make it right for her so she can feel content when she sleeps at night?

That's mercy.

Justice or Mercy?

What do you choose?

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#150679 - 09/24/05 01:15 AM Re: Schimmel help!
Gwyn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/21/05
Posts: 211
Hi, just want to say that i really understand how salesmen can break you down. i was a well informed piano shopper with Fine's book in hand. And with these 2 golden rules burned into my brain by my Tech.
1) dont buy a piano that your not at least 90%sure of on the showroom floor
2) a pianos tone can ony be changed about 10%
But somehow after spending several days looking at pianos at the dealership, and after the salesman had given me so much time. (i think they make you feel indebted to them by following you around and talking on an on about and sort of BS) i found myself unsure and sitting in anguish on the bench. My reasoning mind was completely gone. i was in a state of dissociation. and so tired.
Then i walked over to him and said "Ill take it" And gave him $500 in earnest money that he didnt even ask for.
We did already have an agreement in place that i could have it at home for 3 days to make sure i wanted it and to have my personal tech look it over, thank god. Because i wouldnt have had the presence of mind to ask for it in THAT moment.

When i called my tech he said "so you like it all the way across the keyboard?" and i said "i guess the trebles could be brought down some." on his end of the line was complete silence. and a light bulb lit up. i knew i wasnt really sure of this piano at all. I had forgotten his 2 golden rules.(By the way it was a Petrof.)I cancelled the next morning. i was lucky and I got out of the deal and with my $500.
im sharing this because it can happen to anyone i think. we get under their spell somehow. So dont feel too bad about it happening to you.

what im wondering is if it might be possible to get one of the pianos you loved so much if you do it on a payment plan?
Also, i do think theres a good chance you can get most of your money back. i would indicate to the owner somehow that you will be spreading your wonderful experience as a customer of his dealership with your musical friends if he can help make you a happy customer. And that you think he runs a fine business and if you cant find the right piano on his showroom right now, you will be back to search again soon.
Just an idea. the dealerships are so competitive and their reputations so important that i think it might work.
Much, much luck with this, and by the way, i discovered just a week ago that i need lots of overtones too. im sticking with american pianos. Baldwin or Steinway.
_________________________
Gwyn

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#150680 - 09/24/05 05:42 AM Re: Schimmel help!
constance Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 4
Up at 5 -- not like me! I can't sleep! I must address this today.

Thank you once again for your posts. To answer your questions, I played the Nicklaus Schimmel special edition 6'3" and liked it, but couldn't possibly afford it. So I was taken to the regular 6'3" and told that it was essentially the same instrument. When it turned out I couldn't afford that one either, I was taken to the 6'. Apparently the 6' model is being discontinued, so I was able to get a special deal. I guess I ended up thinking that this was the best I could afford -- but I think there must be other pianos in my price range that have the more complex sound I am after.

Please know that I don't wish to denigrate the Schimmel sound. I know it is a quality instrument. (No doubt my hearing has been compromised from singing in a rock band when I'm not playing classical piano!) I actually love the treble and bass -- it's just the mid-range that I don't respond to. The room it's in has no curtains, although it does have an upholstered couch and chair. I was advised to put a rug down for the piano (I have hardwood floors). I tried moving the music stand... I think it's just not my instrument.

At the store I also tried the Yamahas, a Vogel, and an Estonia. I didn't really go for the Vogel. I remember telling the salesman that I liked the Estonia, but he only had one out and we didn't pursue it. What is your opinion of Estonia?

I liked the Yamahas as well, but there was something about the touch that didn't work for me. Also, I have heard that Yamahas are loud, and I wanted myself and my daughters to be able to play without restraint in our living room.

I fear I was also seduced by the Schimmel's exquisite case (polished mahogany with brass inlay and octagonal legs). When I started searching for a piano, I never imagined that would happen!

Now I am feeling both 'gun-shy' and 'under the gun.' I cannot be without a piano, and I'm worried if I ask for an exchange, the same thing may happen again -- I'll end up getting something home that is not right. I don't remember playing anything in the store that I really loved. If I manage to get a refund of some stripe, I will have no piano and will be under still more pressure at the next store to get something, just have a piano.

Justplay: yes, if only there were a trial period -- that would be so nice.

Well, wish me luck. I'll let you know what happens. And thank you again for taking the time to advise me and discuss my situation. It does make me feel I'm not alone!

-Constance

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#150681 - 09/24/05 07:14 AM Re: Schimmel help!
ntman2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Abingdon, Maryland
As has been mentioned numerous times: it is strictly up to the good will of the dealer if they will take it back or not. Good points have been made all around particularly about what actually constitutes a ‘used’ piano. Unless a piano is shipped to the customer directly out of the box it has already been played by an unknown number of people while sitting on the show room floor. As MahlerAdagio so aptly stated “Many pianos sits months and years before they're sold and the store still claims them as new. In fact, frequently a piano has been battered, played in concerts, lived in showrooms after showrooms, for months and year and still sell it as a "New" piano, just because it has not been sold before.” I agree whole heartedly. My wife tried out a Nicklaus Schimmel that was being used as a recital piano at a dealers ‘concert hall’ and still being advertised as ‘new’ and quite frankly I liked the sound of it so well that I would have gladly bought it as ‘new’. Another thing about pianos: when you find the exact tone you are looking for you’d better latch on to that exact piano since another piano of the same brand might not strike you as being ‘the one’.

I won’t repeat all the other good points already stated in this thread, however I do make one last point: just because a customer purchases an expensive piano that doesn’t preclude that same customer coming back in a few short years wanting to upgrade. If the dealer had already given that customer a hard time how can he expect to make another sale her?

Constance, here is a point not expressed by others yet: if this current dealer will not strike an acceptable deal with you, how about continuing your search and when you finally find the ‘one’ piano that you absolutely MUST have try bargaining with the new dealer to take your new Schimmel as a trade-in close to the price you paid minus a few thousand dollars? He can still sell it as a ‘barely’ used or even ‘new’ piano with a full warranty backed up by Schimmel (assuming that the Schimmel warranty is transferable). Pianos have such a long life span that a few weeks or even months in a customer’s home hardly seem worth branding it as ‘used’. Particularly when that same piano may have been sitting on the dealer’s floor for months and months or perhaps a year, pounded on by every passing customer and STILL sold as new.

Quite frankly I would have no qualms buying a piano such as yours at full price if I loved it even knowing that it sat in a customer’s home for a few weeks/months.

My two cents.
_________________________
My two cents -- Mason & Hamlin Model A

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#150682 - 09/24/05 09:53 AM Re: Schimmel help!
Justplay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 237
I think the whole concept of selling/buying a piano should change. It should be a well known fact that pianos change constantly and it is very possible that after getting it home, you may not like it. If everyone would have the opportunity to try a piano and if they didn't like it return it within 2 weeks and purchase another one or, get a refund less the fees. If, as a consumer, I was look at a returned a piano I too would pay full price and not consider it used. Pianos are not like cars. Cars will drive the same at the dealership as at home. PIANOS CHANGE, THERE SHOULD BE A TRIAL PERIOD!! IT's way too big an investment to roll the dice.

Constance, yes try the Estonia, but have the dealer prep it.

Good Luck

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#150683 - 09/24/05 11:15 AM Re: Schimmel help!
Paul Y Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1083
Loc: Nashua, NH
I believe that when a dealer sells and delivers a piano, the dealer considers that piano as theirs. Unless the customer carved-out a "trial period" deal (outside of the network of a Purchase Agreement), nearly 100% of the dealers would considered it "sold".

Having said that, most reputable dealers (and perhaps ALL reputable dealers) would gladly discuss an exchange. I believe the dealer could still sell the piano as "new" but fully explain the situation to the new customer. If the customer would consider another well-prepped instrument, pay the difference (if any) plus the pickup and delivery costs of the replacement piano, I don't think there would be a problem. This would make the customer happy and continue to promote good will regarding the treatment they received from the local dealer.

I trust Constantine will approach the dealer in this light. I truly believe the dealer will make her happy in the end.
_________________________
Retired Industry Professional

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#150684 - 09/24/05 11:35 AM Re: Schimmel help!
Steve Cohen Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10478
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
There are so many false assumptions here that I hardly know where to start.

MahlerAdagio, your posts on PW often take a decidedly pro-consumer and anti-dealer position. This bias is VERY apparent in this thread. You said:

“However, there are certainly moral obligation that won't hold up in court, but have much other hidden benefits that will never be seen by a dealer, were they to appreciate somebody who just bought a very expensive piano that they hate. Is that really the after taste that they want to leave behind on a customer, just because they won the sale and jackpoted a big fat commission and profit?

Now, what is the proper dealer's response? To keep the money, fat with their profit and commission, and say, "Too bad lady, should've thought of that before!". Or, perhaps show some mercy and recognize that Constance didn't intend to not like the piano, and, "Heck, I was a darn good salesperson to convince her"."

You have absolutely no idea as to the profit on this sale, yet you use inflammatory language and claim that the profits were “fat” and a jackpot for the dealership. The average piano dealer makes about 3.7% BEFORE taxes; about 3% after taxes (Source: NAMM 2005 IPR Report). In this particular sale, based on Constance’s description, I think she got a Schimmel SP182TEI that Ancott lists at $41,380. Based on the national average margin of 43%, the selling price would average over $36,000. Based on the “25% off list” rule of thumb many on PW use a “good deal” would have been about $30,600.

You go on to say:

"There are plenty of dealers out there who'd actually deliver and let sit a high priced piano at a potential buyers home, for him/her to have it live in their living room for a short while, and learn to see whether it's something they want. They then take it back if they're not interested."

On what do you base this statement? I know literally hundreds of dealers across the country. I can’t think of any that have such a policy on new, high-end grands, and only know of 2-3 that would do it on other pianos.

You continue:

"After all, it's a week old piano for goodness sakes. Many pianos sits months and years before they're sold and the store still claims them as new. In fact, frequently a piano has been battered, played in concerts, lived in showrooms after showrooms, for months and year and still sell it as a "New" piano, just because it has not been sold before. Is it really new? According to who, the dealer? But the physical piano is not new is it? Because a new piano is usually something that looks and sounds like new, with hammers and keys still in unused condition, instead of indentation in the hammers and scratches on the keys."

In most states the law defines an item as being “new” until it is sold the 1st time. It further requires any dealers to disclose “any material fact” in the history of the instrument such as prior rental, floor sample, etc. Legally in this case, were the dealership to take the piano back, they would be required to disclose the fact to any other potential buyer and the law very likely would consider that piano “used”.

You close with:

"So, ultimately, it goes back to the dealer. Would he/her ignore the fact that Constance is not at all happy with her piano, but that's not their problem anymore and tell her to sell it on ebay, since a contract is a contract, and there is absolutely no legal obligation for them as dealer? That's justice.

Or will there be enough sensitivity to know that this Constance was not really in her right frame of mind when she bought this, therefore, what can I do to make it right for her so she can feel content when she sleeps at night? Mercy.

Justice or Mercy?

What do you choose?"

Again, you use connotative terms making it sound like the dealer is merciless if they don’t hold Constance to her agreement. Yes, as a dealer I would try my best to work out a solution with Constance. But your rhetoric is way over the top. Ideally retailing of all products should be a win-win situation. Your one-sided arguments, lacking factual basis and connoting against dealers, exacerbates problems rather than helping move toward a good solution. I am, admittedly a "dealer advocate", however I strive to achieve a balance. You need to do the same, and lay off the inflamatory rhetoric.

Ntman2,

You have suggested that:

“Constance, here is a point not expressed by others yet: if this current dealer will not strike an acceptable deal with you, how about continuing your search and when you finally find the ‘one’ piano that you absolutely MUST have try bargaining with the new dealer to take your new Schimmel as a trade-in close to the price you paid minus a few thousand dollars? He can still sell it as a ‘barely’ used or even ‘new’ piano with a full warranty backed up by Schimmel (assuming that the Schimmel warranty is transferable).”

Trading the piano in to another dealership presents a different set of problems. Let’s say the new dealer allows $24,000 in trade for the Schimmel that allegedly sold for $28,000. To stay in business dealers need to make overhead on each sale. This would leave them with a piano that couldn’t be sold for more than they paid for it. Why would they “use up” one of their potential buyers on a sale with no margin. In this case, assuming that the piano traded for was of similar price (Constance is at the top of her budget), they would be WAY out-of-pocket on the new sale and make nothing on the sale of the Schimmel. Bottom line: Nice thought…but Constance need to work this out with the original dealership.

You go on to say:

“Quite frankly I would have no qualms buying a piano such as yours at full price if I loved it even knowing that it sat in a customer’s home for a few weeks/months.”

I contend that most shoppers would not see it your way.

Justplay,

While in-home trials ARE a good idea, with pianos there are a number of problems such as the fact that dealers are required to disclose that the piano was out on trail means they would have to discount those units returned; since they want the shopper to keep the instrument, full dealer prep would be done adding expense if not purchased; delivery costs are high, particularly on high-end grands; floorplan companies require payment in full when the piano leave the dealers location; etc.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#150685 - 09/24/05 01:06 PM Re: Schimmel help!
MahlerAdagio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 510
Steve,

Man, I feel the same way as you, which is, there are so many false information and lack of consumer perspective that I don't know where to begin. And I probably won't rebutt all your statements because it will be a discourse, but will do some.

It's interesting how you made comments that I am pro consumer and anti-dealer, yet your following rebuttals are precisely anti-consumer and pro-dealer. Why is that?

Well of course, we're all protecting our own turfs.

I am a consumer, and you're a dealer, I very much doubt that you'd suddenly change to be pro-consumer, as much as I would change to be in a disposition of pro-dealer.

You said,"You have absolutely no idea as to the profit on this sale, yet you use inflammatory language and claim that the profits were “fat” and a jackpot for the dealership."

Do you know how much profit was made at this sale? I don't think so. Then why do you supposed that you also know?

My assesments are made because I know the patterns of dealerships, and most of them would make as much money as they can. Is that a fair statement? Or should I believe otherwise?

Read this statement of Constance, again, Steve, "Looking back on my experience at the store, I realize I was talked into the purchase by a very skilled salesperson. It's embarrassing to admit, but I wasn't even planning to buy a piano that day; somehow, after about an hour in the store and playing most of the pianos in there, I found myself signing the dotted line."

Note the words, "talked into, very skilled salesperson, and I wasn't even planning to buy a piano."

What does this tell you?

It's a good evidence that, this very skilled salesperson not only played her violin to sell her a piano that she wasn't even going to buy, but do you think that's the end of it? No, I'm sure that she paid a very good pro-dealer price for it. Why do I suppose that? Because he saw a target he can manipulate and sure enough he took advantage of it, manipulate her into buying when she didn't intend. Does that sounds fair to you?

So, lets get the proof and ask Constance as to how much she paid for it, and settle this once and for all that she didn't get a good price as others who are better at negotiating would. Now, we must remember, the term a good deal depends on who got it, the consumer or the dealer and their perspective. A dealer can say Constance got a good deal, but an astute negotiator may say she can do better. Basing it on an average stated in a book or statistics as to what's a good deal, again, for somepeople, like me, the statistics are a very poor deal, because I am a business negotiator for myself, in real-estate and other business, but for some people who prefered a Saturn dealership of one price no haggle deal, that would be a marvelous deal for them when buying a piano like that, because they'd save more money that way due to lacking in technique of negotiation, then if they were to negotiate firmly. This is no bashing of Constance, by the way.

Constance, how much did you pay for your piano? Plus, how much is the retail?

Steve, your comments of this: "While in-home trials ARE a good idea, with pianos there are a number of problems such as the fact that dealers are required to disclose that the piano was out on trail means they would have to discount those units returned; since they want the shopper to keep the instrument, full dealer prep would be done adding expense if not purchased; delivery costs are high, particularly on high-end grands; floorplan companies require payment in full when the piano leave the dealers location; etc."

Notice that you mentioned "...full dealer prep would be done adding to expense if not purchased..." Well, this is a clear and absolute admission by you, as a dealer that prepping is an expense if not purchased. Which tells me that prepping is the last thing a dealer wants to do, unless it's purchased, and then make claim that as an added expense.

My friend, your responsibility as a dealer is that every piano should be prepped, not as a bonus for the customer. Therefore, if that piano was not purchased, it's supposed to be done anyway.

I akind it like this. The car dealer grumbles because a customer came back right after he purchased a car and about to drive off, and said,"Hey, how about the steering wheel that's missing on it?". Car salesman said, "Man, that's an added expense to us, so if were to give it to you, you can't take it back because we'll lose money on this sale".

Steve, you made it sound like prepping is a courtesy made to a customer, rather than a requirement, that most dealers don't fulfill, mostly because they can get away with it, due to unsuspecting piano consumers not really any the wiser to it. Many years ago, I was one of those customers.

So, would you consider a missing steering wheel that a car dealership decidedly would be an expense if not sold, as a good reason? Or, what would happened if a piano salesman says, "Well, strings on the piano is not included, because it's an expense for us." Does that sounds ridiculous? Why isn't it just as ridiculous for a piano not to be prepped?

Well, the reasons why piano dealers can't get away selling pianos without strings is that it's obviously would not make a sound. But, untold times would a piano be sold without prepping, something that's so crucial to a piano's quality to finally come out, regardless.

Therefore, the way you stated your statement really does testify that prepping is loss profits if not sold, even though, the truth is that it's a savings to you when it's done before it's sold so you won't have to pay for it to get done when it does gets sold. It's interesting how much dealers refuse to pay unless they really have to, and they mostly wait until it gets sold just in case they don't have to do it at all, for those customers who don't know any better, increasing more profits. Is this pro-consumer or pro-dealer?

So, Steve, your perspectives of a good deal, is completely dealer biased, as much as what my perspectives of a good deal is completely consumer biased. You can make all the statement in the world of a good deal, and I vice-versa, and we would not agree.

"In this particular sale, based on Constance’s description, I think she got a Schimmel SP182TEI that Ancott lists at $41,380. Based on the national average margin of 43%, the selling price would average over $36,000. Based on the “25% off list” rule of thumb many on PW use a “good deal” would have been about $30,600."

Rule of thumb. Who's rule, who's thumb? Try to use rule of thumb in professional negotiation, and you'd lose. Rules of thumbs are for those that needs to learn the basics of technique first, using that as a guide until they know how to power themselves to go beyond the national average and rules of thumbs. If dealers has their way, they'd want to abolish rules of thumbs because it helps guide the non-informed buyers out there to have something to lean on. But those who doesn't know rules of thumbs, they get taken in even more. But those who are informed, well, they couldn't careless of rules of thumbs and national averages.

Want proof? Well, try to sell a piano to a former dealer using the rule of thumbs. Because he knows the mark-ups, he'll return it using the rule of fists.

A good deal needs to be observed on a case by case basis, because a good deal to some is an awful deal to another. Again, how do I come to this conclusion? Well, back to the a former or current dealer being sold a piano at the best price you had given to a past customer in the history of your dealership. It will not be even close to being a good deal to that person.

The big question is, are you here as pro-dealer, or are you here as pro-consumer. Who are the majority of the audience here, in this forum? As for me, I am erring on the side of helping them, as consumers. And I would of course expect you to defend you position as dealership, because it's not profitable to you as pro-consumer.

"The average piano dealer makes about 3.7% BEFORE taxes; about 3% after taxes (Source: NAMM 2005 IPR Report)."

Steve, Steve. My background is in accounting. You can't hide behind these figures and say that piano dealers are only making 3% after taxes. You know that dealers cook the books so that they appear to have even lost money, in paper.

How many piano dealer's books are opened to the public and get scrutinized by the SEC? How many of them are a public company that forces them to open their books to the public? None!!!

Because of that, then it's so much more enticing for business owners to make a negative profit that year, and next, and the next after that, at least in the books. Or, so the IRS won't rise suspicion, make only a 3% profit margin.

C'mon, how many dealers can stay in business with only a 3% margin? It's much more profitable to put it in a CD account generating 5% or more without having to lift a finger, let alone work 6-7 days a week managing a store, cajoling buyers, battling competition and defending unhappy customers, for a measly 3%.

Steve, you know you earned much more than 3% profit. You know that other dealers earned more than 3% profit. But you preach as if you're just in the business of piano seling for the betterment of mankind, not for the money. Be very careful that you don't state falsehoods as to your income, unless you can prove it by opening up your books to an audit. I know Steve, because, remember, my background is in accounting.

Or how about this, lets have all dealers agree to open up their books to an an audit, the way public companies is required. This way it will reveal a more accurate stance of the real profits that are generated with piano dealers.

Will you Steve, volunteer to be the first one??

I can continue on to rebutt your other statements, but it would get even longer.

So, lets get back to the other question, "Are you here in this forum as pro-dealer, or pro-consumer?"

Of course you won't admit to being pro-dealer, but your statements allude to it strongly. At the same time, I understand, because you're a dealer and have to protect your own turf.

I think the members here would agree that if you're pro-dealer, which you adamently defends such, then I think you are preaching to the wrong audience, because I don't think there is a single member here that would be willing pay the highest dealer price. If there are, please explain.

In closing, I know that you commented to work with the buyer, which is honorable. I posted before, work to who's advantage, the dealer at Constance loss, or Constance at the dealer's loss?

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#150686 - 09/24/05 01:40 PM Re: Schimmel help!
Steve Cohen Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10478
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Mahler, you are hopeless. But I will respond to some of your more outrageous errors.

Piano dealers DO average ~3.7% before taxes. They ARE subject to audit, by the IRS. Your claim that:

"My background is in accounting. You can't hide behind these figures and say that piano dealers are only making 3% after taxes. You know that dealers cook the books so that they appear to have even lost money, in paper."

You are accusing the piano industry of "cooking" the books which is clearly illegal! As part of my consulting business I have audited many dealers operation. I have not found the fraud you accuse dealers of. You say your bnackground is in accounting. Are you an accountant? If so, do you encourage your clients to break the law?

I ask you, Do you have any FACTUAL basis that says that piano dealers make more than 3.7%. My source is the NAMMM Annual Report, which to date has never been disputed.

You go on to say:

"Or how about this, lets have all dealers agree to open up their books to an an audit, the way public companies is required. This way it will reveal a more accurate stance of the real profits that are generated with piano dealers.

Will you Steve, volunteer to be the first one??"

YES! Come up with a qualified auditor who agrees to keep my essential information confidential and I will submit my Financial Statements and corresponding tax returns. SIMPLY TO PROVE THAT YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE ABOUT OUR INDUSTRY.

As to your definition of a good deal: Are you claiming that the average deal made, which was at ~43% gross profit was unfair? If so, do you have any facts to support this?

You are one of those posters who know NOTHING about the piano business, but are anxious to apply generalizations to this industry which do NOT apply, and to use inflamatory rhetoric to confuse the issues.

Constaance is an adult. She is responsible for her actions. Dealers are not Svengali's who mezmorize and delude their clients as you imply. Yes, the dealer should try to work out a mutually agreeable solution for Constance, and since Schimmel is a little picky on who they give the line to, I think a good outcome is likely.

You however are simply another poster who likes to use generalizations and falsehoods, painting with an industry-wide brush, to make all dealers look like they comb their hair to cover their horns!

You won't last long here.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#150687 - 09/24/05 01:52 PM Re: Schimmel help!
Paul Y Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1083
Loc: Nashua, NH
Bravo Steve! Thank you for putting him in his collective place. Perhaps he thought you meant "3% markup" or "profit" on each piano sold. Just shows the ignorance of those "outside" of the industry.

I don't want to see Constance's post/thread go the way of a dealer profit/loss thread. We need to remind Mahler that these comments are shared to help this gal solve her Schimmel concern, and not to satisfy his thirst for proving a piano dealer's profit margins are grossly overstated.

Being a Yamaha/Schimmel/Vogel/Estonia dealer (all the brands she mentioned), I personally emailed her offering to help if she needed some guidance.

Hopefully, she'll report back some positive news before the day's done!
_________________________
Retired Industry Professional

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#150688 - 09/24/05 02:05 PM Re: Schimmel help!
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17777
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
****RRRRRIIIINGG! Okay, there's the bell, guys, so back to your corners, before we have Constance so sick of this controversy she goes out and buys one of those Costco pianos. \:\)

I think both sides have made some perceptive comments, mingled in with perhaps a few intemperate comments. And I think there is closer agreement than the past couple of exchanges would imply: EVERYBODY agrees there is no legal obligation for the dealer to take the piano back; EVERYBODY agrees that it may nonetheless be in the dealer's best interest to work out a compromise with Constance; EVERYBODY agrees that such a return will involve some amount of loss to the dealer, a loss that should be compensated by Constance. The part that's not clear is how much this loss is.

I will say that I am glad to have read all of this. It was very easy to say right away, "why just return the piano, of course!," but as this thread evolved, I came to realize that it just isn't as easy as that.

It seems to me that a lot of this could have been avoided if Constance, or any high-end piano shopper, had negotiated a trial period in the home in advance, so as to avoid officially "selling" the piano and therefore requiring it to be sold as used if returned. Steve outlines clearly the downside to the dealer of such a trial period, and again there should be some accommodation on the part of the customer to make it worth the dealer's while, e.g., paying a sufficient rental fee (including delivery charges) or agreeing to a higher purchase price.

And, of course, an even easier solution may be for all piano shoppers to leave their checkbooks at home when they shop, and adopt a rule of "I'm not buying unless I've played it on at least two different days and love it both times."
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#150689 - 09/24/05 02:16 PM Re: Schimmel help!
MahlerAdagio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 510
Steve,

Perhaps you're a very special dealer. It's interesting how upset you are at my statements, feeling that I've attacked you personally.

You're getting deeper into specific character attacks; me. It's so hard to rebutt not doing the same, so I am guilty of it too.

I've mentioned in a post before, if you're not guilty of these things, why are so you upset? It sounds like that if a news report on the 6 o'clock news reports that a gang of thieves was captured on camera and they were hispanic, then another hispanic person got upset and say, "How dare they accuse me of being a thief!!" Well this is no different than your reaction, when I make claims that some piano dealers do cook their books to make it so they don't show profit, and you react to me in much similar way as that innocent hispanic.

The interesting thing about it is that you, out of your own mouth have posted here in the past that you work your expenses to show no profits at the end of the year. Is that my imagination? If so, I apologise, if not, then are you denying it?

Are you saying that none of the numerous dealers in the piano industry have ever cooked their books? Do you think you expect me to believe that you are only making 3% profit?

You mentioned that you audited their operations, man, operations are very different then accounting.

Plus, did you work on behalf of the IRS and audited according to their rules of law?

Yes, of course it's from NAMM, but how did NAMM get their numbers? From the dealers, my friend. My goodness, and you claim that you know what you're talking about.

Why do you think the FDA has problems with drugs that now proved to be dangerous? It's because the studies and reports were mostly done by the drug companies themselves. Is is any surprise the drug companies supports themselves?

You mentioned that you're willing to open up your books providing that it's kept confidential. Why? You made statements that the industry only earns 3%, so what secrets do you need to keep? Public company's books are opened.

Like I said, you and I will never agree, and it sounds like that posts a problem with you, therefore your statement, "You won't last long here". Sounds like you're not happy with someone that's pro-consumer, and would prefer that I am eliminated. If you're strong Steve, you don't need to eliminate your opponents. The stronger are your opponents, the stronger you will become, if you do it right.

You accuse me of generalization, when I've never once, not once, ever said to include ALL dealers, yet, it's you that have taken it to be all dealers. And unless you stop burying your head and make claims that all piano dealers are innocent and good, then you won't ever grow as a dealer.

I am amazed to think that you're defending all dealerships to never be at all dishonest in anyways, including cooking the books. Now that's ignorance. Man, you should know better than that.

Somewhere on this forum are members who are know someone in the piano industry that misrepresented something, and for you to say that they're honest because you've audited their operations, and unless you've audited all the books (books, not operations)of all the dealers, well, it goes to show you're most definitely pro-dealer.

Anyways, this can go on and on, and it won't go anywhere.

Lets agree to disagree and still be friends, aye?

P.S. Subject to audit doesn't mean they're audited. We're all subject to audit. You know that audits are not welcomed in society, only neccesary by the government. Plus, we're all subject to get filthy rich, to get the American dream, because this is a free country, right? But most of us are not. There is a BIG difference.

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#150690 - 09/24/05 02:21 PM Re: Schimmel help!
MahlerAdagio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 510
 Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Y:
Bravo Steve! Thank you for putting him in his collective place. Perhaps he thought you meant "3% markup" or "profit" on each piano sold. Just shows the ignorance of those "outside" of the industry.

I don't want to see Constance's post/thread go the way of a dealer profit/loss thread. We need to remind Mahler that these comments are shared to help this gal solve her Schimmel concern, and not to satisfy his thirst for proving a piano dealer's profit margins are grossly overstated.

Being a Yamaha/Schimmel/Vogel/Estonia dealer (all the brands she mentioned), I personally emailed her offering to help if she needed some guidance.

Hopefully, she'll report back some positive news before the day's done! [/b]
Paul,

No I didn't mean 3% on each piano. Therefore, am I still ignorant? I understand gross profit and net profit, it was taught in my first semester and in any first semester of any accounting school of repute.

Look, show us just how very special industry you are in that's so different than all the industry in the world combined. You're a retailer, nothing more my friend. It will take an accountant less then 1 hour to read the books and understand the financial profit and loss of your store, or Steve's or any other. Unless your store has hundreds of employees and are worth hundreds of millions or into the billions, you're just a mom and pop industry. And most, if not all piano dealers are nothing more than moms and pops. But you make it sound like you're elite and special and untouchable and know the secrets of the universe better than the rest of us.

I did monthly reports for a financial company that has figures over a billion, bigger company that moms and pops by a wide margin.

Financial reports are nothing more than variations on the same theme. The piano industry is NOT and original composition, an island unto itself in world of retailing. But you and Steve sure makes it sound like so.

Not wanting to get you involved in a spirited discussion between pro-dealer and pro-consumer, but it's obvious why you're on Steve's side; you're in the industry.

Will dracula succeed in convincing anybody here on this forum that he doesn't need blood?. (Paul, I'm NOT implying that you're dracula.) So, will a dealer here succeed in convincing anybody here on this forum that he is pro-consumer?

Enough said.

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#150691 - 09/24/05 02:28 PM Re: Schimmel help!
MahlerAdagio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 510
 Quote:
Originally posted by Monica Kern:
****RRRRRIIIINGG! Okay, there's the bell, guys, so back to your corners, before we have Constance so sick of this controversy she goes out and buys one of those Costco pianos. \:\)

I think both sides have made some perceptive comments, mingled in with perhaps a few intemperate comments. And I think there is closer agreement than the past couple of exchanges would imply: EVERYBODY agrees there is no legal obligation for the dealer to take the piano back; EVERYBODY agrees that it may nonetheless be in the dealer's best interest to work out a compromise with Constance; EVERYBODY agrees that such a return will involve some amount of loss to the dealer, a loss that should be compensated by Constance. The part that's not clear is how much this loss is.[/b]
Monica,

Thank you for your post. Because I see that you actually read it. \:\)

Steve thinks the earlier post didn't indicate that I am not totally ignorant of the dealer's unfavorable situation were Constance just to return it without any recourse of some sort, perhaps a bill for something or other, which I indicated.

After all, I am here only for the purpose of helping Constance, which I also indicated wasn't all innocent with her poor and hurried buying decision, which she fully admits. So, it's not a bash to Constance. (OK, Constance?)

Anyways, thanks for the bell, it was a bit more heated than intended.

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#150692 - 09/24/05 03:37 PM Re: Schimmel help!
constance Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 4
Wow. It looks like I opened up a can of worms... It's good to see both sides of the issue.

I'm still thinking this over. I have three choices: try to get a refund, which I gather is bound to be partial; try to get an exchange; or hang onto the Schimmel.

I don't think it's a great idea for me to try to get a refund. I donated my other piano, and do not have another one lined up to buy. So, I would lose money and be left without a piano.

I don't know that I would be much happier with any other piano from that store. So it probably doesn't make sense to go through everything I would have to go through to do an exchange.

Today I went to play some Mason & Hamlins (something I'd been planning to do before buying a piano). I loved them -- maybe the "American" sound is for me. Naturally I can't afford one, but... I could keep the Schimmel for now (I do not hate it, although it is definitely not The One), and see it as one more step toward owning that perfect piano. In a year, or two (or more!), I could look at finances again and see if it would be possible to sell the Schimmel and buy the piano I really want.

I got myself into this situation, and now I will deal with it. I have certainly learned a lot from what happened. I have more or less decided not to become someone's headache over this, but-- respectfully to all you dealers out there-- maybe you can learn from this situation too!

Thank you all once again for all your thoughts, concerns, and encouragement. It has helped so much.

-Constance

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#150693 - 09/24/05 04:23 PM Re: Schimmel help!
Steve Cohen Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10478
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
1st, we are not friends. Nor would I be interested in befriending anyone who distorted the facts so systematically. Nor one who cleverly spun his writing to connote and slur. To be clear as to what I refer to, I quote you [in “ “]:

“I've mentioned in a post before, if you're not guilty of these things, why are so you upset? It sounds like that if a news report on the 6 o'clock news reports that a gang of thieves was captured on camera and they were hispanic, then another hispanic person got upset and say, "How dare they accuse me of being a thief!!" Well this is no different than your reaction, when I make claims that some piano dealers do cook their books to make it so they don't show profit, and you react to me in much similar way as that innocent hispanic.”

As everyone here knows I usually don’t talk about my operation, but about the piano industry. You have made broad statements about an industry I am proud to be in and have been proud to be in all my life. I often have, and will continue to present a balanced view despite clowns like you who slur the industry with innuendo (like the “big fat commission and profit”, “won the sale…jackpoted” remarks among others).

“The interesting thing about it is that you, out of your own mouth have posted here in the past that you work your expenses to show no profits at the end of the year. Is that my imagination? If so, I apologise, if not, then are you denying it?”

Either post my quote or apologize.

“Are you saying that none of the numerous dealers in the piano industry have ever cooked their books?” And,

“I am amazed to think that you're defending all dealerships to never be at all dishonest in anyways, including cooking the books. Now that's ignorance. Man, you should know better than that.”

No, and I never said nor implied that. Every industry has those who operate outside the norms. This is a total, obvious and intentional distortion of my position.

“Do you think you expect me to believe that you are only making 3% profit?”

Yes. I am saying that, as an average, after taxes Net Profit After Taxes was about 3%. And I offer proof. If you have FACTS to dispute that, post them. The fact that you would choose not to believe it doesn’t change the facts.

“Yes, of course it's from NAMM, but how did NAMM get their numbers? From the dealers my friend. My goodness, and you claim that you know what you're talking about.”

NAMM is one of the most respect industry trade organizations in the US. Those who have deep knowledge of the basis for their industry statistics respect their accuracy. They are calculated so that dealers can accurately compare their operations with others in similar circumstances. Inflated or “cooked” figures would negate their value. Your statement slurs NAMM and again, I do not make friends with those who spin your kind of crap. And, yes, unlike you, I DO know what I am talking about.

“Sounds like you're not happy with someone that's pro-consumer, and would prefer that I am eliminated. If you're strong Steve, you don't need to eliminate your opponents. The stronger are your opponents, the stronger you will become, if you do it right. “

I’m not happy with someone who distorts the facts about our industry and is sanctimonious about it! Stop doing that you’ll be welcome here.

“Somewhere on this forum are members who are know someone in the piano industry that misrepresented something, and for you to say that they're honest because you've audited their operations, and unless you've audited all the books (books, not operations) of all the dealers, well, it goes to show you're most definitely pro-dealer.”

I typically examine their Financial Statements and their operations. And for over 10 years I taught small business management at our local community college, including how to understand and use accurate Financial Statements. Also, I DO present dealer perspectives here, but with balance, seeking a win-win outcome.


"You mentioned that you're willing to open up your books providing that it's kept confidential. Why? You made statements that the industry only earns 3%, so what secrets do you need to keep? Public company's books are opened."

Again, you show your distortions. No small businessman in a competetive marketplace would open their books to their competetors. You KNOW this, yet you still made this comment. I see how you react when someone calls your bluff.

“Lets agree to disagree and still be friends, aye?”

No, let’s not. At least not yet.

Now, get out of the way and let us help Constance and her dealer to optimize the solution.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#150694 - 09/24/05 05:35 PM Re: Schimmel help!
MahlerAdagio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 510
I see more and more that I am a real threat to you, don't I? So, until I behave to protect your interest, then, only then will you accept me in this forum.

Man, I am not welcomed here? By you? Do you have the right not to welcome me here because I tend to be pro-consumer?

You distorted my statements about NAMM. Yes, of course NAMM is respected. NAMM gets their statistics figures from people like you, the dealers. The government gets their figures from the businesses. But it the businesses doesn't report accurately, then the figures are not accurate. It doesn't reflect on the institution as not being accurate.

NAMM gathers data from the industry's reporting to them. They do not collect and process data from individual store's IRS tax return. They exercise good faith that the reports they receive is accurate. They don't care about the "illegal tax shelters" each dishonest store hides under, which the Feds are currently busting one at a time, which I'm sure they'd be interested to see the tax shelters that your store may be exposed to. If you're innocent in this, then there is not need to get upset. Like I said before, if you're not guilty of being the actual thief, why grief about it?

FDA, they didn't know the reports presented to them are not accurate, therefore, they give approvals of drugs based on the reports and studies. Am I now slamming the FDA? Perhaps I should.

Darn FDA, who doesn't know how to protect us from dangerous drugs, causing deaths left, right and center, or at least a maimed life thanks to the drugs that left people's lives changed for the worse. I can't believe that 3 common drugs last year had hidden dangers that we're no aware of. How dare you approve phen-fen when it turned out to be a suicide pill..........etc, etc. What else have you passed that we're not aware of it being dangerous? You are killing us out of the power of these drug companies that finance your office, which is a conflict of interest to the detriment of the public at large, etc, etc, etc.

There, I just slammed FDA.

Can you see the difference of my words of FDA that, as you called it inflammatory, and slurs to NAMM and the piano industry.

It's obvious that you love your dealership and selling pianos, that's because there is a gain from it. Believe me, you'd be out a long time ago if you're only earning 3%. By your own admission that dealers gives themselves nice bonuses so the store won't show as much profits. Are you the only one that does that?

It looks like you don't audit the companies you "monitor", because examining the financial statements is NOT auditing. Somehow you sounded very heroic when you stated in a prior post that you audited piano stores. Man you got me scared there and thought may be you did know what you're talking about. It appears that exaggerations are your motto.

Now, I have to find that statement again. Here is something that you recently made, July 16, 2005.

"It is true that often the owner can take bonuses to minimize their tax liabilities, but they should rightfully earn income from their investment."

You got me with the quote about showing profits as nil. I can't find it, and searching your many posts would take a very long time. But I will search it. In the meantime, because I can't prove it yet, I will apologise.

"Again, you show your distortions. No small businessman in a competetive marketplace would open their books to their competetors. You KNOW this, yet you still made this comment. I see how you react when someone calls your bluff".

I think I caught your bluff, Steve. You have never intended to open your books, excuses of competitive markets, oh, C'mon, are you more competitive than Dell, Compaq & HP? Are you more competitive than GM and Ford? Are you bigger and more powerful then MCI and ATT? Do you want me to continue? What about Delta and Southwest? 20th Century Fox and Sony? I can go on and on.

These companies have their books opened, but they're a lot more powerful and competitive than the moms and pops piano dealers. They have a LOT more at stake. They don't use your excuse of "competitive marketplace" as a reason not to open their books. EVERYTHING is out in the open when it comes to their financial balance. Including how much the CEO earned. How about you, will you at least reveal how much you earned last year? Hmmmm, I suspect that you won't and create some sorts of excuse for it.

Anyways, this is getting long and tiring. It's no use to on keep going, because you and I will continue to disagree, that you're pro-dealer, which I appreciate you finally admitted, and I am pro-consumer, which I freely and openly admit.

In the beginning, I wasn't dealer bashing, but it turned out to be, that, if there is a defense made, it must be because an attack was perceived. If one is not guilty, why would they try to defend themselves, such as you?

I accept all the dealers here will hate my guts. Because I am not pro-dealer, so what do I expect?

Regardless, whether you and I agree or not, which we don't, I still regard you as a human being that I can respect nonetheless. I am not your enemy, nor any dealer's enemy.

I do know that, because I have been defrauded by a piano dealer in a major way, where consumer protection got involved, and now a legal battle is being armed, into the tens of thousands, then if I were to be able to help one more person from being defrauded, then it's worth it.

Don't go into tangents now that I am accusing you of defrauding your customers. Because there has been so much twisted interpretations of my comments since my second post on this topic.

Read Monica's post about the meaning and interpretation of that second post of mine. She understood it very clearly.

Whereas you and I, Steve, will NEVER see eye to eye. You can call me all you want to quench your anger. I've tried on this post to not attack your character, and I may have failed, even miserably. If you should continue your character attack as you had, and have others join you, the more power to you and others, and rather then continue to defend, I just say, alright, you know what you're talking about, and I don't and just finish at that.

Yes, I'll get out of your way, since I'm obviously in the way of your "3%" profits. (Not including bonuses).

You win. OK?

Too much time wasted arguing here, and I'm tired of wasting more time.

Constance, good luck with your piano situation. May you work things out and find a piano that you're going to enjoy for a very long time. Which is after all, what I'd wish for you.

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#150695 - 09/24/05 05:38 PM Re: Schimmel help!
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Constance, I'd at least talk to the dealer so that you can keep your options open. Why not go back and play the Nicklaus Schimmel special edition 6'3 again to see if it IS the one and see what it would cost to do an exchange. As someone suggested here, maybe working out a payment plan would make it work for you.

PS: I did a lot of side by side comparisons of Schimmels and Estonias, and liked the Schimmels much better. My experience was much like yours - I couldn't afford the new Schimmel I wanted, and I thought long and hard about an Estonia but it just didn't do it for me. Granted, this is all very subjective.

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#150696 - 09/24/05 05:46 PM Re: Schimmel help!
Steve Cohen Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10478
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Shades of Joe McCarthy!

The competition I am concerned with is Jordan-Kitts Music, Rick Jones Pianos, Buddy Parker's fine operation. Therein lies a basic flaw to your thinking. You think the piano industry is like the FDA, HP, MCI, GM, Ford...that your analogies are, well...analogies. They are not.

You are ignorant of the facts. The more you rant the worse it gets.

My offer still stands. And NAMMs figures are very representative.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#150697 - 09/24/05 05:49 PM Re: Schimmel help!
MahlerAdagio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 510
 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Cohen:
Shades of Joe McCarthy!

The competition I am concerned with is Jordan-Kitts Music, Rick Jones Pianos, Buddy Parker's fine operation. Therein lies a basic flaw to your thinking. You think the piano industry is like the FDA, HP, MCI, GM, Ford...that your analogies are, well...analogies. They are not.

You are ignorant of the facts. The more you rant the worse it gets.

My offer still stands. And NAMMs figures are very representative. [/b]
Steve,

You had won!!!

Rejoice in your victory, instead of kicking a man when he is down.

Aren't you also tired?

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#150698 - 09/24/05 05:57 PM Re: Schimmel help!
Steve Cohen Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10478
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Yes. Goodnight.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#150699 - 09/24/05 07:58 PM Re: Schimmel help!
NorthAmerican Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/03
Posts: 340
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Constance:

You won’t like it, but I have to say it: I am almost totally unsympathetic to your situation.

There has been much discussion here about what a dealer should or should not do to make you less unhappy, but I suggest that you, too, had a responsibility: to be an informed consumer, to the extent possible, and then to buy or not buy on that basis.

You say that you are not pleased with the sound of your piano, and in fact had "even tried Schimmels in the past and not been overwhelmed with the sound." You weren’t planning to buy a piano that day, but were "talked into the purchase by a very skilled salesperson." You somehow found yourself signing on the dotted line. You "want and need" singing overtones, but you bought a piano that didn’t have them.

No salesman, no matter how skillful, can manipulate a pen so that it produces your signature.

The quotes above were from your first post. In response to other posts, you seem to show a reluctance to settle for anything reasonable; for example, with respect to an exchange, you say that you're not sure that any other piano from that dealership would suit you.

I think that as adults we have to live with the consequences of our actions, and I think that you should look at your actions, not those of the dealer or of the skilled salesperson, and live with yours.

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#150700 - 09/24/05 09:08 PM Re: Schimmel help!
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10362
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Mahler's and Steve's posts are a useless tangent in this thread. Gentlemen, please confine your conflict to private messages. Each of you feels aggrieved and each of you feels the need to respond. Each response carries us further from the point of this discussion. Fortunately, this has been a one-on-one duel, unlike some other threads which degenerate into multiple-car pileups.

Axtremus,

Might I ask that the brawl here be removed from the thread? No one has cursed or thrown mud at someone's parents ...yet, but the point-counterpoint about dealer profit, and pro-consumer vs pro-dealer is quite irrelant to Constance or to anyone else here.

David F
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#150701 - 09/24/05 09:08 PM Re: Schimmel help!
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
I think she's recognized that NA. But, still, with a purchase of this magnitude, both she and the dealer have an interest in seeing to her being a happy consumer in the end.

Steve and Mahler, cut the feud. We all know where you both stand. Pretty please. \:\) Sometimes letting the other one have the last word makes yours all the more poignant.

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#150702 - 09/24/05 09:53 PM Re: Schimmel help!
MahlerAdagio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 510
 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
Mahler's and Steve's posts are a useless tangent in this thread. Gentlemen, please confine your conflict to private messages. Each of you feels aggrieved and each of you feels the need to respond. Each response carries us further from the point of this discussion. Fortunately, this has been a one-on-one duel, unlike some other threads which degenerate into multiple-car pileups.

Axtremus,

Might I ask that the brawl here be removed from the thread? No one has cursed or thrown mud at someone's parents ...yet, but the point-counterpoint about dealer profit, and pro-consumer vs pro-dealer is quite irrelant to Constance or to anyone else here.

David F [/b]
Piano Dad,

I appreciate that it may not be revelant to you, but Constance has indicated, "It's good to see both sides of the issue".

Do you speak for Constance as to whether it's revelant to her or not? Plus, do you speak for all the thousands of members on this forum of the same?

Why are you so closed minded that there are others who may benefit from learning both sides of a point of view, since this forum is not for your taste of topic preference only.

Furthermore, the argument had closed anyway.

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#150703 - 09/24/05 09:58 PM Re: Schimmel help!
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10362
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Mahler,

Perhaps you don't recognize the extreme tact that Constance employed \:D

David F
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#150704 - 09/24/05 10:16 PM Re: Schimmel help!
MahlerAdagio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 510

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#150705 - 09/24/05 10:17 PM Re: Schimmel help!
MahlerAdagio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 510
 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
Mahler,

Perhaps you don't recognize the extreme tact that Constance employed \:D

David F [/b]
David,

You know, I have to apologise to you and everybody else here if I have offended them. Since last year, when I had problems with a local Yamaha dealer, where fraud was committed, I have a bad after taste. It has caused much anger that they can be so brazen to lie and defraud. Don't want to get into the details, but how would you like to be sold a used piano which the owner said was brand new? Then admitted to consumer protection,"I didn't know it was used".

Right now, we're preparing a major legal lawsuit, which will be at least $50,000 of money on the table. If they want to fight it, then so be it, I have a strong evidence, a recorded conversation of the fraud. Lets see how they'd defend that.

Ever since then, any tone of pro-dealership gets my nerves going.

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#150706 - 09/24/05 10:23 PM Re: Schimmel help!
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10362
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Mahler,

Thanks. Everyone says things that in hindsight they wish they hadn't. Not everyone admits to it!

I'm on the consumer side of the market just like you. I have run into dealers who I immediately understood were using tactics I deplore. On the other hand I have spent a fair amount of time with dealers who were both knowledgeable and considerate. The human condition presents many aspects.

I think Monica summed up the situation Constance faces quite well. Now we wait to see how things develop.

Best,

David F
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#150707 - 09/24/05 10:31 PM Re: Schimmel help!
Stevester Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/03
Posts: 2851
Loc: New Jersey
I agree with kathyk, at the very least have a talk with the dealer.

I am sure you have a very nice piano and this sounds a little like buyer remorse but there is no reason you should not feel comfortable with the purchase. Both you and the dealer should walk away from the deal happy.

Until Monday when you can call, spend some time playing and get to know this piano a little better. Gosh, I wish I had a new 6' Schimmel!
_________________________
"The true character of a man can be determined by witnessing what he does when no one is watching".

anon

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